A Quick Intro (Playerep)

[Soln]

[Edit July 7] Beta Registration is now OPEN -- no invites necessary. 

I wasn't sure where to put this, but chatting with Schild it seemed worthwhile to put a little explanation out there for this, the big sig below me (Playerep.com).   Move this to game dev/design or Useless News as appropriate.


So, for the last two months and change I built a player reputation service with three friends.  We all work full-time on other stuff, so this is 100% homebrew.  There's no weird advertising or referral schemes -- it's on our nickel and has been affordable to build and maintain.  The point of the service is to allow people to track and elect reputations for the people they play with.  Not just for MMO’s, but any multiplayer game.

There's a lot of swirl around how to implement player reputations in a game, but we're not trying to ensure any kind of behavior in a title.  We're trying to let people 1) show the multiplayer games they play, and 2) give feedback on the people they play with.  And we do it with a lot of constraints and backend work that is invisible to the user.  We’ve tried to design this to fight some of the common problems to reputation systems. 

It works like this: you sign up, your friend signs up, your friend votes for you and you reciprocate.  If you find someone on the same shard or world (like Eve) who's also a member, you can vote for them.  It all depends on your experiences with them, close friend or just someone from a PUG.  Example, the other night I get over my head in Eve with some rats, barely escape, and someone in a larger ship groups with me and repairs my armor.  I may never see them again, but if they were on the service I'd put in a good vote for them.  And I might keep doing it.  In reverse, last night in WoW "some guy stole my node".  Sad but true.  Not a big deal, but just rude and unnecessary.  And to them, not a big deal maybe.  But for me, if they were a member, I'd give them a one-time corrective vote.  And so on.

We have a closed Beta going on for the next week and change only to monitor performance, but we're going to open it up to anyone soon.  In the meanwhile, if any f13 folks want an invite, please pm here and I'll sent you an invite. 

There’s more details on How it Works and a FAQ.  Otherwise, just let me know your questions.  Thanks.

Soln/Tide

[Wolf]

looks pretty nifty. How do you stop people from griefing other people? I mean someone gets mad at somebody else and makes all his buddies vote negative on that one person?

[Soln]

well, a couple of things.

1) you will always know who is voting for you
2) since you know who votes for you,  you can reciprocate -- and so can the people who vote for you (they can see who is voting for you)
3) you will never know from the system how they voted (you have to work that out on your own with them)
4) there's a time limit, so any votes from someone are necessarily throttled
5) there's decay, so if someone really feels strongly about you, they'll have to persist by voting the same way repeatedly
6) we don't reward a homogenous voting pattern

utlimately, it's up to you to work out why someone may be voting for you pro/con.  And that kind of lobbying will secure your rep, whatever it may end up being. After all your rep comes from how you work in a game -- the system just helps capture and promote that.   But we have a few designs, like some of the things I mentioned and others, to catch people trying rep attacks. 

[Yoru]

That's really neat, Soln... have you thought about releasing an open API for querying rep and submitting votes so that interested companies could integrate it into their games? I doubt anyone would take you up on it immediately, but hey, never hurts to be prepared in case it's a big success.

[tazelbain]

I don't how this can work as an opt-in system, the asshats aren't going to tell you what servers they are on so you can avoid them or vote on them.

From a practical stand point, how do you expect this to be used?

[Strazos]

Really neat idea. I'm more intrigued by this than, say...Xfire, which is just a catassing personal ad if you ask me.

[Nebu]

As I've stated in other threads, some aspect of this will backfire due to flaws in the human psyche.  There exists a sizeable population that feeds off of any kind of attention (positive or negative) and a device like this serves to reinforce them.  In essence, griefers would wear something like this as a badge of honor knowing that they pissed a lot of people off.  They would get feedback in a bad rating and enjoy the attention.  Unlike an eBay type system, there are really very few downsides to being an asshole in an mmog if you're self-sufficient. 

On the bright side, this may serve to warn others of these people in advance.  That has merit.

[bhodi]

On the bright side, this may serve to warn others of these people in advance.  That has merit.

Maybe they'd all cluster together becuase no one would have them and also so they could stroke each other's turgid asshole rating. Then, they'd get bored and frustrated and they'd tear each other apart, post an "I'm quitting" post on the forums, and move onto a different game.

It could work.

[StGabe]

It's not clear how this addresses the issue that has been brought up: voting blocks.  If this did see heavy usage then inevitably it would skew towards people who can vote in blocks.  Someone giving you a positive vote because you saved their lives will just be noise compared to a guild of 100 that all gives you negative votes because someone in their guild doesn't like you / lost reputation because of you / just wants to fuck with you.  If it became mainstream enough then I'm sure guilds would even find ways to automate their block voting (which brings up another issue ... how do you guarantee that accounts are given correctly to players in a 1:1 manner).

