Schilling's Green Monster Games

[Azazel]

Quests don't inherently suck. Giving me a quest to kill 5 wolf pups, then a quest to kill 5 wolf juveniles, and then 5 wolf sub adults, and then 5 adults, and then the pack leader, while doling out XP and level limited loot all the way? That sucks.

The funny thing is that the quest chain you described is still far more entertaining than "LFG to stand in a specific corner of some place and pull the local respawn cycle for two hours". Basically, it's not ideal, but still manages to shit on what came before.

[Teleku]

Wow, I guess I shouldn't have ignored this thread for so long.  Schilling posting, who knew!

Anyways:

1.) Yes, LC will basically troll you for liking anything other than Hardcore Eve style PvP death penalty.  But hey, it's another view point.  If you can get by the assholishness of his usual posts, there actually tends to be some decent insight.

2.)  Good luck with the game!  Many people with their hearts set on creating a good game have failed due to many reasons (budget/pressure/incompetence/etc.).  It's not easy, but if you can pull it off, I have more faith in you guys making an enjoyable game than most of the big players.  I like the concept art, but I guess it all remains to be seen until you actually announce details on the game.

3.)  HAVING said that:

38 Studios owns the IP to about 95% of the games there with hopes to flesh that out into a full blown online wargamming community someday.

Oh dear god, THIS!  This is exactly what has been going through my head lately in my dream "man, if I made millions of dollars with my profession, I'd make this!" scenario. 

Really.  That would be GREAT.  I really want to play all those strategy games, but 1.)  It's hard to find any other friends/people to play with 2.) It can be long/tedious keeping track of everything on the more complicated board games (which leads heavily into point #1).

Magic the Gathering Online really tipped me off to the potential of moving card/board games to an online environment, but they destroyed it with horribly horrible programming (so maybe don't follow their lead).

It might start niche, but NOBODY has tapped into that market.  There is plenty of room to grow, and a large niche demand.  Hell, you can add in all the other board games out there that are a bit more casual.  If SOMEBODY would create an online portal where you could play all the old/new/complicated/simple board games out there, they'd strike it big.  Casual and Hardcore all paying for the same thing.  It would have steady growth, and could become mainstream.  On top of that, IT WOULD BE AWESOME.

So yeah, keep looking into that  . 

PLEASE.

[WindupAtheist]

Oh and for those wanting to send me PM's to tell me to 'cool down' or 'ease off' or 'maybe you should not post for awhile', don't. I'm a big boy and am completely at peace with myself. If I screw up I'm ok with being called on it, it happens, has happened and will happen again.

No way, that was your best post ever.  Give him hell.  A couple more like that and you'll be part of the tribe.

[Azazel]

What is wrong with you people. Stop being fucktards.

In part, at least, they're starstruck. It's simple. The famous baseball player that they have seen on tv told them to get bent after they trolled him. It's more exciting than trolling Raph or McQuaid or Smed etc since they've not famous in the real world or on the television machine. Not schild's line of "breadth?" questioning or even Haemish's "seen it all before", but the "i h8 u" stuff from LC and Musashi. Hey, at least WUA admitted it and joked about it months ago.

As a non-American, I don't give a shit about baseball, so Curt comes off as just another game dev, though one who is self-funding. I'm not a fan of RA though I don't hate him, and McFarlane drew some good Spider-Man comics back in the day. The only real feedback I have is that due to  , most of Curt's posts are kind of pointless as his main concern is his game, which he can't actually talk about.

edit - grammar

[Tarami]

Wow, I guess I shouldn't have ignored this thread for so long.  Schilling posting, who knew!

Anyways:

1.) Yes, LC will basically troll you for liking anything other than Hardcore Eve style PvP death penalty.  But hey, it's another view point.  If you can get by the assholishness of his usual posts, there actually tends to be some decent insight.

2.)  Good luck with the game!  Many people with their hearts set on creating a good game have failed due to many reasons (budget/pressure/incompetence/etc.).  It's not easy, but if you can pull it off, I have more faith in you guys making an enjoyable game than most of the big players.  I like the concept art, but I guess it all remains to be seen until you actually announce details on the game.

3.)  HAVING said that:

38 Studios owns the IP to about 95% of the games there with hopes to flesh that out into a full blown online wargamming community someday.

