Civil War

[HaemishM]

Let's hope it's Donald Blake instead then :p

No, he apparently just picked up Thor's hammer in Fantastic Four.

[Velorath]

Let's hope it's Donald Blake instead then :p

No, he apparently just picked up Thor's hammer in Fantastic Four.

I read the first couple issues of the whole Thor's Hammer thing in FF.  Didn't much care for it, but then I pretty much haven't liked any of JMS's work after Rising Stars and Midnight Nation (with the exception of the first few issues of Supreme Power until the story dragged on and never went anywhere).

[stray]

Unashamedly torrented about 20 issues of this (beginning with the Spider-Man tie-in).

Decided to get House of M as well...Which is about 50 something issues that I most likely won't read.

[edit] Got around to the "Planet Hulk" series. Not sure what it has to do with Civil War yet, but it rocks! I think I'll pay for these at least.

[stray]

Geez, that She Hulk courtroom stuff was bad. Marvel could have used Harvey Birdman and I would have taken it more seriously.

[Xerapis]

Hmmmm

I haven't read comics much lately.

Well, I did order the whole Age of Apocalypse graphic novel set.  They fucked up the order of things.

There, I stayed on the general theme.

Postcount ++

I AM INVINCIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

[stray]

Finished up what little of Civil War I had. I won't be reading any further. It's crap.

[edit]

And again, I say: Planet Hulk rocks.

[Velorath]

Geez, that She Hulk courtroom stuff was bad. Marvel could have used Harvey Birdman and I would have taken it more seriously.

Was it a Civil War tie-in issue of She-Hulk?  Don't know if Dan Slott is writing the tie-in issues (I assume he is), but his She-Hulk series is usually played for laughs (Slott mind you got his start at Marvel doing their Ren & Stimpy book which I've still got several issues of around here somewhere).  It's probably not the best series to tie into what's supposed to be a serious event, but with his Thing series recently canceled I can see Slott doing this as an attempt to bring in some more readers to She-Hulk which hasn't had the greatest sales numbers either.  If he'd just do some more GLA minis I'd be happy.

[Llava]

Nicieza usually writes for laughs, too, but Cable & Deadpool is about to have its Civil War crossover with him at the head.

<shrug>

That's a pretty decent book, it's a shame its sales aren't higher.  Where else can you find a merc who scrawls "THIS END TOWARDS OTHER GUY" on the barrel of his gun?

[Velorath]

Nicieza has always been pretty honest about participating in crossovers to get the numbers up on his books.  He does the same thing with Thunderbolts.  Cable & Deadpool has a serious element to it at least that makes it possible to work as a serious Civil War tie-in.  Slott's She-Hulk though might not be on Nextwave's level, but it still doesn't take the Marvel Universe particularly seriously.  I'll have to check out the Civil War She-Hulk stuff to see how it reads, but my point to Stray was that if it was that hard to take seriously, that might have been the intent as most of Slott's work isn't very serious.  And of course let me once again plug his GLA mini which I would very much recommend picking up in TPB as it was one of my favorite stories written last year.

[stray]

The She-Hulk in question was #8.

Another problem that contributed to me not getting into it was the (I'm guessing?) House of M backstory it was placed in. Something to do with She-Hulk having a spell placed on her by the Scarlet Witch (which caused people to not notice that She-Hulk was Jen and Jen was She-Hulk......Or something like that).

Also, she was married to John Jameson, who in turn, is Capt. America's secret best friend and top pilot for SHIELD.

That shit is just stupid. It's bad enough that there's a "She-Hulk" in the first place.


The part that I guess was comical (except it didn't seem very comical) was when She-Hulk decided to represent some of the remaining New Warriors in a defamation case. It was ridiculous.


I read one of the Thunderbolts issues as well. I liked it, but it was a little confusing. It seemed like I was missing a huge chunk of the storyarc.

[Velorath]

John Jameson has been friends with Cap for a while now.  He was Cap's pilot back during Gruenwald's Cap run I think.  Can't speak to the rest of it as I've only infrequently read Slott's She-Hulk, due to basically the same reason I didn't keep up with this Thing series.  I liked Slott's writing but had zero interest in the title characters.

Thunderbolts can be pretty complicated if you haven't been reading the whole time.  Fabian likes to throw in tons of characters and sub-plots (unlike his 90's X-men stuff though, all the sub-plots are taken to conclusion at some point).  It makes sense in a book where you're trying to rehabilitate career criminals though as it has to be a long ongoing process.  I also haven't like the current Thunderbolts series as much as the last one.

