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Author Topic: 1.12 is live  (Read 19532 times)
bhodi
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Posts: 6817

No lie.


on: August 22, 2006, 07:27:22 AM

Yeap. woo. It could be better, but it could be a lot worse.

Rogues

   * Due to significant talent changes, Rogues will have all talent points refunded and can be re-spent. Training costs for all talent spell replacements have been significantly reduced.
   * Vanish now removes effects that allow the caster to always remain aware of their target (currently Hunter's Mark and Mind Vision).
   * Pickpocket can now be used on targets that are in combat, as long as the rogue remains stealthed.
   * All manner of rogue reagents can be found in locked junkboxes (obtained from pickpocketing).
   * Fixed a bug where the Slice and Dice ability wasn't playing an animation.
   * Lethargy Root has been removed from poison vendors and is now a gray item.
   * Reduced the number of messages in the combat log when using the Vanish ability.
   * Fixed a bug that made Combo Points disappear from your target when using Vanish.
   * Eviscerate: Manual of Eviscerate (Rank 9) now drops off Blackhand Assassins in Black Rock Spire. In addition, Eviscerate now increases in potency with greater attack power.
   * Garrote: The damage from this ability has been increased. In addition, Garrote now increases in potency with greater attack power.
   * Relentless Strikes: This ability will no longer trigger when your finishing move does not hit your target.
   * Rupture: Rupture now increases in potency with greater attack power.
   * Sap: Enemy rogues will now always lose stealth when you Sap them.

I'll be speccing to http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogues2/talents.html?005023104000000320305200255010020105000000000000000

with a possible point shifted to relentless from lethality depending on math, and maybe shifting murder to ruthlessness. I just wish there was some math out there. (Quick edit, relentless is better than lethality)

If I was going to ditch AR (which I might still, it might not be all it's cracked up to be) I'll be going with this:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogues2/talents.html?005313105000000320305200055010020005000000000000000
(with possible pt in murder moved to vile)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2006, 07:59:00 AM by bhodi »
Threash
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Reply #1 on: August 22, 2006, 08:05:18 AM

Thats pretty much the exact same spec i came up with, except im putting 2 points into ruthlessness instead of murder since we have bwl in farm status already.

I am the .00000001428%
bhodi
Moderator
Posts: 6817

No lie.


Reply #2 on: August 22, 2006, 08:36:58 AM

BTW, some quick math on relentless versus lethality that I did showing ruthlessness is twice as good:

n a 30 second window, you get 300 energy, do 5 backstabs and get 5 combo points. With relentless, you get an extra 25 energy out of it, bringing your backstabs every 30s to 5.41.. that means lethality is equal to an extra 0.41 backstabs, or, over time, an extra 7.75% backstab damage (1 - (5 / 5.41)), and since combat dagger, yellow damage is about half your damage, that works out to 3.87% overall damage.

Lethality, in comparison, is 6% extra crit damage per point. If you give yourself a 65% crit chance for backstab, that works out to 3.9% extra backstab damage, which is 1.95% of your overall.
Kail
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Reply #3 on: August 22, 2006, 02:30:31 PM

Personally, I'm more interested in the cross-server battlegrounds.  Those are supposed to go live in this patch, right?  That could be very helpful in cutting down wait times.
Chenghiz
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Reply #4 on: August 22, 2006, 03:30:23 PM

Some people in my server's IRC brought up the point that the cross-server BGs are going to dilute further what little relations there were between Horde and Alliance. As it is we generally just clash in BRM and silithus, and a lot of big names on each side get to know each other through BG action.

Of course, before calling wolf we will need to see what actually happens. :)
Merusk
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Reply #5 on: August 22, 2006, 03:53:08 PM

Some people in my server's IRC brought up the point that the cross-server BGs are going to dilute further what little relations there were between Horde and Alliance. As it is we generally just clash in BRM and silithus, and a lot of big names on each side get to know each other through BG action.

Of course, before calling wolf we will need to see what actually happens. :)

No, I tend to believe this as well.  They also aren't going to be the panacea for Queus on the Alliance side everyone seems to think they'll be.  Just take a look at http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=7928.msg217465#msg217465 Jayce's chart to realize that's going to be the case.  You're still going to have the A:H population imbalance.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Lt.Dan
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Reply #6 on: August 22, 2006, 04:05:46 PM

over time, an extra 7.75% backstab damage (1 - (5 / 5.41)), and since combat dagger, yellow damage is about half your damage, that works out to 3.87% overall damage.

