Heads up to raiders: out-of-combat rezzing nerfed, new bugs introduced

[Yegolev]

I have a long cancelled EVE account lying dormant. I'll gladly ship out some in game cash when and if Blizzard crosses that invisible line between fun and nnot fun for me.

Not the rule, but I won't turn down ISK.

[Phred]

All I know is that we're doing a mini-MC tonight to clear a few bosses so as to free up some time on Friday for Rags beating. I'm not looking forward to our first Garr at the entrance bug.

You can still talk in /ra or /gu so if you wipe on Garr and have people waiting at zone in, tell them to zone the fuck out.

[Modern Angel]

And they'll certainly be told to walk out. But maybe not tonight or next week someone is going to zone while not paying attention and pull everything from Sulfuron on down to the door. And it's going to be awesome.

[Righ]

Out of interest, does a hunter doing an FD and drinking during a boss encounter cause an evade now? Did they apply these "fixes" across the board, thus making FD largely useless in the game? If a hunter does an FD in a raid group that includes other hunters, do all their traps break now, in the manner that FD breaks a hunter's own trap?

I'm going to guess it is that broken, since the hunter boards are offline.

[jpark]

BWL is funny tho.  It's like watching a Special Needs school take a field trip to a minefield.

hehe

[cevik]

Out of interest, does a hunter doing an FD and drinking during a boss encounter cause an evade now? Did they apply these "fixes" across the board, thus making FD largely useless in the game? If a hunter does an FD in a raid group that includes other hunters, do all their traps break now, in the manner that FD breaks a hunter's own trap?

I'm going to guess it is that broken, since the hunter boards are offline.

I know nothing about hunters, but none of the original complaints in the thread happened on my Sunken Temple run last night..

We had 2 tanks, the MT would charge and get aggro, then the MA would still be out of combat, charge, and call out the assist.  I have nurfed HUD, and until I assisted and cast my first DoT, it would still have me flagged as out of combat (nurfed goes from mostly transparent to solid when you get flagged in combat, so it's easy to tell)..

We also had been having the "still in combat" bug a lot recently (so that we had to wait for the next encounter until it finally, 30 secs to a min later allowed the tank to charge), but we didn't have it one single time last night.

So basically, in ST I tested these 2 things from the original post:

Player suiciding on an accidental or bad pull: BROKEN. Now the whole raid will die.
...
Warrior off-tanks using Charge to initiate their portion of the battle: BROKEN. Now they cannot use Charge after anyone else engages.

And neither of them happened.

Further.. I saw nothing that indicated I was flagged in combat in ST until *I* attacked, so I assume that at least the FD thing will not affect the rest of the game (i.e. a hunter gets a bad pull.. FDs.. the mobs return to their normal place because no one else is flagged).. But as far as aggro clearing from the hunter/rogue when they FD/vanish.. no idea.. we didn't have a hunter or a rogue, and I didn't have a way to test either.. :)

[SurfD]

I am still mystified as to why this has become such a big deal.  I mean, it ONLY effects boss fights.

The only way this should become a problem is if someone accidentally aggros a boss.
The only legitimate bug / irritation is the inability for any warrior after the first to charge to quickly pick up initial target.

Thats it.  All the other issues are nonfactors if your raidgroup is paying attention.  If someone trains Golemagg to the zoneline because of zone wide, they should be smacked for being afk while the rest of the raid was engaging a boss.

Not 100% sure, but if a Hunter or Rogue is the LAST person alive in the raid and pops their Out of Combat special, it should remove him from combat successfully (since there is no one else alive to keep the boss engaged).  Like I said, not sure tho.

The feighn evade bug would be because the hunter feighned to escape repair costs, and was put back into combat because the boss is still engaged.  The boss kills the rest of the stragglers, and then turns on the Hunter, who is now at the very bottom of his hate list, but cant attack him due to feighn "reporting" him as being dead, and so evades (target unreachable).