[stray]

John Jameson has been friends with Cap for a while now.

I admit, I don't really keep up. It's just that that kind of stuff rubs me the wrong way. Kind of like Spider-Man's villains -- It's like everyone in Peter Parker's life who isn't Aunt May or MJ is a villain by night (Connors, Brock, Oswald, Octavian, err.....John Jameson). You would think that Marvel's Universe is a very, very small world for all these people to know each other.

But like I said, the idea of She-Hulk is lame to begin with. I shouldn't expect much. She's already like Bruce Banner's cousin or something, right? AND she's got Hulk powers too? But of course she's married to John Jameson! How could it be otherwise?

I wonder where Kevin Bacon fits in all of this.

[HaemishM]

I've always liked She-Hulk as a character, and have to admit to being turned off to Slott's silly interpretation of her. The Scarlet Witch putting that spell on She-Hulk predates House of M and Avengers Disassembled by at least a year or two. I think it happened back when She-Hulk went on a rampage. I like the She-Hulk that was in Fantastic Four and Avengers. The satirical law agency dealing with super-hero stuff has just left me cold.

She-Hulk's origin has about as much logic in it as the Hulk's. She gets hit by a car, needs a blood transfusion which she gets from her cousin Bruce. The gamma radiation in him inflicts the Hulk curse on her. But at least she's mostly sane and cognizant when she's Hulked out.

[Velorath]

Back to the topic at hand though, Civil War is crap as is just about anything at Marvel developed by the hive mind there.  They spend more time thinking up crazy ideas than they do actually writing the stories to tell around those ideas.  If you read any Bendis/Quesada interview about House of M before the book came out, you already knew 99% of the story.  The same is starting to look true with Civil War because it's almost all filler material wrapped around the basic story idea that Marvel has been spouting in interviews for the past several months.  I'm much happier when people just shut up and tell a story without trying to sell me on it in advance, even if I don't like it.  I wouldn't have a fraction of the distate for House of M, New Avengers, Civil War, etc..., if people from Mavel hadn't spent so much time patting themselves on the back for thier epic storytelling.

I get that it's business and they have to promote their big events.  I even understand that most of these guys love comics, and love what they do, and are enthusiastic about their work.  Just please, for the love of God, they just need to shut the fuck up sometimes.  Or at the very least, tell me more about Brian K. Vaughn's upcoming Dr. Strange book.  The poor guy had to post a teaser image up on his myspace page to get publicity despite Quesada doing a weekly Q&A session every Friday on Newsarama (to be fair though, Quesada does often cover a wide range of topics).

[stray]

Yeah, I didn't realize what you guys were always harping on about Marvel until I gave some of the Ultimate stuff a chance a while back. Civil War turns me off in the same way.

I think it's all Bendis.

His name keeps popping up around most of the shit I don't like at least.


Still surprised by Planet Hulk though (to go off topic once again  ). The writer is Greg Pak. Who, upon doing some research, looks to be just some indie director/actor of pseudo manga robot movies....Or something. No comic experience apparently. Whatever. Good enough for me.

Another good thing about Hulk right now is that he's about as far removed from Civil War as can be. He might be the only mainstream character who is.

Anyways, it's good sci fi. Not necessarily good "comic book" material maybe. If you're at all a Surfer fan though, and into a lot of the otherworldly themes that touches upon, then you'd probably like this.

[Velorath]

I read the first part of Planet Hulk.  It was ok stuff.  Didn't really feel like a Hulk story, but then Hulk has hung out in the Microverse and worked in Vegas as Mr. Fixit so I guess maybe there really isn't any sort of "real" Hulk story.  Anyhow I know that Planet Hulk is something like 12 issues long and seemed to me the kind of thing that would read better all at once, so I'm holding off on reading the rest until it's finished.

And yes Bendis is a big problem, although sometimes I understand where he's coming from.  He's an indy comic writer who has been given free reign over the Marvel Universe with seemingly little editorial oversight, he's constantly being told by the guys in charge how great his stuff is, and Ultimate Spider-man, New Avengers, and House of M have like it or not been some of Marvel's biggest sellers.  A lot of us here may love Nextwave but New Avengers consistantly sells around 5-6X as many copies as Nextwave goes.  He does a lot of stupid shit and gets caught up in his own hype far too often.

