Civil War

[HaemishM]

See, one of the components of the 90's crash was Marvel flooding the shelves with new series.  It proved to be pretty unhealthy for the industry, especially due to the fact that the average comic shop doesn't have a hell of a lot of space to display product.  So one can understand that as a comic fan, I might be a little upset to hear the because DC has the nerve to still have some top selling products, Marvel is going to flood the shelves with their shit until that little situation is rectified.

Variant covers on a shitload of books, a never-ending parade of "Event" books, flooding the market with low quality work, egotistical talent, clones... fuck the 90's was just last decade.  There's no excuse for forgetting the lessons learned that fucking quickly.  This isn't ancient history were talking about, it's 10 fucking years ago.

One could look farther back for this lesson as well. Let's look at the 70's, DC Comics. They started doing the same thing, flooding the market with all kinds of series, most of which died in the DC Implosion (around '77 I think). And that was before the direct market. These lessons should be written in stone and stamped on the EIC's forehead when he gets the job. But Quesada, far from learning, is actually ignoring HIS OWN DIRECTIVES. He came into the job saying "no gimmick covers, no variant editions" and so on, but since Jemas has left, all that shit has returned. Marvel is writing its own downfall... again, and they don't give a shit who they trash to do it.

Captain America hasn't been killed in any of the books I've seen. If they really really are going to kill him, Ed Brubaker should fuck the editors who decided this to death. His Cap book had been one of the bright spots of the MU before Civil War. But this:

Still, one has to wonder: Is Captain America really dead? Comic book characters have routinely died, only to be resurrected when necessary to storylines.

Joe Quesada agrees -- but said times are different now.

"There was period in comics where characters would just die and then be resurrected. And the death had very little meaning and the resurrection had very little meaning," he said. "All I ask of my writers is if you're going to kill a character off, please let that death have some meaning in the overall scope of things."

This is hypocrisy writ large. Resurrections are a thing of the past? What about Captain Marvel? What about not one but TWO excreable Phoenix: War Song miniseries resurrecting the Phoenix character in various bodies. What about Annilihus in the mediocre Annihilation series? Stick to your own story, asshead. Cassandra Nova? Colossus?

[Llava]

If so, it's in a comic that just came out today.

[Velorath]

It's in Captain America #25 which just came out today (it was actually a pretty badly kept secret).

[CmdrSlack]

So I know Cap is/was just a guy who was given this super soldier serum and stuff, but a sniper?  Really?  That's just weak sauce. 

[Velorath]

So I know Cap is/was just a guy who was given this super soldier serum and stuff, but a sniper?  Really?  That's just weak sauce. 

At least Brubaker wrote the issue so it should be handled well.  The thing that really bothers me about it (aside from pretty much fucking over the story Brubaker has been telling thus far) is the fact that they had a very similar scenario play out with the assassination attempt on Speedball in Frontline.

[HaemishM]

You know what'll happen next if Steve Rogers really is dead. Bucky, at the urging of Nick Fury, will become the new Captain America.

Which would be fucking clownshoes, but hey, they might as well, how much worse could they fuck up the story?

[Velorath]

You know what'll happen next if Steve Rogers really is dead. Bucky, at the urging of Nick Fury, will become the new Captain America.

Which would be fucking clownshoes, but hey, they might as well, how much worse could they fuck up the story?

Well, Punisher already got Cap's mask in Civil War #7.

[HaemishM]

Yes, he did.

Fuck, don't say shit like that. Bad enough if Bucky takes it over, Punisher becoming Captain America would be retarded beyond measure.

[Lantyssa]

Lead in to 1602.

[stray]

Did any of you read that Civil War issue where Punisher got his ass kicked by the Cap (and the reason why...)?

I mean, those are just two completely different characters. That'd be insane if Frank Castle starts wearing that suit.

[Velorath]

Maybe Cap will be replaced by four different Captain Americas.  You can have Cyborg Cap (Bucky with his robotic arm), violent Cap that murders criminals (Punisher), armored Cap (the Red, white, and blue Iron Man armor), and teenage Cap (Bucky from Heroes Reborn world).  First they need to do a multi-part "World without a Captain America" storyline though.

