I was (mostly) wrong. Enhancement Diversification

[dEOS]

Pickup groups have been hit hard... by making the holy trinity (tank+healer+dmg dealer) necessary to let a team function.

This is utter nonsense.  There's no need for a tank+healer+dmg dealer to have an effective team in CoH, even post-ED.
Also, my Energy/Fire Tank has been my most effective character in PvP. 

Been playing almost all tanks except for Stone. My Ice tank in its 18s NEEDs a pocket healer. There is no way DO can make my ice armors worth it against +1-+2 in a 8 people team setting. That's assuming that you are playing to make at least decent XP progress.

Good thing for my Ice tank is that PvP zone auto-level system and buffs seem to make him über defense-wise :) Not sure this is intended but it's fun to be standing in the doorway of BloodyBay enemy base and waiting for them to attempt to come out :)

I'll take a look to my controller. She was clearly overpowered with her perma-PA and Phanstam(s). She's probably more interesting to play.

I have been spending all my time in CoV since it came live. Infamy shortage but all good. The newspaper system simply rocks: getting missions that do not send you 3 zones away is just a blessing.

[Valmorian]

Been playing almost all tanks except for Stone. My Ice tank in its 18s NEEDs a pocket healer. There is no way DO can make my ice armors worth it against +1-+2 in a 8 people team setting. That's assuming that you are playing to make at least decent XP progress.

I haven't found this to be true with any of my tanks.  Of course a healer is going to improve your experience gain rate.  Duh.  Things would be broken if it didn't.  Whether you consider the XP gain rate without a healer acceptable or not is a matter of taste, of course, but you certainly do NOT NEED the "holy trinity" in order to group in CoH post ED.


This is the problem with this sort of hype.  I've found that when people say "The game is impossible now without x, y and z in my team." what they REALLY mean is "I don't like the rate of XP gain when I don't have x, y and z in my team."

[Alkiera]

Been playing almost all tanks except for Stone. My Ice tank in its 18s NEEDs a pocket healer. There is no way DO can make my ice armors worth it against +1-+2 in a 8 people team setting. That's assuming that you are playing to make at least decent XP progress.

I haven't found this to be true with any of my tanks.  Of course a healer is going to improve your experience gain rate.  Duh.  Things would be broken if it didn't.  Whether you consider the XP gain rate without a healer acceptable or not is a matter of taste, of course, but you certainly do NOT NEED the "holy trinity" in order to group in CoH post ED.

Ice tanks probably have the same issue SR scrappers do... that until 22 and SOs, their defensive powers are just short of useless.  After SOs, things are somewhat better.

This is the problem with this sort of hype.  I've found that when people say "The game is impossible now without x, y and z in my team." what they REALLY mean is "I don't like the rate of XP gain when I don't have x, y and z in my team."

Yeah, with CoH, that is an accurate translation.  In other, more EQ-like games, it really can be impossible to complete certain goals without the trinity.  Devs balance to make it interesting under the 'ideal' case for the players... and thus it's nigh impossible without that ideal group.

Alkiera

[Hoax]

Is it not an established rule on these boards though that the only grind acceptable to the vast majority of players will be the one with the optimal xp to time ratio?

I'm going to pass on picking up CoV, I just dont think I'd make it to the base endgame, even though it sounds cool, and I dont think I have time for a guild which is required for said endgame.

[Valmorian]

Is it not an established rule on these boards though that the only grind acceptable to the vast majority of players will be the one with the optimal xp to time ratio?

If that's the case, then we have a problem, because you're stuck with two hard choices:

1. The optimal XP gain can be obtained with a solo player, and adding additional players doesn't increase this rate.  So why invite players to your group?
2. The optimal XP gain requires you to group with other players.  In which case you get people complaining that they are FORCED to group.

Every AT SHOULD contribute to the group in some fashion, and I'd be disappointed if a group that has a healer/defender+damage dealer+tank/control did NOT increase the XP gain.  That a group of all defenders, or all tanks, etc.. can still be successful (albeit less so) is a bonus.

[dEOS]

Been playing almost all tanks except for Stone. My Ice tank in its 18s NEEDs a pocket healer. There is no way DO can make my ice armors worth it against +1-+2 in a 8 people team setting. That's assuming that you are playing to make at least decent XP progress.

I haven't found this to be true with any of my tanks.  Of course a healer is going to improve your experience gain rate.  Duh.  Things would be broken if it didn't.  Whether you consider the XP gain rate without a healer acceptable or not is a matter of taste, of course, but you certainly do NOT NEED the "holy trinity" in order to group in CoH post ED.


This is the problem with this sort of hype.  I've found that when people say "The game is impossible now without x, y and z in my team." what they REALLY mean is "I don't like the rate of XP gain when I don't have x, y and z in my team."

