Schilling's Green Monster Games

[schild]

Suffice it to say that I'm big on learning from the past.

I know, and that's why I went off on you. Curt seems to be looking straight at the gift horse, punching it and saying 'fuck you pal, EQ2 was the tits.'

[Nebu]

I know, and that's why I went off on you. Curt seems to be looking straight at the gift horse, punching it and saying 'fuck you pal, EQ2 was the tits.'

I guess my point is that there is no game so far... anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt.  You know this, so I'm speaking in general more than anything. 

It's his cash.  If he wants to make something derivative, it's his call.  Would you do differently?  Sure.  Maybe this will motivate you to get the cash to make a game the likes you'd be proud of.

[Musashi]

Does anyone remember a 3D chess game, very old, 80's old, that was fantasy/demon based? It was so big (at that time) that I had to uninstall things and install it when I wanted to play?

Do you mean Archon?  God I loved that game.

[snip]

The best thing about that game was that when you attacked the other pieces, your dude moved his stick or whatever.  It may seem crazy now, but back in the day we were all like, "Holy shit - they're really fighting!"

[Margalis]

Battle Chess?

Anyway I do agree that MMO devs should be familiar with video games in general. So much of typical MMOs is years a decade behind other genres. In particular combat. Even if you are doing standard auto-attack and die rolls it can at least LOOK good. I mean who does WOW combat look worse than Final Fight? (Which I believe came out in '91)

At least make it LOOK like I'm hitting the enemy and they are reacting and vice-versa. That's what people liked about the panty-shot fan-service game Schild posted up recently, it looks like actual fighting.

This is generally something that PC games don't do well, third person fighting usually looks pretty bad on PC games but it's well past time for them to catch up.

[schild]

That's what people liked about the panty-shot fan-service game Schild posted up recently, it looks like actual fighting.

It's a PS3 game, the bar is set higher by default. DCUO devs should look closely at that game also.

Also, before anyone lambastes me. I'm not saying I'm the gift horse. Rather, gaming is. The history of gaming is a cheap investment when you're making a game. Someone should compile a list of 100 games developers should be forced to play and why. Not me of course, I'm far too lazy and it wouldn't bring in a paycheck. ^_^ Or maybe I could. I don't know.

[Musashi]

That's what people liked about the panty-shot fan-service game Schild posted up recently, it looks like actual fighting.

It's a PS3 game, the bar is set higher by default. DCUO devs should look closely at that game also.

Also, before anyone lambastes me. I'm not saying I'm the gift horse. Rather, gaming is. The history of gaming is a cheap investment when you're making a game. Someone should compile a list of 100 games developers should be forced to play and why. Not me of course, I'm far too lazy and it wouldn't bring in a paycheck. ^_^ Or maybe I could. I don't know.

You should.  Cross reference the list by genre for accessibility.  Also make sure you thoroughly explain why.  'Cause maybe I disagree, and can skip a couple.  Knowing why I should play them is at least as important as playing them.

[Nebu]

Someone should compile a list of 100 games developers should be forced to play and why. Not me of course, I'm far too lazy and it wouldn't bring in a paycheck. ^_^ Or maybe I could. I don't know.

That someone should be you.  Hell, narrow it down to 20.  I think a list like that would be an excellent read for any gamer and you have the writing talent to draw them in. 

[schild]

Goddamnit. My new hell.



It begins.

[Nebu]

Delegate man, delegate.  I'm sure you could get some great lists from people.  Just create a new thread named "The 25 games all developers should play".  I bet you'd get some damn fine input from the red names here.

[Musashi]

 

[schild]

25 games isn't enough. I could shit out 25 games from the last year most people didn't notice and made some interesting design decisions. 100 Games will be hard enough. I want this to be a list of 100 games designers should have fucking played or they shouldn't be in design. A list that will embarrass. I'm out for blood.

[Margalis]

If you are going to do this you should include bad games as well, sometimes those are more worth playing from a learning perspective. And games that did interesting things. Don't just make it a list of good games.

Although in general I'd say it's more important to not re-invent from the wheel from a development perspective. If you are making any game chances are 95% has been done before, which means you have plenty to copy from. That's what bugs me so much about MMORPG combat, hand-to-hand fighting has been around forever, it shouldn't be hard to make it look and feel good.

