Civil War

[Llava]

Ooo! The Hulk could punch the walls of reality!

[Teleku]

I've gone on a Comic kick again lately, and downloaded all the current Civil War stuff.  And while I do understand some of the complaints, I'm going to have to side with Llava on this.  I'm liking it so far.  Sometimes I think you guys just hate everything ;).  We'll see how it goes though, as I agree with sloppyness on continuity.  I also have read very little in comics compared to you guys, so maybe I'm just not jaded yet.

Do you hate the Ultimate Universe as well HaemishM, when you say your not likeing any marvel books?  I've been enjoying all the comics set in it quite a bit.  Marvel seems to be doing good there, imo.  I've also really enjoyed all The Punisher stuff that Ennis has been doing for several years now.  Probably my favorite comic actually.

[Velorath]

Sometimes I think you guys just hate everything ;).

That's only because nobody ever comments in the threads I make for the comics I actually like.

Edit: For the record there are about 14 books I can name off the top of my head that I purchase and enjoy on a monthly (or however often they come out ) basis, almost all of which I've mentioned here.  If I don't like Civil War, it's not because I hate comics, it's just because I don't like Civil War.

Funny you should mention the Ultimate Universe though as I think Civil War would actually fit much better with the characters there.

[HaemishM]

The only Ultimate stuff I've gotten a chance to read is the first 40 issues or so of Ultimate Spider-Man. While I feel Bendis got the Spider-Man character down, I finally just stopped reading the book. It was ok, not nearly as bad as some of the stuff they've done in the MU continuity with Spider-Man, but it came down to the fact that I really just don't like Spider-Man as a character, even when he's written well. The changes made in the Ultimate version were a mixed bag. I liked the Venom origin better in Ultimate, but hated the Ultimate version of Aunt May.

As for things I like, I really liked the Infinite Crisis stuff, as well as some of the One Year Later stuff and 52. I've been a big fan of the Teen Titans and Outsiders, the Green Arrow, Greg Rucka's Wonder Woman, the Flash books right up until the end. In days past, I was more of a Marvel fan than DC, but I've really switched over. I just think DC is putting out a better, more coherent and consistent stable of books. Marvel's only real winner to me is Nextwave. Everything else I'm either not reading yet (Runaways, Exiles), has been uneven or hard to swallow (Daredevil, my favorite comic character ever, Young Avengers, Astonishing X-Men), or has just plain sucked it (New Avengers, X-Books). I will say the Brubaker Uncanny X-Men run looks interesting, even though I hated Deadly Genesis and the Vulcan character, but I'm not sure how long they are going to keep that team of X-Men in that book.

[Velorath]

I will say the Brubaker Uncanny X-Men run looks interesting, even though I hated Deadly Genesis and the Vulcan character, but I'm not sure how long they are going to keep that team of X-Men in that book.

My understanding is that it's a 12 issue arc.  First issue was pretty good, although I've never much cared for Polaris.  I like the rest of the team though.

[Llava]

Funny you should mention the Ultimate Universe though as I think Civil War would actually fit much better with the characters there.

I could agree with that, but that Captain America would be in favor of it and you'd probably just have Thor against it, since he's the only leftist I can think of in that universe off the top of my head.  And they've already played the Thor/Captain America conflict up so much, it wouldn't really be anything different.

Haemish, you really ought to read the Ultimates books.  Those are quite good.  Ultimate Spider-Man is more geared towards kids than the usual Marvel Books, and the Ultimates is more geared towards adults.

[stray]

I liked Ultimate Spidey at first, but it kinda degenerated. Not for the juvenile stuff so much as it was Bendis' writing style and plot ideas (if I recall, it's still better than Ultimate X-Men though).

Ultimate Iron Man was probably my favorite -- despite me previously not liking the character very much.

One caveat though -- I only liked Ultimate Iron-Man before Shield got involved (so it wasn't very many issues that I liked). Ultimate Nick Fury/Shield sucks.

On another note: I just discovered Jim Steranko (yeah, I'm a newb). In his hands, Nick Fury is the shit. I had no idea. It's like Frazetta, Steve McQueen, and Austin Powers combined.

[stray]

Sometimes I think you guys just hate everything ;).

