Civil War

[HaemishM]

Yeah, you know Cap will be back in some way. And based on who has been in charge of Marvel Editorial, it'll be dumb as two bags of hammers.

Also, that article reminds me why I hate Slate.

[Furiously]

Did I read that right that there is a 5 part series coming out on his death?

[HaemishM]

I think they were saying that Civil War was a 5-part series, when really it was a 7-parter, but maybe Marvel has found a way to squeeze another 5-parter out of total shit.

[Velorath]

I think they were saying that Civil War was a 5-part series, when really it was a 7-parter, but maybe Marvel has found a way to squeeze another 5-parter out of total shit.

No it's actually a five part mini called Fallen Son, with each issue focusing on one character as well as on one of the five stages of grief (or whatever).  Its announcement a few months back was actually one of the first hints people got that Cap was going to die (in that they announced that the series would be about characters trying to deal with a death that was caused by the end of Civil War).

Edit: Linkage

Also Cap related Colbert Report video clip

[Kitsune]

Even if they did kill Cap off for good, which they didn't, they suck ass for A: killing him with a fucking pistol and B: giving him a stupid, meaningless death.  For all Qesada bullshitted about 'giving deaths meaning', let's look at the score:

Goliath - dead - nobody cares.
Typeface - dead- nobody cares.
Three unidentified supers dead in big climactic fight - nobody cares.
Cap - maybe died like chump.

[stray]

They've pretty much killed Spider-Man and Iron Man too. As far as I'm concerned.

[Velorath]

Now if they'll just kill Cyclops already...

[HaemishM]

They need to leave Cyclops alone. They've already removed his balls by making him queen bitch to the White Queen. They show as much contempt for Cyclops as most fans do.

Cap died like a punk bitch. Mace Windu had a more honorable death.

[Velorath]

They need to leave Cyclops alone. They've already removed his balls by making him queen bitch to the White Queen. They show as much contempt for Cyclops as most fans do.

Cap died like a punk bitch. Mace Windu had a more honorable death.

I don't know, getting shot point blank several times by Sharon Carter wasn't too bad.  I think the problem was that especially due to the art in the scene where he gets shot, and the fact that they don't show Sharon's involment until the reveal at the end, people think it was the sniper that killed him.  The sniper only got him in the shoulder (which Cap intentionally used to block the shot from hitting one of the security guys).

[Kitsune]

Yeah, and apparently NOBODY WAS LOOKING when she just whips out a pistol and unloads into Steve's belly, not one single person's attention was drawn to the newly-shot superhero.  Fucking SPEEDBALL survives the Lee Harvey Oswald treatment, then they do it again to Captain America and it's fatal.  (Maybe.)

My dissatisfaction with Marvel has reached an all-time high with Civil War, and I'd thought it couldn't get any higher after House of M.  After having been fed this shit sandwich of a god-awful nonsense story, I'm hoping that enough people stop buying Marvel books to put them into deep enough financial trouble that they fire the hell out of their current staff and hire someone competent.

DC does Infinite Crisis and 52 and characters change and die and the characters actually matter, that's an example of a big event done right.  And then, fucking Marvel...  I swear, if I could mail them a punch to the balls, I'd do it.

[Llava]

I really don't feel that Infinite Crisis was very superior.  It pretty much fizzled at the end.  There wasn't that much progress, and bringing back the multiple universes and Monitor(s) is fucking stupid.  I'd much, much rather have a story like Civil War, but just executed better.  That's my only problem with this- they couldn't keep their shit straight and managed to make what should have been a pretty straightforward event require clarification on dozens of points, while some events outright contradict other events.

But I'll take a politically charged superhero division over punching the walls of reality any day.  That sort of shit is why I disliked House of M- reality altering happens way, way, way too often.  Write a story with the world you've made.

[HaemishM]

I really don't feel that Infinite Crisis was very superior.

It's ok to be wrong. 

I'll take reality-altering wall punches to an absolute refusal to characterize established brand-name characters correctly. And multiple universes (I always loved the old Earth-1/Earth-2 stuff), and the Monitor, etc. etc. etc.

[Llava]

My problem with Infinite Crisis and a lot of DC events is that it feels like they're just rewriting the universe, rather than telling a story in the universe they've written.

