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Author Topic: Return of the Book Thread  (Read 1286244 times)
lamaros
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Reply #3955 on: July 04, 2011, 07:51:58 PM

I think that is one of the weaker parts of that essay, actually. I don't think he does noble as well as he does bitter and frustrated. "Down these mean streets a man must go who is not himself mean" is a great line, though.
Murgos
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Reply #3956 on: July 05, 2011, 04:56:00 AM

I remember how impressed I was by Chandlers prose the first time I read his stories.  I think the general consensus is that his plots leave a lot to be desired but his prose is absolutely world class.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
Abagadro
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Reply #3957 on: July 05, 2011, 10:15:57 AM

I don't know that I agree with that. Everyone has been ripping off The Big Sleep in some form or fashion for seventy years.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

-H.L. Mencken
Murgos
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Reply #3958 on: July 05, 2011, 11:42:03 AM

I don't know that I agree with that. Everyone has been ripping off The Big Sleep in some form or fashion for seventy years.

The Big Sleep in particular is a mess.  Sure, people rip it off but really, the story criss-crosses and wanders around to the point where it seems like by the end everyone has lost track of what the hell they were doing there in the first place.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
Abagadro
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Reply #3959 on: July 05, 2011, 01:22:08 PM

That is sorta the point but to each his own I guess.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

-H.L. Mencken
lamaros
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Reply #3960 on: July 05, 2011, 07:56:21 PM

I agree with Ab, you can have a go at his plotting all you like, but it's generally pretty good. Not everything is a carefully constructed master plan that is carefully unravelled, sometimes shit just happens in a mess, and I think Chandler captures that well.

His prose is often good, true, but it can be really 'agh' at times as well. I had to give up on 'The Pencil' because it was awful.
Abagadro
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Reply #3961 on: July 05, 2011, 08:20:12 PM

Chandler was also very consciously trying to do something different than some of his contemporaries/predecessors, particularly Hammett.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

-H.L. Mencken
Johny Cee
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Reply #3962 on: July 11, 2011, 12:10:51 PM

On China Mieville again:

His Embassytown is out now, and is quite enjoyable.  Scifi about a far-flung colony set in the middle of a (very) alien city.  Revolves around language and communication.

I've found that generally I really love every other Mieville book, and can't finish the others.  I was just bored by Kraken after really loving The City and the City.


On Chandler:

I think Ab and lamaros hit the nail on the head.  It's organic plotting/story-building versus the typical very constructed narratives most mystery books use.  Chandler turns loose a couple of antagonistic forces that interact with each other and work towards different goals, which leads to complexity and deadends and some confusion.  Most books are complicated without really being complex, in that they boil down to a protagonist and an antagonist working at cross-purposes.
Johny Cee
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Reply #3963 on: July 11, 2011, 12:28:15 PM

and the middle-aged Japanese woman was being short-roped by a Sherpa going up the mountain
...
- Boukreev got shit for rushing up and down, and no one can corroberate that he got the okay to head down early.  

My understanding is that it was Sandy Pittman who was short roped to Lopsang Jangbu Sherpa and the fuss was pretty much created by Krakauer who criticised Boukreev in public for going up and down fast and not using O2.

Mea culpa.  It was Pittman.

Quote
Take anything Krakauer writes with a giant grain of salt, though.  You generally can see him push people into narrative slots, and there have been some of the same things said about his book on Pat Tillman.
...
Personally, I think Krakauer pushed Boukreev into the villain slot of his narrative since Hall and Fisher both died redemptive deaths.  Krakauer also used some pretty poor fact-checking for items that did not support his narrative, or outright contradicted it.

100% agree with all this, I really don't trust a word Krakauer says, which is odd because I'd still recommend his book. 

His criticism was aimed at - the two remaining strongest climbers who survived, neither of whom was in his expedition, neither spoke English that well, both had performed an unusual climbing act that day (Lopsang dragging someone up Everest, Boukreev summiting and then rescuing people from near camp 4 in a blizzard, neither Lopsang or Boukreev used O2).

Given what happened I can understand why people fell out.

I chatted with my father about all this on Friday, and we basically kicked around the same ideas and conclusions.  My father is a climber (Northeastern US, all weather but we have much shorter peaks), and the Everest Disaster has been a big topic in his circle for ages (that circle includes guys with summits of McKinley, Kilimanjaro and others).

Me, I stick to warm weather thank-you-very-much. 


You should read Boukreev's ghost-written book The Climb.  It's a good read, and adds a different take to events.  I heartily recommend Krakauer's book as long as you keep in mind that it's basically a good fictionalization of the tragedy.
Sky
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Reply #3964 on: July 12, 2011, 06:26:16 AM

The good: just finished Player of Games.

The bad: no copies of Use of Weapons in the system, a single copy of Consider Phlebas.

