Age of Conan: Class List

[Margalis]

I think you are taking the race thing a bit too seriously. What if I'm a black dude who likes to play black dudes but I want to be a Cimmerian? I can't?

[stray]

I think you are taking the race thing a bit too seriously. What if I'm a black dude who likes to play black dudes but I want to be a Cimmerian? I can't?

Yeah. Why couldn't Nubians and Stygians be sufficient? Or any of the other half of dozen African based races?


What if Dwarves were tall in EQ or WoW? What if Orcs had tan skin and blonde hair, and looked like He-Man? What if Elves could look like Undead zombies?

What if I played a WW2 strategy game, and Stalin could be the leader of the Japanese, Churchill the Chinese, Roosevelt the French, and Hitler the Americans?


The setting has to mean at least something.

[edit] Something like the Eve morphing features would be ideal, I think. Each race has a lot of adjustability and diversity, but still within some parameters. A Gallente will always look like a Gallente, a Minmatar will always look like a Minmatar, etc..

[Venkman]

I completely agree with Stray, though I don't know crap about Conan. If you're going to go through the trouble of using an IP, use the friggin IP.

The only reason I can see them taking the lazy way out is because they didn't set out to make a Conan IP. They set out to find some way to justify making a new MMO at all, maybe to try and kick the stain of AO they've been carrying all this time, and the Conan IP was the cheapest, or available. As in, they may like Conan, but only enough to let them expand their library of titles, not to iterate it the right way.

Not that I care any less about AoC because of this. It's nice not knowing anything about the lore. Ignorance is bliss :) It just rankles the inner geek.

[Margalis]

IMO they are doing a very good job of sticking to the IP and they clearly like the IP quite a bit. You guys are talking about a slider that goes too far. Seriously. There is time to fix it but even if it isn't fixed, is it that hard to believe that a Cimmerian had sex with a Nubian and this guy was the result?

Cimmerians are just humans. Orcs are Orcs and Elves are Elves. Your comparisons are way off. Orcs don't come with bright orange skin but humans clearly come in dark shades.

I think there is a huge difference between saying an Orc can't be a black guy and a human can't be...especially when the races in the original IP are portrayed in very stereotypical fashion. Cimmerians are just humans.

[stray]

IMO they are doing a very good job of sticking to the IP and they clearly like the IP quite a bit. You guys are talking about a slider that goes too far. Seriously. There is time to fix it but even if it isn't fixed, is it that hard to believe that a Cimmerian had sex with a Nubian and this guy was the result?

No, Cimmerians were the most xenophobic race in the entire world of Hyboria. They loathed everything (including themselves), rarely traded, toiled all day, and rarely ventured out from their own territory (as a sidenote: It doesn't make any sense that they are even a playable race at all....But what the hell, that's beside the point for now).

Conan was the exception to the rule. Mainly because he was a fortune seeking thief. As far as cultural identity goes, he felt more affinity for the Asgardians (the Norse). He had a lot of misgivings about his own people -- for the very fact that they were unadventurous pricks. The only Cimmerian who would encounter a Nubian, let alone breed with one, would be Conan himself. And maybe a couple of other guys. That's not enough fucking to supply a sub-race.

Most importantly, and bear with me here, if that kind of cross breeding had happened, it'd have to have some small explanation in our own reality. There would have to be a race of real African Celts now to explain it (seriously...).

When I say the Cimmerians are the Celts, I mean exactly that. Not modeled after the Celts. Not symbolic representations of the Celts. Not like the Celts. They are the Celts. Or rather, they're what the Celts were before they were called "Celts". The "fantasy" part of Howard's story is that they were Proto-Celts, in a mythical age when humankind had been advanced somewhat. That there has never been a race of Nubian-Celts would indicate that there were no Nubian-Celts then. Not enough to make any difference at least.

===

Personally speaking, the lack of cultural richness pisses me off because I can't be a Hyrkanian. I want to be that Mongol guy that asks Conan: "What is good in life?"

*sigh*

Not this fucking game for sure. I can't even play a Mongol.....Unless he's Cimmerian.