My thoughts were:
- I need a healer for my Ice tanker on a team setting
- That is in the case of a team fighting yellow+... fighting blues/greens is never a problem for my ice tanker but as soon as I see red mobs (especially bosses), I have to make sure that the healer is at the keyboard or we have a faceplant of my tanker in a dozens of seconds if I am not lucky (and that seems to be the case a lot).

For info, my armors are slotted 5 defense DO + 1 endredux (toon created before ED). Reslotting is in order at 22 (and SOs) to go for 3 def + 1 endredux.

[dEOS]

Is it not an established rule on these boards though that the only grind acceptable to the vast majority of players will be the one with the optimal xp to time ratio?

If that's the case, then we have a problem, because you're stuck with two hard choices:

1. The optimal XP gain can be obtained with a solo player, and adding additional players doesn't increase this rate.  So why invite players to your group?
2. The optimal XP gain requires you to group with other players.  In which case you get people complaining that they are FORCED to group.

Every AT SHOULD contribute to the group in some fashion, and I'd be disappointed if a group that has a healer/defender+damage dealer+tank/control did NOT increase the XP gain.  That a group of all defenders, or all tanks, etc.. can still be successful (albeit less so) is a bonus.

1. Better synergy & Fun.
2. Even before I preferred to group, more mobs == more fun. I am worried about being forced in a certain team constitution format. CoH and CoV are still way above the competition in loose requirements about team members though. Lots of ATs have overlapping capabilities. That's a really good thing but that was already the case before. Some tank ATs needed a nerf because they were truly overpowered (as in tanking 40+ mobs and not see their health bar go below 90%). Except that ED wasn't really targetted at specific types but to everyone. My dark/dark defender for instance was doing crap damage when solo, it's even worse now.

I am very concerned about XP progression at some points in the leveling curve of CoH.
12-20 CoH : not fun at all, you are basically taking travel powers + fitness line => the faster you are out of here, the better.
35+: Slloooooowwww leveling. Doing a mission and having hardly 3/4 of a bubble for it is painful. Moreover when you have to travel from mission to contact and to next mission... when that contact is in FF or somewhere really remote, this is uselessly painful. You spend more time doing travel & zoning than killing mobs and we are talking CoH were travelling is super fast. Hopefully the addition of newspapers missions (missions in the same zone you are in) in CoH will solve that problem nicely. If it's remotely like CoV newspapers mission, it will rock.

I play CoH for a reason though (after this much complaining): It's the MMORPG that has the best casual player tolerance (1-2h sessions are worth it). Coming from AC2, that's a relief.

My biggest gripe of ED is that they didn't fix the need for Stamina once and for all.

[ClydeJr]

Moreover when you have to travel from mission to contact and to next mission... when that contact is in FF or somewhere really remote, this is uselessly painful. You spend more time doing travel & zoning than killing mobs and we are talking CoH were travelling is super fast. Hopefully the addition of newspapers missions (missions in the same zone you are in) in CoH will solve that problem nicely. If it's remotely like CoV newspapers mission, it will rock.

I agree. Newspaper missions are a great addition to CoV, especially below level 14 when you don't have a travel power. It also seems that when you do get a contact from a broker, the new contact will give you their phone number a lot sooner than in CoH. It seemed like I would have to do 6+ missions to be able to call a contact in CoH. It seems like you only have to do 2 before you can call contacts in CoV.

[Valmorian]

1. Better synergy & Fun.

In which case "optimal experience gain" wasn't the goal, and then there's no argument.

2. Even before I preferred to group, more mobs == more fun. I am worried about being forced in a certain team constitution format.

You _aren't_ forced to any team constitution format.  If you don't like the rate of XP gain when you don't have your "holy trinity", then that's not the game's issue, it's yours.

I am very concerned about XP progression at some points in the leveling curve of CoH.
12-20 CoH : not fun at all, you are basically taking travel powers + fitness line => the faster you are out of here, the better.

Of all of my characters, I've only taken the fitness line on one of them, and only then because it fit the character concept.   I usually DO take a travel power at 14, but that's about it for what I'm "forced" to take.  Even that isn't truly necessary.  It's a quality of life power, not an essential, no matter how much people insist otherwise.

35+: Slloooooowwww leveling. Doing a mission and having hardly 3/4 of a bubble for it is painful.

I have no problem with that rate of progression.  If you're playing this game to level, you're missing the point. 

My biggest gripe of ED is that they didn't fix the need for Stamina once and for all.

That's funny, I've never NEEDED Stamina on any of my characters, even the most END-Intensive ones.

[Llava]

For info, my armors are slotted 5 defense DO + 1 endredux (toon created before ED). Reslotting is in order at 22 (and SOs) to go for 3 def + 1 endredux.

You're using Chilling Embrace, right?