[schild]

It's not going to be a list of good or bad. My opinion does not play into this. It would get in the way of science.

[Cheddar]

I am beginning to like this Curt guy.  He needs to start posting outside this little thread!   

[MahrinSkel]

Assuming Curt is still paying any attention, I will mention the elephant in the room: Shadowbane.  One of the things the Shadowbane team eventually realized was a mistake was actively courting the hard-core PvP crowd from UO, when they became disaffected by the Trammel release in UO:R.  Since it overlapped heavily with griefers and exploiters, it gave them a core community that was actively and mutually hostile with the rest of their market.  When people heard buzz about SB consistantly coming from people they considered to be assholes, acting like assholes, with the Wolfpack team catering to them, they assumed it was a game made by assholes, for assholes.  I was promoting another PvP oriented game at the time, and I picked some very public fights with the Wolfpack team both to build buzz and to make it clear that Camelot was PvP, but not the kind of PvP that attracted assholes.  It worked out rather well for us, not so well for SB and Wolfpack (although there are certain companies I still can't even consider trying to work for).

Your core community is your most powerful marketing tool, and the most personal face of your branding.  Build it around FoH, and everyone who dislikes that notorious group and the playing philosophy they espouse will assume your game is not for them.

--Dave

[naum]

APBA baseball was something I wasted thousands of hours on as a kid.

My brothers, friends all played lots of APBA, Strat-O-Matic (football & hockey too) as well as games I created from statistics in the Sunday sports page together…

Have attempted at various points to bring a fantasy type game with RPG elements to the internets and have projects at various states of completion too…

[Sairon]

You know, I would be really interested in a list of interesting games to play in the name of science. I'd gladly shove the list down Tarsiers game designers for some impressions as well. Also, I recall curt mentioning a few pages back that he's not in fact in charge of design.

[schild]

Also, I recall curt mentioning a few pages back that he's not in fact in charge of design.

It's hard to say:

So I am sitting here at 38 on a Saturday, just finished walking the floor and seeing the latest Copernicus stuff in the works and again realizing how valuable the years of gaming experience are to me as I try and help steer this massive plodding thing that is it's own world. I also realize that I am so damn lucky and God blessed to be able to experience this stuff on a daily basis.

I think my personal attachment to the IP, since it started in my head, and to every single person in this 38 Family, will always be the reason behind me not 'turning the other cheek' when a prudent and smarter person might.

Bolded the important part. Also, it's his money. He may not be lead designer, but it's success relies on his ability as a designer, whether he likes it or not.

[LC]

Assuming Curt is still paying any attention, I will mention the elephant in the room: Shadowbane.  One of the things the Shadowbane team eventually realized was a mistake was actively courting the hard-core PvP crowd from UO, when they became disaffected by the Trammel release in UO:R.  Since it overlapped heavily with griefers and exploiters, it gave them a core community that was actively and mutually hostile with the rest of their market.  When people heard buzz about SB consistantly coming from people they considered to be assholes, acting like assholes, with the Wolfpack team catering to them, they assumed it was a game made by assholes, for assholes.  I was promoting another PvP oriented game at the time, and I picked some very public fights with the Wolfpack team both to build buzz and to make it clear that Camelot was PvP, but not the kind of PvP that attracted assholes.  It worked out rather well for us, not so well for SB and Wolfpack (although there are certain companies I still can't even consider trying to work for).

Your core community is your most powerful marketing tool, and the most personal face of your branding.  Build it around FoH, and everyone who dislikes that notorious group and the playing philosophy they espouse will assume your game is not for them.

--Dave

I hate to break it to you, but that's not the reason Shadowbane failed. It failed because it was a bug ridden incomplete pile of shit. It was nothing like the image painted by WP for all those years. The only thing that worked (somewhat) as promised was the city building system. It was like buying a broken TV, and being asked to wait a few years until they can figure out how to fix it.

Camelot was not what I consider PVP. More like "PVP lite". It's a PVE game at heart with a PVP component that you can go play from time to time. I guess it was a moderate success.

[Righ]

I hate to break it to you, but that's not the reason Shadowbane failed. It failed because it was a bug ridden incomplete pile of shit.

