Moonkin have more fun.

[bhodi]

This has got the be the funniest thing I've ever seen. Could you imagine being the horde?

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=4807139311734672369

[caladein]

That is all.

[stray]

Not to take away from the fun, but I hate Google video. I want to see how much mana they're burning up.

[Strazos]

Gogo Imba Newb Style. Spam that moonfire.

I'm convinced that WoW PvP takes practically no player skill. Zero.

[stray]

Personally, I hate it. But then, I'm not dmg+int geared or a Moonkin either. It's terribly inefficient from my (admittedly, inexperienced) point of view.

[edit] Also, I'm a Tauren. We shouldn't be "cute" anyways.

[Kail]

I'm convinced that WoW PvP takes practically no player skill. Zero.

I'm not arguing (I've been reamed too many times while in stun/fear/charm/whatever to assert otherwise), but I've always been of the impression that moonfire spam was an extremely poor tactic.  I haven't been up against that many moonkin who spam moonfire, but the ones I have seen I can usually out-DPS with my shaman or just heal myself a few times until they run out of mana.  Have I just not been getting hit by any uber geared druids, or what?  Does this really work?  I was amazed when the screen popped up and showed that the Alliance won that; it looked like they had like what, eight guys defending the blacksmith for most of that match, against a handful of Horde?

[Strazos]

I can't speak much for the 50-60 PvP range. I got a warrior to 52, tried the PvP, and promptly quit out of disgust.

But I played the lowbie brackets a shitton. Moonfire spam works FAR too well in those brackets; at least as a warrior, there's practically no way to stop it, as it's an instant cast. Hell, I've had stupid elf druids simply walk backwards and spam me down. I imagine it would be even worse if I did use a Tauren warrior.

(That's not to say that I can't kill druids; I kill them by the boat load. I just think that stupid tactic should practically never work, especially if both people start at full health)

[pxib]

Among the links next to that video was some footage from a cooler game than the one you are currently playing.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-4795476850948386379

[stray]

Hell, I've had stupid elf druids simply walk backwards and spam me down. I imagine it would be even worse if I did use a Tauren warrior.

Hamstring is "instant cast" too, y'know? ;)

If you don't suceed there, and they shift to a form to break your snare, then Hamstring again. A Druid won't be able to shift forever. Costs a lot of mana to do that.

And if they do so happen to take off in Cat Form, there's a little window of opportunity for your charge to pop up and you can close in on them again. Once you charge them, then Hamstring them.

Use nothing but a two-hander in PvP. You want scary burst damage as a warrior. It has a better psychological effect on opponents, and keeps them on their toes. DPS otoh, just gives them the impression they can throw down with you, and makes them confident. You don't want confident opponents.

If he gives up running and tries to start healing, then Pummel. Then beat the shit out of him.

Execute.

If none of that works out, then Fear them. Save the fight for another day.

....

What's a Tauren warrior have to do anything? I don't understand.

[bhodi]

I'm not arguing (I've been reamed too many times while in stun/fear/charm/whatever to assert otherwise), but I've always been of the impression that moonfire spam was an extremely poor tactic.  I haven't been up against that many moonkin who spam moonfire, but the ones I have seen I can usually out-DPS with my shaman or just heal myself a few times until they run out of mana.  Have I just not been getting hit by any uber geared druids, or what?  Does this really work?  I was amazed when the screen popped up and showed that the Alliance won that; it looked like they had like what, eight guys defending the blacksmith for most of that match, against a handful of Horde?

Well, the psycological effect had to be devistating. Moonfires everywhere, getting eaten, 4 ticks on you, unable to do any real physical damage to them... they just shift out and heal...

It's entirely possible they were outgeared. I'm personally shocked they found 15 moonkin on one server ;)  The guy who made the video was weilding a shadow focus staff so they've finished BWL at least. I couldn't tell his armor due to the low resolution.

[Fordel]

Noobfire works more often then anyone (including druids) wants to admit. Doubly so if your actually balanced spec'd. With that many balance druids in one place, all spamming it up, they are dealing something like 2k-3k dmg every moonfire blast, assuming no crits, which would just inflate it even more. Then you have the 10-15 DoT's all stacked on you... so even if you managed to get away, you'd die to that. It was pretty much a wtf moment for the other side. How often do you see one oomkin, let alone a dozen?