And, in fairness, just you don't need a "healer" to help you with tanking.  Force Fields stack well with Ice Armor, pushing your defense through the roof.  Dark Miasma and Radiation's accuracy debuffs also stack nicely with your armor.  Another Tanker can lighten your load by quite a bit.  A Controller can do the same.

But no, I wouldn't recommend that you head into an Invincible difficulty mission with you and 7 Blasters.

[dEOS]

You're using Chilling Embrace, right?

I am but it doesn't cover all the mobs especially those that like to stay at range and shoot. It generally takes some time to round the whole mob so that I have ranged ones in my CE.

And, in fairness, just you don't need a "healer" to help you with tanking.  Force Fields stack well with Ice Armor, pushing your defense through the roof.  Dark Miasma and Radiation's accuracy debuffs also stack nicely with your armor.  Another Tanker can lighten your load by quite a bit.  A Controller can do the same.

FF is the only "set" to really help with Defense. Rad/Dark accuracy debuffs are the last one to be casted as they are the one that benefit tanks the less and for some reason, they are painfully long to cast and refresh (you know the insta-kills of anchors). I am guilty of this as well on both my Ill/Rad controller and Dark/Dark defender.

When I say benefitting the less, I mean that only one tank set is based entirely on defense. One out of 4. FF are a rare breed or they develop lots of friends and so are rarely available for PUG :)

But no, I wouldn't recommend that you head into an Invincible difficulty mission with you and 7 Blasters.

Eek.

[Typhon]

I have no problem with that rate of progression.  If you're playing this game to level, you're missing the point. 

Get off the crack, the game is hugely repetitious.  That it also has a slow leveling curve, one beeelion AV missions (read: mobs with too many hitpoints) and nothing significant in terms of character development options in the post lvl 38 game is just wrong.

It's strong points are super hero/villain characters, short missions, and immerse travel powers.  period.  They got the base powersets mostly wrong, the non-travel pool powers completely wrong, the enhancements chronically wrong, and the villain npc's only occasionally inspired.  They added one new level that was really good (Stryga), and no new powersets that are interesting in any way (sonics doesn't seem to have any graphical difference besides size, and a sound effect sampling that is pure abortion).

It's good enough to keep playing because it doesn't require a large investment in time and everything else sucks.  Take that "the player is broken" crap and shove it.

[tazelbain]

*golf clap*

[Hoax]

Thank you Typhon I was back on the verge of buying this, you have saved me from wasting 50+ dollars.  I salute you good sir, grinds suck ass.

[Glazius]

They got the base powersets mostly wrong, the non-travel pool powers completely wrong, the enhancements chronically wrong, and the villain npc's only occasionally inspired.

Just a question here - how would they get the base powersets 'right'?

The customizability of Freedom Force, say? Where you could solo the game on a 3000-point character if you knew what build to take?

--GF

[Typhon]

The customizability of Freedom Force, say? Where you could solo the game on a 3000-point character if you knew what build to take?

--GF

Almost every powerset has powers that are worthless, or they have been made worthless over time (as I play a fire tank, "Temperature Protection" and "Burn" come to mind immediately).  Yes, every mmo seems to have this problem and CoH is no different.  They should work on it.  When the vast majority of tweaking has been to make powers weaker/more situational it decreases my satisfaction with my hero and that powerset.  Ok, they've decreased over-all power levels, now is the time to increase functioning of under-performing powers (ideally giving broader range to powersets).

The 'feel' of using many powersets is inconsistent - energy blast is great, super strength is great, sonics blows.

The way they made level 32 powers situational is not satisfying.  Don't make the player pick an 'oh shit' power, if they want them in the game they should have given that type of power.  Put conditions for use similar to Blasters "Defiance" or Defenders "Vigilance" - example: Nova power is given to Energy/* blasters are char creation, but the power does not become activatable until after lvl 32 (or whatever), the blaster's team is below 50% health, and the blaster is randomly selected as the team member who's "oh shit" power activates.  With all these pre-conditions, Nova can now be truly devastating (larger AE, more powerful effect) without being imbalanced and maintains the "comic booky" feel.

Knockback as a side effect should be more prevalent throughout powersets (almost ever comic book hero knocks someone back at some point) and not limited to a few sets.  I would have loved it if you could hold down on the power button longer to build up the power of a blow (and  use more end in the process), which would give an increased chance for knockback.

Hero's should not be sniping.

The prevalence and power of AE effects that made herding a most efficient way to do combat is broken (how about making targetable AE powers very end expensive and non-aura pbaoe powers be less damaging, and more focused on secondary effects (which they mostly have)).

In all fairness it's seems like they are moving to some of those same conclusions, the game is getting better, albeit slowly.  Hopefully they will focus more on new content and maybe reworking some of the powersets (Energy blast sounds and looks beefy.  Fire looks and sounds anemic, Electricity now looks pretty good, but still sounds weak)

But really, these are all just my opinions.  I'm not a dev, I just play the game.  I very well may be in the minority position when it comes to judging "fun" in CoH.  Which is why I read forums, to get other viewpoints.

