SOE to Publish Vanguard

[shiznitz]

While that screenshot is probably how most people with normal machines will see the game, it is far worse than the best eye candy the game can offer.

[Miasma]

Why does a brand new game with a twenty or thirty gig install look this shitty?

While that screenshot is probably how most people with normal machines will see the game, it is far worse than the best eye candy the game can offer.

I don't know about that, they have a rule that all screenshots must be taken at 1600x1200 resolution with all settings on high.  Any official screenshots like that are as good as they will be.  The game really does look pretty bad.

[Nija]

Only thing missing from that sshot is "FPS 8" in yellow text in one of the corners.

[Soln]

I like how the FoH people are basically just flaming Brad and the game now.  He posts a new batch of screenshots and the very next post is something like "I think LOL about sums those up."  Speaking of screenshots...

Why does a brand new game with a twenty or thirty gig install look this shitty?

no shadows, no specular lighting, poor textures, blocky models/geography.  Whatever.

[Yoru]

Take a look at the yucca trees in the background. I'd guess that each spike on that tree is a triangle. They seem to have tried the "realism/quality by throwing polys at it" approach to graphics. It tends to lead to things looking like bad Poser models and adds a lot of space. The textures look detailed, it's just that the details are ugly.

Also, their terrain engine just blows chunks.

[Sky]

Blurry amorphous blob land ftw! Those trees are done like normal trees, you can see them closer in some other shots, change the screenshot # in the url.

http://www.bradmcquaid.com/Mid/MidLevelBattle007.jpg

[Miasma]

Also, their terrain engine just blows chunks.

That's actually a really good pun because they call their zones chunks.  There is no "zoning" as such but you do cross chunk lines, and it does blow.

[Morat20]

Take a look at the yucca trees in the background. I'd guess that each spike on that tree is a triangle. They seem to have tried the "realism/quality by throwing polys at it" approach to graphics. It tends to lead to things looking like bad Poser models and adds a lot of space. The textures look detailed, it's just that the details are ugly.

Also, their terrain engine just blows chunks.

One guy's foot is actually under the ground. It's possible to occasionally clip like that in WoW, but if that's common -- it's not something I'm willing to tolerate anymore. I put up with it just fine in previous games, but WoW has spoiled me. I'm pretty sure I don't recall seeing that thing in CoX either.

[stray]

This in no way is meant to reflect my opinion on the game, but.....


I bet it doesn't look too bad within the game itself. Just about everything looks like shit when it comes to screenshots. Any current game you guys are playing, from Half Life 2 to CoH, look like shit in screenshots.

[Chenghiz]

This in no way is meant to reflect my opinion on the game, but.....


I bet it doesn't look too bad within the game itself. Just about everything looks like shit when it comes to screenshots. Any current game you guys are playing, from Half Life 2 to CoH, look like shit in screenshots.

I dunno, I think games tend to look better in screenshots than they do in action. Wasn't it earlier in this thread where someone said that games always look better in screens than in video?

[Sky]

Games rarely look better in screens, and in some technical ways you're right, Stray. But compare the weakness of:

http://www.bradmcquaid.com/Mid/MidLevelBattle012.jpg

to the awesomeness of:

http://cerberus.gamershell.com/screenshots/1816/214107_full.jpg
http://cerberus.gamershell.com/screenshots/1816/214108_full.jpg

It's not just a graphic thing, the Vanguard gameplay looks just like crappy old EQ, which I guess some people want.

[Nebu]

It's not just a graphic thing, the Vanguard gameplay looks just like crappy old EQ, which I guess some people want.

I think that most of the Vanguard playerbase is more interested in item whoring and spreadsheet perfection than graphic glitz and exciting gameplay.  At least I'm guessing that is what Brad is banking on.

