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Author Topic: I was (mostly) wrong. Enhancement Diversification  (Read 27035 times)
dEOS
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Posts: 91


Reply #70 on: November 15, 2005, 01:24:52 AM

What I'm talking about is a test server for the players to be able to check out a powerset to see if it's worth levelling up in.
In other words, try before you commit.

Well the problem remains the same... You won't know what a good template for your toon will be unless you practice a lot with all the powers and I think most importantly in a team setting. Defenders for instance have some powers that are only really useful in a team environment like anchor acc debuff. Huge endurance drain but really worth it in a team. Solo you will drain yourself out of endurance with it running and most of the time your attacks have a sufficient secondary effect to make it not worth it.

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Typhon
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Reply #71 on: November 15, 2005, 03:46:34 AM

What I'm talking about is a test server for the players to be able to check out a powerset to see if it's worth levelling up in.

In other words, try before you commit.

I'm having definite reading comprehension problems this week, sorry.
Glazius
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Reply #72 on: November 15, 2005, 06:45:51 AM

My biggest gripe with ED is still that they didn't get rid of Stamina for good. It's basically taken by 95% of the players out there. Of course, there is THE example of the guy not taking it (I know you are out there)... the truth is that most toons are A LOT MORE ENJOYABLE with it. Running out of endurance all the time is not fun.

How much time did it take to reduce the recharge rate on Rest ? Seriously?
They should make the entire Fitness line inherent to toons. People wouldn't feel forced to dedicate power choices in the 12-20 range to travel power + fitness and could take "all powers in their primaries and secondaries". Currently I know that it will be difficult if I don't take Fitness on my toons.
But if you don't feel an endurance pinch now and again, how are all the powers which restore endurance going to be useful?

Despite what anyone might say, click attack powers are the main endurance sink. Classes composed entirely of click attack powers, like the Blaster and Dominator, feel more of an endurance pinch than most others.

--GF
Alkiera
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Reply #73 on: November 15, 2005, 07:02:30 AM

My biggest gripe with ED is still that they didn't get rid of Stamina for good. It's basically taken by 95% of the players out there. Of course, there is THE example of the guy not taking it (I know you are out there)... the truth is that most toons are A LOT MORE ENJOYABLE with it. Running out of endurance all the time is not fun.

How much time did it take to reduce the recharge rate on Rest ? Seriously?
They should make the entire Fitness line inherent to toons. People wouldn't feel forced to dedicate power choices in the 12-20 range to travel power + fitness and could take "all powers in their primaries and secondaries". Currently I know that it will be difficult if I don't take Fitness on my toons.
But if you don't feel an endurance pinch now and again, how are all the powers which restore endurance going to be useful?
The end restoration powers come with other players, for the most part, who, by their very presence, increase the enemy population, and therefore endurance expenditure.
Quote
Despite what anyone might say, click attack powers are the main endurance sink. Classes composed entirely of click attack powers, like the Blaster and Dominator, feel more of an endurance pinch than most others.

I agree, on the attack powers.  With Broadsword I've run with an end reduction SO in each attack for a long time, and haven't had the 'horrendous' end problems people normally associate with the set.  I also have end reduction in my defenses, but it's really a minor effect... paying .28 end/sec instead of .4 end/sec isn't going to make or break you, really.  You regen something like 100 end/minute, naturally.  .4 end/sec is 24 end/min, .28 is 17 end/min.  Sure, less is better, but not compared to the amount pouring out thru attack powers.  Most broadsword attacks are around 12.5 per use, and take, sec, 1.5 seconds to do.  A chain of those works out to something like 8.5 end/sec... a minute of solid attacking is nearly 500 endurance.  That 24 end/minute for a toggle is not looking like so much now, is it?

Alkiera

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Xanthippe
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Reply #74 on: November 15, 2005, 07:41:02 AM

The problem I'm running into with my Dom is that I run out of end after 3 sllightly lower con mobs.  I don't have Hasten either (another must-have, I think).

So for my attack slots, it seems the most important are accuracy, damage, recharge rate and end reduction.

In a group, I run out of end quick.  Solo, I have to rest between every fight, which is boring.

Of course, there's every chance I'm not playing my dom "right."