The redemption: fiancee is fic librarian. Going to have the full Culture set "soon".
K9
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Reply #3965 on: July 12, 2011, 07:55:34 AM

Re-read Pratchett's Bromeliad (Truckers, Diggers and Wings) over the weekend. The novels are still as good as when I read them as a kid years ago.

I only read the very early books later and was not terribly impressed.  Terry clearly both improved as a writer and developed disc world into much more of its own place rather than just generic parody fantasy world and that helped a lot.
I started at the very beginning, and I think I'm better off for doing so. Why would one want to start with the best books first, and then be terribly disappointed when reading the weaker earlier books later (which one will almost be guaranteed to want to read when starved for more of his writing)? Better to get them out of the way first and as a bonus also get to experience Pratchett's progress as a writer as you work your way through the series - that's my take on it, anyway.

I've actually read pretty much everything he's written and really only found the very first couple / the rincewind-focused books to be rather disappointing compared to everything else.

I certainly can understand "start at the beginning." but my advice would definitely be "if Color of Magic doesn't work for you, don't give up on Pratchett entirely".

Guards Guards! is the 8th discworld book, so it's certainly a bit later in the series, but it's not that much later, and just the evolution of the world building and story telling from there through Night Watch is pretty impressive by itself

Though one other piece of Pratchett advice might be "realize that discworld books tend to focus on different groups of characters (though there's some overlap in places) and some of these groups of characters may be more appealing to you than others.   

I would second Guards, Guards! as a good first book; Moving Pictures was the one that did it for me, and I would say that it is probably one of the best of the standalone storylines. I think the wizards in general are the most fun group of characters, although I think the Watch story arc tends to have the best novels. I think Wyrd Sisters and Witches Abroad are also good starter novels, being parodies of popular tales.

I don't get all the Rincewind hate, while The Colour of Magic and The Light Fantastic are very different in style to the rest of the novels, Interesting Times, Eric and The Last Continent are all brilliant.

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WayAbvPar
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Reply #3966 on: July 12, 2011, 08:05:31 AM

Just wanted to warn everyone to kiss your loved ones goodbye, since the apocalypse is upon us. A Dance With Dragons just hit my Kindle. Anyone taking bets on the release dates of the next book? I will take the over.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

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Merusk
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Reply #3967 on: July 12, 2011, 08:21:02 AM

Next book never released as he dies before getting 1/4 of the way through, then has everything burned as he said was his arrangement.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Reg
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Reply #3968 on: July 12, 2011, 08:47:04 AM

Damn. I'd been hoping he'd die gracefully and let Brandon Sanderson take over.
Rendakor
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Reply #3969 on: July 12, 2011, 11:43:08 AM

I'm heading out to the local brick and mortar to pick it up today. Will not believe it exists until I have it in my hands!

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
Viin
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Reply #3970 on: July 12, 2011, 07:00:21 PM

Got ours from Amazon today - it's very thick. I would have preferred it read it on the Kindle, but I already have all the other books in paper copy ...

- Viin
Morat20
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Reply #3971 on: July 12, 2011, 08:25:03 PM

I'm holding off. I need to reread the others -- it's been way too long. Plus, just started Rule 34.
Teleku
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Reply #3972 on: July 12, 2011, 10:39:05 PM

Made it back home for a visit over the weekend and got hold of all 4 of my original hard covers.  Already 350 pages into the first book.  Must read faster dammit!

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
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ghost
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Reply #3973 on: July 13, 2011, 07:30:21 AM

Next book never released as he dies before getting 1/4 of the way through, then has everything burned as he said was his arrangement.

So then we should start making a list of who will hack up the finish?

My bet is Kevin J. Anderson. 
Zetor
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WWW
Reply #3974 on: July 13, 2011, 07:47:05 AM

R. A. Salvatore for the lulz.  why so serious?

HaemishM
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WWW
Reply #3975 on: July 13, 2011, 08:43:33 AM

That would be... unfortunate.

Murgos
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Reply #3976 on: July 15, 2011, 06:38:38 AM

Well, my holding out lasted, what? 2 days?  Ordered it from Amazon along with the new Dresden.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
Mazakiel
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Reply #3977 on: July 15, 2011, 07:57:02 AM

Just finished The Windup Girl.  A very good, but pretty depressing, book.  Now I can finally dive into Dance With Dragons. 
Johny Cee
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Reply #3978 on: July 15, 2011, 09:42:03 PM

I'm very glad I stopped reading this series.

It's pretty clear that this is going to be another cash-cow that is kept on life support for as long as possible. You know that this series is never going to finish properly.

I haven't bothered to pick up the latest Martin book.  Really no reason to while I have a backlog of things to read, as I'm not expecting that much from it.


