Moonkin have more fun.

[Rithrin]

So I guess FPS games don't actually require skill either because there's only one right way to shoot people? And your last paragraph reminded me of the experiences I've had with AWP whores.

See the thing is: There is more than one way to shoot someone in FPSs. Most of its been covered, but I'll go on. In an FPS you've got lots of things to think about. You can use cover, you can adapt your weapon of choice to ranged or close quarters combat, you can try to outmaneuver your opponent to mess with his accuracy, you can sneak up on someone with a ready to go rocket launcher, whatever. At any one point there's a whole bunch of things you can do. He's got an AWP sniper? Lob grenades at his general position to flush him out, find some way to get to him other than running through an open area, get someone else on your team to flank him or to cover you while you go in. All this is a good amount of strategy and also all this works because its 100% equal. You got killed by weapon X 10 times so far and think its overpowered? Use it yourself, nothing it stopping you. Everything is available to every player. And its never "obvious" as to what you need to do. In WoW, its pretty simple for each class since they only have a few things they can do primarily. Mages cast a few different spells, Warlocks have DoTs, Fear, and one nuke, Warriors have autoattack and a special attack or two, Hunters shoot arrows and lay traps, Priests have a DoT, Fear, and a nuke, etc. As a Mage, you nuke them and don't let them get near you. As Warlock you DoT them and keep them away. As a Warrior you autoattack all day long.

Now, I'm not saying WoW has zero skill involved. Group fighting definately has many tactics, but the skill is in the grouping.. as the individual's experience is simple, its harder to coordinate it all and get it to work together with usually between 4 to 9 other people.

[Merusk]

Well it's a good thing that WoW's pvp is balanced and conceptualized around that whole group idea then, isn't it?

[Fordel]

Well it's a good thing that WoW's pvp is balanced and conceptualized around that whole group idea then, isn't it?

I honestly wonder if any MMO PvP is really ever balanced at all. I know all the Dev's always say that everything is balanced around groups, but is it really? I'm half certain it is just some sort of cop out, since even with 5v5, you have eight classes per side, and one class is unique per side and each class has three distinct branches of specialization... so you have thousands, if not millions of possible class/spec combinations.

Has someone really worked all those kinks out? 

I want to say they just nerf/buff things as they become apparent and that there really isn't any kind of grand balance scheme in the backend.

[pxib]

As much as Sirlin's a blowhard he has a few good points. In this article for example he tries to define balance:

A multiplayer game is balanced if a reasonably large number of options available to the player are viable–especially, but not limited to, during high-level play by expert players.

By this definition, WoW certainly is balanced around groups, just like its older cousin DAoC. One on one, class matches are unfair (Here's a sarcastic video), but a PvP group does not live or die based on its class composition. It depends, instead, on the synergies between classes and the skill players have exploiting precisely the one-on-one imbalances that make dueling (and soloing on PvP servers) so frustrating.

I use the term "skill" interchangably with "experience". Playing Go requires neither lightning reflexes nor much memorization of rules, but nobody fairly complains that it's any less skill-based than Billiards or Baseball. And even in those twitchy games, a seasoned player with an understanding of nuance and consequence can outfox a more twitch-capable newb.

If more options are viable, then the more experience a player has the more skill he will display in exercising the correct option at the correct moment as the correct response to the correct opponent's behavior.

That you play with or against a bunch of newbs doesn't mean that game's bad... only that it's popular. I'm sure high-end WoW is as skill-based as any FPS. The skills are just different.

And where it's obvious that only a skilled player can lead a moving target the right distance to make that perfect shot, or properly time a perfect rocket jump... skill level in MMOs is more subtle. That anybody could, theoretically,  choose the right ability to use at the right moment doesn't mean that any but a skilled player actually does.

[Triforcer]

Its interesting that if this thread was about PvE not taking any skill hundreds would come out of the woodwork to combat the exploiter griefer pk that said it 

Come on people.  Anyone who says that each class only has a few skills and people just mash buttons are retarded or coming down off of an ego-bruising PvP death and trying to cry themselves to sleep.