As far as Marvel goes, I like everything Surfer related. I love the recent Planet Hulk series. And as I mentioned above, I think the short lived career of Jim Steranko was the shit.

But nobody comments on these things here. My posts don't exist. Unless I mention stuff multiple times. 

[Llava]

So, I think the Surfer is a cool idea.

But I have a question:

A surfboard?  Really?  Why?

[stray]

I think Lee gave him a surfboard because he was always trying to tap into the "hip" counter-culture of his time.

Plus it meets two needs for a unique flying character:

1) Self propelled flight was getting old even back when Stan Lee created him. A surfboard provided new kinds of imagery (probably the same reason why he gave Spidey his web slinging).

2) It gives artists the ability to draw a character who travels through space, but isn't confined in a ship. That way you can draw the character directly against all of those celestial backdrops. It'd be a lot more boring if he was sitting in a cockpit all the time, don't you think?

[Llava]

Well, right, but a surfboard just seems like a very strange choice.

But I guess you're right about self-propelled flight.

[stray]

a very strange choice

Personally, I love surfing, but back then, all the kids loved it. Even kids from Nebraska. There was even a whole subgenre of rock 'n' roll music devoted exclusively to surfing. There is no other sport, activity, or hobby that has been celebrated in quite the same way again.

So anyways, it may seem strange now, but it wasn't strange back then.

[Llava]

I'd get all that, except the character's not from Earth.  If he was a human, I could see him requesting a surfboard in the early days.

But I'll just have to accept it, even if it is ever so slightly immersion breaking.

[stray]

Oh, I see what you're saying...

Is "Surfboards are cool" good enough then? 

Also, Lee is generally inclined to name the beginning of his characters' first and last names with the same letters. That's just how his mind works sometimes. Peter Parker, Bruce Banner, Reed Richards, the Fantastic Four, Doctor Doom, and so forth. I'm sure the words "Silver Surfer" popped into his head with big lights and he just rolled with it.

Lastly, it's a pretty simple device. Surely, if alien worlds have oceans and wave breaks, then they've come up with idea of surfboards as well. Just like if aliens lived amongst harsh terrains and had feet, then more than likely they have shoes too. Or if their planet had the technology of flight, then they've probably taken into account aerodynamics and equipped their vehicles with wings.

[EDIT]

Hmm...

Apparently, Galactus turned him silver and gave him a surfboard simply because the two things were among Norrin's childhood fantasies. I never read that before, and I'm not sure which issue it came from (the info is from Wikipedia).


Anywho...

Shall we now discuss the myriad effects of gamma ray radiation? Or why does Superman's native Kryptonian garb carry an odd resemblance to a superhero costume?

[Llava]

That native kryptonian stuff was always silly to me.

That's not a kryptonian symbol on your chest.  It's a giant S.  It stands for "Super".  Duh.

[HaemishM]

Do you hate the Ultimate Universe as well HaemishM, when you say your not likeing any marvel books?  I've been enjoying all the comics set in it quite a bit.  Marvel seems to be doing good there, imo.  I've also really enjoyed all The Punisher stuff that Ennis has been doing for several years now.  Probably my favorite comic actually.

I've now read the first six issues of the Ultimates Vol. 1. Yeah, THIS series I like. There are a few bits I don't agree with, like the Sam Jackson as Nick Fury thing, or the little conversational bits about what actor should play the Ultimates, but overall, I like the direction. It feels different enough from the MU that I'm not bothered by the overboard updating they've done, and the story is believable. I also like the fact that every character has a different voice, one of my biggest complaints about Bendis.

[Velorath]

Read through Civil War:  Frontline #3.  Battlestar, Typeface, and Solo are on the anti-registration side.  Kinda makes me hope Iron Man recruits Scourge to track down non-registered heroes because these guys need the "Justice is Served" bullet to the head.  Aside from Battlestar I don't see Cap wanting to ally with these guys.  Given their track-records I'm not sure why these guys don't just retire.

I have no idea who Thunderclap and Bantam are.  This sequence kinda help me understand what one of the overall problems I have with this story is though.  Incidents like this and Stamford would have realisitically happened on a somewhat frequent basis in the MU.  As a comic fan though you have to accept that somehow heroes almost magically are able to avoid schools getting blown up in combat or accidentally knocking another hero into a tanker full of gas.  It's hard to get readers to accept decades worth of stories where accidents and  collateral damage are very limited even during a lot of the biggest battles and then try to make things more "realistic".