I have no idea how to build domination in pvp.  Don't really see how I can unless it's group pvp.
dEOS
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Reply #75 on: November 15, 2005, 09:14:10 AM

But if you don't feel an endurance pinch now and again, how are all the powers which restore endurance going to be useful?

I would agree entirely if we were not already going out of endurance with Stamina. Having all toggles up (and most of the time all of them are required) and dishing out attacks on the mobs as soon as they come up (or almost) in a 8-people team setting (so that's 17+-ish mobs encounters) still dries you out of endurance.

The fact is that there are still benefit in having additional endurance recovery powers.

Quote
Despite what anyone might say, click attack powers are the main endurance sink. Classes composed entirely of click attack powers, like the Blaster and Dominator, feel more of an endurance pinch than most others.

Agreed and good advice. ED allows (or forces if you see it that way) us in slotting something else than damage. Makes room for recharge, accuracy, endurance redux and secondary effects.

Better but still not enough number-wise unless they allow us to have Hamidon style enhancements in earlier levels. Having something slotted like what follows would rock:
- Slot 1 : enhancement doing acc SO + rech SO
- Slot 2 : enhancement doing acc SO + rech SO
- Slot 3 : enhancement doing acc SO + rech SO
- Slot 4 : enhancement doing damage SO + secondary effect SO
- Slot 5 : enhancement doing damage SO + end redux SO
- Slot 6 : enhancement doing damage SO + end redux SO

And why not 3-effects enhancement (all SO level) for a single 3-acc SO enhancement. It could be the start of a trade economy and a very good reason to craft. Not sure people want CoH to head this way though.

Back to Stamina consideration, people want to dish damage (flying numbers!), defeat err arrest mobs by the dozens, see eye-candy (knockback, holds...)... it's good for the ego and it's even more fun in teams when everything is arrested in a spectacular way. They want to feel like heroes. Currently we are into micro-management of infamy to be able to afford DOs... and constant Rest because "wow, those 3 even-con minions really made me tired". Downtime is not fun and downtime is not part of content unless you add mini-games while I wait for my endurance bar to come up as I already used my Rest in the previous fights.

I am not for trivialization of content but nerfing us down to "you should be able to solo 3 even-con minions" was a bit much. Where is the fun in that when we have been dealing with hordes of yellows for months? If CoH was released today, sure. But not now. Push the envelope instead. Allow us to be more powerful. Make us face new harder content and revamp the existing one.

A good example of this is Asheron's Call 1 where instead of nerfing toons, they went forward. It took sometime sure but it was well worth it. They completely redid the mobs, their difficulty levels, their locations on the maps and so on.

In CoH, they adjust players down toward a fixed content. Maybe the huge amount of it prevents a revamp but bringing down players down a subjective line is not pleasant to the players. Especially when it is done repeatedly. People are really asking for more content (or revamp of existing one) but they only get that done very slowly. Lots of zones in CoH are desert zones because those zones have no interest. Even more so since they removed soloability of some toons in hazard zones (I know that was really wrong but that was fun).
- Shadow Shard
- Eden
- Terra Volta (outside of having to go there for the respec trial)
- Faultline
...

 angry

One more nerf is on the way btw. They are going to nerf Invulnerability defense buff because it's bugged currently and giving twice what it should give. One more month of hate on the forums? Err no, devs are very silent at the moment... not time to make another nerf announcement. I hope so very much that they have something up their sleeves for REAL SOON(tm).

I love CoH as a game. The combination of powers and ATs is just fun fun fun. Eye-candy whore I am and CoH fullfills that very well. But the bad mood, bitterness of the community is affecting my enjoyment of the game as a whole.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2005, 09:16:19 AM by dEOS »

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Typhon
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Reply #76 on: November 15, 2005, 12:33:54 PM

I hope so very much that they have something up their sleeves for REAL SOON(tm).

I love CoH as a game.

I agree, the concept and a great deal of the implementation is very well done (course, I've made it very hard to tell that this is how I feel lately).  I just wish that they would spend more time on aspects of the game that have a bigger net positive impact on 'fun'.  More time with environment/npc changes that a player can choose to learn/adapt to by visiting that zone/those npcs rather then character/powerset nerfs that a player needs to swallow without choice (and the feeling of regression/backward motion that comes with having power levels adjusted downward).