[stray]

Games rarely look better in screens, and in some technical ways you're right, Stray. But compare the weakness of:

http://www.bradmcquaid.com/Mid/MidLevelBattle012.jpg

to the awesomeness of:

http://cerberus.gamershell.com/screenshots/1816/214107_full.jpg
http://cerberus.gamershell.com/screenshots/1816/214108_full.jpg

It's not just a graphic thing, the Vanguard gameplay looks just like crappy old EQ, which I guess some people want.

Yeah, OK, you're right.

One big thing in CoH's favor is it's myriad spell effects. They go a long way in making a game look attractive. Hell, even my Shadowbane Bard (who had pretty buffs running just about as much as a CoH character did) could make SB look good at times.

I wouldn't disagree that those screens display a superior form of combat gameplay as well (even if they're both essentially Diku). So you're right in that respect too.

[Rhonstet]

Rare loot can be fun and not rare. Put lots and lots of rares in the loot tables but give the items timers so no one keeps them forever. Make every rare LORE with every other rare.

Or it could be as simple as making rare loot spawn with random names.  Even if 'Sword of the Heavens' is identical to 'Blade of Paradise', part of the appeal of rares is that they actually feel sort of rare.

[Yoru]

Blurry amorphous blob land ftw! Those trees are done like normal trees, you can see them closer in some other shots, change the screenshot # in the url.

http://www.bradmcquaid.com/Mid/MidLevelBattle007.jpg

Okay, then I have no idea what they blew 30GB on if it's not elf boobies and VPL on catgirl shorts.

[Yegolev]

The space is mostly used on bodies with boobs but also skull heads.  Oh wait, interchangeable heads on stock bodies save space.  Nevermind.

[Venkman]

The plight of attempted realism. Eventually people will realized "real" looks crappy and just start going with style.

One simple thing games could do is make the spawn areas much much larger. Like an entire zone in size. That way you really can't try to camp one. (Unless you are a crazy glutton for punishment)

A great way to inspire huge protest :) The problem is that these games all devolve into a level of predictability, because people want to know that the time they plan to invest in a sittng has a reasonable chance of resulting in some reward.

However, I think your idea can work if the players are provided enough clues. I'm thinking here of the old UO system that would spawn pirate camps based on people who read News postings at some buildings (like Empath Abbey in Yew... God, and I didn't even need to look that up...). You go to the News post, you scan for the obviously-game-generated posts, you are told Pirates/Brigands/whatever have taken-hostage/stolen/gathered somewhere in some cardinal direction. The text gave clues about how far away too. So you go that way, the camp spawns and you go at it.

I believe this system was the inspiration for SWG's Mission Terminals too.

Now imagine that for boss mob encounters. Contextual quest chat could update to a new mob location and trigger when you get there. Some games do this already, on a case by case basis. It just isn't game wide, therefore not expected, therefore a surprise that can piss players off. If the whole game did that though consistently, then players would be trained early on and maybe even eventually like it.

Someday.

[Yegolev]

That's a good idea.  Add to it a generated boss that drops a few bits of generated equipment, the sort you won't see again because the spawn doesn't, well, spawn.  More like an event.  When you get to the boss mob location as described by Darniaq, maybe he could be a unique and would drop unique equipment.  I don't mean unique like Diablo 2, I mean there is only one of them ever.  One roaming undead gnoll boss, ever.  One Ancient Gnoll Hammer, ever.  I blame the rampant entitlement mentality, which causes people to demand ridiculous things like class balance, for the lack of such systems.  Or lazy designers.

These encounters would, of course, be like the other in-game events which I invariably missed, but I blame having more than 150 people in a world (another favorite rant of mine).

[caladein]

The plight of attempted realism. Eventually people will realized "real" looks crappy and just start going with style.

Especially considering that's what every other art form has done once it reached "life-like realism", they ditched it. Just another one of those memos they missed I guess.

