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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Topic: WAR Warhammer preview PC Gamer April 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: WAR Warhammer preview PC Gamer April  (Read 74932 times)
Modern Angel
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Reply #70 on: March 01, 2006, 02:04:39 PM

I've been interested in the game for awhile now. I'm still interested after reading the article excerpts which is a good sign.

My only fear is that the character movement will still look and feel like swimming in Jell-O, ala DAoC.
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #71 on: March 01, 2006, 02:12:50 PM

I'm 28. Why? Are we going to have a retarded argument about who knows more?

Do you seriously not see any difference in the way GW conducts itself now as opposed to 15 years ago? Or a difference in the relation between its sales and design wings? I mean, if you don't, cool... cars used to be big but now they can be small. They're still cars. I'm not certain what company you're looking at, though.

No I don't think so, I just wanted to know you were 13 when I started working for them.

The direction of the company changed to being fairly close to what it is today when Bryan Ansell took over, that's probably about 1986, white Dwarf 75 or 76 (I think it was 76) if you open the front page and check the contents page, if you read the first letter of each subheading on that page.  It spells out "Sod off Bryan Ansell".  Most of the white Dwarf staff left in protest at direction change of the company away from RPG's.  GW originally started with a license to import D&D into the UK, up to Bryan taking over White Dwarf published lots of roleplaying features, AD&D, traveller etc etc, that all stopped.

When Tom Kirby and that accountant Chris something mortgaged everything they owned to buy GW the direction changed again, White Dwarf got smaller and became what it is today.  That was 1992 I think, around the time all the WHFRP stock was sold off and it was totally dropped even though it wasn't exactly a popular product to push under Bryan, I have been in a few stores since then and I really really don't think anything major has changed since.  Seeing as Mr Kirby is still in charge I don't really find that terribly surprising.  What I was surprised about was the Black Library, all the old books being reprinted and a 2nd edition of WHFRP, but that's easily explained when money is considered, as a large amount of income is generated by mail order sales and always has been.

If anything the black library and the lack of WHFRP in the stores just goes to prove GW don't have a problem showing different faces of the IP in different market places.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2006, 02:14:37 PM by Arthur_Parker »
Morfiend
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Reply #72 on: March 01, 2006, 02:44:42 PM

No I don't think so, I just wanted to know you were 13 when I started working for them.

Totally off topic. But when I read this quote, all I could think of was the Comic Book Guy from Simpsons. Try saying the above line in his voice.
Hoax
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Reply #73 on: March 01, 2006, 02:44:52 PM

Fuck me, I'll bite.

World pvp is more fun because I dont know exactly how it is going to go the second it starts.  I dont even know when it is going to start.  I dont know who I'm going to fight, or how many of them, or if I'll fight them at all.

I'm glad counterstrike with less skill over and over and over entertains you, WITH ONLY THREE MAPS.  Welcome to 7 years ago for me.  I dont play these fucking games to learn some stupid map like the back of my hand so I can pwn newbs.  I'd rather just match wits in random unbalanced situations and sometimes win and sometimes loose.  I like running around in gank squads I like defending against gank squads.  I like random town raids in Arathi Highlands, I don't fucking like Battlegrounds, I can tell what will happen in a BG within 6 minutes (usually only AV takes that long), I look at the team composition and know which side is going to steamrole the other.

Yes once in a blue fucking moon you get two sides that are of equal skill and then you get the gaming nirvana that is actual challenging pvp.  But world pvp is always challenging due to its random nature.  Sure I fucking hate getting gangraped by levels/gear/numbers with absolutely no chance of reprisal.  I think my thoughts on stealthers in MMORPG's are well fucking documented (fuck them, fuck the current accepted form of stealth in its stupid little asshole).  But I'll take those frustrations for not having to slog through 10+ BG rounds where my actions mean dickall because I already know which side is going to win for every "good" fight.

Tactics are a fucking joke outside of WSG, where due to the ub3rness of Druid flagrunners tactics still remain pretty much a joke.

WoW BG's are fucking Tribes for lobotomy patients, anyone who says otherwise just hasn't woken up and smelled the piss in his fucking coffee yet.