[Margalis]

Have you ever read Damage Control? It was a funny take on that sort of issue.

[Velorath]

Have you ever read Damage Control? It was a funny take on that sort of issue.

Yeah their books were entertaining.  They're actually supposed to make an appearance in the Sept. issue of Wolverine I think.  Still, I think the reason why they don't pop up in books too often is because it's best not to the think too much about the logistics of cleaning up the the aftermath of all the superhero battles.  The idea works as a mini though.

[Llava]

Still loving this story.

Picked up Cable and Deadpool as well, and I actually thought the writing was a little weak this time around.  Not bad, mind you, but not as good as usual.

[Velorath]

I'll bring up New Avengers #22 here since it's a Civil War tie-in, and suprisingly it's a mostly decent issue.  Bendis writes a pretty good Luke Cage and at this point in the crossover there's no point to getting hung up on Iron Man's characterization.  Hell, with Iron Man being the "villain" characters like Luke Cage actually get to do something for a change.  It's a nice change of pace.  The downside to this issue though which kept me from being able to actually enjoy it is the artwork.  It's dark, muddy, and in a few spots confusing.  Once the action starts up, there are panels where it's hard to tell what's going on.

Also read the Young Avengers/Runaways tie-in.  It's not written by the regular writer of either series which wouldn't be a problem except that Runaways Vol. 2 #18 which just came out a week or two ago had some very important plot developments.  This book has to acknowledge the developments as it takes place 1 month later, but it can't really advance the plot threads.  I don't want to go into details and ruin anything for people who might be following Runways in trades or whatever, but there's something that just seems really off given the end of issue 18.  On the other hand I can see this mini getting Civil War readers interested in both books.

[HaemishM]

I just read New Avengers 22 as well. That was the best damn issue of New Avengers that has been done since the book started. Bendis actually does "GET" the street level characters. He writes Cage as well as can be expected (though I still think the "voice" of Bendis's dialogue is too clipped). The artwork can get confusing, but I like the moodiness. It reminds me of early Sienkiewicz. I've long since accepted that both Iron Man and Ms. Marvel are characterized completely wrong by the entire Civil War story, so I just shrug off their acting like Bradburian Firemen and moved on.

[Simond]

Picked up Cable and Deadpool as well, and I actually thought the writing was a little weak this time around.  Not bad, mind you, but not as good as usual.

Was that the clash of the titans between Deadpool and Squirrel Girl?

[Llava]

Yes, that was the highlight of the book.

[Velorath]

Yes, that was the highlight of the book.

It fell kinda flat for me since Slott had pretty much done the same kinda thing recently (several times over actually, having her defeat Modok, Thanos, and Terrax in the GLX-Mas special).

[Simond]

I still say that's Squirrel Girl's secondary mutation - she can beat anyone in a fight.

[Llava]

Nitro has never been that powerful. Period. He suddenly went from small but devestating explosions to taking out city blocks.

Turns out, you're right.

From Wolverine 44:

Nitro: What if... What if I gave you somebody else?  Another name?
W:  The name of somebody else who killed over 600 people?
N:  Yeah... yeah, that's right.  You ever stop to wonder how I did that?  It's not like I'd ever had that kinda power before.
W:  You got maybe ten seconds.

It's a new use of something that's been shown before, and a plausible explanation.

[Velorath]

Doesn't that make it kinda hard to blame the New Warriors for what happened then?  Instead of being a careless superhero team who took on a group of villains who were out of their league, it seems like they would have beaten the villains pretty soundly if not for Nitro having some sort of unknown upgrade.  The Avengers should have been commenting that while the Stamford incident was unfortunate, it could have happened to anyone.

[Llava]

And, more than likely, that's what will happen once it gets out that Nitro was hopped up on something.

But Wolverine's the only one who knows so far.

Course, by that point, the line will probably be so firmly drawn in the ground that the New Warriors won't really matter anymore.

[Velorath]

And, more than likely, that's what will happen once it gets out that Nitro was hopped up on something.