As to moonfire itself, yes it is often hilariously effective in the lowbie BGs, but many abilities and spells are just out of whack at that level. Come 60, especially when people start getting better gear and have more stamina, it becomes far less effective for the most part. Doesn't become useless either though. If you have a decent amount into balance (20ish in or so), it is entirely possible to noobfire down low HP classes like mages, usually to their extreme frustration. You can't really counterspell a instant, and unless the mage can one/two-shot the druid (which does happen depending on gear/spec), the fight will devolve into a mana war, and the Druid will always win the mana war.

Probably the best part about moonfire spam, is how it seems to annoy other druids. A lot of druids pride themselves on their intricate shapeshifting tactics and strategies. Going about how they FeralCharged into a Root to pull away to cat for 3 rounds to combo up to a rip then hit a FeralCharge again shifted out to cast a wrath, went back into bear to maul then bash, then healed and HoT'd and went back into cat for a shred and finally a ferocious bite... etc. These druids seem to get very upset when they see another druid, in the same situation, just spam noobfire ftw and win the fight in half the time and a tenth of the effort.


Want to have real FrontLoading fun though? Instead of 10-15 druids, get 15 Shamans and have them all Shock the same target. Insta death every six seconds!


PS. Your noobfire tip for the day, Hit the target with your top rank, then spam the rank just below it. This way the DoT portion of the moonfire will continue without interuption from the reapplying of the moonfire as it is being spammed.

[Zetor]

There was a 10-druid WSG on my server a while ago, it was apparently quite fun. Keep in mind though, stacking 10 of any class can get pretty crazy (10 deathcoils!), if you have the organization to pull it off. You're also very likely to get wrecked the moment you meet an organized group that has more than just 1 class (and thus versatility).

Killing druids as a warrior isn't that hard as long as you have a pvp trinket, I can't remember the last time I died to one on my warrior. Hamstring (piercing howl if they get out of range somehow), mortal strike and beat on them, in caster form they go down quick. If they try to heal or root in caster, you have 3 different interrupts (4 as tauren); if they go in catform, you should be able to 2-shot them; if they go bear (and are specced for it), you might be in trouble, but the fight will take at least 3 minutes. I really don't think gauging moonfire spam viability in the 20-29 (or 30-39, etc) bracket is worthwhile; not only does everyone have less health, but with the proper +arcane gear, they can actually hit for rather harsh damage.

In fact, (speaking as someone with a rank10 warrior) warriors are one of the classes that take the least amount of 'skill' (or I should say, initiative) to play. As long as you keep your target hamstrung and are beating on them with a huge sword, you win... or lose. Of course there are unconventional skills like intimidating shout / disarm / sweeping strikes / berzerker rage / intercept, but it's evident when you need to use those (I got feared? oh... berzerker rage! Mage blinked? Hmmm... intercept!). Playing a healing class or a CCing dps class gives you a lot more options and decisions in pvp.


-- Z.

[Teleku]

Out of curiosity, Strazos, what other games do you feel have more skill involved in PvP combat?  I`ve always felt wow allowed for some very skilled pvp, making use of many different skills and using many different tactics to take on all the different class`s.  Each class has been paper/scissor/rock balanced enouph to require alot of different strategys.  Only thing I could really see that argument working for are warriors, since usual my encounters with them are Charge/hamstring/half my life gone/fear/warrior breaks fear instantly/intercept stun/ 1 or 2 shot death.  But everything else usually is a pretty good fight.  Personally, I`ve yet to play an MMO that took any more skill than wow for PvP, with maybe the exception of Eve.  But that is such a different style of PvP its hard to compare, and alot of its automated.

[lamaros]

Too gear dependent.

Equally geared fights can have some skill, but there are also huge imbalances.

I think there will be a bit of skill in the team fights in the expansion in the arena, though. Because as they have said a number of times WoW is more balanced in groups than individualy.