Watch videos of the GOOD players sometimes (especially with classes like druids where successful PvP is difficult).  I am not good (but slowly improving, even after all this time most people do NOT expect engineering)  but even I know i have to combat every class differently, first of all.  And even within each class, you have to consider factors (hunter dead zone, which lock pet is out, etc.).  Its not chess, but there are rock-paper scissors aspects that you have to consider.  I've seen phenomenal PvP players and mediocre ones (wearing the same gear), and its fun to watch.

I've always said that WoW PvP has been the most fun for me since UO.  I don't know why but it seems like there are so many strategies and counters that its always fresh.  I'm sorry you died today but that isn't the same as "OMFG PVP TAKS NO SKILLZ".

[Ironwood]

Possibly.  But watching a Level 60 Rogue in full BWL gear using Sinister Strike and Eviserate to gank people with twin swords and stunlock is as much fun as watching paint dry.

See Grim.

Sure, he can beat two warriors wielding two sulfuron hammers, but it's boring as fuck to watch.

[stray]

I suppose that I play a Druid because they require a little more vigilance than usual (Well...That, and I can't make up my mind. It's a good class for the indecisive). There's nothing I can truly depend on with them. There's no set battle plan, counter, shapeform, or gear set to prepare around them. Except the big heals, I guess. Other than that, it probably represents the best tactical gameplay WoW has to offer. Other classes tilt more to the strategizing + character end side (not that they aren't tactical at all. It's just that all of those little moments where you have to think on your feet with other classes is like that all the time with a Druid).

Still doesn't take a lot of skill though. 

[Typhon]

It might not require a lot of skill, but a fair amount of skill can be brought to bear (ha! a druid pun!).  I play a feral/back-up healer in a 5 man-only "guild" and I shift alot.  It's not so important what I'm doing right now, but knowing what I need to be doing 5 seconds from now and how to get there that's important (if I'm bear right now, but primary needs an invigorate, but I'm getting beaten hard, how do I get into elf-form for long enough to invogorate, and what else to I squeeze out while I'm there).

[Calantus]

I win almost every 1v1 PVP engagement I engage in. And this is over multiple lvl 60 classes, very different gear levels, very rarely 1v1 specced, and against all sorts of classes and gear levels. The people I tend to lose against... are the same people all the time, because they tend to be better than me (or are as good and are playing a better class/spec/gearset for it). With cross server battlegrounds with me in pretty lowish gear (my best geared char is only well geared for raid healing zzz)... I own. Hard. People have run up to me in all sorts of gear and been slapped down (for reference, cross server BGs came out 1 week after my server's first Nef kill). Now I'm no superhuman WoW PVP 1v1 prodigy. I have people who regularly beat me, but the average joe doesn't stand a chance. Why? Skill, and playing a class where skill matters. It's as simple as that.

As a side note I'd say play a healer if you want your skill to matter, any other class can easily be held at the mercy of someone being just too geared... but healing solves a lot of problems. Even on a SL warlock in tier 2 and trimmings I've felt helpless far more times than any healer I've played with blues. Sometimes you can just see your DPS, and their DPS, and they break your CC and... well you lose and there's nothing you can do.

[Chenghiz]

I had this big detailed post all ready and then I noticed that there was a second page to this thread. Oh well, carry on.

[trias_e]

I'm not sure if this will be interesting or enjoyable to watch or even useful in the slightest, but here's a mage that I believe displays 'skill' in playing:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7751967026590643950&q=mage+PvP&hl=en

The music sucks and you can just skip the first 20 seconds.

[Fordel]

Its interesting that if this thread was about PvE not taking any skill hundreds would come out of the woodwork to combat the exploiter griefer pk that said it 

Why would you think that? PvE takes even LESS skill then PvP. At least with PvP you have the human factor, with PvE, once you've done it once, you've done it for the 100th time to the 1,000,000th time.

[stray]

PvE only takes skill when you have a non taunting + fearing Fury Warrior as your tank.