[stray]

Damn, that just sucks. Goodbye, Cap ---- Just when I started liking you.

I liked the fact that he was a man out of time and all that.

I guess Marvel saw that as a bad thing.

[Velorath]

Cap will be back before too long.  Fuck, they just brought back Captain Marvel, so any talk Quesada likes to throw around about death being more significant in the Marvel Universe these days is complete bullshit.

[CmdrSlack]

Maybe Cap will be replaced by four different Captain Americas.  You can have Cyborg Cap (Bucky with his robotic arm), violent Cap that murders criminals (Punisher), armored Cap (the Red, white, and blue Iron Man armor), and teenage Cap (Bucky from Heroes Reborn world).  First they need to do a multi-part "World without a Captain America" storyline though.

Man, I wish I had the one box of comics that is somewhere at my parent's house.  IIRC, I have an ancient What If . . . series book (from back when there were those kickass Spidey-themed Hostess Fruit Pie ads) that was something like either What If Captain America Had Survived WWII or What If Cap Hadn't Beat Down Red Skull.  Damn, I wish I could remember that title.  I also had one where Jane Foster found Thor's hammer and it was disguised as a hairbrush. 

Ah sweet, here's a link to a list of the What If titles.  Apparently that was "What if Cap Hadn't Vanished During WWII."  My guess is that it's kind of moot now, what with the sniper and all.  I am also happy that, if I can find 'em, I have two of the first ten of those comics.

[tazelbain]

I think its appropriate that Captain America dies, since the America that he represented died in 9/11.

[Horik]

My God, I'm glad I don't buy this shit any longer. I'll continue to read spoiler sites to find out when he comes back.

[Margalis]

Didn't Captain America get at least replaced once before? I seem to remember someone else took over for him and that replacement was eventually killed.

I like Captain America when he is portrayed like Superman in DKR - a guy trying to do good but a bit naive and being used.

Marvel has had some really awful universe-wide events. Secret Wars was pretty cool but since then most of their big stuff has been crap. Inferno anyone?

Edit: Over-under on his miraculous return? 6 months?

[Velorath]

Didn't Captain America get at least replaced once before? I seem to remember someone else took over for him and that replacement was eventually killed.

Off-hand I can think of at least 4 people who have been replacement Caps.  USAgent is the only one still living.

[Llava]

Did any of you read that Civil War issue where Punisher got his ass kicked by the Cap (and the reason why...)?

I mean, those are just two completely different characters. That'd be insane if Frank Castle starts wearing that suit.

I don't know about that.

Did you happen to read the corresponding Punisher issue covering the same event?  From his perspective, they're two very similar people.

But keep in mind, the Punisher pretty insane, so his perspective is rather skewed.

[stray]

Yeah, Punisher is just deluded.

When Captain America kicked his ass, Punisher didn't fight back at all.

"Not you," he said.

He idolized him, and after it was all over with, he tried to give this speech about how him and Cap are both soldiers etc..

Cap called him a psycho, and left him cuffed up in a small room (though he did release him later, but only gave him rubber bullets).

[Llava]

Point is, putting on the Captain America mask is very much something the Punisher would do.

Whether he's actually anything like Captain America doesn't matter.  He would be a very different Captain America, to be sure, but surely it's not hard to imagine Frank Castle considering himself the last line of sanity between America gone insane and his ideal of America.

[stray]

Yeah, you're right about that. He's crazy enough, and like I said, he idolizes the guy.

In the right hands, I guess it could be an interesting take to have a Sgt. Barnes Captain America copycat out there (just as long as it doesn't last too long).

[Lantyssa]

Great, so Capinator is born and becomes the new symbol of what America really stands for.  It's so in-your-face I don't see how Marvel could avoid it.  Despite the blatent political message, they only want to do it so there can be more death and explosions happening in a Captain America book...

[Velorath]

Congratulations Marvel!  Let's all welcome the return of the speculators!