But current PvP is real world PvP, which is often ganking or 1v1 (which is unbalanced), or BGs, which is just gear dependent or zerging boringness. So current PvP has little skill.

[stray]

Yeah, gear will sully things a bit. It might be gratifying (in a Beserk GTA/Slaughter the Innocents kind of way) for the person with major item advantages, but I really doubt it's "fun" for them (at least this is what I've observed from a friend with well geared out characters in just about every bracket).

For their opponents, it's obviously not fun being taken out of a fight so easily by someone who just stands there and swings. It's also not fun when you have no choice but to zerg people who resort to that.

There are times when the game doesn't stoop to the level of Zerg vs Twinks, and can be pretty entertaining. For the type of game it is at least -- relatively speaking, "rpg" pvp in and of itself is crap (it's just a good thing there are other elements that make up for that). Hotkeys and acquaintance with class skills (even all class skills) are not difficult things to understand. Hell, I barely play the game, didn't play the game much before, and my Theorycraft-Fu is about as good as it gets. 

Once again: Shadowbane is uglier, but much better. Next to no uber items (save for the odd live event item here and there), world pvp had a point, and a good group of 10 could make life hell for groups twice their number every time. A good group of 30 vs a bad group of 30 could potentially wipe out the entire side without only a few people dying.

[bhodi]

Amazingly enough Strazos, warror vs balance druid is almost a druid auto-win. I don't know if you have any experience fighting moonkin, since they are fairly rare and require a good deal of high-end specalized equipment to be *really* viable (genesis set, that kind of thing), but in the right situation they are really really deadly one on one vs a warrior, owning to Entangling roots, Nature's grasp (high chance to proc entangling roots on hit), and their +360% armor in moonkin form (the same as the bear form). They can generally root, stay out of range, and hit you for starfire/moonfire/wrath until you drop. It's even worse with tauren, becuase they can shift->warstomp->regrowth+rejuv->shift back, whereas the NE moonkin only get shift->rejuv->shift. They are the closest thing that WoW has to the tank mage. It's essentially their mana bar versus your life bar, and while they have trouble taking more than one, or a warrior with healing/damage support, 1 vs 1 is generally no contest.

[Strazos]

Hell, I've had stupid elf druids simply walk backwards and spam me down. I imagine it would be even worse if I did use a Tauren warrior.

Hamstring is "instant cast" too, y'know? ;)

If you don't suceed there, and they shift to a form to break your snare, then Hamstring again. A Druid won't be able to shift forever. Costs a lot of mana to do that.

And if they do so happen to take off in Cat Form, there's a little window of opportunity for your charge to pop up and you can close in on them again. Once you charge them, then Hamstring them.

Use nothing but a two-hander in PvP. You want scary burst damage as a warrior. It has a better psychological effect on opponents, and keeps them on their toes. DPS otoh, just gives them the impression they can throw down with you, and makes them confident. You don't want confident opponents.

If he gives up running and tries to start healing, then Pummel. Then beat the shit out of him.

Execute.

If none of that works out, then Fear them. Save the fight for another day.

....

What's a Tauren warrior have to do anything? I don't understand.

Yeah, I know all of that. Doesn't help if I don't get to charge in first and they snare/root me.

[Strazos]

Out of curiosity, Strazos, what other games do you feel have more skill involved in PvP combat?

Far too often, the outcome comes down to level (= time played) and gear (= time played). I can sit around and play for hours on end every day too if I want. The only skill involved in that is finding a way to pay your bills while playing so much.

That's not to say I didn't do well when I PvP'ed - I did exceptionally well. But it wasn't really tough; oooo, charge, (rend on rogues) (zerker stance vs warlocks, priests, mages) hamstring, Mortal Strike, Heroic Strike, maybe Execute if I felt like it. Toss in a disarm against rogues, warriors, maybe paladins. Simply charge a paladin and fire a Deathray for added fun. Maybe pummel against a caster, but whatwith the lag and short cast times, that was almost useless. Toss in some Overpowers when able. Cleave, Whirlwind in groups, maybe sweeping strikes. Fire retal for added fun when multi-targetted. Randomly fire Demoralizing shout if I think there's a stealther around, and ruin their day. Grab the enrage item for super fat cow action.

