Heads up to raiders: out-of-combat rezzing nerfed, new bugs introduced

[Rasix]

It might not be that they're only taking 3 rogues; rogue attendance has been shit for us for the past couple weeks or so.   I love rogues, when they pull aggro it usually doesn't mean the raid eating some sort of breath attack.  However, with all of the PBAOE attacks prevalent in the game, it gets a bit tiresome healing them.   Luckily we've got more hunters than we know what to do with.

[Modern Angel]

And every guild is different, of course. I've gotten quite adept at surviving throughout MC with my rogue but that's not going to last forever. Not to mention it doesn't matter; I get my mage to 60 he's likely going to be retired. As it stands now there's no margin for error on the Domo fight. We have four mages that raid regularly. If even one goes down we're fucked on that fight.

That's what it boils down to, really: utility. Rogue dps is fine (though I would like to see eviscerate scale with weapon damage); it's the fact that dps is ALL WE CAN DO that is hurting us. Like I said, it's cool. I don't mind catassing a mage up to 60. I enjoy the class and, as I said, I'd rather see more content than clutch my rogue to my bosom and scream and cry. I just wish I'd known precisely HOW useless I was going to be when I started him up.

[Hoax]

I love the sound of stealth classes bitching in the morning.

NO SYMPATHY FOR YOU FUCKERS!

[Modern Angel]

And the crowd goes mild!

I complain only because we do one thing whereas every other class can do multiple things. I'm pretty content with the rogue with regards to that one thing.

[Mesozoic]

These issues can only really be addressed in a "Jeff Kelly doesn't like WoW" thread.

[HaemishM]

Can I please have the greif title of "diluted fool"??

That would make my day.

Consider yourself suitably griefed. You watery, watery fool.

[Tale]

My guild just killed Ragnaros for the first time last night, if that helps the above discussion in any way. I hadn't raided since September, so I probably don't know enough about how we did what we did, but I count seven rogues in the CTRA listing.

[Modern Angel]

It's definitely doable. Of course I'm slowly coming to the realization that my guild may very well not have its shit together. Something about thinking, deep down, that raiding and being a "friendly" guild (God I hate that term) are incompatible. To wit: some guy decides that he just not going to go get the fire resistance buff even though it was decided that's what we were going to do. It was wasting time, apparently. He's sitting in my Onyxia raid as I type this with nary a word said about it.

It's a goddamned shame that most guilds end up thinking they either have to be pricks or be lax with nothing in between.

[Merusk]

It's a no-win situation. If you're not lax, you're seen as a prick by someone, somewhere. Particularly with so many newbies around in the game.  If you ARE lax, chances are you're just going to get used by pricks as a stepping stone.   Of course, these guys are easy to recognize if you're paying attention, but most 'lax' guilds don't care enough to do so.

[Modern Angel]

Exactly.

My guild leadership is so terrified of some imaginary transiition to "raid guild" that people get away with more than they should. I'm of the mindset that if you're going to do the raid thing don't fuck around with it.

Instead, Mr. No FR Buff gets to do what he wants. Guy screamingon the forums about how utterly unfair doing Onyxia on a weekday is to him and we should reschedule doesn't get told that he should cut it out.

The other choice is joining a raiding guild and doing the every weeknight grind thing with puntative measures if you miss one due to, I don't know... sex or something.

There's a sweet spot in between which some guilds can hit. Unfortunately there's not a single one Horde side on my server. This is me kvetching about guild crumminess which is entirely ignorable.

[Azazel]

What does getting the FR buff entail exactly? If it entails endless mindless grinding hours of faction somewhere I can rightly see where he'd tell you to step off. If it's something relatively simple, (say, an hour or two at most with guild support) then he's being a bit recalcitrant.

[Jeff Kelly]

What does getting the FR buff entail exactly? If it entails endless mindless grinding hours of faction somewhere I can rightly see where he'd tell you to step off. If it's something relatively simple, (say, an hour or two at most with guild support) then he's being a bit recalcitrant.

Steps necessary to get the FR Buff:

1. Get 15 People including priests into Blackrock-Spire
2. Let Priests mind control one of the Spellcasters
3. Apply Buff to Raid
4. repeat until all are buffed

Takes 20 minutes at the most

[Calantus]

It's definitely doable. Of course I'm slowly coming to the realization that my guild may very well not have its shit together. Something about thinking, deep down, that raiding and being a "friendly" guild (God I hate that term) are incompatible. To wit: some guy decides that he just not going to go get the fire resistance buff even though it was decided that's what we were going to do. It was wasting time, apparently. He's sitting in my Onyxia raid as I type this with nary a word said about it.