[Falconeer]

I have this weird idea. It struck me while I was reading the usual daily digest of Brad's posting at FoH, and the usual VG bashing he gets for it.
I never saw, before this whole Vanguard thing, the dev (lead) of a mmorpg putting his own face on public display for bashing and fighting so hard for his product. This says a lot, of course: for example that Brad is a very strange and peculiar guy, and I think we all agree on this (and "strange" is just cause I can't or don't want to find a better word).
But this leads me to dare think that he will have to thank the haters and that all the uberbashing Vanguard endured will be VERY beneficial in the end. The negativity about VG in the last 12 months grew so big, so huge, that for the first time in mmorpg history a game will come out way better than it was supposed to be.

How is that?

Because he DOESN'T WANT to fail, he is so in love with his game and so passionate (let's say fanatical... and the world "vision" comes to mind) about proving the whole world how good they are and how wrong the slammers were that I am pretty sure he is writing down every single harsh comment he receives and trying to (*trying to*) fix those aspects before the game comes out.

Of course there's no way you can do that, even because what's a no-buying-feature for someone is a big-winner-feature for someone else. But looking at some of the stuff they revamped in the last year (too often we witnessed "revamps" after a game was live), and looking at all the fixes they are applying to animations for example, and knowing that all those stuff is coming directly from the harsh comment they received so far, I am starting to believe that, from a diku point of view, Vanguard *could be* an enjoyable game, and for that Brad will have to thank NOT the constructive critics (that usually pass unheard during the pre-launch phase of MMORPGs) but well known VG-haters of the like of Neric and Utnayan.

We'll see...

EDIT: to prove my theory, here's an extract from one among many posts Brad scores at FoH. I just stumbled on this, after posting the above stuff.  It's not liked I called it, but much more like this emerges between the lines very often...

Brad McQuaid says:
Remember the 'too brown' and 'everything looks the same' criticisms? Well, at the time those of you who said so we're right because of they way we approach production. We layer things and build on a foundation. I think you'll see from these shots a LOT of improvement in terms of variety and that our world is going to be a blast to explore:

[...]

In fact, we were rightfully criticized early on with comments like 'too brown' or 'the mini-dungeons look too much the same', etc. Well, this has been addressed and we're only getting better. By launch the world will be absolutely incredible, [...]

.


He could get lot of free bashing here, and because of that a way better game.
Wonder how come Brad snobs the F13...

[Wolf]

I got it! Vanguard will be released on Blu-Ray!!11!

[Arrrgh]

They even managed to screw up unicorns. In the new trailer on gametrailers.com the unicorn mount has a horn that constantly points straight up. It looks like a horse with a wee flagpole on it's head.

[Engels]

At the risk of sounding like a Brad groupie, I don't think that having a vision is bad. In fact, I think its necessary for any significant project, from writing a book to designing a game. I think that's all Brad meant when he originally used the term. It got turned into a truncheon to beat him with, but the concept of having a sense of the overall goal is vital to any serious creative process. Without a vision, MMOs are simply going to be refabrications of WoW, and I for one will switch hobbies.

Now, wether Brad can get his game to actually reflect his ideal vision is another matter entirely.

[WayAbvPar]

They even managed to screw up unicorns. In the new trailer on gametrailers.com the unicorn mount has a horn that constantly points straight up. It looks like a horse with a wee flagpole on it's head.

That sounds dangerous. What if the unicorn comes to a sudden stop?

[Falconeer]

Without a vision, MMOs are simply going to be refabrications of WoW,

Which is a refabrication of EverQuest, the former Brad's Vision. Interesting :)
Anyway I agree with you and elsewhere I am often referred to as THE Vanguard groupie, while I only think that I still enjoy a bit of diku and I can definitely play for a while the Mother of all the dikus, should Vanguard prove to be that woman.
On the opposite, I won't play a 25 gigabyte large ProgressQuest. This is why I think I'll wait and see, hoping that all the bashing and the hate Brad is getting will help him deliver something good.