P.S.  I still think that GW making a cartoony golfcourse looking bright pastel world is horseshit and I dont care if I have to agree with HRose to make that statement.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2006, 02:46:33 PM by Hoax »

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Arthur_Parker
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Reply #74 on: March 01, 2006, 03:06:39 PM

No I don't think so, I just wanted to know you were 13 when I started working for them.

Totally off topic. But when I read this quote, all I could think of was the Comic Book Guy from Simpsons. Try saying the above line in his voice.

I think I have mentioned working for GW 3 times in the past 6-7 years here or in various previous forums from ltm, it's certainly not something I'm proud of.  I'm used to "retarded" being used in general conversation but saw no need for the "Downs" comment, also the "head wound" comment at a time when he didn't actually disagee with me on anything.  HRose at least attempts to back his points up.
Modern Angel
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Reply #75 on: March 01, 2006, 03:12:07 PM

Huh, wha? Down's is HRose, not you. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Not certain what points aren't being backed up here though we did get off on a vague GW bashing tangent when I actually enjoy GW's stuff. Now I've run in big circles and can barely remember what the original point was beyond Warhammer's art style isn't terribly gritty anymore.
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Reply #76 on: March 01, 2006, 03:15:32 PM

That goblin I posted above is much more lowe poly than those screenshots from Mythicx since it's an RTS with large armies.

It still looks more realistic. This is exclusively a problem of choosing a style.

-HRose / Abalieno
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Reply #77 on: March 01, 2006, 03:21:22 PM

Couple of quotes from Mark Jacobs on this.

Quote from: Mark Jacobs
Folks,

Nice surprise eh? The PC Gamer story is the main reason I've been so secretive here and why Mythic has revealed so little information about the game until now. Once we found out we were going to get the cover, we keep out big mouths shut (and lord knows that is not easy for me) until the issue hit the stands. It was a bit of a rush to get the story done and other than a couple minor mistakes, they did a really good job on it. I like the PC Gamer folks a lot (and not just because they gave us the cover) and the stand that they have taken against gold farming and companies that participate in it, is one I applaud most heartily. Luckily for us, the troll was too stupid to know that it was being insulted and the the golbins around our area were too small to do anything about it. 

So, some quick notes:

1) Sanya is indeed "THE SANYA, THE GATEKEEPER, SHE OF ALL POWER ON THE INTERNET BEFORE WHOM ALL MUST MAKE OBEISIANCE" and I'm sure you will hear a lot more from her and her people over the coming years.

2) As I promised and warned everyone, WAR != DAoC2 != DAoC. It is it's own beast and what you have read in the article is only part of the story.

3) Server resets only mean that certain parts of the server are reset. No character resets or anything like that. It will work and it will work well I believe. Capturing and sacking a city is not only part of WH lore but it fits well into a game setting. It cannot be easy for a whole host of reasons and it must take place over days. If it was something that could be done easily by a group (even a large group), then server population imbalances, time-zone issues and other such stuff would render such things as those meaningless. By making it more of a campaign, those sorts of things will have less effect on an individual basis. For the core RvR gamer, the idea of being able to sack another side's city (and come away with loot) is something that we have all been waiting for in these types of games.

4) Scenarios are not WoW's BGs (or our BGs for that mater). We need to do a better job than anyone has done to date and we are well down that path.

5) The graphics are not WoW's at all. Keep in mind that the area that PC Gamer was able to see did not lend itself to the kind of darkness or imagination that other areas will. Running around a mountainous area that has been overrun by Greenskins doesn't lend itself to a lot of diversity. Where the differences will really become apparent are in the character customization and in areas like the Elven lands. Keep in mind that the game changes weekly and after their most recent GW visit, the guys were shocked at how much things changed in only a few weeks.

6) I think you guys are spot on when you see it looks like a cross between 5th and 6th edition and the WFB miniatures. That's the look we are going for. We don't want to be as dark as the 6th edition in all areas, nor do we want to be as light as 5th edition (which is a long that WoW is a lot closer to). We wanted our own look for the game and we think we have nailed it so far. As I promised from the beginning we were going to disappoint some people who wanted us to be ultra-dark and some others who wanted us to be a lot lighter (like 5th). We think we have a great look for the game and if we can do with the Elves what we did with the Orcs, I'll be really, really happy.

Well, that's it for now.