In fact, not only does it take a little skill to survive that, but sometimes it can even be *gasp*.....Fun. :-D

[Triforcer]

Its interesting that if this thread was about PvE not taking any skill hundreds would come out of the woodwork to combat the exploiter griefer pk that said it 

Why would you think that? PvE takes even LESS skill then PvP. At least with PvP you have the human factor, with PvE, once you've done it once, you've done it for the 100th time to the 1,000,000th time.

You must not be familiar with the 2000-2003 (roughly) MMOG era that I dub the UO Therapy Session.  In that time, every dev bent over backwards to not offend PvEers in any way ("offend" included the idea that PvPers were even having fun on another separate server in your game).  In that inglorious time, it was verboten to claim that PvP took any skill (it was all exploiter gankers) and it was worth the life of a dev to imply that crafting or PvE took even less skill.

That's why I love WoW so much.  In the Therapy era, if someone recited a third-hand story about a miner getting pked in UO, devs would change (or start out with) that person's chosen PvE mechanics to placate them (if the PvEer had TWO STACKS or more of garlic looted from their corpse, the devs would send a team to a PvEer's house with cookies and warm milk).  When PvEers whined in WoW about Gadget guards, the devs responded "learn tactix newb". 

[Strazos]

I am so sick of boring PvE content. Shit like LDoN orpretty much any WoW instance. That nonsense puts me to sleep.

Quite literally. I've nodded off in the middle of LDoN/Instance runs.

[stray]

Group members going to sleep makes things a bit fun and challenging as well.

[Ironwood]

I had this big detailed post all ready and then I noticed that there was a second page to this thread. Oh well, carry on.

Nice Rogue.

[Chenghiz]

I am so sick of boring PvE content. Shit like LDoN orpretty much any WoW instance. That nonsense puts me to sleep.

Quite literally. I've nodded off in the middle of LDoN/Instance runs.

You probably wouldn't nod off in the newer WoW instances. But hey, it takes all kinds right?

Nice Rogue.

Most of it's a lie but I do have those claws. Turning into a tiger generates a lot of 'wtf tiger' comments. It's fun.

[Morfiend]

I had this big detailed post all ready and then I noticed that there was a second page to this thread. Oh well, carry on.

Nice Rogue.

I want a gif of my rogue. How do I do that?

[Chenghiz]

http://www.curse-gaming.com/en/wow/addons-2090-1-wow-model-viewer-in-limbo.html

It's a program that reads the MPQ files from WoW. You can view mobs or player models, customise the characters' looks and gear, and so on. As far as legality goes I think it's a bit dodgy but it doesn't modify the MPQs at all.

[Merusk]

If you're saying it's dodgy because you somehow think that looking at files hosted on your machine with another program is somehow unsavory.. well, the RIAA and other DMCP champs want to send you a valentine.

So long as you're not futzing things to gain any advantage, there's nothing dodgy about it.  And if you ARE futzing with things, and get an advantage, then well, that's a whole 'nother discussion.

[Chenghiz]

You're making the mistake of thinking that I agree with the idea. I don't know if Blizzard minds you digging into their data files or not but I personally have no qualms with it. It's just a nice thing to point it out to other people who might have such qualms.

[stray]

You probably wouldn't nod off in the newer WoW instances. But hey, it takes all kinds right?

Have you actually played them or what? What's so different about them? Content? New maps and skins? Mobs have bigger bonuses and more hitpoints (is that your definition of enhanced gameplay?)? What?

Anyhow, I don't think PvE will ever be worth getting all excited about unless the Tank and Pulling game is completely tossed aside. Completely. Which was my point above about the stupid Fury Warrior. People should trade punches. People should feel overwhelming pressure. Everyone should be using all of their skills, bandages, and potions. People should be falling. Druids should be battle rezzing, etc..

Scarlet Monastery/Armory, for example, should feel like a long action movie sequence where 5 heroes storm in and manage to lay waste against dozens of soldiers at a time until they face off Herod (who should do something far more predictable than calling out his spin attacks btw).

No creeping along room by room, pulling two or three mobs at a time shit. Who the fuck raids an enemy base like that?? It's shit like this that puts guys like Strazos to sleep.