Reputation systems are really, really hard.  Personally I don't expect any of them to work any time soon.

[StGabe]

The one area where I think that reputations can sort of work (but still have a lot of issues) is if they are tied to some in-game transacton that requires an investment from one side or another.  A good example of this is the ebay reptutation system.  It is only usable after a certain well-recognized sort of transaction takes place.  Furthermore, it costs every time you want to make that transaction and so you can't create free auctions to farm points.  I have suggested in the past that reputation systems might be tied only to specific in-game behaviors like having grouped for >1 hour together.  This, however, is something that would have to see support from the game itself and could not be implemented as a third-party solution.

[Azazel]

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...I'm just sayin', is all.

[Soln]

@Yoru:
That's a good idea, but it's a ways off.  The scoring methods and handlers are unique enough that some providers might be interested, but we need to drive some traffic through it first.  Get the system some credibility and work out the inevitable unplanned issues.

FWIW we have a WoW mod and patcher we're planning to test Fri night.  If all goes well, we'll post it early next week.  So you'll be able to search and vote for members per realm while in game.  On the Roadmap is a separate site for Eve, a patcher and display for EQ2, and maybe something in SL.  But WoW will be first up.


@tazelbain:
Well you're right -- asshats aren't determinate :)  The service only works if people register and vote. It's a simple means to show your interest to other people over time and between games and shards. If you bother registering and actually vote for people -- even casual PUG's or crafters you may trade with only once -- that will give you a better sense of what someone is like who may not be a member.  A better sense for raiding, or future guild recruitment etc. 

Basically, if someone bothers to at least register, that's your first clue they're probably worth hanging around because they care about how people think about them in a game.  They want to have a rep and accept they could get corrective scores.  We'll never be able to have methods to track griefers, but you can at least narrow the field of possible people to work with and rate them on how they treat you.


@Strazos:
Yeah, XFire only tells people by a sig what you played.  This service will allow you to show people what you play and how well.  According to the people you actually play with. 


@Nebu:
Thanks.  There's a lot of common behavior scenarios we've tried to anticipate (see FAQ). The scoring method is straightforward like eBay, but better because it does not max out (it is not only positive, it has a range of scores).  It allows people to grow and to have corrections.  You're right there are people who will try and spam it, but we're expecting that. 

You're also right that some people will work to have -5.00.  But that's pretty much the same as working hard to achieve +5.00 and maintaining it.  Even griefers who work hard to get -5.00 will have to continue to earn the attention of people to continue voting negatively for them.  Otherwise, they'll drift back to 0.00 and be harmless.  Which is probably a good reflection of life -- if they're not bugging anyone, people won't be bothered to go and vote for them.  Because they've shut up.


@bhodi:
I fully expect we'll get "voting-rings" like that, and we're prepared for it :D


@StGabe:
You're correct. From the FAQ: Won't the same people always vote for each other? "Yes, they will. And their scores will reflect that. If someone consistently votes only for certain people all the time, after awhile their votes will not count as much. They'll still be recognized, but the system will reflect that all they are doing is reinforcing the same opinion. The reputation of that person they are voting for won't increase as much as if there were many people voting with more variety."  We don't reward homogenity.  But frankly, voting blocks are normal.  Someone's voting block may just be some close friends, instead of a strident uberguild.  And on that note...

What about large guilds? Won't they skew the results?"No. The Playerep service is based on reciprocal voting. Members can only maintain their reputations by regularly voting for each other. And if a large number decide to only vote for themselves their reputations will reflect that homogeneity. Their personal scores would be less than if they had the votes of many different people who themselves had the votes of many different peoples reinforcing their reputations."  So, people can get to certain score levels, but they are harder to maintain with homogenous voting.  We recognize the "noise" and the individual vote. 

Like I mentioned above, we're working on mods for some games.  Try it out, send me your email or wait a bit to sign up. 


@Azazel:
You're right.  For some reason, a lot of people think leaving comments is helpful.  It's not.  For every positive comment, there's a "U SUK".  How do you figure from those notes if that person is worthwhile?  All you know is what those other people think.  We don't show the substance of a vote, just who is voting for someone. All you have to go on is scores. It's up to you to learn more about someone if you want, based on their scores.  And then reinforce or change those rankings as you see fit. And we show you your voting history.  We may put in some notes in that history down the road, but I don't think they're necessary at the moment.  Well struck.


FYI, the closed Beta will probably end soon.  PM me your email if you want an invite in the meanwhile.  Or check the registration maybe tomorrow morning.  We kept things by invite only to watch traffic and monitor system performance.  We might be good to go now. I'll have to check tonight.  Thanks.