There were other means by which they could have reduced the impact/ability to herd (having each minion within melee range cause a minor debuff to damage resistance, defense and endurance regen that stacks with number of minions - giving the feel of the minions wearing down the tank).  Make broader use of underlings (I may be using the wrong term here - Rikti monkeys are underlings, less powerful then minions, usually come in greater numbers)

Implementing distributed amount of damage for AE effects, etc.  I agree with the philosophy of ED - I think the enhancements that mattered were allowed to matter far too much, but I also think they missed the boat in regards to making enhancements that don't matter so much actually matter.

All stick and no carrot in regards to character changes is not fun.

But they are making progress.  The Mu magicians seem to be a step in the right direction.  One adept is not so much to worry about - their blasts damage and reduce end, while 3 or 4 can be a serious challenge for an AT that needs toggles.  That is very well done.  NPCs that work in concert and scale with numbers feels right and are challenging if effective tactics are not used.

Binary/insta-dead type npcs are just tedious.  Take for instance the Malta sappers.  A minion level npc, which having played a tank against is an extrememtly annoying npc to play against (massive end drain + hold = death).  Give it a massive end drain, or give it a hold effect, or give it a moderate drain/hold that only becomes a problem if there are 3.  Then have other npc's have abilities that work in concert with the sapper, giving the player the choice of deciding which npc represents the biggest threat in a given encounter.  This sort of dynamic would also seem to encourage players to split a spawn - if the spawn had attacks/powers that worked synergistically with each other the player group would be better off splitting the spawn.

I'm still sick (fever) after a five days, and I see I'm still babbling. stopping now.
Glazius
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Reply #77 on: November 15, 2005, 12:45:50 PM

The problem I'm running into with my Dom is that I run out of end after 3 sllightly lower con mobs.  I don't have Hasten either (another must-have, I think).

So for my attack slots, it seems the most important are accuracy, damage, recharge rate and end reduction.

In a group, I run out of end quick.  Solo, I have to rest between every fight, which is boring.

Of course, there's every chance I'm not playing my dom "right."

I have no idea how to build domination in pvp.  Don't really see how I can unless it's group pvp.
Hasten is just going to increase your bleed rate.

Click attack powers, when you factor in animation and recharge time, all come in in the neighborhood of 1 endurance/second. If you have Hasten and nothing else you're just _increasing_ your expenditure to 1.7 endurance/second per power. So, uh, under Hasten, Stamina was equal to putting one SO end reducer in _three atacks_; under ED it's more like two attacks, tempered somewhat by the loss of permahasten.

AoE controls don't do significant damage; in addition, the AoE immobilize uses about 2 endurance/second. Fighting solo, generally don't use your AoE stuff, since you're only facing two or three at a time, and you can immobilize one, hold another, and kite slightly then immobilize a third since your immobilize recharges about half as long as it lasts. Then use your assault line and tear into one, renewing your hold and immobilize as they come up. Also keep in mind that melee AoEs need to hit at least three targets to be endurance-efficient.

Domination decays much more slowly than rage, so you could in theory whup up on some NPCs in a PVP zone and then go cruising for a hero group to pop Domination on.

--GF
Glazius
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Reply #78 on: November 15, 2005, 12:52:09 PM

But they are making progress.  The Mu magicians seem to be a step in the right direction.  One adept is not so much to worry about - their blasts damage and reduce end, while 3 or 4 can be a serious challenge for an AT that needs toggles.  That is very well done.  NPCs that work in concert and scale with numbers feels right and are challenging if effective tactics are not used.
So exactly how are the Mu different from the Clockwork?

--GF
Glazius
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Reply #79 on: November 15, 2005, 01:11:31 PM

Back to Stamina consideration, people want to dish damage (flying numbers!), defeat err arrest mobs by the dozens, see eye-candy (knockback, holds...)... it's good for the ego and it's even more fun in teams when everything is arrested in a spectacular way. They want to feel like heroes. Currently we are into micro-management of infamy to be able to afford DOs... and constant Rest because "wow, those 3 even-con minions really made me tired". Downtime is not fun and downtime is not part of content unless you add mini-games while I wait for my endurance bar to come up as I already used my Rest in the previous fights.

