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Author Topic: Heads up to raiders: out-of-combat rezzing nerfed, new bugs introduced  (Read 21905 times)
Jeff Kelly
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on: February 09, 2006, 06:42:01 AM

To all raiders out there. Patch 1.9.3 brought the introduction of a out-of-combat rezzing nerf in WoW. ooc rezzing should no longer be possible on bosses in Molten Core and other raid instances.

From the patch log:

Raid & Dungeons
- Molten Core:  It should now be very difficult to remain out of combat while fighting the bosses in Molten Core.

Well according to players on the official boards this has also led to a number of serious bugs and nerfs for several calss specifica talents and skills.

See this thread for details.

An excerpt:
"Using Hunters to pull and Feign Death if it goes wrong: BROKEN. Now the whole raid will die.

Player suiciding on an accidental or bad pull: BROKEN. Now the whole raid will die.

Rogues and Hunters escaping combat as their class skills specifically ALLOW, for example, when the raid begins to wipe: BROKEN. Now they get put back into combat immediately.

Warrior off-tanks using Charge to initiate their portion of the battle: BROKEN. Now they cannot use Charge after anyone else engages."

Hunters can not feign death a bad pull and if a hunter FDs during a wipe the boss will be evade bugged until the hunter stands up againg. If the hunter does stand up the boss will kill him. Same with rogues.

Also a boss will aggro across the whole instance so when you wipe on Golemagg and there are already players at the entrance he will run through the entire instance training all mobs on your unsuspecting players waiting for the port.
Merusk
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Reply #1 on: February 09, 2006, 06:45:51 AM

Yeah I wondered what was up with the whole "you are in combat" thing when I tried to charge a mob last night.   Looks like their "brilliant" idea to fix the combat-rezzing "problem" was a half-baked as any of SOE's back in EQ.   

"Hey guys, they're not playing the way we want.  They're holding folks back so they can rez in the middle instead of waiting on the 30 minute rezzes on the 3-4 druids they have."

"Well we can't have that.. let's just flag THE WHOLE RAID in-combat. Surely there won't be any side effects to that."

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Der Helm
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Reply #2 on: February 09, 2006, 07:19:00 AM

Also a boss will aggro across the whole instance so when you wipe on Golemagg and there are already players at the entrance he will run through the entire instance training all mobs on your unsuspecting players waiting for the port.
If find this idea oddly amusing :D

"I've been done enough around here..."- Signe
Calantus
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Reply #3 on: February 09, 2006, 08:52:34 AM

Rogues can die for all I care, wouldn't care about hunters if ours didn't buy expensive arrows all the time to help the raid DPS. The no charging, the one person wiping the whole raid due to accidental aggro, and the aggoring from across the instance sucks though. They should have done something like a trigger that disables the regular ressing abilities within the zone, or a zone-wide debuff or large-radius aura that stops those spells from working. Anything but just putting everything in combat.
Ironwood
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Reply #4 on: February 09, 2006, 09:10:01 AM

Rogues can die for all I care,

And, er, you know, Fuck You Too, and whatnot.

This is just another nail in the already 90% Metal coffin lid that is Rogues Vanish ability.

Ah well, my warrior is 56 now and I'm not really looking back...

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Phred
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Reply #5 on: February 09, 2006, 09:10:15 AM

It's been like this in BWL for the last few months. You get used to it.

Ironwood
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Reply #6 on: February 09, 2006, 09:15:44 AM

BWL is funny tho.  It's like watching a Special Needs school take a field trip to a minefield.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
HRose
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Reply #7 on: February 09, 2006, 09:31:42 AM

Rogues can die for all I care, wouldn't care about hunters if ours didn't buy expensive arrows all the time to help the raid DPS. The no charging, the one person wiping the whole raid due to accidental aggro, and the aggoring from across the instance sucks though. They should have done something like a trigger that disables the regular ressing abilities within the zone, or a zone-wide debuff or large-radius aura that stops those spells from working. Anything but just putting everything in combat.
Excuse me, but it wouldn't be SO MUCH SIMPLER to put in-combat the pally or druid after the first OOC res?

-HRose / Abalieno
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SurfD
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Reply #8 on: February 09, 2006, 10:20:01 AM

The whole idea is that you are not supposed to be able to escape combat with Bosses. And you are not supposed to be allowed to have one priest hang back and rez 2/3 of your raid as they die.  Bosses are battles of attrition, not zergfests where you get to keep bringing people back in.

Doesent matter if your class skill allows you to get away scott free while everyone else bites the repair bill. Sorry, but the bosses should be smart enough to "see through" your little tricks.