My previous post wasn't really about CoH/CoV, it was about having a conversation in a web forum.  I come to f13 because folks usually try to at least consider someone else's viewpoint when responding to a post.  Usually responses aren't some variation of "you must be playing it wrong", but lean more toward, "I must be special cause it never really bugged me".  The 'everyone else is wrong' sort of posting is what the official boards are for... IMO.

When I see someone posting with that sort of attitude here it just annoys the hell out of me - if you've made your mind up already that anyone who's going to disagree with you is wrong, or anyone who has a game experience contrary to your game experience is wrong, why are you having a discussion?

[Hoax]

The thing I've never understood about CoH (having never played it) is don't all heros end up fairly similar?  At 50 it seems like you can pick every power you want, unless you really took a ton of the travel/fitness type powers.  But even then you end up with almost every power available in your primary and secondary set right?

It would seem like the difference between one Dark/Dark Scrapper and the next is only costume deep, in terms of their attacks or am I missing something?

Fixing that would be the point of the Enhancement change I figure, but it doesn't sound like it works because everyone seems to automatically know in this thread what to re-slot to.  Again never played, so just talking out my ass.

[Trippy]

Almost every powerset has powers that are worthless, or they have been made worthless over time (as I play a fire tank, "Temperature Protection" and "Burn" come to mind immediately).  Yes, every mmo seems to have this problem and CoH is no different.  They should work on it.

I actually consider "useless" powers a good thing since I need to take Power Pool powers to make my game play more enjoyable though I suppose that statement is more an indictment of the general game design than an endorsement. Hasten is, of course, de rigour given how slow combat is in the game. Stamina was a requirement but not so much anymore given the change to Rest and the global Endurance reduction in I6. I consider some form of Invisibility a requirement as well given how much time you can save in certain missions if you have it. Recall Friend is mandatory for grouping (especially for TFs) given how slow some people zone and travel and how much time you can save with it (in conjunction with Invisibility) by skipping over mind-numbingly repetitive content. And now with PvP things like Tactics (for +Perception) and some form of Invisibility are requirements as well unless you enjoy being killed by coordinated packs of Stalkers before you can even get in one attack.

[Trippy]

The thing I've never understood about CoH (having never played it) is don't all heros end up fairly similar?  At 50 it seems like you can pick every power you want, unless you really took a ton of the travel/fitness type powers.  But even then you end up with almost every power available in your primary and secondary set right?

It would seem like the difference between one Dark/Dark Scrapper and the next is only costume deep, in terms of their attacks or am I missing something?

Each power set has 9 powers and when the game only had 40 levels each character had 20 power slots so you had enough power slots to pick all your primary and secondary Power Set powers and a travel power (which requires you to pick something else from that Power Pool first). I believe that was how the designers originally envisoned most people would setup their characters and I vaguely remember Statesman responding to critics complaining during Beta about how "cookie cutter" all the heroes would be given the above setup by saying Enhancements were the mechanism by which players would "customize" their heroes. People figured out, though, that many of the common Power Pool powers were very very powerful (e.g. Hasten and Stamina) and so if you were trying to min/max you would need to skip over some of your primary and secondary powers so that you could pickup the requisite Power Pool powers. Also, as Typhoon mentioned above, some Power Set powers are pretty blah and are skipped over by players "in the know". When they increased the level cap to 50 they added 4 more power slots but they also added Epic Power Pools for each AT (each with 4 powers) and you still have the problem of deciding what powers to skip over if you want to take more than just a travel power from the Power Pools. So given that for many Power Set combos there are more useful powers to pick from than slots available not all players with the same Power Set combo will look alike, though with all the Power Pool nerfing that's been going on lately I think there's probably less power diversity than there used to be.

Fixing that would be the point of the Enhancement change I figure, but it doesn't sound like it works because everyone seems to automatically know in this thread what to re-slot to.  Again never played, so just talking out my ass.

I believe that was original vision by Statesman as I mentioned above but of course the min/maxers figured out the best ways to slot every power and the ED doesn't really change that.

[Valmorian]

Get off the crack, the game is hugely repetitious.

Who said it wasn't?  Certainly not I.  There's a long and venerable history of repetative video games which are considered fun.  If you don't like it, don't play it.

  That it also has a slow leveling curve, one beeelion AV missions (read: mobs with too many hitpoints) and nothing significant in terms of character development options in the post lvl 38 game is just wrong.

No, it's not "just wrong".  It's something you don't like.  BIG difference.  Personally, I'm not concerned with how long the leveling curve is because I'm not trying to GET anywhere in the game.  I enjoy it for what it is, a superhero combat simulator.