[Nija]

They even managed to screw up unicorns. In the new trailer on gametrailers.com the unicorn mount has a horn that constantly points straight up. It looks like a horse with a wee flagpole on it's head.

Unicorn poledancers in Gweneth's Ye Olde Brothel?

PREORDERED!

[Yegolev]

Your Brad quote is a classic "You were right, but we were even more right since you didn't know what we were really up to."

Alternatively "The design is progressing as intended."

Brad hangs out with FoH because they used to love him and he can't get over the breakup.

[HaemishM]

<deluded drivel>

You might have well as said "IT'S IN BETA!" Just because someone has criticized him doesn't mean he'll change it. He's so upfront about the game because he has a rockstar ego, and always has. He's Romero before Daikatana. He's trying to re-prove the Vision which has been disproven years ago.

He could get lot of free bashing here, and because of that a way better game.
Wonder how come Brad snobs the F13...

McQuaid reads f13 regularly. He won't post, and he's declined repeated requests for interviews from me over the years.

[Simond]

The plight of attempted realism. Eventually people will realized "real" looks crappy and just start going with style.

I thought that already happened?

Anyway, if anyone was wondering why the FoH poll had a sudden jump in Yes votes, it's because Brad started a thread about it on the Vanguard forums and all-but-told people to go spam yes votes on it (as the FoH board allows unregistered people to vote in polls). The registered-only results are about 40:40:20 yes/no/wait & see.

[shiznitz]

Brad hangs out with FoH because they used to love him and he can't get over the breakup.

Well if someone sucked your diku daily for 5 years and then suddenly stopped, wouldn't you feel like there was always a good chance to recover the good old days any day now?

[WayAbvPar]

McQuaid reads f13 regularly. He won't post, and he's declined repeated requests for interviews from me over the years.

Did you ever promise to not refer to him as a pigfucker for the whole interview? 

[HaemishM]

I wouldn't have been honest if I did.

[AcidCat]

The plight of attempted realism. Eventually people will realized "real" looks crappy and just start going with style.

This is so true. And style doesn't age. WoW will look cool ten years from now because it's style is timeless and not dependant on cutting edge graphic realism.

Vanguard's player character models are atrocious. I remember looking at screenshots for WoW before release and just thinking how cool it would be to play those characters. Even now, something like Warhammer, I'll look at screens and think - man, those look cool, I'd love to play as one of those dudes. There's character and style. Vanguard's characters look like mannequins dressed up in generic renfair gear. There's not a single character screenshot that made me think "I want to be that dude!"

I got a beta invite two weeks ago and just deleted the email, it wasn't even worth the trouble when the gameworld and characters generate zero excitement.

[stray]

WoW has the style, but the spell effects suck imo. The action is about as boring to look at as any DAoC and Vanguard video as well.

Stylish Graphics with cool spell effects and cool looking actions and movements to boot = Beyond Good and Evil

That's a really pretty 3rd person game using relatively weak technology......But of course, it isn't an MMO.

[Morat20]

The plight of attempted realism. Eventually people will realized "real" looks crappy and just start going with style.

This is so true. And style doesn't age. WoW will look cool ten years from now because it's style is timeless and not dependant on cutting edge graphic realism.

Vanguard's player character models are atrocious. I remember looking at screenshots for WoW before release and just thinking how cool it would be to play those characters. Even now, something like Warhammer, I'll look at screens and think - man, those look cool, I'd love to play as one of those dudes. There's character and style. Vanguard's characters look like mannequins dressed up in generic renfair gear. There's not a single character screenshot that made me think "I want to be that dude!"

I got a beta invite two weeks ago and just deleted the email, it wasn't even worth the trouble when the gameworld and characters generate zero excitement.

EVE has style as well. The ships all have thier unique looks, and even though it's avatar-less, they put a lot of thought into the character portrait creation system. It's a gorgeous game -- mostly because they scaled things so that realism worked.