 I do aggree that it is rather dumb to flag EVERYONE, regardless of where they are in the zone, should combat with a boss begin.  of course, accidental boss aggro should reward the raid with a wipe (how the heck do you accidently aggro a boss anyhow?)

Maybe they could have some kind of "if boss is engaged" flag anyone who casts a beneficial spell on another character script?

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HaemishM
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Reply #9 on: February 09, 2006, 10:40:57 AM

Also a boss will aggro across the whole instance so when you wipe on Golemagg and there are already players at the entrance he will run through the entire instance training all mobs on your unsuspecting players waiting for the port.
If find this idea oddly amusing :D

Me too, but I'm a sadistic bastard. Especially when it makes raiders suffer.

Jayce
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Reply #10 on: February 09, 2006, 11:03:36 AM

of course, accidental boss aggro should reward the raid with a wipe (how the heck do you accidently aggro a boss anyhow?)

Maybe they could have some kind of "if boss is engaged" flag anyone who casts a beneficial spell on another character script?

The other night, it was getting late, and I drifted off and woke up with my fingers on the keys, running straight at Gehennas while the raid leader shouted in my ear over Ventrilo.  I guess I can't do that any more, lest I wipe the raid.

I agree with the second comment.  Isn't that how PvP flagging works?

Witty banter not included.
Modern Angel
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Reply #11 on: February 09, 2006, 11:04:17 AM

Rogues can die for all I care, wouldn't care about hunters if ours didn't buy expensive arrows all the time to help the raid DPS. The no charging, the one person wiping the whole raid due to accidental aggro, and the aggoring from across the instance sucks though. They should have done something like a trigger that disables the regular ressing abilities within the zone, or a zone-wide debuff or large-radius aura that stops those spells from working. Anything but just putting everything in combat.

HI GUYS I DO THIS REALLY TOUGH AND WHATNOT AND IF YOU DIDN'T GET YOUR CATASS ON TIME LIKE ME TOUGH BREAKS NOOBS.

Jesus, fuck you. I do the MC raiding grind and all that. We don't need OOC rezzing to do it but why in God's name would you advocate the ONLY THING TO DO TO ADVANCE YOUR CHARACTER AT 60 being harder? That's fucking retarded.
Ironwood
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Reply #12 on: February 09, 2006, 11:06:11 AM

Calantus is our special little WoW Raider Buddy.

If he raids enough he'll get a designer job on World of Starcraft.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
tazelbain
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Reply #13 on: February 09, 2006, 11:08:39 AM

That's fucking retarded.
If you "playing" WoW's raiding game, you are already have had heaping mounds of retardedness, what's another teaspoon?

"Me am play gods"
Rasix
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Reply #14 on: February 09, 2006, 11:18:39 AM

Calantus is our special little WoW Raider Buddy.

If he raids enough he'll get a designer job on World of Starcraft.

I called dibs first. First I've got to figure out how to become the guild mouthpiece and then write some really "kickass" ranter style updates.  Yes, my plans are finally coming to fruition.

Modern Angel, did you read anything he said or did you go from 0 to froth just based on poster name?

Yah, and these unintended changes suck.  Won't hurt the guild I'm in, but I feel for the people learning MC.  For us it's just faster pulls, a hunter that has to stay awake and the possibility of a overpull/adds/wipe due to someone not paying attention where they're walking.  OOC rezzing IMO needs to go (I thought the tactic is fucking cheesey and dislike when my guild does it), but it's been in game long enough that they need to take their time and figure out a better solution than the half assed bandaid they worked up.

Oddly enough though, I didn't notice any of this in BWL from Ebonroc to Nefarian last night.  I was able to stay OOC when I had to. Guess it's just MC.

-Rasix
Zane0
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Reply #15 on: February 09, 2006, 11:24:38 AM

The OOC Rezzing "fix" is good in principle- it could be used to trivialize several encounters, or to get through them with a raid that didn't have a real strategy or much experience.  The side-affects are not nice though; the sensitive pull at around Garr's room has much higher stakes now, I s'pose.

That said, a hunter can FD until everyone's dead and the mob is disengaged; that'll still work.  No luck for rogues however. 

Interestingly, we were able to rezz in some cases while people were engaged during a post-patch BWL clear.  I think there may be some holes.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2006, 11:26:24 AM by Zane0 »
Modern Angel
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Reply #16 on: February 09, 2006, 11:26:54 AM

No, I read what he said.

So here's the situation.