Nope, it's not tough. At all.

[Chenghiz]

I'll bite. Saying pvp in WoW takes little to no skill is an unjustly large generalisation. There are a lot of factors involved in pvp, the biggest of which are gear, class matchup and player skill. Some classes are easier to play than others (I still refuse to believe that shadow priest pvp is difficult) and as a result, player skill is more of a factor with some classes than others. So yeah, gear can be a big factor (the disparity between blues/MC epics and AQ40 gear is really where this starts to hurt IMO), but if you're fighting a terrible player and you happen to be pretty good, there is still a fighting chance. Are you saying you've never had a tough pvp fight, Strazos?

[Zetor]

Far too often, the outcome comes down to level (= time played) and gear (= time played). I can sit around and play for hours on end every day too if I want. The only skill involved in that is finding a way to pay your bills while playing so much.

That's not to say I didn't do well when I PvP'ed - I did exceptionally well. But it wasn't really tough; oooo, charge, (rend on rogues) (zerker stance vs warlocks, priests, mages) hamstring, Mortal Strike, Heroic Strike, maybe Execute if I felt like it. Toss in a disarm against rogues, warriors, maybe paladins. Simply charge a paladin and fire a Deathray for added fun. Maybe pummel against a caster, but whatwith the lag and short cast times, that was almost useless. Toss in some Overpowers when able. Cleave, Whirlwind in groups, maybe sweeping strikes. Fire retal for added fun when multi-targetted. Randomly fire Demoralizing shout if I think there's a stealther around, and ruin their day. Grab the enrage item for super fat cow action.

Nope, it's not tough. At all.

I don't think anyone'd disagree that gear's pretty much the defining point in pvp, especially similar-class matchups.

However, that's not true of every class. Like I said in my previous post, warriors are one of the most simplistic pvp classes in the game [tied with shadow priests], and I say that with more than a year of active warrior pvp experience. You might have options, but at every point it's clear what you should or shouldn't do. With a healing, CCing or hybrid class, there's a lot more room for strategizing.


-- Z.

[Fordel]

WoW PvP is like any other MMO's PvP. It isn't so much "skill" as it is simply not screwing up to badly. The Fights are more often then not, decided on how your enemy screws up, not on how you perform. The bar for player skill in a MMO is set so low, that it's almost not an issue. A Warrior and myself (A Druid) are defending the mine, a Mage and Priest come to assault it. The Mage decides to poly me, the druid. I break it and we kill them off easily. Nothing we did was dramatically awesome as players, it's just the Mage boned his poly up. Had he poly'd the warrior, I would've been at the mercy of two silence capable classes. /shrug

The only time I really think true player skill would come into play is if you had two identical classes, same gear, same level, same spec, and one player somehow won the majority of the time... but even then, I'd wager the RNG has more to do with victory then any kind of player skill.

If you want to say the skill in MMO PvP is in the teamplay, I'd probably agree. You can really see the difference in a good team against a poor one. A really good team will be dynamic and adjust to the situation on the fly, a poor one will carry out there preset strategy even if its getting them all killed. Ever kill the MainAssist in DAOC and watch the rest of the train run around clueless?


Most folks on these boards could probably be given any WoW class at 60 and within 10 minutes have all the basics, and within an hour be as good as they fellow who played the class for a year. There just isn't that much to figure out really on a per class basis.

[Jayce]

Most folks on these boards could probably be given any WoW class at 60 and within 10 minutes have all the basics, and within an hour be as good as they fellow who played the class for a year. There just isn't that much to figure out really on a per class basis.

I think you people are simplifying quite a bit.  It may be hard to see from your lofty perch of having PvPd for a while, but there is a bit of a climb.

Take me for example.  I have a 60 warrior, great gear, but I haven't PvPd much (almost Honored with Arathor, plus random world PvP on a PvP server).  I still suck massively.  I die most of the time regardless of my gear.