[Modern Angel]

Apropos of nothing, sorry you had Might/Nullify to transfer  Turalyon, Soln. Have more fun with them than Lothar did.

[Sairon]

I think you will have a problem with that name isn't a unique identifier. There's a lot of people who change names between games for various reasons. So you stumble on Mr X in EVE and search him up in the db and slap a negative on him. Turns out that the guy who had registered that nick on your is Mr X from DAoC and doesn't even know what EVE is.

[Soln]

I think you will have a problem with that name isn't a unique identifier. There's a lot of people who change names between games for various reasons. So you stumble on Mr X in EVE and search him up in the db and slap a negative on him. Turns out that the guy who had registered that nick on your is Mr X from DAoC and doesn't even know what EVE is.

Nope.  You can only vote for Mr.X if you are in Eve with him.  Same game and shard are required.  We have to assume that if you vote for someone, you know them.  After all, they'll see you voting for them and presumable ask if they don't know you.  More info here.  The PR members names are unique, player handles are not -- they can't be.  We can take of most of the problem, but the final in-game stuff if up to you.  No drive-by voting. 

[StGabe]

No. The Playerep service is based on reciprocal voting. Members can only maintain their reputations by regularly voting for each other. And if a large number decide to only vote for themselves their reputations will reflect that homogeneity. Their personal scores would be less than if they had the votes of many different people who themselves had the votes of many different peoples reinforcing their reputations."  So, people can get to certain score levels, but they are harder to maintain with homogenous voting.  We recognize the "noise" and the individual vote.

And my guild belongs to an alliance and the alliance simply has each member vote for 1-3 random member per day, out of a thousand or so.  Will easily overcome the one bad person who votes against me because I kill steal from them.  Not to mention creation of fake accounts to freshen things up (included, of course, in the pools with random voting going on across the pool and from the pool).

I still think it will gamed far too easily.  I do really think that you can only make this work if you tie reputations to specific sorts of transactions with cost.  And even then stuff like eBay gets gamed.

[StGabe]

Same game and shard are required.

Yes, but how do you enforce that?  Can I make an alt and make a second PR account tied to that?  Can I make a pool of alts which mutually support each other and/or hire out their votes to other pools?

[Soln]

Spot on questions, but to answer them well I have to refer you to the FAQ for bots, spammers, alts, etc.    And again, sign up and try it. 

Re. transactions, you're also right.  But we have to leave you to decide what transactions matter in a game in a game.  You come to the service and decide regularly what matters to you in the recent transactions you've had with someone, and then vote.

Re. being lost at sea, in an Alliance etc.  You're presuming we treat every vote the same way, with the same weight  -- we don't.  We have to test this, which is what we're trying now, but we've built scoring to try that problem of individuation.

Re. game + shard.  We enforce it from what you tell us.  Not sure I understand the question otherwise.  Thanks.

[Viin]

I was able to register, so letsee:

 

[ahoythematey]

Neat stuff so far, Soln.  Asheron's Call and Day of Defeat: Source were missing, maybe more.  People with alt-itus(like myself) or going to end up with bloated MMO profiles due to so many characters.  Now that I have ten invite I need to drum up some friends to share them with.

[Soln]

thanks.  There's actually many games missing.  We just had to take a sample to start.  We'll add  Asheron's Call and Day of Defeat: Source  tonight. 

People should just let us know what's missing and we'll add it pronto.  We have to improve the Add_Game templates anyways to show all the choices per genre, and that's on the Roadmap


BTW, Beta is now OPEN -- no invites needed.  Thx.

[UD_Delt]

I think you will have a problem with that name isn't a unique identifier. There's a lot of people who change names between games for various reasons. So you stumble on Mr X in EVE and search him up in the db and slap a negative on him. Turns out that the guy who had registered that nick on your is Mr X from DAoC and doesn't even know what EVE is.

You can just use a combined key of Game + Server + Name and that should always result in a unique identifier. At least for every game I'm aware it should.

[Yoru]

The search UI is a little clunky; you might want to add a way to select from a list of games that you have accounts for, not just from a list of all games.

Also, Go Go Gadget Signature!

[gimpyone]

It won't register me for some reason, keeps saying i need to fill in all of the fields but I have.

[Fabricated]

I would say this is slashdot worthy, you may wanna try that to get a decent enough chunk of people where maybe someone who doesn't actually know the person they grouped with can leave impressions. It's gonna be a ghosttown or a lot of backslapping the other way.

[bhodi]

I'd digg it, if you stuck a digg link there.

[Soln]

@Yoru: Yup, you're right, not a slick experience, but we're going to get to it.  For titles like WoW we need a better way to show NA/EU/Oceania shards.  It's on the Roadmap.