1) If you want to advance your character, you must raid at 60. That's fine. If I hated raiding I wouldn't play the game. I'm not married to ANY game.

2) WoW's raid game is honestly fairly accessible as far as MMOGs with raids go. Cool. So you can raid without being the uber catass guild. Mine certainly isn't.

So the more laid back guilds start raiding. They hit MC, might do Onyxia and they can do those things WITHOUT saying "no more than three rogues, more mages please, only two druids SORRY THAT YOU'VE BEEN IN THE GUILD SINCE DAY ONE YOU STAY HOME BECAUSE OF CLASS BALANCE."

So it's not the bye bye OOC that sets me off. It's that the bugs (if they are indeed bugs; let's not forget that Blizz has been silent thus far and the vanish/FD changes may be intentional) render rogues and hunters even more useless than they already were. The "casual-raiding" guilds, like mine, are fucked if they stay. That nice MC clear we did last weekend with nine rogues because that's what we had online? Thing of the past.

Anything that forces me from class balance lite into x of y sorry original member, you're useless pisses me off. And I feel really bad for those guilds that are just starting MC. The whole thing just changed.

Cue raider's argument of "Why are you going to MC now, noob?"
cevik
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Reply #17 on: February 09, 2006, 11:33:04 AM

Keeping in mind that I'm a non raider:

I don't understand how the changes affect Rogues and Hunters that much.  Hunters are still a ranged DPS class and Rogues are still a melee dps class.  You still need dps classes to damage the bosses fast enough to win.. right?

Were hunter ONLY FD pulling, and then that was it.. nothing else.. just sit out the rest of the fight?  And how does a rogue losing vanish affect them?  Were they using it to pull and vanishing in the case of a bad pull, or is there something I'm missing?  In the case of either of those things (rogues pulling and hunters pulling), I don't understand how that could affect MULTIPLE of the same class.  Don't you tend to have only 1 puller ever in the entire raid?

Are these changes really trivilizing the role of some classes to the degree that is being stated here?  Or are they something that we'll gnash our teeth about for around 12 hours before giving up and learning new ways to do these things that the developers never dreamed of?

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Rasix
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Reply #18 on: February 09, 2006, 11:36:34 AM

Quote from: Modern Angel
stuff

You're completely over-reacting to a flippant, insignificant, jokingly (I assume) made comment. 

Vanish is now kind of broken in Molten Core.  Yippee, skippy, think this somehow affects how many rogues we'll take? Yah, I'll pass up taking second place MC DPS, thus making the run slower. Because if Johnystabsalot wander off, he's going to die.  Take your meds.

-Rasix
Zane0
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Reply #19 on: February 09, 2006, 11:37:02 AM

No, nerfing Vanish / FD doesn't damage rogue or hunter viability in raids to any appreciable degree.  In the most extreme case, it's a couple more rezzes to do, and maybe a couple gold out of their pockets.
Calantus
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Reply #20 on: February 09, 2006, 11:41:50 AM

I never liked the OOC ressing personally. I didn't mind if other people used it, but whenever my raid used it I always felt like the strat was dirty. Like we were saying "we don't wanna figure out the fight, lets just ress people when they die due to our failures". That said, I never called for it to be removed, and I didn't mention even a hint of satisfaction at OOC being taken out. I didn't state my position on OOC at all infact because there's no point, we haven't used OOC since learning Baron so the removal of OOC ressing do not affect me at all.

What I did gloss over is that rogues can go ahead and incur the same repair costs as the rest of the raid for all I care. I would never have called for it to be taken away because I'm not petty enough to resent someone else spending less money in my raid than me just because of an ability they had, and I'm not cheering over it. What I am saying is that what rogues are dealing with is how it's been for 7/9 classes and they can now deal with it like we all have been. Hunters I have sympathy for because a lot of them spend an awful lot of money on arrows and I always saw their FD ability as a way of making up for that.

The only mildly offencive thing I said was rogues can die for all I care, the rest was all in sympathy for the annoying side effects the changes brought, so... yeah.

Also Modern angel, the changes to vanish and FD only affect your ability to avoid dying in the event of a wipe. Rogues and hunters can still wipe/reduce aggro (there's debate as to what it does, and I don't know for sure) with those abilities which is their main utility during the fight. All it means is you lose 1g on a wipe instead of getting out of it scott free. Does that suck for the rogue/hunter? I'm sure it does. Does it make them less effective or worthwhile to the raid? No. So your 9 rogue group will be just as effective as before. Maybe even moreso now that the rogues can go ahead and blow vanish during the fight instead of saving it incase you lose.