It's strong points are super hero/villain characters, short missions, and immerse travel powers.  period.  They got the base powersets mostly wrong, the non-travel pool powers completely wrong, the enhancements chronically wrong, and the villain npc's only occasionally inspired.  They added one new level that was really good (Stryga), and no new powersets that are interesting in any way (sonics doesn't seem to have any graphical difference besides size, and a sound effect sampling that is pure abortion).

I see.  Did you get this from the "big book of how superhero games SHOULD be."?  I have few problems with any of what you've said.  There's dozens more playing that also see no real issues. 

Basically, all you've said so far is a grandiose "I don't like it" and claimed that this makes it objectively bad.  Forgive me if I'm unimpressed.

It's good enough to keep playing because it doesn't require a large investment in time and everything else sucks.  Take that "the player is broken" crap and shove it.

Never said the player was broken.  You don't like some things about the game, I understand that.  But, so what?  You can get together people who say the same things about ANY game.

I like City of Heroes because I enjoy the gameplay, repetative though it may be. 

[Llava]

I believe that was original vision by Statesman as I mentioned above but of course the min/maxers figured out the best ways to slot every power and the ED doesn't really change that.

Eh.  For most powers it didn't change it.  For some it did.  Mostly utility powers.  But attacks, yes, generally 3 damage, 1 accuracy, 2 recharge or endurance reducers, depending on what your character needs more.

The thing I've never understood about CoH (having never played it) is don't all heros end up fairly similar?  At 50 it seems like you can pick every power you want, unless you really took a ton of the travel/fitness type powers.  But even then you end up with almost every power available in your primary and secondary set right?

No.  Warshades and Peacebringers especially do not experience this, as they have many more powers in their primaries and secondaries than do other heroes, but don't get more opportunities to gain new powers.  I can throw out a few examples right now- My Dark/Dark Scrapper doesn't have the final attack in Dark Melee, Midnight Grasp (generally considered a pretty good power) because I don't like it and I don't think it's that good.  Instead, he uses Shadow Punch (med damage, quick recharge), Air Superiority (pool power, med damage quick recharge), Boxing (pool power, less damage than Shadow Punch or AS but better recharge), Smite (heavy damage, slightly longer recharge) and just keeps up a constant stream of punching the shit out of whatever he's fighting.  And if I've gone through all the attacks and I have a second or two to wait until one of them recharges, which is rare but can happen, I use Shadow Maul (which basically means I punch 4 or 5 times, the animation takes about 2 or 3 seconds to do and the damage is better than Smite, but I believe doing the math will show that constantly using it slows damage over time... that's what it felt like for me anyways).

With that very same character, I play my secondary set (Dark Armor) almost completely differently than anyone else.  A while ago, it was commonly understood that Cloak of Fear and Cloak of Darkness were necessary powers for a /dark Scrapper.  Cloak of Fear would put a Fear effect on all nearby enemies and debuff their accuracy, Cloak of Darkness would give the character Stealth and a Defense bonus.  Stacking the two made enemies miss frequently, and sometimes would stop them from attacking at all (due to the fear effect).  Others like to use Oppressive Gloom, which disorients nearby enemies at the cost of some minor damage to the player.  I, however, liked to just use my normal shields to lower some of the incoming damage and use Dark Regeneration to heal myself whenever I needed it (basically, it does miniscule damage to everything around me and, for each target it hits, heals me for a large amount... about 1/3rd my max health for each hit target, so 3 hits is pretty much a full heal).  I used Dark Consumption from my primary to do the same with my endurance (works same as Dark Regeneration, but with endurance- much longer recharge, but it was up as often as I needed it).  This gave me kind of an Energizer Bunny feel- I didn't ever really need to stop and rest, because whenever I needed one of these two powers I would almost always have it available.  This longevity, however, came at the cost of safety, since a focused assault could still take me down quickly before I had much chance to heal up.

A friend of mine plays a Dark/Psionic Defender.  At level 32, Dark Defenders can take "Dark Servant" and most everyone does.  This is akin to summoning another mini Dark Defender to help you do your job.  She's not avoiding it for RP reasons, she just doesn't feel it's particularly useful.  Others do.

Now, if you stick to the "common knowledge" about what powers are good and what powers suck, yes, you'll be cookie cutter.  Big surprise there.  But given a little creativity and knowledge of the power selection available to you, you'd be surprised how tactics can vary from one user of a given set to another.  The aforementioned Dark/Dark Scrapper plays nothing like most of the other Dark/Dark Scrappers out there.

The prevalence and power of AE effects that made herding a most efficient way to do combat is broken (how about making targetable AE powers very end expensive and non-aura pbaoe powers be less damaging, and more focused on secondary effects (which they mostly have)).

Uh.  They did that.  It was called Enhancement Diversification.