As to hunters / Rogues who used to Feighn / Vanish during long fights to eat/drink.  Suck it up.  Welcome to the game the rest of us have been playing since the servers went live.  To whoever said Hunters feighn was a balance against ammunition costs, I have to tell you that as a caster, Major Mana pots arent cheap.  Heck, the first thing i did when I realized that Hunters used bullets, and engineers make them, was to give my hunter toon Enginering / Mining.  Free ammo for the win.

Feighn / Vanish still wipes aggro, like it always has, you just get to die like a man (or woman) instead of playing possum / ninja smoke grenadeing your way to safety when the fight goes sour.

Maybe now people will actually pay attention to who has the Warlock Soulstones and Druids will become more valuable.

In the end, I still stand by the idea that you should NOT be able to be out of combat, in any form, during a boss fight.  These are BOSSES.  The big bad dudes of their lairs.  Realisticly speaking, the dude is not going to let you have a time out to eat/drink or ressurect someone (other then Battle Rez) while the fight goes on.  Sure, the AI isnt intelligent enough to realistically respond in an appropriate manner to prevent this, so such a bandaid patch was nessicary.  I mean, can you imagine how much fun it would be if they coded the mob AI to shout something like "HA, eating while your companions fight! For shame" and then 1 shot you if it detects you eating?  There are reasons pots / bandages and the like are in the game.

[HaemishM]

Glitch, my ass.  Replace a few nouns and you could be talking about Hate.  I smell Tigole.

If there's ever a need for a "zone break-in", I think I'll track Tigole down and club him to death with my laptop.

Shit, if there's ever a zone break-in with WoW, I'll join you to piss on his fucking still warm corpse afterwards.

[Righ]

If it's only invoked on boss encounters it's probably not a great tragedy. Of course if FD causes an evade on Onyxia, that could muck some folks up.

[SurfD]

Like i said in my previous post, the only way FD should be causing bosses to bug out is if they eventually get stuck attempting to attack a FD'd player (which wont happen unless everyone else is dead).   Unless there is something screwy with mob aggro management that I am not aware of, feighn should work exactly as it alway has to clear aggro, it just wont let you feighn in the middle of a fight-gone-bad in the hopes of escaping repair bills.

[Righ]

Apparently its mostly just bogus information. FD is working as expected according to other hunters I know. They can save repair bills by feigning in the midst of a raid wipeout and the bosses reset just fine, they can feign and drink mid-fight. The only apparent change is that all members of the raid get ticked onto the hate list when a boss is pulled, so FD of a crap pull doesn't save them. People are probably reporting client timing issues, which can surface at any time - statistically some folks will have noticed them for the first time in 1.9.3.

[Calantus]

If that's the case it's probably people who ran back, FD'd and then got back up again to watch the show. Of course they would have gotten aggro back, and they deserve it if they're gonna mess about like that. I also heard you can't feign and eat as the health will stop ticking once you get put into combat (when you get up). Drinking and using food that does both still works apparently, including restoring health in the case of double food. Vanish won't save you though, you'll get into combat again, stealth or not. Though I imagine if you were the LAST person and vanished it would probably reset the boss and you'd live.

[Descended]

Blizz forums blue response, via BluePlace here.

Executive summary: Working as intended.

[Modern Angel]

Cute.

No issues in MC last night which is about what I expected. I doubt it's going to change a ton of stuff for us except for the boss pulls. That bad pull of Shazzrah or Geddon into the Garr room? Bad news. Very bad news.

[Calantus]

We were doing the last pull before Vexenos in ZG and the priest feared one of our players all the way into the high priest. Nobody healed him but of course he aggroed us and came over. He killed 1/3 of us with his chain holy lightning thingy and then aggroed someone who was beyond his room. Hakkar did his yell and Vexinos evade bugged... permanently. So yea, we can't kill Hakkar now.

[Jayce]

Translation for the non-raiders:

We were doing the last pull before Vexenos [snake boss] in ZG and the [trash mob] priest feared one of our players all the way into the high priest [Venoxis]. Nobody healed him [because that would have put that individual into combat under the old system] but of course he [Venoxis] aggroed us and came over. He killed 1/3 of us with his chain holy lightning thingy [gains strength with each jump, can do like 40k damage or something] and then aggroed someone who was beyond his [Venoxis'] room. Hakkar did his yell [telling the bosses not to follow the players outside their room - resets the encounter] and Vexinos evade bugged... permanently [until the instance resets in three days]. So yea, we can't kill Hakkar now.