I am not for trivialization of content but nerfing us down to "you should be able to solo 3 even-con minions" was a bit much. Where is the fun in that when we have been dealing with hordes of yellows for months? If CoH was released today, sure. But not now. Push the envelope instead. Allow us to be more powerful. Make us face new harder content and revamp the existing one.

A good example of this is Asheron's Call 1 where instead of nerfing toons, they went forward. It took sometime sure but it was well worth it. They completely redid the mobs, their difficulty levels, their locations on the maps and so on.
Actually, in CoH right now (at least in the post-SO era 22 and up) one blue(-1) mob is worth as much as one white(+0) mob used to be in I4. One white is worth a little less than an orange(+2) used to be in I4. One yellow(+1) is worth more than one red(+3) used to be in I4.

So in effect, a six-man team running on heroic/villainous and facing +1s is better-rewarded than the same six-man team running on invincible/ihaven'tpaidmuchattentiontovillaindifficultylevels and facing +3s used to be.

But as you point out, the con color makes it feel less fun. Cryptic has managed to improve the numbers while still making people feel nerfed.

I'm betting that with Prestige and Salvage coming into the mix, supergroups may be mounting coordinated action in hazard and/or trial zones, simply because lieutenants and bosses produce large amounts of both. Especially since some of the higher-end base items require enemy group-specific salvage rather than more generic refined parts. Hazard zones spawn for 3-6 players, trials for 6-8 - and it's telling that CoV lacks not only "mandatory" missions to hunt in hazard/trial zones, but in fact lacks hazard/trial zones completely.

At some point in the future CoH has to adopt some facets of the CoV mission architecture - contacts with their own personality and stories, mission completion sharing, maybe the endless paper missions system or something like it. If they could do for all the old zones what they did for Striga and Croatoa (even the Hollows to an extent) you'd probably find more people in there.

I've never been caught up in _any_ story in CoH as much as I was by Seer Marino's mission chain in CoV. If they can put someone like her in Boomtown or Eden it'd go a long way to making the zone usable.

Quote
One more nerf is on the way btw. They are going to nerf Invulnerability defense buff because it's bugged currently and giving twice what it should give. One more month of hate on the forums? Err no, devs are very silent at the moment... not time to make another nerf announcement. I hope so very much that they have something up their sleeves for REAL SOON(tm).

...which begs the question, if the devs aren't saying anything, how do you know it's going to happen?

--GF
Llava
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Reply #80 on: November 15, 2005, 06:52:49 PM

Seer Marino's mission chain

I did this last night.

It was awesome.

"Your end is coming..."
"She's lying, get her!"
"...and its name is Horde!"

Funny how something as simple as that little bit can make me feel like some powerful, feared, vengeful villain.

(I should note: Horde was my character's name.  So folks can glean the right context from that.)

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
dEOS
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Reply #81 on: November 16, 2005, 02:03:57 AM

Actually, in CoH right now (at least in the post-SO era 22 and up) one blue(-1) mob is worth as much as one white(+0) mob used to be in I4. One white is worth a little less than an orange(+2) used to be in I4. One yellow(+1) is worth more than one red(+3) used to be in I4.

So in effect, a six-man team running on heroic/villainous and facing +1s is better-rewarded than the same six-man team running on invincible/ihaven'tpaidmuchattentiontovillaindifficultylevels and facing +3s used to be.

But as you point out, the con color makes it feel less fun. Cryptic has managed to improve the numbers while still making people feel nerfed.

I was actually looking for the higher XP rewards in I5. I played my lvl 36 fire tank this week-end for two hours. Good pick-up group, we really had a good composition and we went through yellow/orange missions fast. 2 hours of play... around 2 bubbles. I felt progression was slow so in the middle of it I launched HeroStats. I looked at my "time to level"... 8-9 hours (at this rate). Eeek! Guess people powerleveled for a reason.

Quote
I'm betting that with Prestige and Salvage coming into the mix, supergroups may be mounting coordinated action in hazard and/or trial zones, simply because lieutenants and bosses produce large amounts of both. Especially since some of the higher-end base items require enemy group-specific salvage rather than more generic refined parts. Hazard zones spawn for 3-6 players, trials for 6-8 - and it's telling that CoV lacks not only "mandatory" missions to hunt in hazard/trial zones, but in fact lacks hazard/trial zones completely.