Edit:  Mind you I'm probably a bit more forgiving than Haemish as I still enjoy several Marvel books like Thunderbolts, Runaways, Captain America, Brubaker's run of Daredevil (although killing off Foggy Nelson AND announcing it in the solicits 3 months in advance hurt my opinion of it quite a bit, but for some reason I can't help but think Foggy is still alive), the Ares mini that just wrapped up, the occasional issue of Exiles, Astonishing X-men (even if it hasn't lived up to its opening arc), Nextwave of course, and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting.

[Azazel]

I started reading this thread, thinking about possibly torrenting a few issues to see what's happening in Marvel-land all these years later. Then I started skimming, and now I'm just glad that I did go through this thread, because it's saved me the time and effort of looking at any of that marvel-branded superhero tripe again for another 10 or so years.

[HaemishM]

Edit:  Mind you I'm probably a bit more forgiving than Haemish as I still enjoy several Marvel books like Thunderbolts, Runaways, Captain America, Brubaker's run of Daredevil (although killing off Foggy Nelson AND announcing it in the solicits 3 months in advance hurt my opinion of it quite a bit, but for some reason I can't help but think Foggy is still alive), the Ares mini that just wrapped up, the occasional issue of Exiles, Astonishing X-men (even if it hasn't lived up to its opening arc), Nextwave of course, and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting.

The funny thing is, I have those books (Thunderbolts and Runaways) collected, I just haven't gotten time to read them yet. Captain America is decent, though I'm still not sure I like the more realistic take on the character. The Brubaker DD stuff has been decent, except that it originates from the same clusterfuck story that Bendis left. The whole Matt Murdock in prison thing just isn't working for me. I had no problem with them killing Foggy (and I'm sure he's dead dead deader dead), I just hated the way they did it.

Daredevil is being written as if it was supposed to have an ending, which would be fine, but you know that it's selling well enough to not be cancelled, so you know it won't end. That means the writer is going to have to do some serious narrative gymnastics to get the story back to an equilibirum that allows for monthly continuity.

[Llava]

I don't remember if some of this stuff has been discussed openly or not so I'll just say SPOILERZ anyways:

Well, I'll be the voice of dissent, again.

I like Civil War.

Mind you, I haven't been following comics for a long time.  I just started picking it back up and for the first time in my entire life I have monthly books.

I'm also not your standard comic fan.  People judge the art a lot in books, but for me, as long as it's not bad to the point of distraction, I'm okay with it.  (For bad to the point of distraction see the first couple issues in Batman: Cataclysm)

I haven't been following every Marvel book.  The continuity error in Iron Man, for instance, I'd have never heard about.  I do believe that Iron Man switching sides is intentional, however, as he's being extremely manipulative about the whole thing.  I don't know if that's in character for him, I never liked Iron man so I don't know him all that well.  Parker revealing his identity to the world made sense as it was done.  Peter's problem is, and always has been, that he's a bit naive and easily manipulated.  He's also extremely idealistic.  I think he's going to change sides later.

I like the political parallels.  I especially like the scenes in Front Line comparing events in the MU to real world history events (Iron Man to Caeser, and the registration with the Japanese Internment Camps).

I like Mark Millar a lot as a writer and think he's doing well with the main book.  I've liked all of the crossover stuff so far except the Thunderbolts one largely because there are SO many characters and I don't know who a damn one of them is.  The Fantastic Four crossover was especially good.  I'm no fan of Bendis, but I liked the New Avengers crossover.  That's probably because I'm reading it as part of the Civil War story, not as part of the New Avengers story.  I'm not concerned about where the book is going after that, because I won't be picking up anything that doesn't have that Civil War bar on it.  I don't really give a shit about the New Avengers, because I think it's a dumb idea.  I don't think the issue was "nothing", because it's interesting to see how everyone landed on the sides they did.  The conversation with Pym was well written.  Amazingly enough, Bendis didn't try to show off how clever he is.

I do think the story would have been better without the Decimation having taken place.

A friend of mine who was totally anti-Marvel has been completely turned around by this event, and soured on his previous golden child DC because of the way Infinite Crisis was handled.  He's an intelligent guy with usually well-reasoned points, and I'm with him on this one.  I'm liking this event far more than Infinite Crisis.  It's closer to home.  DC tends to write stories about Good VS Evil (not always, but often) and Marvel (of late anyways) tends to write more political stories involving far more gray.