They added one new level that was really good (Stryga), and no new powersets that are interesting in any way (sonics doesn't seem to have any graphical difference besides size, and a sound effect sampling that is pure abortion)

Okay.  I can agree that the Shadow Shard pretty much sucks.  It was creative, but it's not fun to play in and mostly just good eye candy.  But Croatoa?  Hello?  I LOVED that fucking zone.  Bloody Bay and Warburg are fantastic too.  I haven't been to Siren's Call yet.  Then there are all the CoV zones, but I won't count those because they're not free content.

I love my Sonic Blaster.  Your opinions about the Sonic Blast power set are just that- opinions.  Ultimately not constructive in a discussion like this, because you have nothing to back it up or nothing to specifically point at and say "There, that, it needs changing."  Gut feeling does not good game design make.  The only things I'd change about Sonic would be to up the damage on Howl a bit (but it may be intentionally low, due to the utility of having a cone Resist Debuff) and either swap out Shockwave for something else, or up its damage too.  Siren's Song is surprisingly useful, even as a Blaster.  Really helps me solo when I can put the whole group to sleep first, then beat them down one by one.

Fire looks and sounds anemic,

I disagree.  I don't know how much more you expect than a giant fireball that explodes violently with a huge BOOM.  I'm quite satisfied with Fire effects.

Almost every powerset has powers that are worthless, or they have been made worthless over time (as I play a fire tank, "Temperature Protection" and "Burn" come to mind immediately).  Yes, every mmo seems to have this problem and CoH is no different.  They should work on it.

I can halfway agree with there.  There are some powers that just aren't any good.  But most sets don't have powers that are "worthless", just "not worth it."  Generally, you can pick up something if you want it, and it'll probably work well.  But there's frequently a better choice out there, and of course if it goes to 10 then 9 is worthless to a player.

Who said it wasn't?  Certainly not I.  There's a long and venerable history of repetative video games which are considered fun.  If you don't like it, don't play it.

Tetris.

I'm also mostly happy with the rate of progression in the game.  Of course faster would be nicer, but I'm not pulling out my hair waiting for the next level.  I do wish that lower levels progressed faster, though, as these are the least fun (few power options, no travel powers to get from one place to another, crappy enhancements meaning frequent misses).

[Typhon]

(Typhon states his opinions like fact)

No, it's not "just wrong".  It's something you don't like.  BIG difference.  Personally, I'm not concerned with how long the leveling curve is because I'm not trying to GET anywhere in the game.  I enjoy it for what it is, a superhero combat simulator.

(Typhon states his opinions like fact)

I see.  Did you get this from the "big book of how superhero games SHOULD be."?  I have few problems with any of what you've said.  There's dozens more playing that also see no real issues. 

Basically, all you've said so far is a grandiose "I don't like it" and claimed that this makes it objectively bad.  Forgive me if I'm unimpressed.

(Typhon acts like a jerk)

Never said the player was broken.  You don't like some things about the game, I understand that.  But, so what?  You can get together people who say the same things about ANY game.

From my previous post, further on.

But really, these are all just my opinions.  I'm not a dev, I just play the game.  I very well may be in the minority position when it comes to judging "fun" in CoH.  Which is why I read forums, to get other viewpoints.

My previous post wasn't really about CoH/CoV, it was about having a conversation in a web forum.  I come to f13 because folks usually try to at least consider someone else's viewpoint when responding to a post.  Usually responses aren't some variation of "you must be playing it wrong", but lean more toward, "I must be special cause it never really bugged me".  The 'everyone else is wrong' sort of posting is what the official boards are for... IMO.

I read your previous posts as being dismissive of anyone else's viewpoint or some attempt to disprove the "stamina/hasten is necessary" cannon, simply because you don't mind playing a slower game, seemingly without any sort of effort to understand where the other players were coming from.  I took this to be fanboism at it's most annoying.

If that was not where you were coming from, my apologies for being so aggressive.

[Glazius]

Fire looks and sounds anemic,

I disagree.  I don't know how much more you expect than a giant fireball that explodes violently with a huge BOOM.  I'm quite satisfied with Fire effects.

How about a giant fireball that explodes with a huge BOOM and flings off sparks of varying sizes, the larger of which take several seconds to burn out and leave a char mark on the terrain, which slowly fades?

'cause if you turn on particle physics, that's what you get.

--GF

[Llava]

I read your previous posts as being dismissive of anyone else's viewpoint

I generally read statements that open with "get off the crack" as being fairly dismissive as well.

[Typhon]

I love my Sonic Blaster.  Your opinions about the Sonic Blast power set are just that- opinions.  Ultimately not constructive in a discussion like this, because you have nothing to back it up or nothing to specifically point at and say "There, that, it needs changing."  Gut feeling does not good game design make.  The only things I'd change about Sonic would be to up the damage on Howl a bit (but it may be intentionally low, due to the utility of having a cone Resist Debuff) and either swap out Shockwave for something else, or up its damage too.  Siren's Song is surprisingly useful, even as a Blaster.  Really helps me solo when I can put the whole group to sleep first, then beat them down one by one.

