Civil War

[Lantyssa]

Civil War is total wank.

I have no idea what the fuck they're thinking.

They are trying to destroy the Marvel Universe (and their business).  That is about the only thing civil wars accomplish in the short term.

[HaemishM]

I finally read all of Runaways and then the Civil War: Young Avengers and Runaways. Holy shit is the whole continuity thing just totally out of whack. The stuff in Civil War doesn't seem to fit right in the Runaways continuity, based on what Chase is doing in #20. Why aren't the editors keeping track of this shit? It would be one thing to ignore continuity if the story was served, but it isn't, especially if something major happens in the Civil War bits. Not to mention removing the whole dramatic tension of "will he live or not?"

[Velorath]

Yeah, I've been trying to figure out if Runaways/Young Avengers is a big continuity fuck up or if Marvel really doesn't care that it's fucking up the payoff for a currently running storyline.

[stray]

I gave up on the Civil War almost from the beginning. Nothing good could from it.

Well, almost nothing. Like I said, Planet Hulk rocks 

[Velorath]

Well, almost nothing. Like I said, Planet Hulk rocks 

Until they fuck up the ending so it leads into next summer's big story, "World War Hulk".

[Surlyboi]

Necropostage for the win, but Deadpool once again renews my faith in the decision that he's the coolest comic character to ever come out of the Marvel universe.

[Velorath]

Read various Civil War tie-ins yesterday and today.  Frontline 6 and Young Avengers/Runaways 3, ASM 535 in particular.  Frontline was especially disappointing in that it's focusing on the sub-plot of the pro-registration side releasing and mind-controlling super villains.  That whole sub-plot... it just seems to me like Marvel has painted themselves into a corner by not wanting to make the Registration Act itself seem right or wrong so instead they kinda cheat by throwing in Thor clones and mind-controlled bad guys.  Oh, and shipping prisoners off into another dimension and then saying they have no right to a trial because they aren't in the US.  They've taken the focus off of the Act itself because they obviously don't know how to resolve an actual political storyline, and instead they give us Reed, Tony, and Maria Hill's acts of supervillany to divert our attention away from the fact that Marvel doesn't actually have a story to tell here.

[Llava]

I thought Runaways/Young Avengers was fantastic.  But it offered me a lot of my favorite things- a Kree badass going totally nuts, Vision doing his intangibility thing, the Runaways altogether... some of my favorite comic book things.

But with Stark and Reed, basically yes, they've gone to acting outright evil now and there better be a damn good explanation.  I'm going to keep picking it up, because I enjoy the stories for what they are, but even I'm having a hard time justifying it in the Marvel Universe at this point.

[HaemishM]

They've taken the focus off of the Act itself because they obviously don't know how to resolve an actual political storyline, and instead they give us Reed, Tony, and Maria Hill's acts of supervillany to divert our attention away from the fact that Marvel doesn't actually have a story to tell here.

Which has been my whole point about the Civil War story. Either the writers have written these characters badly by ignoring the way they've acted in the past, or they have a "secret plot" that's making them act in complete opposition to the way they've acted in the past. The first is inexcusable, the second is a very delicate thing to pull off well, and so far, nothing has shown me they can pull it off well when the big villain is revealed. I mean, who has the telepathic power to pull this off? Shadow King? Xavier (before he lost his powers)?

Of course, I've heard rumors that Onslaught is returning, and if they make this an Onslaught plot, I'll have to slap the shit out of someone. Onslaught was a TERRIBLE story and a terrible idea. It made Xavier into a creepy old pervert man with a thing for 16-year old Jean Grey. Bringing him back would be really, really retarded.

[HaemishM]

It gets worse. According to the latest Captain America, it's likely that the Red Skull and Dr. Faustus are behind the whole thing, or at least some part of the whole thing.

Le sigh.