One thing that did and will continue to bother me about Infinite Crisis is the society of super villains.  See, most people who are like that wouldn't outright sign up with a group identifying themselves as evil.  Most people don't consider themselves evil.  A guy like Captain Nazi, for instance, who seems to identify himself as evil isn't really portraying the Nazi belief- because they thought they were right.

But I'm straying.

Point is, I don't know what reasoning you're all using.  All I see when I come here is "This is shit" or "It sucks" with very little to back that up.  You're all starting to post like Ironwood.  Let's face it, the guy's funny but that's not exactly constructive.  Reading these posts it sounds to me like you guys are trying really hard not to like this and aren't really sure why.

So what is it?  Aside from continuity which, let's face it, isn't that big a fucking deal (given that you all so greatly enjoyed a recent DC event that may as well have been titled "Our continuity is fucked, let's rewrite it again!") what exactly is wrong with this event?

I've found it believable for the world it's in, I've found most characters' actions reasonable, and the story carries weight because it's a very obvious parallel to things going on in our world right now.  Plus it has badasses diving out of windows and onto jets.

The story COULD get all fucked up in the future, but so far I've found the whole thing quite enjoyable.

And fuck all you if you don't.  You're all probably just John Byrne posting under a shitload of different names for the sake of realism.  You know he's crazy enough to do it.

God.  I'm the only guy at this site who isn't John Byrne, aren't I?  Well, me and everyone else who went to E3.  I'm pretty sure they weren't John Byrne.

Bendis is still a cocky jackass, though.

[Raguel]

I started reading this thread, thinking about possibly torrenting a few issues to see what's happening in Marvel-land all these years later. Then I started skimming, and now I'm just glad that I did go through this thread, because it's saved me the time and effort of looking at any of that marvel-branded superhero tripe again for another 10 or so years.

qft.

[HaemishM]

Point is, I don't know what reasoning you're all using.  All I see when I come here is "This is shit" or "It sucks" with very little to back that up.  You're all starting to post like Ironwood.  Let's face it, the guy's funny but that's not exactly constructive.  Reading these posts it sounds to me like you guys are trying really hard not to like this and aren't really sure why.

So what is it?  Aside from continuity which, let's face it, isn't that big a fucking deal (given that you all so greatly enjoyed a recent DC event that may as well have been titled "Our continuity is fucked, let's rewrite it again!") what exactly is wrong with this event?

I used to think that injecting real world events into comics was a good idea. I still think it can be done well, but I think Civil War is just an example of it being done really really badly. The thing about real world events, or even allegorical stories that are meant to be about real world events like most sci-fi, is that if they are too obvious, it becomes preachy. And Civil War is WAY too obvious. It reads like a hodge podge of afterschool specials about the dangers of absolute power and soundbites out of the press hype Marvel's been using on the book. It takes itself way too seriously, IMO.

Bendis's dialogue sounds fine the first 3 or 4 times I read it. In Jinx, AKA: Goldfish and Torso, it worked because it fit the kind of indy film noir Pulp Fictiony style of the story. It even works in Daredevil at first. But after the 50th or 60th issue, it loses all its lustre. It becomes stale. What makes it even worse is when it's used with characters that would never talk like that, such as Captain America or Iron Man. This part may just be a longtime geek talking, but really his characterizations of these characters is just plain NOT RIGHT. It flies in the face of 40 years of narrative history. That's probably why people new to the comics don't mind it, but with comics, you have to treat these characters as BRANDS as much as your characters. It's been a rare writer that can make such a change to a character and have it work. With Spider-Man, Bendis is spot on (other than the revealing his identity thing) and he's been pretty close on Daredevil. But most of his other characters don't act like they have in the past and it feels forced.

Civil War the main series is certainly better because it lacks the Bendis dialogue. But the premise doesn't work for me. It makes assumptions about charcters that just aren't there, Iron Man and Spider-Man being the worst examples of mischaracterization. It doesn't even get the powers right for people like Nitro or Speedball or Namorita. Again, this may be a case of geek pride, but if you are going to write an event of such magnitude, you need to pay MORE attention to continuity than ever, not less. The Iron Man continuity fuckup is just salt in the wound.

[Llava]

I'd agree about the preachy thing, but I think they've done a pretty decent job of not drawing a line of who's right and who's wrong.

Both Iron Man and Captain America are pretty much acting like dicks about it.  Meanwhile you've got people like Spider-Man and Reed Richards back up Iron Man's side and staying pretty reasonable about it, but Sue Storm is making a lot of good points against.