I'd love to agree with you, because it certainly was a bug ridden pile of shit. But for every ten people who quit and said it was because of 'sb.exe' crashes, nine of them were actually quitting because they couldn't be arsed playing the game every fucking minute of every day just to prevent unwashed students from wiping out everything they had 'achieved'. There are plenty of fucking abysmally coded crapfests that are popular. However, to be popular, they have to cater to people with something less than all the time in the world to play them.

[Calandryll]

I hate to break it to you, but that's not the reason Shadowbane failed. It failed because it was a bug ridden incomplete pile of shit. It was nothing like the image painted by WP for all those years. The only thing that worked (somewhat) as promised was the city building system. It was like buying a broken TV, and being asked to wait a few years until they can figure out how to fix it.

Camelot was not what I consider PVP. More like "PVP lite". It's a PVE game at heart with a PVP component that you can go play from time to time. I guess it was a moderate success.

SB's technical issues certainly didn't help, but Dave is absolutely right about the core community affecting your image. Your pre-launch community can set just as strong of a tone as your marketing and community messaging. In some cases, even stronger. Who you communicate with and when you communicate should be part of a larger plan. I'm not saying it's the case in this situation, but all too often I see developers posting about their product on forums because they've become popular places for develoeprs to post and because they enjoy posting, rather than because it's a "good" place to post and the posts are part of a larger communications plan for their game to succeed.

[LC]

But for every ten people who quit and said it was because of 'sb.exe' crashes, nine of them were actually quitting because they couldn't be arsed playing the game every fucking minute of every day just to prevent unwashed students from wiping out everything they had 'achieved'.

That was among their broken promises. I did say "incomplete" in my post. It could have been the biggest carebear fagfest ever created, but it still would have failed with a similar launch. You can't blame the failure of Shadowbane on the hardcore pvp community.

[Tmon]

That was among their broken promises. I did say "incomplete" in my post. It could have been the biggest carebear fagfest ever created, but it still would have failed with a similar launch. You can't blame the failure of Shadowbane on the hardcore pvp community.

Sure you can, there were plenty of people who never even bought the game because of the hard core PVP community and the way they were catered to.  None of the five or six people I know who were playing MMOs when SB came out even considered buying it because they assumed that it was going to be full of the same fucktards who made pre-trammel UO such a fun and enjoyable place to play.  I'm willing to be that the whole Play to Crush! thing cost more subs than SB.exe.

[Venkman]

The perception of a game riddled with assholes was just a public symptom.

By default SB's playerbase was always going to be niche. People do not want always-on accountable PvP en masse. That probably made the game more narrow than any other single thing. Once you have the narrowness, then the player count gets chipped away by SB.exe, perception of/encounters with assholes, and lack of content.

I'd also love to know just how much the allure of PvP contributed to DAoC's early success. I always got the impression that the biggest bump at the time came from it having launched playable at all and it not being SOE.

[LC]

Sure you can, there were plenty of people who never even bought the game because of the hard core PVP community and the way they were catered to.  None of the five or six people I know who were playing MMOs when SB came out even considered buying it because they assumed that it was going to be full of the same fucktards who made pre-trammel UO such a fun and enjoyable place to play.  I'm willing to be that the whole Play to Crush! thing cost more subs than SB.exe.

So how does not making a game you like equal failure? Thats like saying a game marketed as "the ultimate sci-fi game" will be a failure because people who only like fantasy games won't play it.

[Triforcer]

Can't we just agree that everything about Shadowbane was wrong and that it all contributed to a black hole of suck? 

[LC]

Can't we just agree that everything about Shadowbane was wrong and that it all contributed to a black hole of suck? 

I can go along with that.

[Strazos]

What ever happened with Schild's last list anyway?

Yes, I'm bringing it up; I like looking at graphs and lists of fun things. 

[Teleku]

Schild, out of curiosity, out of all the game developers who have created all of the amazing/revolutionary games you love, how many do you think actually know the "the History of Gaming" as well as you do?  Or have played such a wide variety?  IMO, the number is going to be very small.  That didn't stop them from creating amazing games.

You don't need to be as big of an art fag douche elitist as you are to make a good game (and I mean that with ALL the respect in the world).  You need to stop frothing so much  .

Having said that, make your god damn list, so I have a nice long list of games to download and play when I get bored.   

[UnSub]

I'm impressed by Schilling's list of games - he's been playing a long time.