Wouldn't that be an increase of 5.41/5.0 - 1 = 8.2%?
Threash
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Posts: 9165


Reply #7 on: August 22, 2006, 05:05:31 PM

Personally, I'm more interested in the cross-server battlegrounds.  Those are supposed to go live in this patch, right?  That could be very helpful in cutting down wait times.

There was 87 wsg games up on my server about an hour after server up, then it crashed :P

I am the .00000001428%
Lantyssa
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Reply #8 on: August 22, 2006, 05:15:21 PM

I wish I had realized this was coming.  I've been thinking of rejoining, reinstalled and patched everything two days ago since I got a new HD.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Morfiend
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wants a greif tittle


Reply #9 on: August 22, 2006, 05:33:08 PM

If anyone has a link to the patch, I would love you forever. The Blizzard downlaoder is SHIT.
Trippy
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Reply #10 on: August 22, 2006, 05:40:21 PM

If anyone has a link to the patch, I would love you forever. The Blizzard downlaoder is SHIT.
I'm working on it.
Modern Angel
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Reply #11 on: August 22, 2006, 05:40:28 PM

wow wiki has a ton of direct download sites.
Oban
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Reply #12 on: August 22, 2006, 05:47:07 PM


Palin 2012 : Let's go out with a bang!
SurfD
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Reply #13 on: August 22, 2006, 06:03:03 PM

i anticipate that this should be very very fun.

unfortunately, it is currently SOOOOOO buggy that my server has been crashing once every 20 minutes for the last 2 hours, lag is crazy, and while instance queues are nice, STRANGE things are happening in BG's.

I somehow managed to get into a WSG game, an AV game AND an AB game at the EXACT SAME TIME.  Joined an WSG game, but never got ported to WSG.  Manually queued AV and got into av with 1 other horde person (2 horde and 0 alliance).  Then got a quque from my raid and got into AB, where we 5 capped the alliance.  Then the WSG game i had never gotten into ended and it auto booted me out of AB and gave me a deserter debuff to boot :/

Darwinism is the Gateway Science.
Trippy
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Posts: 23612


Reply #14 on: August 22, 2006, 06:06:37 PM

Patches are up.
Kail
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Reply #15 on: August 22, 2006, 06:41:39 PM

Well, aside from some nasty, nasty lag (I was at over 1000 for an entire match), it seems to be working really well for me.  Got into AB less than a minute after signing up, played a match, finished, did other stuff for twenty minutes, signed up for another round and got in within thirty seconds.  Playing Horde, so I don't know how this is looking Alliance-side, but so far, I'm having a lot of fun.

Edit: AB, not AV... oops.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 01:28:00 AM by Kail »
Modern Angel
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Reply #16 on: August 22, 2006, 06:58:42 PM

Wait until the new wears off and the 2:1 A/H ratio is still a 2:1 A/H ratio. Queues will be the same in another week or so. Best thing about it is it offers variety.
Paelos
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Error 404: Title not found.


Reply #17 on: August 22, 2006, 07:17:45 PM

Well I got to see 1 hour of fun world PvP on the EPL towers. Then my server got shutdown.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Flood
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Reply #18 on: August 22, 2006, 08:00:03 PM

I love seeing all the Rogues come out of the woodwork and get all excited again.  Not so much.


Greet what arrives, escort what leaves, and rush in upon loss of contact
Kail
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Posts: 2858


Reply #19 on: August 22, 2006, 08:09:55 PM

Wait until the new wears off and the 2:1 A/H ratio is still a 2:1 A/H ratio. Queues will be the same in another week or so. Best thing about it is it offers variety.

Well, my server is a medium pop PvE server, so outside of prime time the only BGs we have are usually one instance of WSG (and I am SO SICK of WSG it's not even worth contemplating).  It does look like this has improved things a lot; there were eight or more AV instances going constantly in my bracket today.  Queues might not be much better on the Alliance side (though there should still be an overall improvement just due to the line moving faster) , but on the Horde side, it looks very nice.

