Player funeral ambushed.

[Rasix]

Is it hard to see us down here from up on that pedestal?

[tazelbain]

LoL, meaningful.
What's meaningful about Lord of Flies PvP?
The nature of the technology and the nature of the business absolutely precludes any game from being meaningful beyond personal taste.
If you want meaningful, spend sometime with your family.

[Threash]

It was better because it was more fun due to its unpredictable ever-changing non-scripted nature.

Its only unpredictable for the one being killed.  The guys who are roaming around killing farmers and questers are always ready.

[El Gallo]

Someone needs a hug 

[Jayce]

angry stereotyping

I only see one angry person in this thread, and it's you.

Well, two if you count Haemish, but that's a perpetual state, and I sort of got used to it.

[WindupAtheist]

[Zetor]

Emphasis mine. Obviously, if a 47 attacks a 60, that 60 is being provoked. In my system, the 47 would then be fair game.

The idea is that the 47s gank questing players, ie. level 40 to 59 and maybe newb 60s (fights they know they can win), they can easily do this with the proper gear. Then when the geared out 60s come to smash their face in, they can't do anything to stop it (the 47s will be smart enough to not attack the anti-PKs)

This thread delivers! BTW, horde ganks just as much as alliance. :<3


-- Z.

[HaemishM]

I cannot believe that in 2006, in a game with both PVE and PVP servers, someone is on a PVP server crying about getting azzraped.  It's like the last nine years didn't happen.

Na, its the assrapers complaining they no one to rape because things like battlegrounds have become popular and they can't find helpless victims.

Thats retarded also.   Specially the ones who claim "world pvp took real skill".  Whatever bud, just because you kicked everyones ass when you where ganking farmers, questers and people running into instances and now you cant cut it in bgs doesnt mean world pvp was better.

So you do realize that the kind of world pvp ganking I'm talking about takes no skill whatsoever, right?

[Threash]

I cannot believe that in 2006, in a game with both PVE and PVP servers, someone is on a PVP server crying about getting azzraped.  It's like the last nine years didn't happen.

Na, its the assrapers complaining they no one to rape because things like battlegrounds have become popular and they can't find helpless victims.

Thats retarded also.   Specially the ones who claim "world pvp took real skill".  Whatever bud, just because you kicked everyones ass when you where ganking farmers, questers and people running into instances and now you cant cut it in bgs doesnt mean world pvp was better.

So you do realize that the kind of world pvp ganking I'm talking about takes no skill whatsoever, right?

Yes thats exactly what im saying... i dont see how that conflicts with my opinion that rolling on a pvp server and complaining about ganking is idiotic.

[HaemishM]

It's called a middle ground.

See, PVE servers are boring to me because people there don't like the "challenge" of fighting against other players. It's rare you can find actual PVP on the WoW PVP servers.

But on PVP servers, there is this contingent that thinks PVP means "I KILL J00 ALL DA TIME ALL DAY BLELARJIILREURLJAJ" and are complete frothing morons. They feel it is their duty and holy obligation to kill anything that moves, whether that thing is the equivalent of a retarded, crippled fetus or not. They prefer the fetus.

In level-based games, it's way too easy to beat on the fetuses like an abortion doctor.

The people like me who actually want a challenge that they may not win, but at least have a chance to, can't tolerate the PVE servers because it encourages being a complete pussy, and can't tolerate the PVP servers because its full of raging douchebags whose primary purpose is to measure their e-peen against helpless fetuses (feti?). There is no middle ground, no server where people can be open to PVP without being susceptible to being roadkill from demigods of douchebaggery fallen to earth to mingle amongst the fetuses.

So I can either be surrounded by sloppy, sandy pussies or used, raging douchebags.

The only way to win is not to play.

[Rasix]

Miyagi: Now, ready?
Daniel: I guess so.
Miyagi: [sighs] Daniel-san, must talk. Man walk on road. Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk down middle, sooner or later, get squished
[makes squish gesture]
Miyagi: just like grape. Same here. You karate do "yes," or karate do "no." You karate do "guess so,"
[makes squish gesture]
Miyagi: just like grape. Understand?
Daniel: Yeah, I understand.
Miyagi: Now, ready?
Daniel: Yeah, I'm ready.

[tazelbain]

Right, and we should allow football players to use handguns on the field so they can go full PvP.

[bhodi]

Are you saying that the penalty for killing a grey would be "you have to go kill two mobs your level"?  That's way too light to deter anyone, at least in a game like WoW.

I disagree. This is powergaming catassers we're talking about. Any small detriment to their grinding up to rank 14 is to be avoided at all costs.