Really liked Tim Powers The Stress of Her Regard, which I just finished.  The first half was a bit slow, and I put it away for a while, but it really picked up in the second half.  Byron, Keats, the Shelleys and a couple of original characters in a secret history of vampires/lamia.

Finished Jeffrey Ford's The Empire of Ice Cream.  Short stories and novellas, the first half is stronger than the second half.

Found my copy of Cormac McCarthy's All the Pretty Horses as well, so I think that will be next.
Morat20
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Reply #3979 on: July 20, 2011, 10:16:25 AM

I just finished Rule 34. The ending left me a bit confused, the second person was surprisingly enjoyable (I got enough of the ending to understand WHY it was all second person), and I particularly enjoyed the computer scientist laughing at the notion of Singularity.
Merusk
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Reply #3980 on: July 20, 2011, 05:18:31 PM

The title confuses and intrigues me.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Murgos
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Reply #3981 on: July 21, 2011, 05:14:55 AM

The title confuses and intrigues me.

It (the title) has given my imagination some pretty fertile ground regarding plot and characterization.  Let's just say it's not pretty.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
Morat20
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Reply #3982 on: July 21, 2011, 09:00:04 AM

The title confuses and intrigues me.
I can give this much without spoilering anything in the book:

One of the POV characters (well, sorta -- it's all done second person) is the DI in charge of the Rule 34 squad. Their job is, literally, to surf the rabid pits of near-future 4chan equivilants, keeping an eye out on emerging memes in order to try to spot potential trouble before it congeals.

One of the reoccuring themes of the novel is simply that it's really damn hard for law to keep up with science, the net, and the confluenced of weirdly amoral strangeness.

The Rule 34 squad itself isn't really part of the book -- the DI is, but on a case that's more...meta...to the whole concept than an actual Rule 34 thingy, which is mostly just alerting the rest of the police that it appears it's a new fad to hack protein synthesizers to grow human flesh.
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Reply #3983 on: July 21, 2011, 09:41:34 AM

So... the author didn't really understand what Rule 34 was at all then.  I suppose it's a better title than "Icanhazchzburger Squad 5"

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Khaldun
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Reply #3984 on: July 21, 2011, 01:12:12 PM

It's the near-term future. A fiction writer can make Rule 34 mean something different in the future that is still derived from what it means now. We all use phrases every day that had a different or narrower meaning when they first appeared.
Morat20
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Reply #3985 on: July 21, 2011, 02:29:46 PM

So... the author didn't really understand what Rule 34 was at all then.  I suppose it's a better title than "Icanhazchzburger Squad 5"
They called it the Rule 34 squad because 90% of what they're doing is wading through porn, because 90% of what people do is sex. They deal with meme-crimes that originate in, well, the cesspool of the internet.

Their baliwick literally is /b/ on 4chan and Goatsex and 2 Girls 1 Cup (well, future versions). They're literally required to monitor that, the associated forums and random postings, 24/7 looking for bad shit before it comes up and bites cops on the asses because, well, "monkey see, monkey do" especially when you're dealing with teenagers and impulse control cases in a society with total, 24/7 net-access.

The actual book is more or less about morality on the internet, spam, scams, and the fact that our AI overlords will probably not, in face, eat our brains. Because if you're going to make an AI, you're going to make one that's basically your little helper monkey. Why would you make one just to, you know, think about stuff? Better for the sucker to devote all that energy to keeping your email free of spam, spotting phishing attempts, and basically being your butler.

It's not going to try to take over the world unless you are.
Sky
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Reply #3986 on: July 22, 2011, 06:42:13 AM

Because if you're going to make an AI, you're going to make one that's basically your little helper monkey. Why would you make one just to, you know, think about stuff? Better for the sucker to devote all that energy to keeping your email free of spam, spotting phishing attempts, and basically being your butler finding porn.
  Started The Algebraist. Enjoyable.
Sheepherder
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Reply #3987 on: July 22, 2011, 08:36:56 PM

Better for the sucker to devote all that energy to keeping your email free of spam, spotting phishing attempts, and basically being your butler.

It's not going to try to take over the world unless you are.

If the book isn't about an AI powered robot designed to scour the internet clean instead going mad, growing penis tentacles, and raping Japanese schoolgirls with them then the author doesn't get the internet.
Morat20
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Reply #3988 on: July 23, 2011, 10:19:11 AM

If the book isn't about an AI powered robot designed to scour the internet clean instead going mad, growing penis tentacles, and raping Japanese schoolgirls with them then the author doesn't get the internet.
You are, in fact, surprisingly close. :)
ghost
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Reply #3989 on: July 26, 2011, 09:32:13 AM

Finished listening to the second Black Company book this AM.  I hadn't read this in forever, and it pretty much flowed as I remember.  It doesn't really pick up, in my opinion, until the end of the second book. 
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