[Edit] Yoru, You Got Props -- search suggestions implemented

@gimpyone: sent you a PM, but couldn't find anything in the logs.  Reg is open -- try again but mail me if there's another problem.  Thanks.

@Fabricated: thanks.  I'm not sure how you get Slashdotted though.  We have a mod for WoW we're testing right now, that should be available this week.  Maybe I'll mail Zonk then.  Otherwise, I don't know how a site gets listed there.

@bhodi: looks like Heartless started a Digg thread for us already: http://digg.com/gaming_news/PlayeRep_beta/share.  Check out his Profile


FWIW, we're also going to offer custom sigs this month, to recolor them and shrink them down.  So for people, like in Eve, they can keep their custom sig and just add a much smaller Playerep one above/below/beside it.  That might help a bit.

[Righ]

Interesting. What's to stop folks using very many mail addresses through proxies and creating a web of reciprocal voting to play the reputation up?

[Soln]

there's more detail in the FAQ on sploits, but here's a couple of things:

1) we show a history of all votes -- members can identify someone who has a voting ring and then vote accordingly
2) we don't reward homogeneity -- if people are only reinforcing the same opinion for the same people all the time, their scores will reflect that
3) community weight -- your influence in the community helps affect your voting, and see #2 for how that would be impacted
4) secret sauce

So yeah, if someone wanted to set up a network of accounts to vote for one person, they could, but each account would need to have their own integrity.  Otherwise you would get a thin set of reputations reinforcing one reputation that itself would not be that high.  A thousand cheese slices will not fill you up -- it will only make you sick.

[Righ]

For what I'm envisioning, it would have to be number four then. Lets hope that external influences don't encourage too many people want to play the rep table itself.

[Yoru]

@Yoru: Yup, you're right, not a slick experience, but we're going to get to it.  For titles like WoW we need a better way to show NA/EU/Oceania shards.  It's on the Roadmap.

[Edit] Yoru, You Got Props -- search suggestions implemented

I just noticed and was about to come post about it; convenience for the win!

[Yegolev]

I want to have sex with your EULA placement.

[Wolf]

hey soln, it's me bitching about the wow realms again :P

Anyway, now you have all the realms, but the thing is there are realms with the same name in the US and the EU (for example Aegwin, Aerie Peak, etc) and imo you should have some sort of separation between them. Personally I don't mind just adding a EU behind the eu realms. Also adding a distinction between horde and alliance characters (and any other faction differences in other games) might be a good idea.

The things is you might get two people with the same nick, on the same realm as it is right now - one of them being Legolaz on Aegwin US, the other Legolaz on Aegwin EU. Full lists of the realms here: US and EU

oh, and while we're on the same subject, you might want to add realms to Warcraft III for the same reasons. IIRC they were Azeroth (west coast), Lordaeron (east coast), Northrend (Europe) and Kalmidor (Korea).

[Wolf]

last thing I promise. If I search for Celerita Venia, via the simple search up top I come up empty. I'll have to search for Wolf to find Celerita Venia, my toon in EVE.

Say I met and grouped celerita venia in eve and I liked the guy. I'm thinking, hey I'll give him props on Playerep. But I won't be able to find him as I wouldn't know to search for Wolf. I hope I'm making sense :)

[caladein]

hey soln, it's me bitching about the wow realms again :P

Anyway, now you have all the realms, but the thing is there are realms with the same name in the US and the EU (for example Aegwin, Aerie Peak, etc) and imo you should have some sort of separation between them. Personally I don't mind just adding a EU behind the eu realms. Also adding a distinction between horde and alliance characters (and any other faction differences in other games) might be a good idea.

The things is you might get two people with the same nick, on the same realm as it is right now - one of them being Legolaz on Aegwin US, the other Legolaz on Aegwin EU. Full lists of the realms here: US and EU

I'm pretty sure names are unique per server, not per side (so you can't have two "Cal"s on US-Daggerspine, one Alliance, one Horde) so I'm not sure if that's a problem or not. About the region thing, I asked Soln about this on the PR forums yesterday:

It might be useful (at least for WoW) to add in the locale in the shard selection list. For example, there's an EU-Daggerspine and a US-Daggerspine, and I'm not sure if you can differentiate between the two right now. I found the way CTProfiles (for their character creation) did it, with selecting your locale in one drop down, and then the server in another to be rather intuitive and all.

Yes you're right, and I was thinking of something along the lines of CT or other.  There's a bit of a balancing act to show all games by genre, but WoW is the outlier pushing us to display shards by region.  Smaller titles would be fine in a pull down menu, but that's kind of clunky.  So, overhauling the Add_Game template is on the Roadmap and I hope we can get to it soon.  Thanks for the suggestion.

When will WoW stop breaking the Internet?