Mark

Quote from: Mark Jacobs
Seldaren,

Actually, the version that PC Gamer saw was a non-optimized version running on a not-so-powerful demo machine (great graphic card, slowish CPU). One of the things that Mythic has never and will never do is play the "phonied up sceenshot game" that some other developers have done. I've spoken up about this over the years and it is something that Mythic stands by 100% What PC gamer saw was the same live version of the game that all the developers get to play on. And let me tell you, it did show a flaw or two but that is to be expected at this point. Our attitude is that we would rather show the magazine a slightly less impression version (when compared to something that was "juiced") from one standpoint but a more impressive version from all other standpoints (live version with lots of people in it). As MMORPG developers we've always felt that being able to show a game that is actually a running game would have more resonance with the magazines and the fans than the other way around. I love it when the reporters say things like "When did you guys start working on this?" and seeing their jaws drop when we tell them the start date. 

Mark
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Reply #78 on: March 01, 2006, 03:24:03 PM

Is that jaw dropping because strangely there is a lot of "romanesqe" stuff in the game or because it was so very long ago?

Modern Angel
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Reply #79 on: March 01, 2006, 03:24:29 PM

1) The game is still in some quasi-alpha testing state. I'll eat my WoW CDs if that's what it looks like in the end.
2) You didn't say it was a matter of style preference. You said it was not Warhammer.

To which I reply:


Not terribly sinister, current catalog.


Mmmm... pretty not scary, current catalog.


Oops

EDIT: Saw the new quotes. That is interesting if they go for a mix of styles from the different periods of Warhammer stuffs.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2006, 03:27:08 PM by Modern Angel »
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #80 on: March 01, 2006, 03:29:04 PM

1) The game is still in some quasi-alpha testing state. I'll eat my WoW CDs if that's what it looks like in the end.
2) You didn't say it was a matter of style preference. You said it was not Warhammer.

To which I reply:

Quote somebody for god's sake, I'm assuming this isn't directed to me.
Modern Angel
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Reply #81 on: March 01, 2006, 03:31:36 PM

Oh, fuck no. HRose. I was told in my first couple posts not to quote people if I was just going to give a small reply. Strange etiquette but not my playground. This is the second time I've been having an epileptic swearing jag and there's been confusion as to who was directing what to who.

See what you have wrought, f13 forum rulers!
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Reply #82 on: March 01, 2006, 03:39:16 PM

Oh, fuck no. HRose. I was told in my first couple posts not to quote people if I was just going to give a small reply. Strange etiquette but not my playground. This is the second time I've been having an epileptic swearing jag and there's been confusion as to who was directing what to who.

See what you have wrought, f13 forum rulers!
Are you being paid to troll me?

Because you are truly amusing.

2) You didn't say it was a matter of style preference. You said it was not Warhammer.
Where?

Because this is what I wrote:
Quote
Warhammer is a fucking SETTING. And it can be rendered in many different *styles*. We have PLENTY of proofs of Warhammer in the cartoonish look, as we have about the much more "violent" and realistic look.

The point is NOT who invented a cartoonish look before. The point is:
1- People would appreciate MUCH more a game looking realistic and that is completely different from WoW, exactly to DISTANCE Warhammer from it instead of looking like a bleached copy. This is what would MAKE SENSE even from a commercial point of view.
2- Mythic doesn't handle this style well. It's a lost battle fighting Blizzard right in their house.
Never said "it's not Warhammer".
« Last Edit: March 01, 2006, 03:43:54 PM by HRose »

-HRose / Abalieno
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Modern Angel
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Reply #83 on: March 01, 2006, 03:40:01 PM

Oh, fuck no. HRose. I was told in my first couple posts not to quote people if I was just going to give a small reply. Strange etiquette but not my playground. This is the second time I've been having an epileptic swearing jag and there's been confusion as to who was directing what to who.

See what you have wrought, f13 forum rulers!
Are you being paid to troll me?

Because you are truly amusing.

Not nearly enough, sparky. I think you do a pretty good job al on your own, though.
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #84 on: March 01, 2006, 03:42:22 PM

Are you being paid to troll me?

Because you are truly amusing.