I played my friend's 60 lock, which is blue-geared for a while.  I'd get lucky once in a while, but I hardly could figure out how to drive the thing, much less make the bad guys die.

I now have a 40s shadow priest (easymode ftw).  I do decently in PvP, but I still suck against someone with any sort of skill whatsoever.

So my conclusion is, there is a learning curve.  I used to be good in UO, AC1, and SB PvP, and various RTS, so it's not that I just suck at games.

[stray]

If you were good at those games, then I don't know what to say. That kind of experience works in my benefit at least.

Is the Alzheimer's already settling in or what? ;)

[Ironwood]

Don't joke.  I went back to my warrior after a break to level a lock to 60 and I'd totally forgotten how to play.

:(

[Strazos]

Are you saying you've never had a tough pvp fight, Strazos?

Sure I have, and the difficulty of the battle commonly comes down to level and gear disparity, and then people using cheap/borderline-exploity techniques (FD-Trap, fleeing druids constantly shapeshifting with enough lag to keep ahead of me, stunlock (at lower levels before trinket/zerker rage) and other stupid nonsense).

Very rarely do I find a battle to be hard because of any kind of skill on the part of the opponent. And it usually doesn't matter, because when I was playing, I won far more battles than I lost.

But it was said wel above; whoever screws up less probably wins. I suppose not screwing up could be a skill.

[Jayce]

If you were good at those games, then I don't know what to say. That kind of experience works in my benefit at least.

Is the Alzheimer's already settling in or what? ;)

You might be on to something there.

[Fordel]

But it was said wel above; whoever screws up less probably wins. I suppose not screwing up could be a skill.

Of course, some classes just have less to screwup and/or can recover from said screwup better.

[trias_e]

As a fairly undergeared mage, if I don't play perfectly, I really suck it up.

I would say my playstyle takes a lot of skill.  Some classes probably take much less than mage, but playing a mage requires FPS like reflexes, tactical understanding of distance, and total understanding of the other classes.

[Rithrin]

but playing a mage requires FPS like reflexes, tactical understanding of distance, and total understanding of the other classes.

This goes for pretty much any class in WoW. Every class must have "FPS-like reflexes", which is what I think a lot of people mistake for skill. Well, that is of course a skill as well, but a general skill for every class. Everyone's got to know distance.. "Hmm, how far away am I from his/my charge range?" especially when fighting hunters you've got to know the deadzone well. Total understanding of the other classes? You're not going to beat meany people if you don't know their class.

I think WoW PvP gives great illusion of skill, though. I can't tell you how many times leveling and even PvP'ing from level 1 to 60 I felt like I was insanely skilled. When really, its all basic. Throwing two DoTs on a mob/player and kiting them with a snare and your fear certainly feels like you outskilled them, but really there's no other you could have done it. Same with warriors, while you may feel like you owned that rogue because you're so good, all you really did was snare him and overpower him when the button popped up. That's certainly not skill, its pressing buttons.

There are situations in WoW where you do need to actually think about when to use an ability, but that's mainly for things like deciding if you want to interrupt a heal, or a nuke that might kill you. But often that's pretty much been dumbed down to "Hit pummel when you see green glowies!".

And of course none of the above even matters if your outgeared. Especially fighting the same class as you. Its pathetic being a warrior and running across another warrior and losing purely because he hits for one and a half what you hit for and has twice your armor. There's absolutely nothing you can do at that point except maybe a few engineering items or trinkets. But even then, there's no skill - you just lose. To gear.

[Chenghiz]

So I guess FPS games don't actually require skill either because there's only one right way to shoot people? And your last paragraph reminded me of the experiences I've had with AWP whores.

[trias_e]

That's the difference between a mage and a warrior then:  As a mage, I can beat definitely beat a mage that outgears me if I play well, because the fight isn't 'just the way it's gonna be' every time.  When do you counterspell, when do you sheep, when do you ice block, what range do you stay at, what nuke do you use?  Lots of choices, including skill use and once again, distance!

Distance is increasibly important for a mage.  Appropriate use of distance (and closing of it in certain cases) is essential to playing the class well.  Understanding distance is not something a bot would be able to do very well, especially against multiple opponents in a 3v2 type situation.