[stray]

Listen though, I don't expect them to implement the entire gamut of human proto-races. I just think Cimmeria, Stygia, and Aquilonia are too broad of a stroke.

That's Scotland-Ireland, France, and Egypt.

Call me a lore freak if you want, but it's just woefully dismissive.

One could still paint a broad stroke, and still manage to cram a few more races in there to represent things. When you have gigantic continents in the Conan world that represent dozens and dozens of Asian and African races, then at the very least, include ONE of each Asian and African race (Include Hyrkanians and Kush, for example). When you have Norse themes throughout the Conan stories (represented by at least 4 different nations), then at the very least, include one of them (Asgard).

It's good for content, and it's good for gameplay.


Hell, do you really think the "gameplay" will be all it's promised to be when they make decisions like this? If they are willing to dismiss major elements of the game world, then they can't be trusted with much else. Don't be blind. There has never been a company in the history of ever that made those kind of sacrifices, and at the time, delivered "good gameplay".

[EDIT] Also, you need the Nemedians in there. Aquilonia (modeled after the Carolingian Franks) makes zero fucking sense without Nemedia (modeled after the German Holy Roman Empire). They're constantly at war with, and define, one another.

[Velorath]

I can't really get too worked up over black Cimmerians.  Just pretend they're Kushites or something.  It's not like they're going to have flashing neon signs over them in game saying that they're Cimmerians.  Besides, any feelings of immersion in the lore are going to dissipate as soon as the people in your group start typing anyway.   Or probably even before that actually when you see all the stupid fucking joke names that people give their characters thinking they're clever.  If the playerbase of pretty much every MMO up until now is any indication, a black Cimmerian is one of the smaller problems.

[stray]

You're a better man than me, Vel. I want to go all pickaxe handle on their asses.

Besides Conan himself, the whole point of Howard's world was to place all the myths and most historical periods of human civilization into one time period and setting. Where Franks, Amazons, Norsemen, Classical Greeks, Mongols, Gypsies, and morbid Pharaohs could coexist.

That's the Hyborian Age. The way he envisioned it, it'd be one of the cooler MMO settings one could play in.

Instead, Funcom had to do it.

[Margalis]

Dude, GET A FUCKING GRIP!

Seriously...what is it they did exactly? Left out some races (oh noes!) and let you move a slider all the way to the right.

[stray]

No, they left out practically all races (just to give you the breadth, they amount to at least 40) -- and took out whatever identity the 3 included races had of their own. The entire cultural and political landscape, and reasons for giving characters any logical reason to exist, struggle, or build are being left out. "Cimmerian" doesn't even mean "Cimmerian" in any way in this game. It's been so watered down that even World of Warcraft looks deep in comparison.

You don't seem to understand that this world consists of more than the just meaningless combat activities between generic avatars. This is not "Age of Inconsequential Sword Swinging Stickmen". It's Age of Conan.

I don't need to get a grip. This site has witnessed the weeping and gnashing of teeth of ten million Star Wars fanbois crying about Jedis and Uncle Beru in 500 pages of posts. I'm entitled to talk about Conan in a motherfucking Conan thread.

[EDIT] And don't get me started on mages.

[stray]

/Stray getting a grip

Margalis, I'm in such a state of deep seated jadedness and hate about mmo's I just can't stand it anymore. I'm not exagerrating or trying to be witty here. My jadedness is REAL. In one way or another, whether it be in terms of world, gameplay, or lore, I feel like I keep getting burned by this industry. Everything sucks so badly it hurts....But screwing with an IP I really adore is a burn of the highest order.

/Stray losing his grip

Now fuck this shit. Kill, Kill, Kill!!!!

[damijin]

But screwing with an IP I really adore is a burn of the highest order.

You know what you must do!

Destroy
The Internet.

(also, destroy Hollywood and most book publishers. they seem determined to fuck up everything they can get their hands on. THEY SENT CROCODILE DUNDEE TO L.A.)