[Threash]

Are you saying that the penalty for killing a grey would be "you have to go kill two mobs your level"?  That's way too light to deter anyone, at least in a game like WoW.

I disagree. This is powergaming catassers we're talking about. Any small detriment to their grinding up to rank 14 is to be avoided at all costs.

People ganking newbs in stv arent grinding for rank.

[bhodi]

People ganking newbs in stv arent grinding for rank.

From what I've seen, a lot of them have gone up the pvp ladder, and ganking newbs all day in STV would drop them back down in a hurry. I'd try this out and see what sort of impact it made before doing stricter measures. I think it might be enough. Every time i've been on the ganking end, it isn't some grunt/sarge doing the killing it's a stone guard/knight. Well, tried to gank me. I was a druid. You just can't gank a druid, not even if you have 15 levels on them.

[Hoax]

Le sigh, so bored today...

Is it hard to see us down here from up on that pedestal?

@Rasix:  Yes, yes it is.

LoL, meaningful.
What's meaningful about Lord of Flies PvP?
The nature of the technology and the nature of the business absolutely precludes any game from being meaningful beyond personal taste.
If you want meaningful, spend sometime with your family.

@tazelbain:  LoL level-based pvp is great?  PvP+ doesn't have to devolve into lord of the flies, hell Face of fucking mankind had areas that were controlled by anti's 90% of the time.  Which is where everyone went to do their shopping and that game was a joke.  I'm sure somebody with more money and skill could do even better.  But your right, player justice can not work because UO was a griefer paradise.

Let us just ignore the fact that in EvE player alliances control huge amounts of space and keep out pirates, unfortunately they also kill anyone who isn't explicitly an ally.  But in the fringes of empire space there are plenty of coalitions of non-pirate corps working to keep their space clear of gatecamps and miner-hunters.

Or how about cities like MoneyTree in SB that was on complete lockdown for thieves and PK's, although they eventually ran out of room on their guard aggro list and the city was destroyed in a huge siege eventually.

You are totally right though, UO's failure will always stand as proof for all time that pvp+ will not work ever and anyone trying to design a system thinking otherwise is an idiot.

It was better because it was more fun due to its unpredictable ever-changing non-scripted nature.

Its only unpredictable for the one being killed. The guys who are roaming around killing farmers and questers are always ready.

@Threash:
I'd like to now how it was predictable when my small guild would bring 15-20 people to the horde town in Arathi Highlands and effectively lock it down.  Then various alliance guilds would join us while major horde pvp guilds would arrive to help their lower members.  Due to the skill imbalance in horde favor on Archimonde at launch in terms of skill/organization and overall number of pvp'ers we often ended up being driven back to that hole in the ground that the alliance call a town and having to defend from there untill everyone decided it was time to go back to leveling.

But whatever as usual my experiences to the contrary prove nothing and mean nothing, because some idiots on a pvp server having a funeral in a contested area got wtfpwn'd or whatever the hell the whine of the week is.

angry stereotyping

I only see one angry person in this thread, and it's you.

Well, two if you count Haemish, but that's a perpetual state, and I sort of got used to it.

@Jayce:  Heh, I'm hardly angry, dissapointed would be the proper word.  Although having to insert all those quotes did piss me off a little bit.

[tazelbain]

> You are totally right though, UO's failure will always stand as proof for all time that pvp+ will not work ever and anyone trying to design a system thinking otherwise is an idiot.

I know you are green-texting this, but it is correct.  Open pvp will always degenerate to Lord of Flies.  Maybe with some elaborate, ham-fisted sticks and carrots you could make it work.  But it wouldn't be open pvp and still wouldn't be meaningful. 

> LoL level-based pvp is great?
Depends on the disparity of the levels.  Lately, I have been concerned about equipment disparity since max level is getting easier.

[Hoax]

Ok so let me see here, I give 3 examples from 3 different games only one of which was even making an effort to stop gankers (FoM) of how players are protecting game areas through their own willpower and devices in open pvp games.  In fact all 3 of the examples show meaningful pvp (people fighting to keep space safe in EvE, people working for the cops/military in FoM -a factional choice- doing their jobs and players in SB keeping the city safe so that they can make tons of money from the vendors/trainers).

You counter with, yes UO proves that it will never work.

Good job, you sure showed me there buddy.

The same way there are many players who are drawn towards praying on the weak for kicks there are players who are drawn towards protecting them.  It doesn't matter if they are motivated by altruism, profit or personal safety in numbers the end result is meaningful conflict between the forces of order and those of chaos.  It doesn't seem like rocket science to me that if a game was to increase the power of those motivators and increasing the risk associated with straying too far onto the wrong side of the law that a gameworld with open pvp might be able to avoid devolving into lord of the flies.