Fire looks and sounds anemic,

I disagree.  I don't know how much more you expect than a giant fireball that explodes violently with a huge BOOM.  I'm quite satisfied with Fire effects.

I have a Sonic's Corrupter, I don't have a problem with the power of the line, but the graphics and sounds seem uninspired.  If it sounded even vaguely like some sort of voice/scream I'd be happy.

For the fire blaster the fireball is good, but the first two blasts are nothing compared to the first two in the energy line, which definitely have an "oomph" to them.  And this is where I disagree with you on the "feelings have place in game design", which I read to be "game creation" (course, if you really mean "game design" then I don't disagree).  When they put together the energy line you know they had to be grinning at each other, regardless of how much damage it pushes, it just feels massive.

I generally read statements that open with "get off the crack" as being fairly dismissive as well.

Agreed.  I'll try to stop being a jerkoff just because I dislike someone's tone.

[Signe]

I read your previous posts as being dismissive of anyone else's viewpoint

I generally read statements that open with "get off the crack" as being fairly dismissive as well.

Except that you really should get off the crack, Llarva, old son.   

[Llava]

I have a Sonic's Corrupter, I don't have a problem with the power of the line, but the graphics and sounds seem uninspired.  If it sounded even vaguely like some sort of voice/scream I'd be happy.

I can almost agree.  I really like the sound effect for Shout (has a good inhale>>BOOM effect), but you're right that Shriek and Scream don't really sound like voices.  But then again, how do you make something that sounds like a voice but is generic enough that you could use it for any character you can make in CoH/V (male/female included)?

For the fire blaster the fireball is good, but the first two blasts are nothing compared to the first two in the energy line, which definitely have an "oomph" to them.  And this is where I disagree with you on the "feelings have place in game design", which I read to be "game creation" (course, if you really mean "game design" then I don't disagree).  When they put together the energy line you know they had to be grinning at each other, regardless of how much damage it pushes, it just feels massive.

I meant in terms of game design, because you called the new sets uninteresting.  I think, mechanically, they provide a lot of interesting options. But Archery is boring to watch, no doubt.  Sonics I still like.

I still disagree about Fire.  I think the animation for Flares is pretty lame and could be better done, but I don't feel it lack impacts. I've just never seen anyone stand in that pose to use fire, before.  And as a supposedly quick, minor damage attack, it doesn't feel very quick.  Fire Blast, the supposedly slower cousin, feels much quicker.  So that could use some help.  But that's character animation- for the actual effects of the powers (the sounds and the particles) I'd say fire is just fine, it always sounds pretty strong when fire hits anything.

[dEOS]

For the fire blaster the fireball is good, but the first two blasts are nothing compared to the first two in the energy line, which definitely have an "oomph" to them.  And this is where I disagree with you on the "feelings have place in game design", which I read to be "game creation" (course, if you really mean "game design" then I don't disagree).  When they put together the energy line you know they had to be grinning at each other, regardless of how much damage it pushes, it just feels massive.

I agree :) Energy feels like blasting. Other sets do as well: Radiation, Electricity... but Energy is really capturing how I feel "blasting should be".

I also agree with what you said about character progression.
I am playing this game to experience PvE except that the billion-th mission against CoT or Council doesn't appeal to me anymore and that's what you experience "a lot" while playing in the 30s range. What do I get to compensate for that slow progression ? I get to choose powers at 30, 32, 35 and 38... My character is very established in his gameplay. By the 30s, I generally have all my core powers. What is made available in the 30s range generally won't make a world of difference in my gameplay experience. Some powers are neat like my pets for my controller but some are really meh as in "not really changing anything to my experience".

I am liking the early levels because you see your character getting new powers that define your gameplay. Higher level powers don't have that feeling most of the time. Rate of progression is slow in that regard.

Rate of progression is also too slow regarding the diversity of content. If you want to make it slow, you better make the time I spend grinding a fresh experience. Having diverse environments in the 1-30 game is cool (Striga and Croatoa certainly helped in that regard). Forcing me to do the 30-40 basically in Founder's Fall, Talos, Indepence Port and Crey's Folly doing the same missions over and over again is not fun. Oh cool another Defeat 30 CoT in FF, err not!

My biggest gripe with ED is still that they didn't get rid of Stamina for good. It's basically taken by 95% of the players out there. Of course, there is THE example of the guy not taking it (I know you are out there)... the truth is that most toons are A LOT MORE ENJOYABLE with it. Running out of endurance all the time is not fun.

How much time did it take to reduce the recharge rate on Rest ? Seriously?
They should make the entire Fitness line inherent to toons. People wouldn't feel forced to dedicate power choices in the 12-20 range to travel power + fitness and could take "all powers in their primaries and secondaries". Currently I know that it will be difficult if I don't take Fitness on my toons.