[stray]

Update:

Whew. The bloodlust has subsided. I think it was the Pepsi I drank earlier. I usually stay away from caffiene.

Needless to say, but AoC is dead to me.

Also, Gods and Heroes and Fury seem to have interesting combat systems as well...But without the extra baggage of fucking with Conan. I guess I'll just divert my attention to them (if any MMO's at all).

Thanks for listening.

P.S. I still haven't seen Crocodile Dundee in L.A.

[Signe]

Well, thanks a lot!  I am starting my day confused!   

[stray]

Well, thanks a lot!  I am starting my day confused!   

Here's one last try, I guess:

1) Margalis seems to be under the impression that "humans" are just as generic in Conan as they are in Warcraft. He says Cimmerians are "just humans" -- But it's much deeper than that. They are humans, but they are also Celts. Just like Hyrkanians are not "just humans". They humans, and they are Mongols. Asgardians are not "just humans". They are human, and they are Norse.

2) Since there aren't Orcs, Dwarves, and Elves in the Hyborian Age, ethnicity is the Conan equivalent of a typical fantasy game's level of race differentiation. You should compare human races in Conan as you would compare Gnomes and Trolls in Warcraft.

3) Further, instead of adding in an African race, Funcom decided to let Celts have superficial African features instead. It's a lazy and insensitive move. It's taking all the meaning out of both of cultures. And more importantly: There's more to wanting to be an African character in the Conan world than just skin color. It's the African culture represented that means something.

4) And lastly, totally leaving out Asian themed races makes me a sad panda. Or mad panda. Either/or.

[Venkman]

I think it's simpler than that. Some people feel the IP should be more adhered to than others. That's really all.

For me, like I said, it's aggravating to me that they wouldn't follow the IP more. But it doesn't impact my potential enjoyment of the game. It's like DAoC. There was absolutely no reason that game needed to be called "Camelot". I think they merely used that to grease the wheels of entering the genre proper. It annoyed me that all they used from Arthurian legend were some general names, as nobody would have missed it if they hadn't.

I think the game to come closest to presenting a consistent view into the IP was SWG. We've argued the specifics of game mechanics already, but at least you knew you were in a Star Wars game, whether it was the medical center, a parked Tie Fighter, or a landspeeder.

I'm hoping AoC comes at least somewhat closer to that than it does DAoC.

[Velorath]

You're a better man than me, Vel. I want to go all pickaxe handle on their asses.

I just know the guy running around named azzrap0r saying "lol that's gay" in general chat is more of a problem to me than seeing black characters who might be Cimmerians.  Not to mention the people naming themselves Connan, Thulssa Dooom, or Red Sonnja.  At least you might be able to enjoy the first 20 douchetard-free levels if nothing else.

[Engels]

You know, the more I look at this information, the more I have to grudgingly agree with Stray.

Looking at this map, it seems that the entire geography of the world was based AROUND Africa.

That said, and please correct me if I'm wrong, Howard drew most of his lore from influences other than what can be generously called 'African'. Sure, he included Egypt, but seriously, what lore was coming out of Somalia or Zimbabwe that Howard could have honestly drawn from? Compare that to the well documented libraries filled with stuff on the Celts, Pictish, Franks, Arabs and Jews, and Africa sort of gets shouldered out of the equation, with the exception of Egypt.

So, I guess the question is wether you would actually prefer to have playable races that have a full rich book lore to draw from and then throw in African blacks with a threadbare politically correct nod, or would you prefer FunCom to be honest and simply not include a race that wasn't explored well enough by the author?

Blame the author if he didn't make enough use of the Munhumutapa Empire, but don't blame FunCom for that.

[Strazos]

And even then, it somewhat difficult from a historical standpoint to really call Egypt "African."

[Modern Angel]

Understand that Howard lived in the same murky world of quasi-racist Darwinist theory that Lovecraft did. It informed his work completely. That's not a value judgement (different time, different place, I love the Conan stuff regardless and always will) but it's to give you an idea of why Cimmerians aren't "just humans" anymore than Sygians or Hyrkanians or Kushites are. They're all different. It's not some sideshow to the IP; it IS the IP. When he refers to a "mongrel race" he fucking well means it.