He's a bot, I'm working out the bugs and intending to add higher cognitive function next week.
Modern Angel
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Reply #85 on: March 01, 2006, 05:32:33 PM

It's true. I'm made of computers.
Signe
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Reply #86 on: March 01, 2006, 08:17:12 PM


My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
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Reply #87 on: March 01, 2006, 10:24:18 PM

I just hope that someone mentions to anyone at GW that people will pay real world money for in game items and gold. If there is one company on the planet that will not only demand that Mythic add in game support for tossing more money at the game, it's GW. Shit, they'll probably demand that the very best item in every category be only available for real world money. Mmmmmmm, perfection.

Having said that, I just got back from buying 5 boxes of Tomb Guard, 6 boxes of Tomb king Skele's, and 3 extra sprues so they can all have the Tomb King style skeleton heads. Tomb King are teh r0xx0rz.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2006, 10:27:03 PM by angry.bob »

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Modern Angel
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Reply #88 on: March 02, 2006, 05:34:01 AM

Pardone moi, Mr. HRose. It seems I misquoted you. Please allow me to copy, paste, and italicize what you wrote.

I was expecting the game to have the harsh, gritty look, taking out the darker side of the setting and going sharply AGAINST WoW at least on this aspect. Well, they are going with even more caricatural, cartoonish, oddly colored and odd looking version of WoW.

Believe it or not, I'm not joking.

Not only they are copying the look of WoW characters, but they are copying also how the environments look and the pastel-colored textures of the buildings. Look at the background of the big image on the middle-right with the dwarf. Tell me if that texture doesn't seem ripped off right from WoW.

Even the style of the weapons and armors is cartoonish and ripped off WoW. They are even imitating the big shoulderpads.


So, no, you didn't say not Warhammer. That was the implication I got. Instead you started flailing about how they're ripping off WoW's style. You COULD look at the palettes they're using in the minis photos I linked or browse their fine selection of miniatures in gaudy blues and reds for proof that they're NOT ripping off WoW but that might involve you finally farting the bug out of your ass that WoW's PvP put in there for you. Which is sort of like saying NOT WARHAMMER but not exactly.

Incidentally, we'll have to continue this silly sniping (and I realize it's silly even if you think I might be a red-faced hambeast behind the computer screaming at my keyboard) another day. Going out of town. :(
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Reply #89 on: March 02, 2006, 05:50:04 AM

Well, ten to one, it will be like DAoC in that it takes forever to level up and be on an decent playing field for RvR.  Hell, these games don't want decent, even, and balanced RvR, they want to cater to whoever has the most time and the best item.  Guess I'll stick to Planetside and Battlefield 2, where at least I can kill a higher level.
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Reply #90 on: March 02, 2006, 06:05:24 AM

It doesn't matter if GW did it first with their tabletop games -- WoW came out first in the MMORPG arena and they are currently the 800-pound gorilla in this space and if Mythic continues down this path of having a colorful cartoon-like environment WHO's graphic style *will* be compared to WoW's despite Mark Jacobs's protestations ("The graphics are not WoW's at all" O Rly Mark?).

Edit: fixed typo
« Last Edit: March 02, 2006, 07:48:52 AM by Trippy »
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Reply #91 on: March 02, 2006, 08:41:23 AM

Well since "WAR !=DAOC" it'll be interesting to see how they do the [3 way] PvP

The Climax version wasn't going to have a traditional PvP system, it was all about opposed archetypes (witch hunters vs necromancers etc) which was so full of fucking holes it was untrue (I remember asking a dev at the games day seminar if people grouped with a necromancer could attack the witch hunter 'no' was the reply WTF?!!!!)

I doubt it will be too hard to split the warhammer races up into 3 sides (if I were a betting man I'd say, Humans, non-dark Elves, Dwarves vs Chaos (Norse, beastmen, dark elves etc) vs 'other' (Undead, Orcs, Ogres, Skaven)) and the 3 way thing stops one side totally trouncing the other (although its not working out so well for the TR in Euro Planetside....)

Given the 'PvP' nature of the table games I wonder if it will be more like Guildwars where the PvE is simply a vehicle to build your character for PvP (which to be fair seems to be what DAOC is really about....)
Morfiend
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Reply #92 on: March 02, 2006, 10:29:44 AM

No I don't think so, I just wanted to know you were 13 when I started working for them.