Oh dear god, THIS!  This is exactly what has been going through my head lately in my dream "man, if I made millions of dollars with my profession, I'd make this!" scenario. 

Really.  That would be GREAT.  I really want to play all those strategy games, but 1.)  It's hard to find any other friends/people to play with 2.) It can be long/tedious keeping track of everything on the more complicated board games (which leads heavily into point #1).

Magic the Gathering Online really tipped me off to the potential of moving card/board games to an online environment, but they destroyed it with horribly horrible programming (so maybe don't follow their lead).

It might start niche, but NOBODY has tapped into that market.  There is plenty of room to grow, and a large niche demand.  Hell, you can add in all the other board games out there that are a bit more casual.  If SOMEBODY would create an online portal where you could play all the old/new/complicated/simple board games out there, they'd strike it big.  Casual and Hardcore all paying for the same thing.  It would have steady growth, and could become mainstream.  On top of that, IT WOULD BE AWESOME.

So yeah, keep looking into that  . 

PLEASE.

Something like http://www.brettspielwelt.de/Spiele/?

It has been around for years. Although, if you're a boardgamer, you largely find the cold, de-humanised Internet a boring place to play games that don't need a computer's processing ability. Magic works better than most because of the collectible aspect.

[LC]

This is the type of post and person that made me laugh when you guys were trouncing on me a few pages back about posting on FOH.  All those descriptions of posters over there can be used for some folks posting here as well. I haven't been involved here as much or as long but there are posts in this BB that could have been cut and pasted from FOH.

You mean when we called them poopsockers? Do you know what that means? We may have a few of them here, but I don't think F13 is a community of poopsockers. Perhaps that's why you are feeling a bit out of your element.

The politically correct thing to do and maybe smarter move to make might be to just bypass this.

Unfortunately I sometimes can't and don't, like now. This guy is obviously nothing but a troll and a tool. Zero relevant input to give so he adds commentary that is totally irrelevant and meaningless.

If I really am a troll, then you have just awarded me a decisive victory by making an angry post. Good job!

You were responding to a post and comments that don't exist, and I am not sure why.

What? I clearly quoted one of your posts. Are you blind?

My question is "Dude, you are posting on a public BB where it appears the overwhelming majority of people here think you're an idiot, why?" Shouldn't you start a blog or something where your tiny gaggle of followers, if they exist, can live and converse with you about your complete comprehension of the world we live in and why everyone but you is wrong about everything?

This place would be pretty dull if we all agreed on everything. You must have lived a very sheltered virtual life so far.

You're too easy man, the world if full of folks like you who relish in sniping from the bleacher seats with no skin in the game.

Oh and for those wanting to send me PM's to tell me to 'cool down' or 'ease off' or 'maybe you should not post for awhile', don't. I'm a big boy and am completely at peace with myself. If I screw up I'm ok with being called on it, it happens, has happened and will happen again.

I guess you are comparing me to a heckler at a baseball game. I guess if he bought his ticket he has a right to complain about some washed up corpse throwing bad pitches. That's the right of every consumer/patron.

[Signe]

So, since baseball is not my thing, even though I'm married to a man who is distantly related to some famous baseball player I've never heard of, I read all about Curt Schilling on the innarloops.  He seems like a tough nut and enjoys speaking his mind even when he gets in a wee bit of trouble for it.  I have put him on my "hard" list.  All this is good, though, no?  Most of the people here enjoy speaking their mind to the point where they would be banned (or possibly baned) on any other site.  He also seems to be a staunch conservatice politically.  If someone like that can't take care of himself on the fucking virtual airwaves, who can?  I doubt the admin here are going to bother buffering any red name from people like LC or Viklas.  I hope not, anyway.  A fair bit of my fun on f13 comes from people having at each other over games!

Why do professional athletes seem to bring out either the starfuckers or the attackers?   

We need more women on F13!  That is the only answer.   

PS  Is there offsides in baseball?  If so, can someone please explain it?   

PPS  Make LC stop SirBrucing!  It'll bring back the night terrors!   

[Typhon]

[...]I have put him on my "hard" list.  [...]

you are a dirty, dirty girl. so naughty!  for god sake your husband reads this forum.

[Engels]

Curt seems to have the 'right stuff' to survive f13, since he's still reading and posting after the usual cacophony of f13 know-it-alls have chucked rocks at him. Question really is, can we challenge devs enough anymore to keep them interested in returning here.