[angry.bob]

Looking at this map, it seems that the entire geography of the world was based AROUND Africa.

It only seems that way because the Pangaean geography resembles Africa. If you remember what each of those areas is supposed to relate to, the big subcontinent on the left splits at the river between Zingara and Argos, and the whole thing does some stretching. ZIngara becomes Spain,  Argos  ends up where Greece is, Aquilonia makes up Franco-Germanic areas, and what's south of that becomes Arabia and North Africa. But yeah, the Pangaea looks mike an Age of Exploration map of Africa.

[Margalis]

I think segregating player races in a way that corresponds to real races would be trouble. Again, you can only play a black character if you come from one of the psuedo-African countries where every other player is black? I can't begin to imagine what kind of trolling would take place.

Robert Howard was many things but enlightened on race isn't one of them. It's hard to read Solomon Kane stories even though I like them because it is inevitably Solomon Kane schooling some black savages.

I think this is an example of giving players what they want. Allowing black players to only have avatars that look like them in they come from central-casting stereotype big black strong silent type may not be a great idea.

---
That said, how many black characters have you ever seen in any online game? I'm having trouble thinking of *one*. Seriously.

[Modern Angel]

The best is Guild Wars: Nightfall. Set in some African analogue, all of the default player skins are at least slightly dusky. And yet all white folk upon entry. It was seriously fucking sad and (I think) says a whole lot about what people ACTUALLY think about race. There was no shortage of Asian avatars for Factions but playing a black dude? NO WAY!

But, again, the whole race thing in Howard isn't some sideshow to the story. The history of Hyboria ends when the world's taken over by savage half-men (read: Picts, non-white races). If you want to tone down the unpleasant underpinnings of that idea it's easy but you can't remove it wholesale and remain true to the source material.

[Engels]

That said, how many black characters have you ever seen in any online game? I'm having trouble thinking of *one*. Seriously.

Erudites in EQ were huge. I always resented EQ2 for making Erudites NOT black, just some wierd pasty skinned alien race. That felt like a betrayal to me. Anarchy Online (from FunCom again) had a way to make a black toon if you so wished. I think Asheron's Call also had this option, but I may be wrong.

DAoC didn't, for obvious reasons and Wow doesn't even fit the rubric.

[Margalis]

What I mean was I don't think I've ever seen someone choose to play a black character in a game where they could just as easily play a white one. Erudites might be different as they have certain racial benfits, but as a purely cosmetic change I'm not sure I've seen any black character.

To me that isn't very damning though, mostly it says that not many black people play MMORPGs I would guess.

[Venkman]

Demographic could be part of it. Milieu could be another. Outside of the Hiradrim (sp?), how many non-White Human races were there in Tolkien lore? And Arthurian? And Asian (for the Far East set)?

Then look at other genres, like, say, driving games, sports, and the GTA-esque RPGs. Much more multi-cultural.

So I don't think it says just something about player choices. I think it's based on what the designers get inspired by.

[stray]

What I mean was I don't think I've ever seen someone choose to play a black character in a game where they could just as easily play a white one. Erudites might be different as they have certain racial benfits, but as a purely cosmetic change I'm not sure I've seen any black character.

To me that isn't very damning though, mostly it says that not many black people play MMORPGs I would guess.

I played a Human Bounty Hunter in SWG. He was black. I did it purely for cosmetic reasons.

--

You could take a look at FacesofWoW and find enough black people who play it. Not a lot, but then again, not a lot of people post pictures of themselves on game boards either.

WoW has it's own lack of care as far as black human avatar options go though. Females are OK, but males can only look black if you go the Sam Jackson route (bald). There aren't any fade, dread, or fro hairdos. If you choose one of the hairdos available, with dark skin, then you just end up looking like an Indian (east Indian that is). That sucks.

Point being, one reason why you might not see many black avatars in WoW is because Blizzard hasn't really done a good job at making them look cool.