That said, my server just crashed (again), and I'm getting crazy lag even outside the BGs, so there are clearly some technical issues that need to be resolved.
Velorath
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Posts: 8980


Reply #20 on: August 22, 2006, 10:06:53 PM

Emerald Dream's BG's have apparently been down since shortly after the patch.  This lead me to try out the so-called World PVP, which actually doesn't really reward PVPing all that much.  Very little fighting was going on in Silithus, as most people were just picking up the minerals and running them back to their base dodging spiders and scorpions along the way.  You get about 200 honor and 10 CC rep for every turn you do and whichever side turns in 200 first gets a buff that increase CC rep from kills by 25%.  Needless to say few cared about the buff and most people there were just grinding honor while the BG's were down.

The World PVP in EPL was a little more fun, but has a somewhat large problem in that you get 189 honor for taking a tower, but you don't get any extra honor for holding it.  All you get for holding onto towers is a buff for fighting undead, which isn't going to matter much to people out PVPing.  You're almost better off losing control of the towers because then you can retake them and get a small bit of honor again.  I assume most of the honor is supposed to come from the actual PVP, but aside from a few skirmishes, each side pretty much just ran from tower to tower, capping one and then moving on.
Calantus
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Reply #21 on: August 23, 2006, 01:29:35 AM

The cross server BGs were always about making sure BGs are up all the time on every server to my mind. Battlegroup 9 is going to be insane in that regard, it's got around 3-4 oceanic realms, 2 of which were the "unofficial" aussie servers so they have in themselves a good range of times. I fully expect I'll be able to get my PVP on at all hours if the fancy should strike me. Rock on!

Also this patch kinda sorta sucks for alliance PVP realms. Most of them enjoyed a fairly even population balance. But now that they're joined with PVE and RP servers... I went onto an old server where alliance used to get instant ques... hello 10-30 minute waits depending on BG. Not huge sure, but it's gotta sting.
Zetor
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WWW
Reply #22 on: August 23, 2006, 01:36:21 AM

Eh... on my server (crushridge-pvp) I had 5-10m waits before (unless it was AB/WSG weekend... god I hate WSG), and 11-15m waits now, it's not THAT much worse.

On the other hand, seeing all the smack talk on the forums is amusing. I was bored at work and in about 30 minutes, I managed to collect numerous threads from 12 different servers in the battlegroup (it has 15 servers total) all proclaiming how they have the best pvpers in the BG with everyone else being scrubs. I can't wait until it devolves into full-blown vnboard style board warrioring, kek.


-- Z.

caladein
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WWW
Reply #23 on: August 23, 2006, 03:08:34 AM

Also this patch kinda sorta sucks for alliance PVP realms. Most of them enjoyed a fairly even population balance. But now that they're joined with PVE and RP servers... I went onto an old server where alliance used to get instant ques... hello 10-30 minute waits depending on BG. Not huge sure, but it's gotta sting.

Yeah, that's the only real downside for this patch on my Druid (for my Horde Priest, it'd be quite nice if my battlegroup had its BGs up...), but winning AV for once = priceless.

As an aside, it seems that Daggerspine's Horde side is one of the better ones in Group 2 (so I'm used to having uphill fights in all BGs) and the whining from a few of the PvE servers when they're losing a BG is driving me batty. It's like an only child realizing that he is indeed not the center of the universe.

"Point being, they can't make everyone happy, so I hope they pick me." -Ingmar
"OH MY GOD WE'RE SURROUNDED SEND FOR BACKUP DIG IN DEFENSIVE POSITIONS MAN YOUR NECKBEARDS" -tgr
Merusk
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Reply #24 on: August 23, 2006, 05:23:51 AM

I got into a few BGs before the Eastern Kingdoms crashed on my server.  A few things:

1) They're buggy as fuck.  They had to shut-down WSG on Alleria's BG (or perhaps WSG just wasn't connecting for us.) No explaination why.

2) For the first hour I'd get into a BG, it wouldl start to load me, and then drop me back in Stormwind at the recruiter.  It was happening that way to all my guildmates as well, so it wasn't just my crappy machine.