[tazelbain]

Well, can't comment on FoM.  Don't know its mechanics.

game|open?|degenerate?|works?|meaningful?
Old-UO|yes|yes|no|no
Eve|no|no|yes|no
SB|yes|yes|no|no
DAoC|no|no|yes|no
GW|no|no|yes|no
WoW|no|no|yes|no

notice the pattern?

Now, you have it your head that someone, somewhere will make an open PvP system that won't degenerate.  Why? All evidence is to the contrary.     People are dicks. They are dicks squared when there are no consequences.  Throw in the dehumanization effect of the internet and they are dicks to the forth power.  Its just too much dick for any system to hand.  We restrict the amount of dickish behavior so we have to deal with 1.1^4 instead 10^4 and it works.

I'd like to see more dynamic worlds but open PvP is not the way to do it.

[WindupAtheist]

Just what IS the dynamic in EVE?  What percentage of the game consists of each of these security levels?  What happens when you try starting shit in one?

[Telemediocrity]

Good to see these pissing matches keep going on even when I take a break.

[Strazos]

In my experience "im being camped" translates into "im too stubborn to leave".  You can't be camped unless you choose to stick around, hell you can't even ganked unless you choose to be on a pvp server.  Pve servers have duels, arenas, and battlegrounds, the ONE AND ONLY difference between pve and pvp servers is that you can be ganked while you are out doing regular stuff.  Thats the only reason to roll on a pvp server, if you don't enjoy the idea that you are constantly in danger, that you can be killed at any time for any reason then theres simply no reason at all for you to be in a pvp server.  Asking to punish gankers is like jumping in front of a moving train and asking the driver to be thrown in jail for murder.

Are you a fucking moron? Do you even play the game? Do you even understand what I am talking about?

Anyway, yes, you can be camped, even if you try to leave the area when you rez. It's kind of hard to get away from a 60 on an epic mount.

Also, most people who play on a PvE server don't want to PvP, at all. This includes duels and battlegrounds. Half of the ones who do suck copious amounts of ass at it. Therefore, trying to get PvP action on a PvE action is something of an exercise in futility.

I don't mind "constantly being in danger." I don't mind getting jumped by people around my level, because then I at least have something of a chance to win or survive.

And wanting to throttle griefers a bit (because that's what they are) is far from unreasonable. Being demonstrative doesn't do much to prove your point - it just makes you look like a raging douchebag.

[Arthur_Parker]

Don't get me wrong- it was dumb of them to not have this in a safe zone.

But I still think the disruptors are dicks.

This is exactly what this:

Right. And this is the thing about Trammel and other MMOG restraints that most PKs/griefers will never understand. They brought it on themselves. If they had shown just an ounce of personal restraint, if they hadn't searched the event calendar for player weddings/funerals to disrupt, if they hadn't gone out of their way to target and harass player towns, if they hadn’t searched for every conceivable bug to loot someone’s house, and if they hadn't killed every naked miner at every opportunity, maybe, just maybe Trammel would never have happened. But as Televangilist said, the game let them do it. And by letting them do it, the developer lost subscribers. So they did the obvious thing - they stopped letting them do it. That's why the "but the game let me do it" argument doesn't hold water and in fact, is a self-fulfilling prophecy towards restraints.

was about.

These people are the reason we can't have nice things.  I'm certainly not patting them on the back.  The people having the funeral were foolishly naive for expecting any better of their fellow gamers- but that doesn't excuse those guys for NOT having the class to let it be.  Any number of real-world analogies will showcase this.

I do consider it griefing, and I do consider it a dick move on their part.  But it's not shocking, really.  If anything, it just reaffirms what we already know about players of these type:  that there is nothing too sacred, nothing too low.  And we just have to live with the fact that those people represent a good portion of our hobby's fanbase.

You know you are quoting a UO Dread Lord, right?  I assumed that post was a joke, if it was meant to be serious it's funnier.

[Azazel]

Good to see these pissing matches keep going on even when I take a break.

They were going on long before you showed up here. 

[Llava]

Good to see these pissing matches keep going on even when I take a break.

They were going on long before you showed up here. 

Not according to Zen.

[HaemishM]

Ok so let me see here, I give 3 examples from 3 different games only one of which was even making an effort to stop gankers (FoM) of how players are protecting game areas through their own willpower and devices in open pvp games.  In fact all 3 of the examples show meaningful pvp (people fighting to keep space safe in EvE, people working for the cops/military in FoM -a factional choice- doing their jobs and players in SB keeping the city safe so that they can make tons of money from the vendors/trainers).