Totally off topic. But when I read this quote, all I could think of was the Comic Book Guy from Simpsons. Try saying the above line in his voice.

I think I have mentioned working for GW 3 times in the past 6-7 years here or in various previous forums from ltm, it's certainly not something I'm proud of.  I'm used to "retarded" being used in general conversation but saw no need for the "Downs" comment, also the "head wound" comment at a time when he didn't actually disagee with me on anything.  HRose at least attempts to back his points up.

I wasnt taking a stab at you or any thing. It was just that one quote, and when I read it, that was all I could think of.
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Reply #93 on: March 03, 2006, 12:01:58 AM

stuff

Preach on, brother. WoW died for me with the battlegrounds. It didn't die with the honor system, actually the honor system WITHOUT the battlegrounds was pretty darn fine. I don't even fucking want their rewards, all I need are the ranks. I still remember last year March, April and May me and a friend priest, all in blue and with my Arcanite Reaper roaming Western Plaguelands and stalking the bullwark. I don't think I've ever had more fun in WoW than that one time we killed a whole horde Scholomance raid, chipping at them one orc at a time.

Battlegrounds were never fun for me. It was either enter with a PUG and pull your hair out or enter with a whole team on TS and just wtfpwn them. I haven't played many battlegrounds, but from around 500 I've had real fun ONCE. We knew who the other roamers are, we met them from time to time and these were the best fights. It was always 2v3, 4v3, 5v4 and it was ALWAYS fun and it felt like something when you won. We never attacked the lowbie level 52 undead priest grinding one of the cauldrons, it wasn't fun. But from time to time, they'd gather up (5-6 of them) and jump us. And it was challenging. And it was FUN. Fuck battlegrounds :)

As a matter of fact I swallowed one of these about two hours ago and the explanation is that it is, in fact, my hand.
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Reply #94 on: March 03, 2006, 12:40:52 AM

Even the style of the weapons and armors is cartoonish and ripped off WoW. They are even imitating the big shoulderpads.

Again, you are a fucking idiot.

WOW was ripped off directly from Warhammer. These designs are vintage Warhammer. Thus, it isn't WoW they are ripping off, but the style of the license which just happened to have been ripped off by Warcraft.

This quotation reminds me of a conversation overheard by a friend of mine.  He was listening to some bubbleheaded-blonde mall bimbos discussing the latest craptastic tune by Britney Spears, when a song, played by a VERY famous older singer comes on.  Coincidently, Britney had recently done a terible pop-ified cover of said song.  He found it highly amusing when said Mall-trash began to complain about how this person (who did the origional song when Britney was probably still in diapers) was "ripping off" Britneys latest pop masterpiece.

If you HONESTLY believe that Warhammer is ripping off WoW, you really need a reality check.  It has been a standing joke for YEARS that the only Warhammer / 40k computer games worth playing are blizzard products.

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Reply #95 on: March 03, 2006, 02:04:47 AM

When did people start listening to Hrose at all? Am I the only one who thinks his brand of bullshit is the worst flavored on the internet? He writes a lot, but manages to write oh so little. And yes, I know he's still in the room and can hear me.
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Reply #96 on: March 03, 2006, 02:30:31 AM

HRose has a point that Warhammer online could be choose from many different *styles*, it doesn't have to match a visual style based on figures a few cm tall.  The main reason miniatures are so exaggerated in brightness is largely due to their size anyway.

I disagree with just about everything else he said though.

This quote is from yesterday about the brightness of the alpha screenshots and different rule set servers at release.

Quote from: Mark Jacobs
As to other things, you can expect that we'll be looking at other rulesets for the game. I've run alternate rulesets in online games for decades and I think that the stuff we did in DAoC is just a goof jumping off point (though some thought that the jumping off point was a cliff) for what we want to do in the future. We want, as well as lots of different things to throw into our RvR design to make it even more interesting for the players. All sorts of ideas are on the table and we're always open for more, especially at this point. As to the screenies being a little bright, I can understand why some people think that but I also remind the group that this is just one area and we have lots and lots more to do.