It's a goddamned shame that most guilds end up thinking they either have to be pricks or be lax with nothing in between.

I'da kicked him from the guild right then and there, even though I'd also agree with him that it's largely a waste of time. If someone isn't going to follow directives they are deadweight and it's unfair for the rest of the guild to have to carry them. We have a frustrating split between those who are raiders first, and those who are "friendly guild" first and raiding second within the officers (3-way merge from a couple months back). It makes getting people kicked such a long and painful process. Today we finally got a hunter kicked after 2-3 weeks of trying and over a dozen hours of trying to convince the other side that he needs to go. Finally he does yet another thing stupid after we managed to force a "last warning, no really, we mean it this time" ultimatum on him and yet we STILL had to talk it over for like 4 hours. I can't see how purely "friendly guilds" get anything done in a raiding environment. The gaggle of idiots you'd have to put up with because nobody's ass gets kicked would kill me I think. -_-

[Modern Angel]

Yep, what Jeff said.

The thinking was that we're new to Rags and that it would be better to work on the collapse before passing out fire pots, flasks, getting the FR buff etc, etc. Now, I happened to agree with that assessment. I would rather the lesson learned be, "Fuck! I better haul ass to where I'm supposed to be because Sons hurt me BAD," than "Wow, this FR buff thing is pretty nice! So nice I don't have to go quite as fast."

But I'm not in charge. The guys in charge said let's do it, so we did it. Except for one guy who started bitching and whining on Vent, was told to stop being a tool and then decided to log off.

Now, 20 minutes, right? In theory but not my guild. See, my guild takes FOREVER to do anything. Remember: if you tell people to get it together and speed it up you're headed toward being a raiding guild and God knows that is a Very Bad Thing. So the FR buff doesn't take 20 minutes it takes 45. It was at near Keystone Cops levels of running around.

Epilogue: Douchebag Guy wins the Helmet of Ten Storms off of Onyxia last night. Hands are thrown in the air.

There's a sizable minority in the guild that's getting pretty weary of this sort of thing. WoW has very accessible raid content which you can do in chunks, isn't nearly as tough as the others and is actually pretty damned fun overall. The key to doing it, however, is to not fuck around while you're in there. You don't have to be the evil, evil raiding guild to experience it. You don't have to be dickheads or set down stringent attendance requirements. As I said, though, there's this invisible line which my guild (and I don't think we're alone in this by a long shot) is afraid to cross and instead of pleasing everybody it makes the whole thing an absurd ordeal pleasing nobody.

[Modern Angel]

I'da kicked him from the guild right then and there, even though I'd also agree with him that it's largely a waste of time. If someone isn't going to follow directives they are deadweight and it's unfair for the rest of the guild to have to carry them. We have a frustrating split between those who are raiders first, and those who are "friendly guild" first and raiding second within the officers (3-way merge from a couple months back). It makes getting people kicked such a long and painful process. Today we finally got a hunter kicked after 2-3 weeks of trying and over a dozen hours of trying to convince the other side that he needs to go. Finally he does yet another thing stupid after we managed to force a "last warning, no really, we mean it this time" ultimatum on him and yet we STILL had to talk it over for like 4 hours. I can't see how purely "friendly guilds" get anything done in a raiding environment. The gaggle of idiots you'd have to put up with because nobody's ass gets kicked would kill me I think. -_-

Ah, but here's where the other thing comes in. When you're on an older server and are anything but a healing class your options for joining another guild become increasingly narrow over time. This is especially true of Horde guilds where the population is smaller and a bit more stagnant. So you put in your time but you may end up coming to the slow, sinking realization that you've hitched your cart to the wrong horse. It may be bad where you're at but everyone else is set with what they need so you can't actually go anywhere.