Shadowbane is shutting down in a month. Faces of Mankind... well it sucked so much ass, it's really not worthy of the discussion. But is it even still living? Of all you mention, only Eve can be called a success, and its 100,000 subscribers is not going to threaten WoW anytime soon. Niches, see?

Also, the thing you mention in Eve isn't player justice, it's players staking claims over the section of space; if a police force did what you are describing, they'd be called corrupt because they not only take out the bad guys but anyone they don't like. Justice is fair and even-handed, which is why player justice as a whole doesn't work. Players aren't going to be fair or even-handed most of the time.

[HaemishM]

Miyagi: Now, ready?
Daniel: I guess so.
Miyagi: [sighs] Daniel-san, must talk. Man walk on road. Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk down middle, sooner or later, get squished
[makes squish gesture]
Miyagi: just like grape. Same here. You karate do "yes," or karate do "no." You karate do "guess so,"
[makes squish gesture]
Miyagi: just like grape. Understand?
Daniel: Yeah, I understand.
Miyagi: Now, ready?
Daniel: Yeah, I'm ready.

I disagree with what you said, Miyagi. Humanity lives in the middle.

[Hoax]

Ok so let me see here, I give 3 examples from 3 different games only one of which was even making an effort to stop gankers (FoM) of how players are protecting game areas through their own willpower and devices in open pvp games.  In fact all 3 of the examples show meaningful pvp (people fighting to keep space safe in EvE, people working for the cops/military in FoM -a factional choice- doing their jobs and players in SB keeping the city safe so that they can make tons of money from the vendors/trainers).

Shadowbane is shutting down in a month. Faces of Mankind... well it sucked so much ass, it's really not worthy of the discussion. But is it even still living? Of all you mention, only Eve can be called a success, and its 100,000 subscribers is not going to threaten WoW anytime soon. Niches, see?

Also, the thing you mention in Eve isn't player justice, it's players staking claims over the section of space; if a police force did what you are describing, they'd be called corrupt because they not only take out the bad guys but anyone they don't like. Justice is fair and even-handed, which is why player justice as a whole doesn't work. Players aren't going to be fair or even-handed most of the time.

Niche proves what exactly?  None of those 3 games have huge budgets either, all were made by companies with a shitton less experience/talent/magic mojo then Blizzard.

I can construct a 100% logical argument about how WoW's gameplay is absolute trite shit, it boils down to the same unimpressive shit that we've seen re-skinned ad nauseam since EQ.  You will of course counter with, WoW is polished and fun which is true.  I've played it I can see the basic appeal.  Good for you, the blizz fanbois and all the newbs to MMO's that haven't already been playing that game for years.  But using the fact that there are more people who want to play a shiney game where things work perfectly then a game with obvious flaws that is trying to do a little more then clone EQ doesn't prove anything.  You can't have your cake and eat it too here, either American Idol is the best TV show or WoW having millions of subs proves nothing in terms of its merits versus those of other games.

As for EvE, if there is a set of behaviors that the playerbase will tolerate and another set they will not and they are able to protect parts of the gameworld from those who perpetrate the behaviors they want to avoid then there is player justice, perhaps you dont agree with the laws they choose to enforce, their method of enforcement or the barrier for entry into their protected space.  But if you dont, then take some of your own, set up your own rules and make sure you can enforce them.  See?  Player freedom, its a wonderful thing.  If you dont like the way people act in WoW, well  you better leave the area, mute them, or log off.  See?  Game on rails.

[WindupAtheist]

Shadowbane is shutting down in a month.

Being a UO player in 2006 is like being a wicked and bitter old man, kept alive only by hatred and the desire to see his enemies die before he does.  Shadowbane is closing?  Allow me to think back on years worth of "Shadowbane is going to kill this game!" and "See you in Shadowbane assholes!" posts from disrgruntled UO PKs and laugh my ass off.

I can't wait for them to pull the plug on SWG so I can run laps around Brit bank and figuratively dance on it's grave.

[Dren]

I'd have never quit SB if they had done three things:

1.  Make the game technically work.
2.  Bypass the terrible PvE afk leveling in the game.
3.  Not make it so damned easy to wipe a town away.  Defenders should always have the advantage.

They solved number 3 too late.

If they just gave you all the exp you needed to be a participant in the wars at the beginning, you could build your template as you wanted and get at it.  The challenges would have been in maintaining your city, shops/items, and the mines they added later.