3) Queues started out pretty quick, with Alleria Alliance dropping froma 2-3 hour wait for AV to 12 mins at one point.  There were 38 instances and 68 ABs going (Queue time of 2-3 mins, down from 3-5 hours on off-holidays since Alleria Horde wouldn't do AB since multiple quick WSGs gave more honor.)   I expect this to go up as the 'newness' wears off but I'm happy to have been proven wrong so far.

4) Anyone trying to grind for High-Warlord/ Grand Marshall right now is fucking insane.   I know there'll be people doing it, but with 24/7 BGs and the incredibly short queue times, you're going to have to be PvPing (and winning) at least 16-20 hours I figure.  (Old GMs on my server said they Queued up a minimum of 10 hours a day on weekdays under the single-server system. I know a guy who was rated #5 on the server one week and he'd done the same to get that high in the ratings, but lost some matches.)

5) X-server Alliance sucks even more than your own server.  You don't know who to listen to, who's a moron or who's competent.  The AV I was in everyone spent their time puttering around on the Field of Strife while Horde wandered and recapped things the few folks on Offense were capping.  After the last few months of AVs not lasting longer than an hour, I found myself getting very frustrated and /afked out.  AB I got into as horde hit 1800 resources, checked the time and it had been up a little over 5 mins.  Yarr.


The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Shavnir
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Reply #25 on: August 23, 2006, 06:18:02 AM

I get 844 mana back per lifetap.  God has smiled upon the warlocks.
bhodi
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Posts: 6817

No lie.


Reply #26 on: August 23, 2006, 06:47:17 AM

Our warlocks were cheering at the lifetap. If you haven't already, you'll want to check out this.
Quote
/script local s,m,l,b,p=563,1.2,{30,75,140,220,310,424}, {0.38,0.68,0.8,0.8,0.8,0.8},"player"; for i=6,1,-1 do if(UnitHealth(p)>=l+b*s and (UnitManaMax(p)-UnitMana(p)>=(l+b*s)*m)) then CastSpellByName("Life Tap(Rank "..i..")");break;end;end

    * The value for s which is your current shadow damage bonus (so add your damage to all school + damage to shadow spells). Replace 563 with whatever you have;
    * The value for m which is your current Improved Lifetap modifier (1.1 for 1/2 Improved Lifetap and 1.2 for 2/2 Improved Lifetap).
Cross-server battlegrounds were of course a godsend on our server, I don't think I wanted more than 5m for a battleground the entire night. Even after the shiny wears off, it'll be a boon for my server in particular. It sucks that it drags some of the more balanced servers down.

Combat dagger rogues are back in the top of the damagemeters, which is nice, but I'm still getting a lot of glancing blows. +5 weapon skill is nice, I'd have liked +10.

I feel bad for the scrubs in green and the organized groups that we went up against last night. Gear difference has never been more appaernt to me in pvp than it was last night. 15 people in AB in full tier2+ pretty much makes the game completely onesided. I'm personally unstoppable as a slightly skilled rogue in tier2; I can basically do 1vs2 (except for warlocks, grr), and it was the same pretty much with all of us. It's fun, but it isn't fair.

P.S. Yes I'm bad at math, especially basic math. I had it the other way and was like hrm that can't be right. Oh well.
Jobu
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Lord Buttrot


Reply #27 on: August 23, 2006, 11:55:36 AM

I had a great time with it last night. Joined up in AB with my guild, and won almost nonstop. The queue times were instantaneous. We'd click the button, and the be in the BG a moment later. When people got tired, I went to AV, and squeezed 4 games in before going to bed. The longest queue I had was maybe 30 seconds, it was awesome.

The range of gear and skill is pretty insane. I ran into an alliance guild with 2 warriors both decked out in Wrath, both with Thunderfurys. In other matches, I'd run into people that I could two-shot again. It was pretty crazy.

At this level, any class that doesn't have the exalted AV rewards by the time they are 60 should be laughed at. Lobotomizers and Glacial Blades for everyone!
Threash
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Reply #28 on: August 23, 2006, 12:21:48 PM

Combat dagger rogues are back in the top of the damagemeters, which is nice, but I'm still getting a lot of glancing blows. +5 weapon skill is nice, I'd have liked +10

Weapon skill won't lower the amount of glancing blows you get (always 40% of white hits), but the damage penalty on them (30% less damage on glancing blows, +3% damage per weapon skill point).  Its basically the same thing unless your crit rate is extremely high (glancing blows can never be crits so you are effectively capped at 60% crit rate.