No tanking. No waiting. It should be constant action with little breathing room or "resting time". Everything should be built around this fast type of gameplay. It should be God of War (except party based). Raiding the Scarlet Monastery should be like Normandy. It should be like the action sequence at the end of Equilibrium (ok, maybe not that ridiculous).

[Chenghiz]

Well, there's the fight against C'thun. He sits in the middle of the room invincible while tentacles spawn and eat people, shoot lasers, and knock people into the air. The only way you can actually hurt him is by getting eaten and then killing some tentacles in his stomach which make him temporarily vulnerable. And it isn't tanked.

Raid encounters seem to be getting more dynamic, less formulaic, and require more of the player than simply following instructions and punching the same buttons over and over. It's also worth pointing out that WoW has already expanded the mechanics of boss fights pretty far beyond what was ever found in EQ.

[stray]

Who actually has to be "eaten" though, and what else is everyone else doing in the meantime?

Secondly, C'thun is barely played by anyone. Good for them if they hired some console designer to make raids a little more interesting, but 99% of the rest of the game isn't like that. It's still the same ole, same ole. And even with dynamic encounters, the actual mechanics of MMO combat still doesn't compare to other combat games. When Shadowfang Keep starts resembling a knees-deep-in-shit Survival shooter, or Scarlet Monestery starts resembling the Dirty Dozen, then I'll consider it fun and challenging. Otherwise, I'm just gonna invite really shitty warriors to my groups from now on. 

[Chenghiz]

Who actually has to be "eaten" though, and what else is everyone else doing in the meantime?

Anyone can be eaten, and since everyone can do damage of some sort they're all useful, though some more than others of course. Everyone else is fighting an army of tentacles and hurting C'thun when he's vulnerable.

Secondly, C'thun is barely played by anyone. Good for them if they hired some console designer to make raids a little more interesting, but 99% of the rest of the game isn't like that. It's still the same ole, same ole.

Of course this is a problem. Unfortunately they don't seem to be in the practice of changing how older fights work, and I can only imagine the unholy uproar if they did. They seem to be treating Burning Crusade as a chance to fix all the stuff that was broken with classes, dungeons, raid mechanics, and the like.. but of course you have to level to 60 and beyond to even see that stuff, which is disappointing. At some point it's just going to be stupidly hard to start playing WoW and experience the content at the 'end-game.' </rant>

And even with dynamic encounters, the actual mechanics of MMO combat still doesn't compare to other combat games.

I find it deep enough to be enjoyable, but I'm the strategy-gamer who's dabbled in FPS games, not the other way around.

[Merusk]

You're arguing pve vs a guy who just plain can't stand pve, or RPG mechanics without a storyline.  There's really no point.

You're making the mistake of thinking that I agree with the idea. I don't know if Blizzard minds you digging into their data files or not but I personally have no qualms with it. It's just a nice thing to point it out to other people who might have such qualms.

Ok then.

[stray]

Well....I was determined to make it an argument at first, but Chengiz has softened me up a bit  . All in all, this isn't a bad conversation. Whether we still disagree or not.

[caladein]

http://www.curse-gaming.com/en/wow/addons-2090-1-wow-model-viewer-in-limbo.html

It's a program that reads the MPQ files from WoW. You can view mobs or player models, customise the characters' looks and gear, and so on. As far as legality goes I think it's a bit dodgy but it doesn't modify the MPQs at all.

http://www.curse-gaming.com/en/wow/addons-5214-ctprofile-model-viewer.html

This mod auto-magically pulls the info from a CTProfile you might have, so you don't need to set it up twice (apart from setting what your character actually looks like).

[lamaros]

Of course there is skill in WoW, but it's only up to a point.

It's a small range. Then it comes down to gear and class imbalances. The larger number of people in a battle the more teamwork begins to play a part. But gear is King.

I play with an Australian guild. We get bad latency because there are no Au servers. We play BGs against people in the US and we have a disadvantage. If there was a lot of skill "twitch like" then this would be a rather big one. And our warriors and others often complain because you can't judge distance and such often because of this, but it's not huge. However we lose ABs when we go as a group if we come up against geared enemies, NOTHING we can do.