WP continued to hold onto that stupid PvE portion of the game.  They could have kept all the monsters and lore, but just made everyone viable from character creation.  All PvE would be from that point on is a way of increasing fame, items, gold, etc.  Using it as a block to character creation was just not right for that game.

The lands that held the best hunting grounds would be like mines.  To be fought over, etc.  The way they left it, you were just a wolf forced to be a lamb for some time before you could be a wolf.

I did not quit SB because it was open PvP.  That was the thing that kept me there as long as it did.

[Jayce]

I can construct a 100% logical argument about how WoW's gameplay is absolute trite shit, it boils down to the same unimpressive shit that we've seen re-skinned ad nauseam since EQ. 

...

Good for you, the blizz fanbois and all the newbs to MMO's that haven't already been playing that game for years.

# 1 - how can you construct a logical argument that would effectively "prove" an opinoin?  I would love to see this.

# 2 - I am neither and I have enjoyed WOW (with a several-month break) since release.  Try again.

[HaemishM]

Vitrolic hatred for WoW

WoW is not American Idol. It can actually provide pointers for some basic lessons for MMOG developers in the future. Just because it IS an EQ clone doesn't mean it can't also be FUN. It is both. I see nothing wrong with that.

As for EvE, if there is a set of behaviors that the playerbase will tolerate and another set they will not and they are able to protect parts of the gameworld from those who perpetrate the behaviors they want to avoid then there is player justice, perhaps you dont agree with the laws they choose to enforce, their method of enforcement or the barrier for entry into their protected space.  But if you dont, then take some of your own, set up your own rules and make sure you can enforce them.  See?  Player freedom, its a wonderful thing.  If you dont like the way people act in WoW, well  you better leave the area, mute them, or log off.  See?  Game on rails.

But what you mention isn't justice, it's territorial control.

Justice is:

The quality of being just; fairness.

The principle of moral rightness; equity.
Conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude; righteousness.

And this isn't that. It IS the implementation of player LAW, which isn't the same thing. It is was justice, it'd be fair, and you yourself said there were some people who they just blew up to blow up, because they didn't like them or for whatever reason. Perhaps it was because of their misdeeds or perhaps not, but it wasn't justice. And if it only exists in certain areas, that means there are obviously other areas where their player "justice" can have no effect?

Player "justice" to mean anything within the context of stopping griefers AND keeping people from quitting the game in frustration will have to be a global thing. Just being able to band together to gank the gankers ISN'T justice, it's vengeance, which does nothing for the ganked.

[Telemediocrity]

Since when is justice more fun than vengeance?  Since when is 'fairness' a big deal in MMOs to begin with?

It seems to me that if you're making a fun game, players won't be caring too much whether it's fair or not - they'll just be playing and having fun.  If your game isn't fun, and everyone's just worried about how their numbers stack up to everyone else's, that's when the complaints about fairness start coming out.

A truly fun MMO should be able to run under the weight of gross class/playstyle imbalances and still not suffer too much.

A game where everyone's worried about balance between classes, gear, playstyles, etc. is a game that probably isn't all that fun.

[Rasix]

A game where everyone's worried about balance between classes, gear, playstyles, etc. is a game that probably isn't all that fun.

It's also a game that's being actually played by people on the planet Earth.  If we're going to completely disregard reality when discussing games in regards to player motivations, we might as well discuss the ramifications for playing the game on planet Zircon in the Horsefucker nebula where the concepts of greed, jealousy and self-esteem are yet to be discovered.

[Telemediocrity]

A game where everyone's worried about balance between classes, gear, playstyles, etc. is a game that probably isn't all that fun.

It's also a game that's being actually played by people on the planet Earth.  If we're going to completely disregard reality when discussing games in regards to player motivations, we might as well discuss the ramifications for playing the game on planet Zircon in the Horsefucker nebula where the concepts of greed, jealousy and self-esteem are yet to be discovered.

What the fuck are you smoking?  People have played plenty of games that don't play by your bullshit rules and enjoyed them plenty.  In AC1, back when Mace and Spear were uber-gimped (essentially 50% damage output of better weapons), people who knew the game still made mace and spear chars from time to time, because it was fun.

In AC1, it was an Absolute Mandate of the Game that quest weapons could never be as good as loot.  They always had to be 75% of the DPS of loot weapons, max.

New quests came out every month, and 90% of them did not produce any gear that was better than what you already had.  People still did tons of quests.

The same is true of plenty of other MMOs, I'd imagine.

There were a few bitches about class balance, there were a few complaints about 'useless' quest weapons, but 95+% of the playerbase couldn't give a shit less.  They just played.

I repeat: WTF are you smoking?