[HaemishM]

And the latest Amazing Spider-Man makes it even more painfully obvious that the series has gone off the rails. Tony Stark is about 2 steps from mustache twirling, and they are making pains to imply that both Stark and Richards are making a killing on no-bid contracts for the Civil War, just like Haliburton. It's a clumsy allegory to real-life events.

[Velorath]

It gets worse. According to the latest Captain America, it's likely that the Red Skull and Dr. Faustus are behind the whole thing, or at least some part of the whole thing.

Le sigh.

I think their plot is more or less unrelated to Civil War.  Faustus even refers to it simply as fortuitous circumstances.

[Luxor]

Is it wrong that I find the fan parodies of CW4 better than the real thing?

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/rage/index1.htm or
http://www.spacklecube.com/civilwar4/

[HaemishM]

Is it wrong that I find the fan parodies of CW4 better than the real thing?

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/rage/index1.htm or
http://www.spacklecube.com/civilwar4/

No, after all, they are written better.

[Mazakiel]

Between this Civil War stuff I've been reading about, and bits and pieces of X-Men when I'm bored (Recently read Dark Genesis or whatever it was), it seems like Marvel is hellbent on turning all of their old and/or iconic characters into total raging assholes.  Xavier doing all sorts of shady mindwipe stuff, Reed and Stark in Civil War, etc.  And even when not totally altering characterization, they seem hellbent on pointlessly mucking around with continuity.  There are way too many shitty ideas that aren't getting shot down like they should.  I'm glad I got out of regularly buying comics when I did. 

So besides Runaways and Nextwave, is anything that Marvel's putting out worth actually spending money on?

[HaemishM]

So besides Runaways and Nextwave, is anything that Marvel's putting out worth actually spending money on?

Believe it or not, the last 3 or 4 issues of X-Men have been quite good. Though I hated the Deadly Genesis storyline, the Ed Brubaker run of Uncanny X-Men is dealing with the aftermath of this story and it's quite good. The Adjectiveless X-Men book is also putting together a decent story, even though it included Sabretooth (who has been overexposed almost as much as Wolverine) and Cable. Astonishing X-Men is good, though it's suffered a lot recently from just being extended out too long. Most of that is because the book is bi-monthly and with Whedon's normal slow pacing, it's hard to keep up with. Get it in a trade paperback.

X-Factor is also quite good, being written by Peter David. Daredevil would be good, if it weren't for the fact that it's a continuation of a 5-year old story started by Bendis.

[Velorath]

In addition to Haem's suggestions I'd suggest giving Brubaker's Captain America book a try.  Brubaker's new crime book Criminal, and Brian K. Vaughan's Dr. Strange mini come out tomorrow, and the Ares TPB releases the week following.  Some people would also probably recommend Ultimates despite the constant scheduling problems (and the creative team is due to change shortly).

[HaemishM]

Damn, I forgot the Captain America book. If it weren't for the Civil War shit, I'd highly recommend it. But I just know that's going to come along to fuck up the story soon.

[Luxor]

So besides Runaways and Nextwave, is anything that Marvel's putting out worth actually spending money on?

Believe it or not, the last 3 or 4 issues of X-Men have been quite good. Though I hated the Deadly Genesis storyline, the Ed Brubaker run of Uncanny X-Men is dealing with the aftermath of this story and it's quite good. The Adjectiveless X-Men book is also putting together a decent story, even though it included Sabretooth (who has been overexposed almost as much as Wolverine) and Cable. Astonishing X-Men is good, though it's suffered a lot recently from just being extended out too long. Most of that is because the book is bi-monthly and with Whedon's normal slow pacing, it's hard to keep up with. Get it in a trade paperback.

X-Factor is also quite good, being written by Peter David. Daredevil would be good, if it weren't for the fact that it's a continuation of a 5-year old story started by Bendis.

Whats the one with Layla Miller ( she knows things! ) in it? That doesnt completely suck. Apart from that and the two books Mazakiel already mentioned, almost all my Marvel stuff comes from the Ultimate line which can all be picked up in oversized hardcover, a huge selling point for me.