Demographic could be part of it. Milieu could be another. Outside of the Hiradrim (sp?), how many non-White Human races were there in Tolkien lore? And Arthurian? And Asian (for the Far East set)?

That's one of the cool things about REH though. He did try to pay tribute to other cultures, in a time when it wasn't even thought of much.

[Glazius]

That said, how many black characters have you ever seen in any online game? I'm having trouble thinking of *one*. Seriously.

Well, CoH has the Back Alley Brawler working one of the newbie zones, and a sprinkling of black contacts, and of course you can make a black hero or villain, to varying degrees of seriousness. Frosty the Froman was running around the test server while the winter event was running.

--GF

[caladein]

I think Asheron's Call also had this option, but I may be wrong.

It did, you were either White, Asian (more Japanese-like then anything), or Black.

As a mild aside, I think I've only played two MMOs (CoX, I think, and MxO) where I can have a character with a decent Hispanic tan-look. They'd either come out looking like a Native American, or like they have really bad sunburn.

[Mr. Right]

Also, Gods and Heroes and Fury seem to have interesting combat systems as well...But without the extra baggage of fucking with Conan. I guess I'll just divert my attention to them (if any MMO's at all).

The devs are already in dmg control mode.  Expect a rushed release with the usual "not  at release feature" and "to be fixed later" bugs and unbalances.  It's an other try at the classic : we don't have enough money to do the game, please help up by paying four our game even if 50% of it is missing.  In one year and half we'll add an other 30%.

No, I'm not in beta.  It's just very clear when you read interviews and browse the official forum.

[damijin]

Lineage 2 has no distinctly Asian looking characters in it, despite being played mostly by Asian people. On top of that, the only race with remotely black features are the orcs, who can wear dreads, corn rows, and other hair styles. Everyone else is Caucasian.

I tend to agree with Stray though. I don't think many people put much importance on their race's race, just whether or not it looks cool. If you could make a bad-ass lookin alaskan native, people would do it.

If your character looks like a white guy with dark skin and a bad wig, not only will he not look cool... but he'll look almost comically "wrong" compared to how people of that skin tone look in the real world. In short, it's more likely to be used for a tool of racist jokes by less than mature players because it looks, well, funny.

[Xuri]

I seem to recall it being mentioned that Funcom focused on Stygia, Aquilonia and Cimmeria because those three were the dominant nations represented in the works of Robert E. Howard, which apparently is a required read for everyone on the AoC team, and which they are trying to "stay true to" as much as they can.

However, there are reputedly over 40+ sliders in the "advanced section" of character creation in AoC. Chances are you'll be able to make a black-looking character if you want to. Granted, it will still be of Stygian, Aquilonian or Cimmerian origin - but hey - dismiss the part of your character screen saying "Stygian/Aquilonian/Cimmerian" and leave the slave ship imagining your character being of other origins. Or wait for an expansion. *shrug*

Some quotes:

In Hyborian Adventures, which is the first in several titles planned on the Age of Conan brand, the playable races are Aquilonian, Cimmerian, and Stygian. Over time, this will be increased. They will have different looks and hometowns, but the choice of classes will also be different for the various races. For instance, only the Stygians will have access to the mage class and its branching specializations.

Gamespot, 11th May 2005 (Gaute Godager)

For all the different races and both genders, there is a multitude of options available to tweak your appearance. You can select different color of your skin, scale many parts of your body (chest, shoulders, legs, etc.), add scarring, tattoos, body jewelry and, naturally, alter your face by changing the appearance of your features. Should you wish to go even more in-depth, you can enter the super-advanced mode during character creation, where there will be, I think, more than 40 different sliders and buttons to manipulate your appearance. You do not have to go through this detailed process; if you like, you can simply press a random selection button, giving yourself a unique-looking character on the fly.

IGN, 21st November 2005 (Gaute Godager)

Kushites and the like may be seen in an expansion,...*snip*

AoC Forums, 23rd August 2006 (Athelan, developer)

[stray]

I seem to recall it being mentioned that Funcom focused on Stygia, Aquilonia and Cimmeria because those three were the dominant nations represented in the works of Robert E. Howard, which apparently is a required read for everyone on the AoC team, and which they are trying to "stay true to" as much as they can.