In MMO land, things have been more adrift and stagnant than a brain-damaged dead head in the 80s. Nobody seems to really know what's wrong. There's WoW...and that's it. Conan's on the crashcart already. WH's exec is spewing inanities on Gamasutra. When EVE is the most active MMO game forum on f13, things are broken. Seriously broken. Do we have anything to say to anyone anymore, or are we like the remnants of a golden age, unwilling to leave our social circles out of inertia and loneliness?

[schild]

Fuck all that, I was trying to get him to expand his horizons. Everyone else wanted to dick around in the tiny diku box the world provided us.

Also, anyone who thinks a Wargame is really ready for primetime is deluded.

[gehrig38]

I think that is shortsighted really. Wargaming was a HUGE hobby fan base wise, before the PC and PC gaming. I still think there are a ton of people interested, and I think boxed sales of good games proved that over the years.

The thing is I think we are seeing the first generation, or maybe the second (am I that old!) of kids that grew up with a severe lack of boardgames as part of their youth. They were there, and this is just my opinion, but I don't think they were as much a part of this generations teens younger years as they were ours. Heck I know they were on their way out when I was growing up.
I have always loved the ftf camaraderie of board gaming but the online gaming world has replaced the need for us to play 'in person'. Is that a good thing? That's a debate for another time.

Schild the list of games I have liked and played is enormous. I can't even remember them all.

Boardgames
Panzerblitz
Panzerleader
Up Front (Card game DYING to be redone as a card game and an online game)
Warhammer table top (newer to this, and Fantasy not 40K)
SL
ASL
Risk (it was fun at the right age)
The George R Martin line of Kings games (loved this game and learned about some of my employees while playing this!)
And many more

But computer games was where I really got dedicated and obsessed
I'll try and chronologically list them (as best I can)

Star Trek (yep, the ASCII version, wow was that  the bomb when the Apple first came home!)

Wizardry (It starts and ends here, this was the end all be all for me then)

The subsequent Wizardy releases up to 3, after that it felt like someone else took over the franchise. The Legacy of Llylgammen (sp?) was the last true Wizardry for me

The SSR D&D stuff was fun as hell (Curse of the Azure Bonds was awesome).

Does anyone remember a 3D chess game, very old, 80's old, that was fantasy/demon based? It was so big (at that time) that I had to uninstall things and install it when I wanted to play?

I went MAC for a few years and there was a wargame, top down very simple graphics, that I was completely hooked on and obsessed with but I cannot remember the name. to this day it is the only game that came close to ASL for me.

Warcraft 1

X-Com

UOnline first MMO and I liked it, but PvP was so foreign and I was so bad I didn't enjoy it.

WWII Online, man did I hope this would be the best thing ever.

Battlefield 1942 This was fun as hell

Company of Heroes

Call of Duty all of them

Very little Civilization (I am a detail freak and Civ was too meta game for me)

Panzer General (pushed the envelope for me as far as too little detail but a great UI and interface made it funner than I expected it to be)

Age of Sail

All of the stuff Charlie Kibler helped make after he left AH. The Civil War and Napoleon era combat sims, loved this.

EQ (this was the watershed MMO for me, the one that I knew would lead me to 38S someday)

EQ was it for a good while. After moving from EQ PC I started and ran a MAC EQ guild for about a year. Less population and a ton of fun. Problem was I went away from EQ a few different times and when I came back the world had gotten too big for me and I literally couldn't find anyone. I left and people were still lining up in BB to get a group, I come back and there was NO ONE in the zone!

I rebelled when EQ2 was announced upon hearing my character would not be able to transfer, and went to DAOC which I liked. I only played 3-4 characters and none past the mid 30s.

I got heavily involved in the EQ2 beta and was up and running with DROW for a long time in EQ2. Really did have fun.

EQ2 was my first multi-box, I three boxed a Zerker, Chanter and something else? to max level and loved it.

Total War
Total War 22

Rome Total War

My interest waned and I tip toed into WoW with all the pre-conceived care bear impressions fresh in my head and was bowled over.