But there is a little bit of skill, to a point.

Last night me and a Mage let a sortie on stables just before the end of the map, we were on vent and timed it so that when we got in I feared the priest and he polyed the pally. Then I capped while he kept the priest away and repolyed the pally. I capped and the rest of the team rushed in and we took the spot, going on to win a little bit later 2000 to 1980.

I like to think there was some skill there, and there was. But.

If the pally had bubble up and was good he would have used it and stopped me capping and we'd have lost. If he couldn't then there was nothing he could do. If he could have but didn't then you could say we had more skill. If the guy resisted my fear or the mage's poly then can you say were were less skilled? We can just blame the RNG or the other player's gear.

On a macro level is there skill in knowing that getting a other group to zerg GM and then rushing Stables with us two will give us enough time to cap and win? Yeah, maybe you can. On the micro level can you say that player skill level plays a part too, but the points you need to master individualy are not as fine as in FPS games.

As for PvE taking skill? Sure it does. I can take two groups of equally geared players, same classes and specs, in to the same instance and get wildly different results. Because even though the skills of WoW are pretty easy to master, most people still can't master them.

How many priests don't realise that you can use healing aggro to get off threatless heals on a MT using fade? Too many.
How many shamen don't have the awareness to know when to stop dpsing and to backup heal? Too many.
How many warriors cannot, despite the mind numbing ease of it all, tank?
How many people just fuck upp generaly all the time, getting aggro, making bad pulls, etc? Nearly everyone to some degree.

PvE doesn't take skill most of the time because people never challenge themselves if they dont have to and WoW doesn't make you - but you can force yourself if you really want it. The problem is there's no risk v reward, and very few people have the sense of fun to try it just for its own sake.

Now I'm all for doing away with the whole stupid setup of trash mobs in groups & pats then bosses system that blizzard currently uses, and I hope that there will be more fun and inventive things in the expansion, but to say there is no skill currently is wrong - it's just that any lowest common denominator system will never require you to actually use your skills to succeed.

[Chenghiz]

Nice find, caladein.

[Zane0]

Every video game genre is mired in convention.  It's just as hard to suspend disbelief when I'm gunning down my 5000th Nazi in an MoH derivative.  Many people seem to think that since MMOs emulate "worlds", there should be a perfect sense of flow, realism, and opportunity.

If experience has shown us anything however, this is much harder to feasibly design into MMOs in particular.

[stray]

Even if it was harder, that's none of my concern. On my end of things, I want something more challenging and fun. Why should I really care if that's harder to design or not? I'm not a developer. I'm just someone who wants a good game. If I order bourguignon, don't give me a fucking burnt hamburger just because "it's easier to make".   

It's a copout though, if you ask me. The only reason why so many mmo's are designed this way isn't because developers aren't willing to be creative or challenge themselves. It could be that in some cases, but I think it's due to other factors (namely, current market popularity and the people whose job is to pay attention to nothing else but that). Technically, there is no reason to make a Diku mmo.

Secondly, we're not even talking about games that help suspend disbelief. Or are we? Last I checked, this was still a conversation about tactical options and player side skill.

[lamaros]

Many people seem to think that since MMOs emulate "worlds", there should be a perfect sense of flow, realism, and opportunity.

Not sure who that's meant to be directed at.

We are just mentioning how we would rather see a few new things in the game design rather than the typical. So that when you go into a new instance you don't know that all you have to do is clear trash mobs, usualy by simple tanking and then nuking, sometimes with aoe, and then maybe chatting briefly about "the strat" that may or may not be needed for a boss.

BRD is probably my favourite instance in this regard, creativity wise. It's still very linear in the combat mechanics but otherwise it has many fun things and many fun paths.

[El Gallo]

PvE and PvP in WoW both rely very heavily on one skill: coordination.  Group vs group or group vs mob, the people who can work together as one entity will prevail over the group that cannot every time.

The problem is that on very rare occasions you get two equally coordinated groups and gear dictates the outcome.  But 99% of the people who complain about gear imbalances have no chance of beating a good team naked.