[Phred]

Instances go away a half hour after the last person leaves them, afaik. We had to use that to reset Nefarian in BWL when we lost at a bad time before the last patch fixed him. I can't see ZG working any differently.

[angry.bob]

After speaking with Tigole on the subject

That's all that needs said. Tigole's involved in mechanics of the game. Unless you like being puched to the ground and then punched in the back of the head while you beg to be assfucked, WoW is not for you. And by "you" I mean anyone who isn't a sadder waste of life than a child molester.

[Hoax]

I have a long cancelled EVE account lying dormant. I'll gladly ship out some in game cash when and if Blizzard crosses that invisible line between fun and nnot fun for me.

It might be after I accidentally vanish and cause an evade bug tonight. We'll see.

Well if you are under 2mil skillpoints you might as well come play with us now, so you can stay caught up.  Trust me, the devs at Blizzard have shown a complete inability to do anything other then go down the trail blazed by EQ.  Sure they made the 1-60 game polished and nice, but raiding is raiding and the suck will only increase.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is a diluted fool.

[Jayce]

I have a long cancelled EVE account lying dormant. I'll gladly ship out some in game cash when and if Blizzard crosses that invisible line between fun and nnot fun for me.

It might be after I accidentally vanish and cause an evade bug tonight. We'll see.

Well if you are under 2mil skillpoints you might as well come play with us now, so you can stay caught up.  Trust me, the devs at Blizzard have shown a complete inability to do anything other then go down the trail blazed by EQ.  Sure they made the 1-60 game polished and nice, but raiding is raiding and the suck will only increase.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is a diluted fool.

Can I please have the greif title of "diluted fool"??

That would make my day.

[Rasix]

Can I please have the greif title of "diluted fool"??

That would make my day.

If only I had the power.  What's your water-to-fool ratio at anyhow?

[Hoax]

I blame the spellchecker??   

[Jayce]

If only I had the power.  What's your water-to-fool ratio at anyhow?

Today, pretty diluted.  Other days the solution is stronger.

[Hoax]

[cartman] seriously screw you guys [/cartman]

[Calantus]

We waited 2 hours and it hadn't reset. It was fixed today though, so I imagine the GMs had to do something.

[bhodi]

I think it's a bunch of crap; they had a bug up their ass to stop OOC ressing and so they fixed something in the most simple way avaliable that didn't break the game into a million pieces. They have no problem inconvieniencing people by introducing functionality reductions to fix a issue.

I'd like to say they did it to slow down advancement and the grinding of their content, but the fact is that this only slows down the casual raider trying to make it all the way through MC in one day for the first time. The uber guilds don't mess up pulls and have every boss on farm status. It may increase the time it takes for them to beat AQ by a week or two, but after that it's of no concequence to them.

With all that said, as a rogue, I think this is a bunch of shit. It's pretty clear the devs don't like rogues, as we or our gear have been repeatedly nerfed in every single patch for the last 6 months. This is just more of the same. Really, in general it's better to take a DPS war than a rogue... especially if your tanks have tier 2 weapons to keep aggro.

There's a reason this is my sig on my guild's forums:
_________________
o <---- Blizz Dev
|\_o <---- Rogue
// \

[Ironwood]

I just don't play my Rogue anymore.  I play a Warrior.  56 now.

I can't say I disagree violently with what you say.

[Modern Angel]

Hence, levelling my mage now. Not that mages are teh ubar or anything but when my guild goes with a whopping four, thereby limiting our ranged damage on all those bosses that need it, well... yeah. Maybe it'll help with that Rags fight we just can't quite master.

[Righ]

How close are you in Rags, and what sort of fire resists are you up to? Once you've got an adequate FR on everybody, its just a matter of makng enough potions and getting the collapse right.

[bhodi]

We were greatly helped by the realization that is is impossible to pull aggro with ranged. By telling our ranged guys (hunters, mages, warlocks) to go all out, it made our 1st sons kill possible.