Nonsense. The lands of Cimmeria, Aquilonia, and Stygia weren't dominant themes at all. Funcom's choices are about as superficial as you can get. The only reason why they chose Cimmeria and Aquilonia is because "that's what Conan was". As if everything should revolve around him in a game with this many people. Conan had conflicts with Stygian cultists, but Stygia itself wasn't such an exclusive theme in the books.

Like I mentioned somewhere above, Cimmerians were a fairly uncivilized barbarian people on the northwest tip of the world and were rarely seen. They raided towns near the borders, but didn't venture out into the world much. They hated strangers. Only Conan stands out.

Aquilonians were one part of a pseudo civilized region modeled after western Europe in the late medieval period. Aquilonians were like Carolingian Franks (a bit more urbane and cultured though), Nemedians were Imperial Germans, and Zingarans were a sort of chivalric Spanish/Portugese race (the coastal areas produced some of the pirate stories though). There were also other regions that popped up a bit (Ophir, Argos, Brythunia, Corinthia). There was never a story in Aquilonia without some rival politician or prince from a neighboring region in it. It would be like trying to tell the history of France without mentioning the Normans.

Stygians are defined by their bordering nations as well (Shem and Kush). Conflict with them did't come because of poltics per se, but because they were the only group that embraced "evil" wholesale. They sought to subjugate others through religion and dark magic. Besides that, Conan had ONE major enemy who was a Stygian -- And he was a sorceror who was offering his services for rivals who sought to depose Conan when he was king of Aquilonia (Thoth Amon in the Phoenix on the Sword). It had nothing to do with Stygia.

Lastly, out of all the regions, I'm pretty sure there were more stories written about Zamora than anything else.

[edit] Another thing, I do not care about "waiting for expansions". Who the fuck waits for expansions? Expansions are for people who already think a game is good and have already made a home in it.

Also, if you don't get some fundamental things right from the start, or if you generalize too much, then the damage will be done by the time an expansion comes out. Having servers packed with thousands upon thousands of red bearded Horse Archer Stygians is not a good base to work from. Both for lore reasons, as well as gameplay reasons. Not if you want to make a Conan game at least.

It's almost similar to Blizzard screwing with class and skillset features from the original WC games when they made classes in WoW. They merged too many features from the original Hero classes to flesh out WoW's normal classes as to make a future WoW implementation of Hero classes not even worth doing.

Lastly, telling me about sliders is missing the whole point of this conversation. Did you even read the thread?

[Strazos]

Did you honestly expect a game to follow your vision of the fictional world? Honestly?

[stray]

Did you honestly expect a game to follow your vision of the fictional world? Honestly?

Nope. Never. Following REH's vision wouldn't be a bad idea though.

Besides, I am not asking for much. I never said I wanted the entire scope of lore implemented. I said I wanted at least a few more races playable at launch. I said I didn't mind a broad stroke -- Just not one as broad as this. They need at least two races to represent the Asian and African territories better. Further, they need to make the currently existing races actually represent what they are supposed to fucking represent -- and not be the only options for people who want to play Asians or Africans. It's not unreasonable to expect Cimmerians to actually be Cimmerians.

[EDIT] You're acting like this is common behavior for game companies and it just isn't. Sure, games tend to be flexible with licenses, but not to this extent. The best analogy I could give is if there was a "Justice League" game, and it didn't include Green Lantern, Flash, or even Batman. Further, the version of Superman in it looked more like Lex Luthor.

No one has have ever fucked up a Justice League game to that extent though. As bad as some could be, they've never stooped that low. I expect fuckups, but not on that scale..

So to answer your question: Yes, I "honestly" thought they would make a Conan game. Maybe a shitty Conan game even....But not some completely wack, distorted piece of shit like this.

Another thing, 23 Classes and they can't take the time to make a few more races?