It wasn't care bear, well it was if you were a perma-death search for 2 hours to find the quest guy who was standing right in front of you player. I could completely understand EQ and EQ2 players complaints, to a degree. This was the period of time when 38 Studios (then GMG) was actually moving from dream to reality and imo I needed to grasp the fact that whatever you thought about WoW it brought MMO's to the "Mainstream". As mainstream as MMOs could be at this time. It's growing for sure. But WoW has brought MMO's to the online masses over here, well behind the Far East but it was incredible to me none the less.

FF a few years and I still enjoy the game. Probably because I did start late but there is still an enormous amount of people that started at launch, still playing. Do we like Blizzards release schedule? Hell no we're gamers, give it to us polished and finished, yesterday! The amount of negative WoW feedback you could collect is probably uncountable, but most of them are still playing....

I, like many here, have looked elsewhere. Not because WoW was boring to me, but because it's sort of how we are made I guess. The ONLY game that has REALLY piqued my interest is EVE and that is solely due to meeting Hilmar and to the FOH thread. EVE, while niche, is to me an awesome example of someone sticking to their creative guns and pumping out a product completely filled with the passion and love of the creators. I played some but when I realized that I would 'never catch up' to people that started before me, the competitor in me said no thanks. It's still, imo, an awesome game.

So I am sitting here at 38 on a Saturday, just finished walking the floor and seeing the latest Copernicus stuff in the works and again realizing how valuable the years of gaming experience are to me as I try and help steer this massive plodding thing that is it's own world. I also realize that I am so damn lucky and God blessed to be able to experience this stuff on a daily basis.

I think my personal attachment to the IP, since it started in my head, and to every single person in this 38 Family, will always be the reason behind me not 'turning the other cheek' when a prudent and smarter person might.

But at the end of the day that's who I am, for better or worse, and I sleep ok at night knowing that.

[Musashi]

[snip]... but the "i h8 u" stuff from LC and Musashi.

Don't throw me in that boat.  I know i wished him over a cliff, but I meant mine as a joke.  He fucking CRUSHED my team.  What does he want from me?  If I were him, I'd take opposing team fan hate as a compliment.

[gehrig38]

I have ALWAYS said if you walk into Yankee stadium and you don't get booed, you suck. Fans don't hate and boo players that suck....

[schild]

Oh, there's a place for Wargames online. Just not MMOGs. And you can't call it short sighted since all I said was 'not ready for primetime.' And I mean it, the tech isn't there yet. I'm also right. There aren't enough neckbeards on earth to make such a venture reasonable, Yet. You'd have to turn it into something completely unrecognizable from the original IP.

That said, Curt, if you're ever in Austin, I'll introduce you to a list of games. I'm too lazy to pop open the boxes. Suffice it to say, and I realize there's no way you've had the free time I've had (if I were you, I'd have a bed stuffed with money and roll around naked in the rest of the money all day), but that's a really short, narrow list of titles and it tells me a lot about your gaming habits (or lack thereof )

[Falwell]

I see neither Bard's Tale nor Might and Magic alongside the Wizardy references and I consider you a heathen unless this was a simple slip-up.

[schild]

I see neither Bard's Tale nor Might and Magic alongside the Wizardy references and I consider you a heathen unless this was a simple slip-up.

There's no Master of Magic, reference to FF 4, 5, or 6, Langrisser, Planescape, Deus Ex, in fact, there's nothing from my entire top 20 on that list of all (lol i brought upt he top 20 lists). Sure, X-Com is there, but other teams have done it better since. I should start writing a book on gaming history. I think I know enough. A sort of encyclopedia. I can call it Must Play.

Edit: I'm not saying my top 20 is that great (it is, jerks), but it's more like, I could make a list of a top 200 and most of the games mentioned there wouldn't be on it. That list, is in fact, more narrow than a 1 lane road.

[Falwell]

I see neither Bard's Tale nor Might and Magic alongside the Wizardy references and I consider you a heathen unless this was a simple slip-up.

Sure, X-Com is there, but other teams have done it better since.

Ok, I take that back. Schild is the heathen.

[gehrig38]

I see neither Bard's Tale nor Might and Magic alongside the Wizardy references and I consider you a heathen unless this was a simple slip-up.

Oh dang, thanks! Yep, Bards Tale and the series was a definite! I think I still have some of the books from the game. That was another one I hoped would be far better than it was.

Also Baldur's Gate, and Neverwinter Nights.