[Margalis]

DC has that problem as lot with Elseworlds stuff as well...as someone said earlier they'd rather write in some alternate universe than the one they actually invented it a lot of the time.

[Trippy]

[SPOILER ALERT!] The New Cap?

[Ironwood]

Gay.

[Lantyssa]

Not enough sense of style for that. :-D

[Velorath]

[SPOILER ALERT!] The New Cap?

I'm guessing it will be a quick 1-3 month story, as I suspect that Brubaker has his own story that he wants to tell as far as replacing Cap goes and I doubt the Punisher is involved.

[Llava]

Too obvious at this point.  They don't put up pictures of things like that with the question "IS THIS THE NEW CAPTAIN AMERICA?!" except as a tease.  If it was permanent, it would say "GET READY FOR THE NEW CAPTAIN AMERICA!"

Agree with Velorath. Temporary thing, something else is coming down the pipes.

It's strange, I really don't care most of the time when a superhero dies.  I mean, the comic book geek in me can get worked up about it, but I don't really care.  But Steve Rogers being dead just struck me differently.  Like I was almost (highlight that almost) depressed.  I thought about just not reading any comics anymore.  I really was just getting to really like the character.

[Ironwood]

If Cap's really dead, what about 1602 ?

I loved what they did with Cap there.

[Velorath]

For those fond of one-shots featuring Cap and Iron Man arguing about Civil War, The Confession has two such arguements.  Well, one argument really.  The first half is just Iron Man talking to Cap's corpse.

[HaemishM]

For those fond of one-shots featuring Cap and Iron Man arguing about Civil War, The Confession has two such arguements.  Well, one argument really.  The first half is just Iron Man talking to Cap's corpse.

That book was worse than the Avengers. Why must Bendis make every fucking character sound like a sorority airhead hooked on crank? All the heroes went from badasses to chatty Cathy's on their MySpace pages.

[Kitsune]

The many stupid faces of Captain America!

CIVIL WAR (tm): FRONT LINES - "I'm so sorry for what I did, tell that to Tony!"

CIVIL WAR (tm): CONFESSIONS - "Fuck you, Tony, you stupid fuck!"

God damn Bendis and his shitty writing.  And damn Marvel for their shitty editors and the gargantuan contradictions they let fall through the cracks everywhere.

[Velorath]

Bendis just needs to stick to characters he knows, like Luke Cage.  As a fan of a lot of Dan Slott's stuff, I'm hoping his Avengers book will at least be readable, although I'm questioning the sudden decision to turn it into an ongoing.  Actually the non-continuity book (more or less intended for kids) Marvel Adventures: The Avengers is probably some of the best Avengers stuff I've read in a few years.  Issue #9 which came out a few months ago and has the Avengers getting turned into M.O.D.O.K.'s was an instant classic.

[Velorath]

The first issue of Fallen Son:  The Death of Captain America - Wolverine came out last Wednesday.  The basic premise of this issue (this is the one that focuses on the first stage of grief, which would be denial) is that Wolverine doesn't really believe that Cap is dead.  It's certainly understandable given that most of the readers don't believe that Cap is dead for the long term either.  There's some ok character moments here, but it doesn't really add up to anything other than telling the readers that Cap is really dead.  I understand that it's just the first part of a 5 part story, and it's by no means horrible, which in and of itself is an accomplishment given the circumstances.  Seeing other people react to Cap's death though is something that should happen in either Cap's book, or in the book of whatever character is doing the reacting.  This mini needs to have an actual story to tell rather than just being a series of character moments, and if it has an actual overall story, that certainly doesn't come through here.  I'm also not sure how it fits with Caps body being used as bait in New Avengers (which also involved Wolverine).

[HaemishM]

I'm also not sure how it fits with Caps body being used as bait in New Avengers (which also involved Wolverine).

It fits by being another book they can sell with Wolverine in it. Otherwise, it sounds like something covered well enough in the fucking New New Avengers crappy book.