If they just flat out portrayed the act as evil, I could agree about the preachy thing.  As it is, I really believe all the involved characters are well-meaning, and I'm still on the fence about who's really /right/.

I agree 100% about Bendis.  He writes Spider-Man exactly how Spider-Man should be written.  But people in SHIELD don't talk like that.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean about them getting Nitro/Speedball/Namorita's powers wrong.  Speedball's power is to create a frictionless force field around himself, Nitro's power is to exlode and reform, and Namorita's powers are flight, strength, and other generic Namor-like crap.  What was misportrayed?

[Hoax]

I started reading this thread, thinking about possibly torrenting a few issues to see what's happening in Marvel-land all these years later. Then I started skimming, and now I'm just glad that I did go through this thread, because it's saved me the time and effort of looking at any of that marvel-branded superhero tripe again for another 10 or so years.

qft.

agree+1

All I had to hear was Iron Man back in stupid team, overall plotlines still make no sense or do not exist.  While the characters are in so many books at once that things dont add up and one has to wonder how the hell they have time for it all.  Same as it ever was.  Comic books were fun when I was a kid and didn't analyze the things that entertained me.  Now I fear if I picked any up I would end up like Haemish, spending a ton of money on things that I end up expressing loathing for if anyone asks me about them in a public or intellectual setting.

That is what my anime (and MMO I suppose) habit is for and I dont pay for any of the stuff that sucks because I check out every show before purchasing dvd's.  Plus I've moved on from men in spandex to giant robots and I think I'm a better person for it.

[Velorath]

Point is, I don't know what reasoning you're all using.  All I see when I come here is "This is shit" or "It sucks" with very little to back that up.  You're all starting to post like Ironwood.  Let's face it, the guy's funny but that's not exactly constructive.  Reading these posts it sounds to me like you guys are trying really hard not to like this and aren't really sure why.

I expressed my reasons for disliking Civil War both here (regarding the 2nd issue on the first page of this topic), and in regards to the Illuminati prelude over in the New Avengers thread.  I went so far as to say that I thought the basic story idea for Civil War is an interesting one and something I wouldn't mind reading if it didn't take place in the Marvel Universe where Millar or whoever could create their own characters that would fit the parts they're playing.  As it stands though, I don't see the point of writing stories for Marvel, using Marvel characters if you don't plan on actually having them acting in character and I don't see the point of doing big cross-overs if you can't keep continutiy straight between the titles.  A few months ago, Cap was completely against the idea of the Young Avengers, not wanting teenagers out there risking their lives.  Now he's recruiting them as part of his undergound movement against U.S. law.   Really, this just isn't how Cap does stuff.

Now I'll admit, part of the reason I might have liked Infinite Crisis so much is because I don't know a lot of the details in DC continuity.  There could very well have been errors made, and some of the characters might not have been written properly.  The characters I do know were protrayed fairly well though, and I don't remember to many continuity glitches between the books involved.  DC also doesn't have the habit of blowing most of the story months before it comes out.

I've expressed numerous times my love for various Marvel books.  I don't have any vendetta against them or anything.  I haven't been fond of anything written by the grouping of Quesada, Bendis, JMS, and Millar, because they have these big ideas but can't be bothered to get the details right.  Infite Crisis by all accounts took a hell of a lot of time to plot and get everything straight.  At Marvel it seems like they can't even be bothered to go down the hall to find out if Iron Man is for or against the Registration Act this week.

I'd agree about the preachy thing, but I think they've done a pretty decent job of not drawing a line of who's right and who's wrong.[/url]

Part of the problem to me is that the pro-regristration trio of Iron Man, Reed Richards, and Henry Pym are all acting like dicks, and the anti-registration side (in the issues and tie-ins I've read anyway) haven't had any real points against it.  Cap makes some points about freedom and all that, but since when were people supposed to be free to anonymously take the law into their own hands on a regular basis?  The anti-registration side doesn't really have a case, because realistically having hundreds of masked superheroes running around as vigilanties probably isn't the greatest idea.  It's the kind of thing we generally have to look past when we read superhero books lest we wonder why anyone in their right mind in the MU would ever move to New York City in the first place.

[Azazel]

That is what my anime (and MMO I suppose) habit is for and I dont pay for any of the stuff that sucks because I check out every show before purchasing dvd's.  Plus I've moved on from men in spandex to giant robots and I think I'm a better person for it.

I started replying to this but decided to make a new thread, since my tangent has nothing to do with the Civil War storyline.