Magic? The TCG? As embarrassed as I am, I'll admit. I never played it, UNTIL, the online game came out. Then I was the idiot rich guy who bought a crap ton of cards and went and got waxed repeatedly. I have a MASSIVE online collection that is being passed around the studio:) I really liked it but I knew very quickly that if I wasn't going to commit the time I wasn't going to be a great player.

[schild]

I see neither Bard's Tale nor Might and Magic alongside the Wizardy references and I consider you a heathen unless this was a simple slip-up.

Sure, X-Com is there, but other teams have done it better since.

Ok, I take that back. Schild is the heathen.

You're playing a shitty Diablo clone from the eastern bloc. Do you have a PSP? Yes? Good. No, get one. Pick up FFT, Jeanne D'Arc, and Disgaea while you're at it. Thx.

[gehrig38]

I see neither Bard's Tale nor Might and Magic alongside the Wizardy references and I consider you a heathen unless this was a simple slip-up.

There's no Master of Magic, reference to FF 4, 5, or 6, Langrisser, Planescape, Deus Ex, in fact, there's nothing from my entire top 20 on that list of all (lol i brought upt he top 20 lists). Sure, X-Com is there, but other teams have done it better since. I should start writing a book on gaming history. I think I know enough. A sort of encyclopedia. I can call it Must Play.

Edit: I'm not saying my top 20 is that great (it is, jerks), but it's more like, I could make a list of a top 200 and most of the games mentioned there wouldn't be on it. That list, is in fact, more narrow than a 1 lane road.

Wow, your games suck. With the exception of Deus Ex, which I think I vaguely liked, your list in my opinion, at least what you posted, are games I think suck.

[schild]

Uh oh.

[Falwell]

I see neither Bard's Tale nor Might and Magic alongside the Wizardy references and I consider you a heathen unless this was a simple slip-up.

Magic? The TCG? As embarrassed as I am, I'll admit. I never played it, UNTIL, the online game came out.

Oh no good sir. Master of Magic was an old Micropose strategy game from WAY back....circa...94'ish? It was basically crack cocaine dipped in nicotine and milk chocolate.

[schild]

Curt, do you - AT THE VERY LEAST - know why those games I listed are important to gaming?

[Sairon]

I think it was a fairly decent list of titles, a lot of which I haven't played. Curt has certainly gamed more than the vast majority of gaming execs. Of course he's going to come short when compared with schild, I have a hard time seeing anyone matching up to that level of craziness when it comes to gaming 

If he already have tried some of the better japaneses SRPGs and not liked them, then he will most likely not like anything in that genre. Even if I'd agree that would be missing out on awesomeness.

[schild]

Ok, Curt look, I'm not trying to be mean. But MMOGs need a white knight. They need people who think outside the box. They need people to break the direction we're going in. They need people to do new things, not rehash old things with a shinier (or not shinier) coat of paint. We need innovation, change, and revolution. We need someone who isn't just making a game they want to play. Someone obviously already made what you wanted to play, twice now.

I haven't seen Copernicus. I don't know what direction you're going with. That's why I'm digging this information out of you. It says a lot about what type of game we might see. And frankly, I'm scared. It's more than likely not going to be AS COOL as you say it is, simply based on your gaming history and how interested you are in building YOUR WORLD for YOU rather than a world for gamers.

I understand it's a tough time to be making an MMOG. Some companies are moving to consoles, some are skirting around WoW. They have an expansion coming out and two other MMOGs in development (one further along than the other, obviously), and that's scary for anyone. Especially someone who's putting their own money to it. But let me say this:

Do not fuck up. Do not do the same shit. All turns down that road lead to an endless pit of despair and mediocrity. If I could impart one thing to you, force it upon you with a snowglobe to the skull, it would be to step out of your shell of safety and security and try to do something different. Something genre-redefining. Because frankly, and I hate to put it this way, if it's diku-based, you'd be better off shoving the money up your ass.

Edit: By the way, you're in the position to Change Things and I'm addressing you this way solely because it IS your money. Not some investors expecting a return. While there may be investors, I'm 100% sure you have more freedom than most. Don't piss it away and don't tell me you're not pissing it away. SHOW ME you're not pissing it away.

[Merusk]

Planescape sucks? Master of Magic sucks?  I can't parse those sentences.

I can understand not liking them now, but in the day they were the pinnacle.  Hell, MoM is still pretty damn good.