[Kail]

So I guess FPS games don't actually require skill either because there's only one right way to shoot people? And your last paragraph reminded me of the experiences I've had with AWP whores.

Well, there's a reason AWP whores are reviled among a large percentage of players.  Mousing a cross over a player and clicking a button isn't a super difficult skill to master.  Most of the skill in CS (or in most FPSes) comes from the tactical aspect of it.  When do you move, when do you stop, where do you move to, where is the cover in a certain position, et cetera.  You don't get this in WoW, because those options are largely negated by the combat system.  You can't jump out from behind cover and let off a shot or two, because most of your nukes take two or three seconds to fire.  You don't worry about stealth or concealment because either your name shows up over your head as a huge neon red marker, or you're a Rogue and can be concealed in the middle of a flat empty plane at noon.  You can't try to use the terrain to your advantage, because most attacks will ignore it completely (fireballs going right through trees/hills, melee attacks ignoring obstructions/weapon range/height differences/etc.).

That's the difference between a mage and a warrior then:  As a mage, I can beat definitely beat a mage that outgears me if I play well, because the fight isn't 'just the way it's gonna be' every time.  When do you counterspell, when do you sheep, when do you ice block, what range do you stay at, what nuke do you use?  Lots of choices, including skill use and once again, distance!

Distance is increasibly important for a mage.  Appropriate use of distance (and closing of it in certain cases) is essential to playing the class well.  Understanding distance is not something a bot would be able to do very well, especially against multiple opponents in a 3v2 type situation.

I'm not understanding this really well (I never played a mage past thirty).  As any other class, if an enemy is outside of the range for an ability, that ability will grey out and you won't be able to even try to use it.  The exception for this would be AOE spells, which either show you exactly where you'll hit (like Blizzard) or only hit enemies fairly close to you (like Frost Nova) where the distance is fairly easy to estimate.  And why would a bot have difficulty reading distance?

I do agree that a mage (or any caster) is less depentant on gear than a warrior or rogue, and has a ton more options open to them.  I find them to be a lot more fun in general.

However, I also think that, ultimately, they fall prey to the same simplicity that other classes to.  When do you counterspell?  When the enemy is about halfway done casting their healing/big damage spell.  When do you sheep?  When fighting two enemies at once.  What range do you stay at?  The "long" one.  I'm sure you can come up with some situations where you'd do otherwise, but how crucial are these to your overall success?  Compared to, say, the likelihood of your enemy getting in a few lucky resists, or critting you at an inopportune time?

[Fordel]

Even the "FPS like reflexes" gets tossed out in WoW (and most other MMOs), due to the global cooldown 90% of abilities must follow. Almost every ability has a 1.5 second mechanical 'hesitation' built into it. 1.5 seconds of hesitation in a FPS usually means you just died.

[Chenghiz]

In FPS games players die and kill more frequently; it's natural that they require reflexes. However reflexes are but a small subset of what one might define as 'skill.'

Most of the skill in CS (or in most FPSes) comes from the tactical aspect of it.

Now that we've defined tactical knowledge to be an important part of 'skill' I think we can move on. There's plenty of tactical (and strategic) knowledge in WoW as well.

[stray]

In WoW you can't dodge (other than passively), and you aim by simply clicking or /targetting people. There's also healing, buffs, debuffs, cooldowns, casting times, gear, enchants, levels, classes, stuns, snares, seduction, sleeps, roots, traps, fears, holds, feigning death, mind fucking control (!), very little restrictions on line of sight, and whatever other staple of mmorpg's I'm forgetting to mention. When it's all added up, there's very little left on your part except to not be a complete, uninformed, blundering fool. If that's a skill, then so be it.

Or in other words, your character matters more than you. In an FPS such a concept is virtually non-existent (or rather, not existent at all).

[edit]

Also, whatever players that do have skill in an mmo like WoW are the ones who are good at other games too (i.e. their tactics and way of going about things are borrowed from experience in shooters, beat em ups, or strategy games. The same can't be said for the knuckleheads who've migrated from EQ).