[HaemishM]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean about them getting Nitro/Speedball/Namorita's powers wrong.  Speedball's power is to create a frictionless force field around himself, Nitro's power is to exlode and reform, and Namorita's powers are flight, strength, and other generic Namor-like crap.  What was misportrayed?

Nitro has never been that powerful. Period. He suddenly went from small but devestating explosions to taking out city blocks.

Speedball's power is what you said, but he's taken bigger blows than Nitro's and come out fine. Many writers have hypothesized that he just couldn't be hurt. If I remember right, he's taken shots from Terrax and come out fine, and Terrax packs more punch than Nitro ever did.

Namorita is close to invulnerable, just like Namor. Nitro couldn't just kill her. He might hurt her, but he couldn't kill her. They've essentially taken a second-rate villain and turned him into something he isn't.

[gimpyone]

One can only hope that at the end of the series that the Watcher wakes up and says it was all just a bad dream.

[Llava]

So the real problem with the misportrayal of powers is that they made Nitro's explosion more powerful than it should've been.

Your other power complaints are symptoms of that.

<shrug>

I don't see that as invalidating the entire story.  But on this it's clear I'm just going to have to agree to disagree, because I don't care enough to try to convince you all (and doubt I could if I did care).

Sorry you guys don't like it.  Personally, I'm enjoying the hell out of it and hope it has a lasting effect on the Marvel Universe.

[stray]

and hope it has a lasting effect on the Marvel Universe.

Well, at the very least, I am interested to see how they manage that. Right now, it would seem that the Avengers, as we know them, will never exist again....And that the Spider-Man just lost 90% of what was interesting and comical about him.

[Velorath]

Well, at the very least, I am interested to see how they manage that. Right now, it would seem that the Avengers, as we know them, will never exist again....And that the Spider-Man just lost 90% of what was interesting and comical about him.

The Avengers as we know them haven't existed for a couple years and likely would never exist again as long as Bendis writes them anyway.

[HaemishM]

So the real problem with the misportrayal of powers is that they made Nitro's explosion more powerful than it should've been.

Your other power complaints are symptoms of that.

<shrug>

It's the little things that count. That one little incident is the whole crux of the series, because without the death of all those little schoolchildren, a death that should not have happened had they been internally consistent with the entire history of the universe, the Registration Act would not have been so widely supported. Once the Act got out there, all the big characters start acting in complete opposition to their previous histories as well. In short, no one is acting as history has shown they should. It would work great as an indy book with a completely separate universe, like Rising Stars did. But with these characters, it rings hollow because we already know how they SHOULD be acting, and this isn't it.

And worse, once the series is done, these characters will be painted into a corner, just like Bendis did when he left Daredevil in jail. Spider-Man's outed and his entire life as we've known it should be destroyed, NO ONE in the MU should trust Iron Man with anything, Reed Richards and Henry Pym have become the MU's version of Nazi scientists, and yes, the whole universe should be changed. If they can stay consistent with that for 5 years, then it MIGHT be worthwhile. But I just get the feeling they CAN'T stay consistent beyond this series, because it is such a huge change for all involved. It's an Age of Apocalypse type of story only it has to be worked around in all the regular books.

Again, comic heroes in established universes are brands, and have to be treated as such. This is akin to a complete corporate makeover, more severe than the Infinite Crisis/One Year Later type of change. Any variance in consistency is just going to make all the other things that fall out of it worse.

[stray]

Again, comic heroes in established universes are brands, and have to be treated as such.

Even more to the point, comics are folklore, and these are archetypes. They're not merely fiction like you would find in novels -- They're myths. Each character can evolve and grow to a point, but they all have a general tagline quality that can not and should not change. If you write stories that shake things up too much, all it does is castrate the characters in the longterm (but like I said, I'm sorta interested to see how Marvel pulls themselves out of that problem).

[Llava]

If you write stories that shake things up too much, all it does is castrate the characters in the longterm (but like I said, I'm sorta interested to see how Marvel pulls themselves out of that problem).

They could always have the antimatter universe attack and rewrite reality.

[HaemishM]

If you write stories that shake things up too much, all it does is castrate the characters in the longterm (but like I said, I'm sorta interested to see how Marvel pulls themselves out of that problem).

They could always have the antimatter universe attack and rewrite reality.

I'd buy that before I buy this.

[Lantyssa]

Or the Scarlett Witch gains some 'sanity' and plays with the universe again...