[SurfD]

With all that said, as a rogue, I think this is a bunch of shit. It's pretty clear the devs don't like rogues, as we or our gear have been repeatedly nerfed in every single patch for the last 6 months. This is just more of the same. Really, in general it's better to take a DPS war than a rogue... especially if your tanks have tier 2 weapons to keep aggro.

Sure, a DPS warrior may be able to do comaprable damage to a rogue (provided they have UBER weapons.  A rogue with comparably UBER weapons will still outdamage you).  However, Said DPS warrior has a major disadvantage. Inability to LOSE aggro once he accidently takes it.  Vanish can and does save raids in some fights, when the rogue accidently over aggros and turns a boss.  Rogues and hunters still excell at what they do best.  Deal very high damage with the ability to totally controll their aggro state.

[Modern Angel]

We got Rags down to... 29% this past weekend. Survived the first wave of sons sort of. Fact is that we're rogue heavy, very, very mage light. I'm pretty convinced that if we ditch a couple rogues for a couple more mages we can do it since ranged can go berserk. Collapse is getting better each time we do it, FR is where it needs to be.

Because we're not hardcore or anything we prize loyalty and longevity more than out and out class balance so there's not really anyone on the raiding rotation that we can tell to fuck off for another few mages. Hence me and another rogue levelling mages like mad. You get to a certain point where you want to see more content than get one more shiny for your class. So long as it's a class I enjoy (and I do enjoy mage) I could care less what I'm playing.

[bhodi]

Sure, a DPS warrior may be able to do comaprable damage to a rogue (provided they have UBER weapons.  A rogue with comparably UBER weapons will still outdamage you).  However, Said DPS warrior has a major disadvantage. Inability to LOSE aggro once he accidently takes it.  Vanish can and does save raids in some fights, when the rogue accidently over aggros and turns a boss.  Rogues and hunters still excell at what they do best.  Deal very high damage with the ability to totally controll their aggro state.

I am talking about end-game instances; MC, BWL, AQ.  With tier2 weapons (ones from rag/bwl), a warrior will outdamage a rogue. Admittedly a lot is becuase of execute and multiple mobs, but It's been calculated numerous times and is the root of the rogue's plight. The fact is most people are willing to trade a little less damage for the ability to actually take a few hits and the occasional cleave, not to mention stand-in tanks for mobs like vael that chew through 6+ warriors.

The thing about the end game is that the one rogue skill, the ability to shed aggro, is quickly becoming worthless. In the end-game, gaining aggro is quickly self-correcting (read: you die instantly). With a competent tank, you can snap the mob back and keep it long enough for the dps to throttle back. Shedding aggro is important, it's true, but it is becoming less so with every new instance they release. When even trash mobs do 4k/hit to rogues but only 2.5k/hit to warriors, the ability to call them in to do off tanking, and enough hit points to last long enough to actually get healed before they die, warriors are quickly becoming the clear choice.

Or you can go with hunters. They come equipped with a free epic weapon (the wonderful bow of the ancient keepers) so they don't have to fight over weapons with other classes. They get to "vanish" every 30 seconds instead of 5m, do pretty much the same damage, and don't have to stand in melee to eat aoe and cleaves.

Let's not forget both of them have abilities that help others in the party, battleshout and trueshot aura. Rogues help none but themselves.

My guild prefers to field 5 of each class, however, recently it's become 6 wars and 4 rogues. Recently it was 6 wars 6 hunters and 3 rogues, and people seemed to like it more because of the flexibility. We're being pushed out.

[Ironwood]

OH JESUS HELP ME, I CANNOT DISAGREE WITH ANYTHING HE SAID.

Yup.  You're right.

I cannot for the life of me understand WHY high end raid groups take rogues instead of hunters, mages, or, in fact, any other class.  And I AM a Rogue.

We're pointless.  The only thing that we're good for is making the priests giggle during the raid by watching how quickly they go down.

[Modern Angel]

When I do a /who at night to see what people are up to I see our catass guilds taking three rogues into their raids, no more.