I believe there is something with Cryptic not willing to remove useless power pools. Apparently they can't force-reset toons... Something they should have to do, should they want to make the Fitness line inherent.

Another gripe is the fact that there is no real way to tell if a power will be useful to you or not in advance. You can't go back on your decisions if not for the 3 respecs (and free respecs but those are going to be rarer). You can't even just reset your slots allocation. There is no testing. There is no trial & error. There is no make yourself an opinion on a given power. People go to the forums to know what is good and what is not. People go to the forums, pick up a template from a guide and go with that. Where is the fun in picking up powers ? Currently you pick-up powers according to guides and hope that the majority of players on the forum are not wrong. Ability to copy toons on the test server is NOT an acceptable option since you basically have to be computer literate and to read the forums to know how to do it (and know it even exists)... but your copied toons is devoid of influence, thus forcing you to hunt to buy required SO just for a test and if that test is not conclusive, you have to copy again and re-hunt to gain influence...

They can redo powers a lot... they will gain only hate for doing so. People in City Of Heroes hate having to redo their builds because tools & information made available to them to know what is good in the new rules are simply not acceptable from a gamer point of view. If power selection is NOT obvious and makes a HUGE difference on the playability of the toon, then give the players the ability to tweak at will (with some reasonable timing to avoid any exploiting).

AC1/AC2 where I come from let you rearrange powers selection. They made the process somewhat long but nothing was done for good, you could test and adjust. Once a toon has used the 3 respecs in COH, this toon is doomed to wait for the next free respec which is not guaranteed. Given how dramatically the game changes between the pre-SO level and the post-40 levels... 3 respecs is really low.

Sorry if this long ranting seems destructured but the flow just came out of my mind like that.

[Valmorian]

I read your previous posts as being dismissive of anyone else's viewpoint or some attempt to disprove the "stamina/hasten is necessary" cannon, simply because you don't mind playing a slower game, seemingly without any sort of effort to understand where the other players were coming from.  I took this to be fanboism at it's most annoying.

If that was not where you were coming from, my apologies for being so aggressive.

Not at all.  My post was pointing out that people tend to make overblown statements like "It's IMPOSSIBLE to play the game without a tank, healer and damage dealer" when what they really mean is "I'm unhappy with the rate of my experience gain in the game without a tank, healer and damage dealer".  These are very different claims, and it is this sort of overblown exaggeration that >I< find annoying.  I'm fond of CoH, but I am FAR from a "fanboi".  There's a number of things I'd love to see changed about the game, but that doesn't mean I'd say it's unplayable without those changes.

[Xanthippe]

My biggest gripe with ED is still that they didn't get rid of Stamina for good. It's basically taken by 95% of the players out there. Of course, there is THE example of the guy not taking it (I know you are out there)... the truth is that most toons are A LOT MORE ENJOYABLE with it. Running out of endurance all the time is not fun.

Yes.  Yes.  Yes.  Yes.

I just hit 23 on my plant/thorn dom and realized I must have stamina or forget that toon.  Won't be happy without it.

Also, I can not solo nearly as effectively as my controller can because I can't kill things quickly enough to make it worthwhile.  Yes, I'm uber with domination, but when it's something I can use perhaps 3 times a mission, and I like to save it for the orange bosses at the end....

Regarding build - I'm one of those people who gets what looks good at the time.  Completely disorganized.  I suppose you could call me a min/min'r.  At some point I'll get it together to figure out what to take and what to slot, but that's after a respec when I've actually used the powers in question to see what they do and how they fit with how I like to play.

It would be nice to have a Power-Test server for the players, who could go and practice playing on temp toons different powersets they build.  What would be the downside to such a thing from a dev point of view?

[Furiously]

A server where you could /level # and immediately be that level and where you could /influence # to give yourself the influence.

Interesting....I'd say daily wipes and it would be good.

[Xanthippe]

A server where you could /level # and immediately be that level and where you could /influence # to give yourself the influence.

Interesting....I'd say daily wipes and it would be good.

Or log out and the toon disappears. 

[Typhon]

The auto-level type of idea has never appealed to me because I like that character progression, but hard to please broken - I hate it when it feels like grind, but I like that my char progresses.

[Xanthippe]

What I'm talking about is a test server for the players to be able to check out a powerset to see if it's worth levelling up in.

In other words, try before you commit.

[Llava]

I'd be happier just having the option to get dropped into a "training room" when you level up, select a power that's available to you and you suddenly have it there.  Toss in a few target dummies (some moving ones at varying ranks like minion/boss/etc, so people can test CC effects and magnitude).  Make it a public area instead of an instance so people can test buff powers and such.

I really don't want to bother logging out, going to the character copier, making the copy, waiting a few minutes, then updating my CoH Test Client, and trying it out there.  Pain in the butt.  Just give me a chance to dip my toe in the water before I jump in.