I think that's why the new servers are so wildly popular. If you've never done endgame stuff in a Diku MMOG (and while I played them all I'd never done endgame stuff) you aren't certain what's involved. I think alot of folks are like me, realizing that they're stuck with a bunch of guys who just don't have their shit together and eventually just reroll on one of the new servers.  Thankfully I have a bit of an out: a few of our Horde guys are moonlighters from a guild with just about the right attitude I'm looking for on Alliance on the same server. I rolled a new toon last night. It involves going to 60 and whatnot but Alliance will be new and at least Molten Chore won't be a 7 hour ordeal anymore.*


*That's without a single wipe up to Rags and some semblance of chain pulling. Don't ask me.

[Wasted]

I'm never going to get to raid if I have to wait till I got my 'shit together' :/

[Modern Angel]

I don't have my shit together. I know that you don't have to go over boss strategy for five minutes before every single boss pull six months in, though. Looting also shouldn't take ten minutes.

[Calantus]

5 minute explanations 6 months in?

[Xanthippe]

The thing I absolutely hated about DAOC:ToA was not so much the actual content itself; it was the fact that it took people _an hour_ to get to the place they were supposed to be when they were supposed to be there.  A few people can fuck things up for everyone by being late, not paying attention, fucking off, etc.  And there was no saving of a 4- or 6- hour long raid in the middle of it. 

When I started playing WoW, I had the idea that end game raiding would just suck for the same reasons, but that has not come to be - for me - and for that I hold the leaders of my guild responsible.  They have the headaches of dealing with a 250+ person organization (and they are welcome to them, I have enough headaches managing my two kids tyvm; no aspirations here to be a gl), and they do a wonderful job.  Not on time?  You don't get a spot on the raid.  Fuck around or AFK without notice on the raid?  Get warned and/or booted.  I don't have a problem with that.  It makes it possible for me to raid, since I have 4 hrs available rather than 6 or 8 or 10 or whatever some of those ToA raids took.

My guild is one of those Evil Raiding Guilds, but I'd rather be in an organized guild with grownups than a friendly guild that tolerates fuckups any day.  Of course there is still daily drama but it's a large group of people so it's to be expected.  When I've been on MC or BWL raids, I'm given clear directions about what I'm to do, where to be, and so on.  It's actually fun (something I never thought I'd hear myself saying about a long raid with a lot of people), not painful.

[Ironwood]

Sorry, had to chime in again.

I went on a 15 man UBRS Raid at the weekend AND a 5 man BRD run.

The BRD was filled with excitement, teamwork, challenge, loot and - giving I wanted to make Dark Iron - objectives beyond the questing.

The UBRS run was a pointless 15 man zerg fest with no skill involved whatsoever where my Rogue literally spent minutes idling while I eat a pizza.

Once again I put it to you that there should be no need for Raid Groups.  They are prehistoric and should be done away with.  In WoW right now, I have my old D&D feeling back.

[Modern Angel]

Five minute explanations six months in, yes. Ostensibly for the one or two new people who might be there though it's actually to make the more casual players feel comfortable I think. My suggestion to open up a new raider channel to go over strategy in text was met with a question as to why nobody had stepped up to do it... even though I'd done that with five new people over the past few months. It's the little things that let you know you're on a ship bound for nowhere.

As to raids vs. five mans I enjoy them both equally. Depends on what flavor I'm in the mood for. Also remember that UBRS is actually keyed for ten man runs, not fiteen.

[Tale]

Looting also shouldn't take ten minutes.

Douchebag Guy wins the Helmet

Wins? What system are you using to allocate loot?

[Ironwood]

As to raids vs. five mans I enjoy them both equally. Depends on what flavor I'm in the mood for. Also remember that UBRS is actually keyed for ten man runs, not fiteen.

Fair enough, but I've thought about it since posting and I reckon even with ten men it would be boring as hell.  The encounters just aren't any fun.

[Modern Angel]

Wins is a bit misleading. He was top of the DKP list for shammies. He earned it, no arguments there, but he shouldn't have even been allowed on the raid after the shit he'd pulled earlier.

And UBRS is pretty boring. MC isn't bad; a little too much trash for my tastes. BWL, ZG (after the trash nerf) and AQ by all accounts are alot of fun. Your definition of fun will vary, as always.

[Phred]

My guild is one of those Evil Raiding Guilds, but I'd rather be in an organized guild with grownups than a friendly guild that tolerates fuckups any day.  Of course there is still daily drama but it's a large group of people so it's to be expected.  When I've been on MC or BWL raids, I'm given clear directions about what I'm to do, where to be, and so on.  It's actually fun (something I never thought I'd hear myself saying about a long raid with a lot of people), not painful.