But Wolverine's the only one who knows so far.

Course, by that point, the line will probably be so firmly drawn in the ground that the New Warriors won't really matter anymore.

Why is Wolverine the only one that knows so far though?  If Haemish can figure out that there was a major boost in Nitro's powers how come the Avengers, who have a computer system with detailed listings on pretty much every known supervillain, couldn't figure it out right away?  Cap and Iron Man should have known from the start that something was off.

[Llava]

Because most everyone has been focusing on the Registration Act and the New Warriors, very few people are actually interested in going after Nitro.  Sorta like Osama Bin Laden not being a priority.  Wolverine decided to go off on his own and take care of it, and that's how he found out.

I find it plausible to believe that, having seen Nitro do it with a recording, and having to deal with the aftermath and ensuing chaos, most people are too preoccupied to ask "Wait, can he do that?"  Likely, most people who would ask that question would just assume he'd held back before.

[Velorath]

Because most everyone has been focusing on the Registration Act and the New Warriors, very few people are actually interested in going after Nitro.  Sorta like Osama Bin Laden not being a priority.  Wolverine decided to go off on his own and take care of it, and that's how he found out.

I find it plausible to believe that, having seen Nitro do it with a recording, and having to deal with the aftermath and ensuing chaos, most people are too preoccupied to ask "Wait, can he do that?"  Likely, most people who would ask that question would just assume he'd held back before.

Ok, let me put it this way.  The Registration Act came into effect because the New Warriors came across as careless and reckless going after a group of villains knowing they were out of their league against the villains.  Now not only did the New Warriors not rush in and attack (they planned to but were spotted first effectively taking the decision out of their hands anyway), but they take out 3 of the villains fairly quickly.  Had Nitro's power level remained consistant they could have taken him out with no problem as well.  This wasn't a group of heroes that got careless and took on someone too powerful for them, this is a group that was winning the fight with ease until they found out the hard way that Nitro was a lot more powerful than before.  The same thing would have happened to the Avengers and yet in the aftermath of the event Cap himself is saying that Speedball should have called the Avengers because the New Warriors were obviously outmatched.

That's the problem I have.  Nitro is known through the MU as a c-list villain.  His only claim to fame is to indirectly causing Captain Marvel's cancer.  If the New Warriors had to call for backup for every villain at that level, their series would have consisted of them whipping out their cell phones to call the Avengers any time they faced something more threatening than a common criminal.  Instead of wondering why the fuck Speedball didn't call them, Iron Man and Cap should have been wondering when the hell Nitro could devastate several blocks like that.  The public should be worrying about a supervillian who has become the equivalent of a suicide bomber without the suicide.  I realize that there's a secret agenda in here and that the press and public are being manipulated.  Fucking Cap at least should have known better though and set the record straight rather than joining in the blame game.

edit:  For the record though so I don't come across like I'm trying to pick it apart and find things to hate, none of this really bothers me too much.  The main purpose of the whole sequence was just to quickly set things up to get the story to the Registration Act.  If it wasn't this it would have been something else.  Personally I would have liked to have seen more leading up to the Act in months prior to Civil War #1 (introduce the Registration Act and have it gain popularity among the public as more and more shit goes wrong rather than have one incident and have it pushed through seemeingly overnight which seems kinda quick for the government).

[HaemishM]

Yeah, what Velorath said. Nitro's power being off either wasn't taken seriously by the heroes (which it should have been, meaning the characters were written to be dumber than they are - i.e. bad writing) or was just used as an excuse by the writers and when they got called on it, had to invent something else, i.e. something behind the whole deal. Frankly, if it turns out to be just another villain plot, I'll be highly disappointed. Civil War has the chance to change the MU permanently (even though I really don't agree with the change). Having a big bad supervillain behind it, like say the people from Shield that have been behind the escape of the villains on the Raft in New Avengers #1, is pretty transparent. I just get the feeling that most of the changes done in the book are going to be undone in the near future.

[Simond]

*cough*Scarlet Witch back from wherever she went*cough*
She's a deus ex machina waiting to happen.

[HaemishM]

Joe Q. has said that the Scarlet Witch won't be fixing the changes in Civil War. But I wouldn't put it past him.