[Velorath]

Having read the second two issues of Fallen Son... the main thought on my mind is that I'm already sick of the post-Civil War MU.  I'm tired of hearing the same characters spout the same talking points over and over again.  This mini is supposed to be about the reaction to Cap's death but that frequently takes a back seat to the pro/anti-reistration drama.  Hawkeye makes his return known, and Iron Man wastes no time in manipulating him into becoming the new Cap and taking him out to arrest two of the anti-reg Young Avengers?  After working with Hawkeye all this time, doesn't he know Clint better than that?  This guy lead the fucking Thunderbolts when they were still wanted by the law.  What would make Tony think that he has any interest in hunting down and arresting heroes, and in Cap's uniform no less?

Oh, and Hawkeye is really good at using Cap's shield.  Because he's a marksman.  Apparently the MU only has one generic weapon skill and if you master it, you've become an expert in using all weapons.  Using swords as Ronin makes some sense because he trained with the Swordsman.  I'm not buying this though.

[HaemishM]

Hawkeye as Ronin was just fucking stupidity of the highest caliber. I think Hawkeye has used Cap's shield once or twice before (I know Wonder Man has). But yes, the whole fucking Fallen Son series has been atrocious. It's been repetitious shit. I'm still waiting for someone to tell a story about Civil War that doesn't make me want to fistfuck the writer to death.

[Furiously]

Hawkeye as Ronin was just fucking stupidity of the highest caliber. I think Hawkeye has used Cap's shield once or twice before (I know Wonder Man has). But yes, the whole fucking Fallen Son series has been atrocious. It's been repetitious shit. I'm still waiting for someone to tell a story about Civil War that doesn't make me want to fistfuck the writer to death.

I thought this was excellent.

[Velorath]

Hawkeye as Ronin was just fucking stupidity of the highest caliber. I think Hawkeye has used Cap's shield once or twice before (I know Wonder Man has).

I agree.  I'm just saying that I understand that why Clint might have at least some training with swords.  I don't think they're a good weapon for him to use, since they aren't the easiest weapons to use in a non-lethal manner, but when U.S.Agent was first being trained as Cap's replacement, it was shown just how tricky it is to learn how to use Cap's shield (to the point where the government had to get the Taskmaster to train him).

[HaemishM]

And the retcon retardery continues.

New Avengers Illuminati #3 is out. The collected idiocy meets the sins of the past when the FUCKING BEYONDER comes to Earth. And not the all-powerful "fight for me or I squash you" Beyonder from well, beyond, but the leisure suit "I look like Jim Shooter for some strange reason, except with a shitty afro sheen perm" Beyonder.

And he's not really an all-powerful being from beyond the universe, HE'S A FUCKING INHUMAN. A MUTANT INHUMAN.

I mean really, this just has to stop. There's a certain point where you just can't retcon anymore. Secret Wars 2 was an abomination on comics and should be forgotten as quickly as possible. It was terrible and trying to retcon some non-suck into it is just going to make you the writer look like a fucking idiot, and the customers who buy it look like fucking tools. STOP IT.

[Velorath]

Retcons of 20+ year old stories = good storytelling.

[Teleku]

I just watched Pan's Labyrinth tonight, and your avatar is offically creepy and bad now Velorath.  More so than it was before, when I didnt know what the fuck it was.  He eats babies for christ sake!



Thats all I can really add to this Civil War thread.  Just let it die the horrible death it deserves.  Maybe we can start a new post-civil war Initiative giant marvel universe cluster fuck thread to bitch in ;).

[Velorath]

He eats babies for christ sake!

We all have our quirks.

[Jimbo]

Damn I wish I hadn't stopped reading comics...then again with trying to catch up with this series, it has made me glad I'm not buying...

Can any of you all fill me in?

1.  Is Thor and the Asgard's still dead?

2.  Was Hawkeye dead during the Civil War too?

3.  Was very lame for the Punisher to come on and then not obey Cap's orders...they are both great soldiers and should understand how to take and give orders...then again they have been making Punisher more psycho.

4.  So I guess we will wait till Cap, Hawk, and Thor somehow wake up and remember what it means to be avengers and fight for what is right even if the public is being stupid (and that was a lame idea on the workers backing the psycho Ironman), I say this as I remember reading a bunch of times when the good guys get hammered and submit, but it usually is those 3 that figure out what they need to do. 

5.  Where was the Hulk?

Hopefully this crap doesn't run over onto the video games coming out.