[Velorath]

Whats the one with Layla Miller ( she knows things! ) in it? That doesnt completely suck.

That would be X-Factor.

[Mazakiel]

Awesome, thanks for the info. 

[Velorath]

Civil War Frontline 7:  My god, you mean releasing villains like the Green Goblin might backfire on the Pro-Registration side?!?  What an amazing twist!

[HaemishM]

I swear the longer the Civil War series of books go on, the more like mustache-twirling villains guys appear. Jenkins is a better writer than this (ok, sometimes). The more I looked at the exchange between shadowy figure #00982818373 and Norman Obsorn, I kept thinking it was Reed Richards (though it could just as easily be Hank Pym since he is nucking futz). I also kept thinking of bad piano music and a busty female superheroine tied down to train tracks.

It needs to end soon.

[Ironwood]

Marvel have totally lost the plot anyway.

I read The Other today.  It was awful.

[Velorath]

Issue 5 came out yesterday.  It was fairly inoffensive, but maybe that's just because very, very little actually happened.  Spidey leaves the pro-reg side, escapes from Iron Man and S.H.I.E.L.D, gets beat up by two of the new Thunderbolts who promptly get shot by Punisher who wants to help Cap's side.  Cap tries to decide if he wants Punisher's help.  That's about it.

[Teleku]

The first book of the new Punisher series (War Journal v2) was actually pretty good.  Then again, Punisher is one of my favorite marvel heroes, so maybe that helps.  Still, was pretty good, even if they made the funny inner monologe jokes a bit more wacky than he usually has.  He shoots Stiltman in the crotch with an RPG, then executes him.  Hard not to like.

Anybody else reading the Punisher: Max line?  Really like that series, and would be one of the other suggestions I would throw out for good marvel books.


On the whole, I agree with what you guys are saying about civil war now.  The idea had alot of potential, but they`ve pretty well fucked it up.  Its like they dont really have any direction with the story now.  I can see how Tony Stark and others could be convinced to go to pro registration, since in all real world respects, what they are currently doing would NEVER be allowed without government control.  But the characterization has been horrible, and they havent convincingly showed why they feel so strongly about registration now.  They just sort of do, and are now acting like facist for no apparent reason.  Wasted oportunity on the whole.

[Velorath]

I can see how Tony Stark and others could be convinced to go to pro registration, since in all real world respects, what they are currently doing would NEVER be allowed without government control. 

Part of my problem with the story is the fact that it has always been a little silly that heroes are more or less allowed to dispense justice on the streets as they see fit.  It's just one of those things we accept about Marvel and DC comics.  You accept that those worlds aren't realistic and proceed to enjoy the stories.  For Marvel, after decades of publishing comics, to all of a sudden shine the spotlight on something that we've intentionally ignored for years is just stupid.   To accept that heroes weren't really being regulated by the government for the most part is just a standard of the genre.  To accept a story about the government just now deciding to enact registration and regulation of superpowers, some 60 years after Captain America, the original Human Torch, and Namor first operated just seems like complete bullshit.

[Teleku]

Thats a good point and I agree with you overall that its something you just sort of accept.  But it is something I feel you could work into the universe since they are trying to make things a little more realistic on the political/government side of things in the MU than they did back in the 60`s, heh.  As I said though, they screwed up actually implimenting the whole idea, so moot point anyways now I guess.

Some people would also probably recommend Ultimates despite the constant scheduling problems (and the creative team is due to change shortly).

Despite the horrible delays, I would recommend Ultimates heavily as well.  The whole series has been great.  Also, the new creative team is going to consist of Jeph Loeb and Joe Madureira, so I`m not really worried about the shift (looking forward to it actually).