[Margalis]

I wouldn't mind seeing The Punisher as Cap for a limited time as political statement.

[Trippy]

Maybe Cap will be replaced by four different Captain Americas.  You can have Cyborg Cap (Bucky with his robotic arm), violent Cap that murders criminals (Punisher), armored Cap (the Red, white, and blue Iron Man armor), and teenage Cap (Bucky from Heroes Reborn world).  First they need to do a multi-part "World without a Captain America" storyline though.

Heh, good one.

[HaemishM]

Quesada was on Nightline last night talking about it. It made me stabby.

He said that the Civil War story is a reflection of post-9/11 America and that Cap's death served to highlight the political divisions in America. Joe Simon came on (93 years old and still fighting) and basically said it was horseshit, that during the years of Cap's creation there were people protesting against the war in the streets because they idolized Hitler.

I'm going to go with Joe Simon on this one. The Civil War story is a reflection of post-9/11 America in the same way Ice Pirates is a reflection of the space program. But at least Ice Pirates was fucking entertaining. 

[stray]

A lot of people were protesting WWII because they knew that WWI was hell. i.e. pacifists. The US would have entered WWII a lot sooner if it weren't for public opinion.

So yeah, there are more parallels to our time than some may think.

[tazelbain]

We're about to get a national ID system that wil serve as a internal passport system.  America has changed.

[HaemishM]

Just read Civil War: The Initiative.

Fuckity fuck fuck. Shitty shit shit shit.

They hinted that Cap is NOT DEAD, but is fighting to stay alive on the raft. If they go through this whole bullshit thing just to make everyone think he's dead, but then he's not dead... weak sauce.

The rest of the book is really shit. We get more Bendis dialogue, with Reed fucking Richards being jocular. Then we find out about the new Omega Flight, which is a collection of stupid. More on the Thunderbolts, which still doesn't work for me at all because after all the deaths and destruction, Stark STILL wants to use these fuckers? He still wants to make Venom and Bullseye cape hunters? Oh that's right, his nanos work because he was the one made Osborne go nuts. RETARDED.

We are treated to Stark's repartee with Jarvis about choosing the new Avengers, including statements like "just don't have that Tigra bitch (bleeped)" or some such stupidity. I swear I lose IQ points just thinking about the dialogue.

Marvel Comics are going to suck for a long while. Until the next reboot in 5 years from the new EIC, Slappy McContinuitystein.

[Teleku]

We're about to get a national ID system that wil serve as a internal passport system.  America has changed.

I recall this being something that was continually being attempted to be passed all through the Clinton years by the administration, and has been something talked about longer than that.  This is nothing new in the slightest.  All that has happend is that Republican opposition in congress has diminished since 9/11.



And this whole Cap thing is INSANLY retarded.

[Velorath]

Just read Civil War: The Initiative.

Fuckity fuck fuck. Shitty shit shit shit.

They hinted that Cap is NOT DEAD, but is fighting to stay alive on the raft. If they go through this whole bullshit thing just to make everyone think he's dead, but then he's not dead... weak sauce.

Pulled from random Newsarama article:

Comments from Ms. Marvel in this week’s Civil War: The Initiative, which seemed to indicate that Captain America is still alive, and being held prisoner by the Pro-Registration forces may not have been exactly what they seemed on the surface, and events related to those comments will play out in upcoming issues of New Avengers.

I think the rough translation of that is: "Fuck guys, we couldn't keep our continuity straight as usual.  We're working on shoehorning in an in-story explanation right now because we're genetically unable to admit our continuity fuck-ups and instead spin long, implausible, fan-fictionesque explanations.  In other words:  Working as Intended."

[Llava]

I just assumed she was bullshitting and trying to get Spider-Woman to come along without a fight.

[HaemishM]

I just assumed she was bullshitting and trying to get Spider-Woman to come along without a fight.

Why bother when she just lets her go anyway?

Total retardation is the only explanation.

[Triforcer]

http://www.slate.com/id/2161469/fr/flyout

Although this is about the least likely source for comic news on earth, read the part near the bottom about what the "Marvel spokesperson" says.