The point about Orcs and Chaos crafting is a good one and one we looked at but the problem is that we have to all understand that the Greenskin realm will probably be the least popular of all the realms. People, as a general rule, like to play humans and based on all of the MMORPGs out there, good-looking humans. Depending on what kind of job we do with Chaos, they might be a bit understafffed as well. Thus, we must make sure that we don't take away things from those realms that by doing so, make the realms even more out of balance. My fear with removing such things from those realms is that we would then lose a certain percentage of the population that actually enjoys crafting and would, in the Greenskins and Chaos realms, see a wonderful opportunity because of the lesser number of competiton that they would see there. And while we believe the things we are doing to help ease an expected imbalance will help, I also believe that there is a certain level of imbalance that would be impossible for game systems to even out. The last thing we all want is RvR battles with 10 player-Orcs and 100 player controlled NPCs versus 110 player-humans.

That's not to say I don't think WAR will eventually look a lot like WoW, similar ip's and the success of WoW make that likely.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 02:41:15 AM by Arthur_Parker »
eldaec
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Reply #97 on: March 03, 2006, 03:21:48 AM

One thing I hope (and expect) Mythic do understand after daoc is that a dark atmosphere is not the same thing as making it hard to see.

A this point in the development cycle official forum idiots will always complain about screenshots being too 'bright' even if all they really mean is that they can see what is happening.

Similarly a dark atmosphere is not the same thing as a cramped dungeon and a low ceiling that makes the camera position impossible to manage.

DAoC, like all mmogs went through the ever repeating developer learning curve on this issue, hopefully WAR can skip it.

(to see what I mean take a look at early DAoC, CoH, EQ1, EQ2 dungeons, they are too dark, have low ceilings, and you spend half your time getting irritated at trying to manage the camera angle. Devs all learn after an expansion or two that high light levels, and high ceilings are critical) (oh, and before someone says something stupid about immersion remember that "real" barbarian heroes and elven wizards have the advantage of actually being there and so naturally have much better awareness of their surroundings than can ever be transmitted through your screen, having to raise the ambient light levels and ceilings, like having to use instancing or accelerate travel times, is just how you compensate for the limitations of the medium.)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 03:24:24 AM by eldaec »

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Reply #98 on: March 03, 2006, 09:46:31 AM

When did people start listening to Hrose at all? Am I the only one who thinks his brand of bullshit is the worst flavored on the internet? He writes a lot, but manages to write oh so little. And yes, I know he's still in the room and can hear me.

He's not the WORST flavor. That would be the Furry Who Shall Not Be Named.

But he's certainly on the level of Dr. Smart.

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Reply #99 on: March 03, 2006, 10:49:12 AM

Sorry man, I'd welcome the Woodcock back here long before I'd ever invite he who shall not be named.

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Reply #100 on: March 03, 2006, 01:08:58 PM

Sorry man, I'd welcome the Woodcock back here long before I'd ever invite he who shall not be named.

No way, at least he who shall not be named is guaranteed to launch the message boards into a flame war that will go down in the history books.  When he who shall not be named shows up you are guaranteed entertainment.

Bruce is just annoying and disgusting..

If I had to make a choice between the two, I'd most certainly go with he who shall not be named.

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Reply #101 on: March 04, 2006, 12:20:14 AM

Who is That who shouldn'd be named?
and this game will suck donkey balls.I guarantee it.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2006, 12:21:47 AM by Lionhunter »

Mourning will release
Azazel
Contributor
Posts: 7735


Reply #102 on: March 04, 2006, 12:50:22 AM

Awesome!

A guarantee from some guy I've never heard of who knows no more about the game as any of the rest of us.

 Heart

http://azazelx.wordpress.com/ - My Miniatures and Hobby Blog.
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345


WWW
Reply #103 on: March 04, 2006, 12:55:11 AM

Awesome!

A guarantee from some guy I've never heard of who knows no more about the game as any of the rest of us.

 Heart

It'll suck. I could tell you why but it'll spoil the opportunity to have a 70 page thread about it when it crashes and burns. ^_^

Because I have 10,000+ posts and you're still here mean that my opinion holds more water than Lionhunter? I'm just wondering cuz that'd be neat.
Ironwood
Terracotta Army
Posts: 28240


Reply #104 on: March 04, 2006, 01:50:34 AM

Nah, 70 page threads only occur when YOU come out and say something could be good and turn out to be more wrong than was previously thought humanly possible.

It's the rarity value.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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