[Velorath]

Thats a good point and I agree with you overall that its something you just sort of accept.  But it is something I feel you could work into the universe since they are trying to make things a little more realistic on the political/government side of things in the MU than they did back in the 60`s, heh. 

It's something that could work, but it would be hard.  What if DC did a Superman story where someone just recognizes that Clark Kent is Superman with glasses on?  Sure it would be "realisitic" but we've already had to accept throughout the history of the character that people just don't seem to make the connection.  What if Marvel did a story where a villain succeeds in destroying the Earth because he carries out his plan somewhere other than New York City, where all the fucking heroes are, and for once nobody just happens to stumble across his plan either?  It would be "realistic" that out of the thousands of world destroying plans villains have come up with in comics over the years, at least one of them would have succeeded.  It's just not a good idea to mess with the ground rules of a fictional universe with 60+ years of history.

[Margalis]

Plus we all know that the Civil War stuff will blow over and in the long run the government isn't going to regulate heroes. What might be cool is if they did for a substantial period of time, like 5 real-life years, before it finally blew over. No chance of that happening though.

This Civil War sort of reminds me of Damage Control, except DC was supposed to be a joke.

[HaemishM]

The new Frontline keeps hinting more and more that the whole reason for the Civil War was about money. If that's what they ultimately make this monstrosity about, it will just kill what little validity the story has. I mean, I'm all for a bit of realism in my comics, but something about this whole thing is just not clicking. It's as if they have thrown every single thing about the way the universe works (including the way characters have thought for decades) out the window. Spider-Man would never have revealed his identity, especially not with a famous wife to protect. He'd already seen the consequences of villains knowing his identity (Gwen Stacy, the whole Clone saga bullshit).

It looks like what they've been trying to accomplish is 1) out Spider-man to get mainstream buzz, 2) make Iron Man Director of Shield, 3) add another Avengers book done by Bendis and 4) be topical with potshots at the stupidity of the current administration. They just happen to have picked the most hamfisted way to do it.

And as a bonus, they've taken Wolverine into obscenely stupid territory (from just regular old stupid territory). In the latest issue, we see all his skin burned off his body just leaving the skeleton. And we are to assume his brain wasn't cooked in the process, what with being trapped in the equivalent of a metal pot. They've taken his regen ability to absurd proportions.

[Ironwood]

Bone Marrow, dude.  He can totally regrow from bone marrow.

It's so he forgets his origin again.

 


(Incidentally, if anyone's still reading Ultimate Spider-Man:Clone Sage, please stop before you DAMAGE YOURSELF.)

[Teleku]

(Incidentally, if anyone's still reading Ultimate Spider-Man:Clone Sage, please stop before you DAMAGE YOURSELF.)

Hahaha, yeah.  I remember looking at the list of upcomming Ultimate Spiderman issues awhile ago, saw Clone Saga, and screamed.  Why on gods green earth would they even think about trying to redo that thing in any form at all?  Then I figured it was probably just for nostalgia that they used the name, and wouldnt go fucking up shit as bad as the original. 

Stupid me.

[Margalis]

Wait, the Ultimates, the whole point of which is to ditch useless shitty continuity, is introducing the clone story? LOL.

My problem with Ultimates is that in 10 years they will be in the same place the regular comics are now, and need another Ulitmates 2 or something.

[CmdrSlack]

Wow.

I've been reading this entire thread thinking, "Ok, people here are cynical, I pass that comics store each day, maybe I should check out this Civil War series, it sounds like it may make for a cool Marvel Super Heroes PnP campaign."

I really thought perhaps people were overstating the stupid.

Then I saw this:

And as a bonus, they've taken Wolverine into obscenely stupid territory (from just regular old stupid territory). In the latest issue, we see all his skin burned off his body just leaving the skeleton. And we are to assume his brain wasn't cooked in the process, what with being trapped in the equivalent of a metal pot. They've taken his regen ability to absurd proportions.

Thank you Haem.  Thank you for saving me the money.