And yes, the "100 Games Developers Should Have Played" would be an interesting project to get off the ground.

[schild]

Schild, out of curiosity, out of all the game developers who have created all of the amazing/revolutionary games you love, how many do you think actually know the "the History of Gaming" as well as you do?  Or have played such a wide variety?  IMO, the number is going to be very small.  That didn't stop them from creating amazing games.

While there's no way to tell, I would wager that the best games DO come from people who have played the majority of games that came before them.

You don't need to be as big of an art fag douche elitist as you are to make a good game (and I mean that with ALL the respect in the world).  You need to stop frothing so much  .

When I stop getting fed bullshit about how awesome shit is going to be when there's nothing to show for it (this isn't just about Curt, this is about ALL developers), I'll stop frothing. But you know what, that won't happen. The gaming industry, particularly online gaming, is a very, very small group of people. Finding out the skinny on ANY project is a matter of calling the right person. I don't do that because I can't be arsed to care, but developers know this. People can't keep their mouths shut.

Having said that, make your god damn list, so I have a nice long list of games to download and play when I get bored.   

Feh on you!

[MahrinSkel]

Problem would be that some are hard to impossible to play any more.  There's a couple of M.U.L.E. rebuilds out there, but if you wanted to play the Ultima 7 series you'd be pretty screwed (just to name 2 I'd definitely put on the list).

--Dave

[MahrinSkel]

I hate to break it to you, but that's not the reason Shadowbane failed. It failed because it was a bug ridden incomplete pile of shit. It was nothing like the image painted by WP for all those years. The only thing that worked (somewhat) as promised was the city building system. It was like buying a broken TV, and being asked to wait a few years until they can figure out how to fix it.

Camelot was not what I consider PVP. More like "PVP lite". It's a PVE game at heart with a PVP component that you can go play from time to time. I guess it was a moderate success.

I'm not trying to say that it was the only factor.  But SB sold a lot fewer boxes than its contemporaries (AO, WW2O, Camelot, SWG), and I do think that can be directly traced to the community image problem, it set the baseline against which the other factors of attrition played out.  The low revenues also contributed to the difficulties they had fixing their problems, they needed more manpower and instead were having to lay people off.  As for Camelot being "PvP-lite", you have to remember the environment we launched into.  People were convinced that pre-Trammel UO and the low populations of the EQ "Zek" servers proved that PvP couldn't work in an MMO, and nobody wanted to play in games that had it.  The market was *very* gun-shy of an MMO that integrated PvP into the base design.  That went away, precisely because Camelot succeeded, made people more willing to push the envelope on PvP.

--Dave

[naum]

Can't we just agree that everything about Shadowbane was wrong and that it all contributed to a black hole of suck? 

I don't agree to that.

I liked Shadowbane and rank it as one of the best MMOG I played (factoring gameplay experience and not the program/network stability issues, along with WoW and EQ). I enjoyed the PvP+.

The PVP+ concentration is not why it "failed" though:

* sb.exe errors — no matter how fun the game experience is, game crashes wear out patience quickly. Especially when paying a monthly fee…

* mandatory grouping — impossible to solo, even accounting for open PvP+ factor, game was totally geared to grouping. If that was the model players were routed into by WP then there should have been a better ladder (with tools built in to the game) to get them in alliances and guilds…

* static, permanent world/map — should have had random maps and/or world resets after given intervals

Still, I enjoyed a few months of SB and it was vastly superior to the whack-a-mole borefest, with less features than EQ and built-in nerfage, simpleton magic system that was DAoC (and I played DAoC from early alpha on to release…) or SWG (which was all wrong from the start, a virtual world sandbox grafted upon epic movie series license…) or AO (as big a bugfest w/Virtual Barbie to boot…)…

[Merusk]

Problem would be that some are hard to impossible to play any more.  There's a couple of M.U.L.E. rebuilds out there, but if you wanted to play the Ultima 7 series you'd be pretty screwed (just to name 2 I'd definitely put on the list).

--Dave

This is the internet.  Everything that was good enough to be considered a classic is out there, somewhere, until some lawyer finds them and makes it go down.  Even then, it'll spring up somewhere else later.

http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/109/Ultima+7+-+Part+1+-+The+Black+Gate.html