It always kind of baffled me how someone in a "friends" guild could disrespect his friends so much that he'd waste their time like this consistantly. Not the kind of behaviour I look for in a freind really.

[HaemishM]

Now, 20 minutes, right? In theory but not my guild. See, my guild takes FOREVER to do anything. Remember: if you tell people to get it together and speed it up you're headed toward being a raiding guild and God knows that is a Very Bad Thing. So the FR buff doesn't take 20 minutes it takes 45. It was at near Keystone Cops levels of running around.

There actually IS a thin line, but there's also a few lines. You CAN be a friendly guild and raid, but you can't if raiding is going to be your main activity. Raiding can be a side activity so long as you:

1) Don't let people acting like spoiled brats about loot
2) Have policies in place for dispute resolution
3) Take a firm stand in raiding discipline

The whole "I'm not going to go get the buff" thing? Uh uh. In the friendly guild I ran in EQ, that shit wouldn't fly. I may not have required people to attend raids, but if you came, you damn sure better be doing what the raid leader said. In Vox raids, if you were going to be a dumbass and not get in the buff line or you did something stupid like fall down in the pits despite my having told you over and over where not to walk, you got to sit out the raid. We did no corpse recovery in the pits beforehand, and no one went unbuffed. Being friendly doesn't have to mean you are stupid. The worst parts we had were the loot arguments when crafting the loot policy (which got to unmanagable proportions when epic loot got involved) and people showing up late.

Raiding takes discipline. It isn't hard, but some people just don't seem to want to put in the effort, but still want the loot. That would be fine if no one else had to put in the effort either. But when 39 others are, you damn well better not be a fuckmonkey.

[Merusk]

UBRS is a very crappily-designed Dungeon.  Strath/ Scholo are much, much better while still heavy on some of the suckitude. (Spawning Gandling and the Fatty area outside Baron being the worst two parts.)

ZG is a lot of fun, and you DO feel like it's a challenge at the boss encounters. (Until you get the strategy down and everyone knows what to do and when.. then it gets boring again.)  The few times I went to MC it felt way too much like an old EQ raid for my tastes.  Quick killing tons of trash mobs and being focused on getting your raid's ass so they don't respawn and wipe you isn't fun.. it's tedious bullshit.

[Modern Angel]

That is EXACTLY my mindset, Haemish.

[Calantus]

The UBRS run was a pointless 15 man zerg fest with no skill involved whatsoever where my Rogue literally spent minutes idling while I eat a pizza.

Here you say you zerged an instance and it was boring with no skill involved.

I would suggest taking less time if you want it to be more fun, but since you'd never convince people to do that for you, I will instead suggest you try an instance like ZG or BWL before deciding raiding is boring and takes no skill (in ZG, some encounters take more individual skill than any 5-man). Or can not if you just don't wanna raid period, but slamming raiding cause you zerged UBRS with 15 is pointless.

[Ironwood]

No, you missed what I was saying.  Or I wasn't clear because I've had no sleep.  I go ZG raiding with my Guild and it's a lot of fun - When we can get the numbers.

That's really my point.  Raiding above a certain number really really really cuts down the audience figures of that raid, if you see what I mean.  The UBRS Vs BRD was simply to show that it's not about it 'getting better' as you hit 60, but mostly the other way about.  I swear to God, my heart swelled in pride when we reached the Black Forge.  We slaughtered everything with not a wipe and we were PROUD.  That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Whereas, killing the bloodlord in ZG was 'Stand here and press this occasionally'.  It wasn't exciting.  UBRS was even worse because I may as well have had a wank.  The bat lady in ZG and the Snake Boss man are a little better (particularly the bat) because of the involving content.  I can't comment on the rest because, well, we suck.

But when I watch my wife and her MC group, I literally want to cry.  Half of them are there for nothing more than the items and they're having NO FUN at all.  I don't get it.  Now, of course, I'm told that to continue in my profession, I HAVE TO DO THAT.  Hmm.

:)

(I'm really making no sense.  I haven't slept in, er, 48 hours now....)

[Modern Angel]

Making sense to me, Ironwood. I really wish that MC wasn't a neccessary step to do the other raids. It's no awful in my mind but not terribly good either. Pretty mediocre, sometimes boring. Unfortunately the FUN 40 man (BWL) requires MC first. Bleh.