I am the .00000001428%
bhodi
Moderator
Posts: 6817

No lie.


Reply #29 on: August 23, 2006, 12:25:55 PM

Weapon skill won't lower the amount of glancing blows you get (always 40% of white hits), but the damage penalty on them (30% less damage on glancing blows, +3% damage per weapon skill point).  Its basically the same thing unless your crit rate is extremely high (glancing blows can never be crits so you are effectively capped at 60% crit rate.
Oh, I didn't know that. That makes me feel a bit better. It still sucks that they can't be crits, that implies that they actually reduce your damage even moer than I thought, since raid buffed I've got 37%ish to crit base.
Azazel
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Reply #30 on: August 27, 2006, 05:22:07 AM

No, I tend to believe this as well.  They also aren't going to be the panacea for Queus on the Alliance side everyone seems to think they'll be.  Just take a look at http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=7928.msg217465#msg217465 Jayce's chart to realize that's going to be the case.  You're still going to have the A:H population imbalance.

That's what I was thinking.

However...

a 2-12 minute wait for WSG and AB now (could take 1hr-90mins for WSG) and about 15-30mins for AV (previously 2hrs-don't even bother).

Generally, you can do a complete WSG or an AB while you wait for an AV and do very little actual sitting on your ass waiting.


http://azazelx.wordpress.com/ - My Miniatures and Hobby Blog.
Xanthippe
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Reply #31 on: August 27, 2006, 09:40:17 AM

My server waits have been about a minute for WSG, 2-3 mins for AB, and the most I've seen for AV has been 10.  It's usually about 5.

Merusk
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Reply #32 on: August 27, 2006, 12:46:59 PM

No, I tend to believe this as well.  They also aren't going to be the panacea for Queus on the Alliance side everyone seems to think they'll be.  Just take a look at http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=7928.msg217465#msg217465 Jayce's chart to realize that's going to be the case.  You're still going to have the A:H population imbalance.

That's what I was thinking.

However...

a 2-12 minute wait for WSG and AB now (could take 1hr-90mins for WSG) and about 15-30mins for AV (previously 2hrs-don't even bother).

Generally, you can do a complete WSG or an AB while you wait for an AV and do very little actual sitting on your ass waiting.

Yeah I'm surprised, too.  AB queue is 1min, WSG is a few secs and AV itself is only 16-20 mins.  Looks like there were some actual PVPing hordies out there after all. 

That or this is still 'new' and after a few weeks we'll see the times creep up as people realize just how futile it is to try and rank at all now.   The BG-whores in my guild are all a-twitter at how they're earning 12k honor a day doing just a few hours.  They don't seem to realize that the PvP teams are still out there running as long as pre-patch but winning more matches (due to shorter queue time) and earning 30-40k a day now.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Threash
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Reply #33 on: August 27, 2006, 01:30:59 PM

You guys are stealing our horde, queues on my server are much much longer than they where before.  Not only that but the alliance from other servers is dumber than a jar of mayo.  This blows, i wish they would go back to how it was before.

I am the .00000001428%
Zetor
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WWW
Reply #34 on: August 27, 2006, 01:52:07 PM

You guys are stealing our horde, queues on my server are much much longer than they where before.  Not only that but the alliance from other servers is dumber than a jar of mayo.  This blows, i wish they would go back to how it was before.
Well, assuming you're from battlegroup 2 [crushridge etc.], the BGs have been completely broken on saturday/sunday. Somehow the number of level60 ABs was capped at 4 and WSGs were capped at 10, leading to happy fun 2-hour queues. AV was a 20-min queue for the most part. Apparently it won't be fixed until tomorrow the earliest, though I think we'll have to wait for the weekly maintenance.

BTW, I've checked the other forums in the battlegroup, and everyone's saying the same thing (all <alliance/horde> that are not from <our_server> completely suck). I think it's just perception.. and people tending to notice the bad players from all servers. Hell, I've seen crazy competent PVPers from Feathermoon (RP server) and absolutely horrible ones from Stonemaul (who are allegedly the 'best' in the battlegroup, unless you ask Bloodscalp, Daggerspine, Boulderfist or... yeah.).


-- Z.

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