[Margalis]

Schild, there is such a thing as personal taste. He listed a bunch of games that were pretty good, the fact that he didn't list any JRPGs and SRPGs doesn't make him a terrible heathen.

This has gotten quite daft.

Edit: Would FOH be any dumber than this? Doubtful. At this point there really isn't much to talk about so people are dramatizing the most inane tidbits.

We should talk about the Manny trade instead.

[schild]

Fuck JRPGs and SRPGs. Let's talk about first person shooters, platformers, beat-em-ups, shmups, fucking golf games. Fuck, flight simulators. I don't give a shit what we talk about. But there's something to be said about knowing where stuff came from, where design decisions were made and mishandled. Where people took leaps forward and fell back. You know, The History of Gaming. Is it too much to ask that I don't want our future to be decided by people who don't know an absolute shit ton of the industry they meshed themselves with.

Fuck, man. Just, fuck.

Do I need to make a road sign. CAUTION: HISTORY REPEATING.

[Margalis]

While that sounds good on paper there is very little evidence that that results in better games. In the case of MMORPGs if anything being embedded in MMO/MUD history and culture seems to result in myopia and worse products.

[schild]

You're still missing the goddamn point. I'm saying embed yourself with the rest of gaming. OUTSIDE THE BOX. OUTSIDE THE GODDAMN BOX. WAY OUTSIDE. LEFT FIELD. LOL BASEBALL ANALOGY.

Yes, I'm frothing at this point.

It went over your head like a goddamn flock of seagulls (lol).

You know what, I'll just say it:

MMOG designers don't know enough about fucking gaming. They might know MMOGs, but that's obviously not enough anymore. And frankly, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if this is a sign of things to come, we're fucking doomed. Forget about post-apocalyptic, that's a description of the goddamn MMORPG genre. Fuck. Now I'm just mad. It's your fault.

Edit: Here, I'll make it clear since there seems to be a thick haze of whatever in front of you: This was never, ever, ever about taste. This is about knowledge. Nothing else.

[Nebu]

Does anyone remember a 3D chess game, very old, 80's old, that was fantasy/demon based? It was so big (at that time) that I had to uninstall things and install it when I wanted to play?

Do you mean Archon?  God I loved that game.

I find it very interesting that Curt has similar tastes to me in gaming.  I'm not sure if it's the age similarity or what.  I was raised on Squad Leader, Risk, Chess, and Panzer Blitz and I'm still amazed how those games shaped my current tastes.  I'm still drawn to flight/driving sims, golf titles, and anything that mimics Status Pro or Title Bout from Avalon Hill.

Tastes vary by life experience and generation.  So do perceptions on fun.  Coming from an era where we went outside to play with neighborhood friends rather than loading up a video game gives you a very different perspective.  Schild's whole life has been in the electronic age.  I'm guessing it's hard for him to remember a time when there wasn't an internet.  His tastes in games reflect this to a degree. I do agree with him in that it would be great if you managed to avoid some of the missteps of the past, but also encourage you to stay true to your passions.  There are far better ways to measure success than by achieving mass appeal.

[schild]

There are far better ways to measure success than by achieving mass appeal.

I also never said it was about mass appeal. I'd rather succeed in doing something new in a niche than beat WoW. In fact, I made mention that he DOESN'T have to beat WoW because no one is breathing down his neck to do so.

Are my posts really that out there? Are they in another language. I'm fucking dying over here.

[Nebu]

I also never said it was about mass appeal.

I know you didn't.  I added that from my own wee little brain.

I get what you're saying Schild.  You want him to create something that isn't just derivative.  The man has the opportunity of a lifetime in his hands and you don't want it squandered... I get it.

[schild]

I also never said it was about mass appeal.

I know you didn't.  I added that from my own wee little brain.

Ok. Fair enough. Also, I'll add, I remember vividly my life before computers and Nintendo. I am, in fact, Just Old Enough to know what else is out there. And I was also smart enough as a kid to play most of the games "old timers" claim to be classics. But as I said, it's not about taste. This is about learning, history, and the furthering of knowledge. Nebu, you of all people...

Edit: Ah, you edited: Not just that though, never stop learning. And never look a gift horse in the mouth.

[Nebu]

I think I caught you with an edit before you posted. Suffice it to say that I'm big on learning from the past.