EDIT: So now I see where you misread me. When I said they can go ahead die I meant they can go ahead and die, literally, in the event of a wipe. And I was saying I would say the same for hunters but they spend money on arrows so they usually spent the same if not more than the rest of the raid during the average run even without dying. It wasn't meant in a "rgues can go to hell for all I care" kinda way.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2006, 11:48:33 AM by Calantus »
Merusk
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Reply #21 on: February 09, 2006, 11:43:54 AM

No, I read what he said. render rogues and hunters even more useless than they already were.

Pika Wha?

Hunters are as useless as Engineering. Stop reading the WoW boards, they're warping your brain.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Modern Angel
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Reply #22 on: February 09, 2006, 11:46:18 AM

It does because it slows... it... down... even... more.

A bad wipe with nine rogues who could previously vanish means nine more rezzes. Rez, drink, rez, drink, more time. We're already fragile enough in alot of raid situations.

And believe you me my invective would be toned down if I hadn't seen numerous Long Live King Raidtard posts from Calantus repeatedly.
Rasix
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Reply #23 on: February 09, 2006, 11:48:11 AM

Cry more, noob.

-Rasix
Calantus
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Reply #24 on: February 09, 2006, 11:51:39 AM

Well I've never understood people hating on rogues on raids anyway (beyond jokingly). They're the first people we go to when we want more DPS. Last raid we had was a ZG with 5 rogues.
Modern Angel
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Reply #25 on: February 09, 2006, 11:54:24 AM

I'll agree with that. I play a rogue and a warrior. As I've become more experienced in MC I die alot less. First several times in there? On my back constantly. I do think there are alot of bad rogues who still think crit gear is king in an aggro management situation.

I'm puzzled as to why, after this long after release, it had to be fixed RIGHT NOW without any public testing. It's dumb. What was so pressing about it that it couldn't wait until test realm time?
Modern Angel
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Reply #26 on: February 09, 2006, 11:56:04 AM

And I saw your edit, Cal. I understand now and we should never fight again. "They can die like everyone else" is not a silly raid munchkin comment.
Yegolev
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Reply #27 on: February 09, 2006, 12:01:58 PM

The descent into EQ Jr. continues.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
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Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Rasix
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Reply #28 on: February 09, 2006, 12:04:02 PM

The descent into EQ Jr. continues.

The knee-jerk bandaid fixes do give me a nasty case of deja vu. Maybe it's just a glitch in the matrix. 

-Rasix
Yegolev
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Reply #29 on: February 09, 2006, 12:05:42 PM

The descent into EQ Jr. continues.

The knee-jerk bandaid fixes do give me a nasty case of deja vu. Maybe it's just a glitch in the matrix. 

Glitch, my ass.  Replace a few nouns and you could be talking about Hate.  I smell Tigole.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Rasix
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Reply #30 on: February 09, 2006, 12:09:44 PM

Glitch, my ass.  Replace a few nouns and you could be talking about Hate.  I smell Tigole.

If there's ever a need for a "zone break-in", I think I'll track Tigole down and club him to death with my laptop.

-Rasix
Modern Angel
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Reply #31 on: February 09, 2006, 12:11:44 PM

All I know is that we're doing a mini-MC tonight to clear a few bosses so as to free up some time on Friday for Rags beating. I'm not looking forward to our first Garr at the entrance bug.
DarkDryad
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Reply #32 on: February 09, 2006, 12:19:10 PM

BWL is funny tho.  It's like watching a Special Needs school take a field trip to a minefield.

Oh holy hel I have found a sig!

BWL is funny tho.  It's like watching a Special Needs school take a field trip to a minefield.
Yegolev
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Reply #33 on: February 09, 2006, 12:28:11 PM

Glitch, my ass.  Replace a few nouns and you could be talking about Hate.  I smell Tigole.

If there's ever a need for a "zone break-in", I think I'll track Tigole down and club him to death with my laptop.

Just please remember these few posts next October/December.  You can convert my award to ISK and deliver to my EVE acct, thanks.

All I know is that we're doing a mini-MC tonight to clear a few bosses so as to free up some time on Friday for Rags beating. I'm not looking forward to our first Garr at the entrance bug.

It begins.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Modern Angel
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Reply #34 on: February 09, 2006, 12:35:56 PM

I have a long cancelled EVE account lying dormant. I'll gladly ship out some in game cash when and if Blizzard crosses that invisible line between fun and nnot fun for me.

It might be after I accidentally vanish and cause an evade bug tonight. We'll see.
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