Interesting. Something I didn't think of. Maybe they'll make some of the less used hazard zones PvP zones. Probably not until they make salvage worth something though.

Quote
One more nerf is on the way btw. They are going to nerf Invulnerability defense buff because it's bugged currently and giving twice what it should give. One more month of hate on the forums? Err no, devs are very silent at the moment... not time to make another nerf announcement. I hope so very much that they have something up their sleeves for REAL SOON(tm).

...which begs the question, if the devs aren't saying anything, how do you know it's going to happen?
Quote

Reported by Circeus and others from the tank forums that the defense numbers provided were not in line with what the devs said the number were.

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=4024405&page=2&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=2&vc=1

And after checking, it's in the patch notes of the test server today:
 * Modified Invulnerabiity/Invincibility and Ice Armor/Energy Absorption. for both powers: Max number of affected targets have been reduced to 10; The first target you affect grants you more defense than before; Additional defense gained for each affected target after the first is at a reduced rate. This change will ensure the powers grant a reasnonable defense bonus when facing few foes, while making it more challenging to get a massive defense bonus.

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2092861&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#2092861

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Typhon
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Reply #82 on: November 16, 2005, 04:15:21 AM

But they are making progress.  The Mu magicians seem to be a step in the right direction.  One adept is not so much to worry about - their blasts damage and reduce end, while 3 or 4 can be a serious challenge for an AT that needs toggles.  That is very well done.  NPCs that work in concert and scale with numbers feels right and are challenging if effective tactics are not used.
So exactly how are the Mu different from the Clockwork?

--GF

Good point.  Truthful answer is "I don't know, but they feel different".  It feels like they are more of an impact to end.  Possibly they have a -end regen effect as well.  Possibly I'm full of shit.

And, after thinking about it a bit - all Arachnos don't have the same secondary effect.  Some have knockdown/back, etc.  So if the spawn is a bit random, the fights play out differently, and the tactics need to be different.  With the clockwork it's pretty much all the same, and the end effect is pretty mild.

This last point seems to argue for hero's to face larger numbers of villians (which they do when grouped), so that spawns can employ different tactics of their own.  For the combos/synergies to take effect, they would have to figure out how to have npc's assist each other.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 04:23:21 AM by Typhon »
dEOS
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Reply #83 on: November 16, 2005, 06:23:25 AM

So exactly how are the Mu different from the Clockwork?

Good point.  Truthful answer is "I don't know, but they feel different".  It feels like they are more of an impact to end.  Possibly they have a -end regen effect as well.  Possibly I'm full of shit.

Clockworks like to come to melee a lot and then they do smash/lethal damage. Mu don't. They stay at range and use end draining attacks. It makes a ton of difference even more so as it is very hard to have Mu in cone/AOEs as they are so static.

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Glazius
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Reply #84 on: November 16, 2005, 07:12:44 AM

So exactly how are the Mu different from the Clockwork?

Good point.  Truthful answer is "I don't know, but they feel different".  It feels like they are more of an impact to end.  Possibly they have a -end regen effect as well.  Possibly I'm full of shit.

Clockworks like to come to melee a lot and then they do smash/lethal damage. Mu don't. They stay at range and use end draining attacks. It makes a ton of difference even more so as it is very hard to have Mu in cone/AOEs as they are so static.
Mu can't shoot through walls, same as everything else.

Look, ma, I'm exploiting world geometry!

--GF
Glazius
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Reply #85 on: November 16, 2005, 07:19:23 AM

Seer Marino's mission chain

I did this last night.

It was awesome.

"Your end is coming..."
"She's lying, get her!"
"...and its name is Horde!"

Funny how something as simple as that little bit can make me feel like some powerful, feared, vengeful villain.

(I should note: Horde was my character's name.  So folks can glean the right context from that.)
They seriously need to stick the guy that wrote that in a time machine and send him back to when Cryptic was first writing mission arcs.

Like, CoH, you plow through somewhat faceless and generic contacts for 40 levels before you hit the unique ones, with the occasional bright spark if you want to brave a hazard zone.

CoV? Level 5, baby.

--GF

"You've found where they're keeping the book? Why are you bothering to consult me? Go reclaim it! Though I do quite enjoy conversations with my moral peers."
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #86 on: November 16, 2005, 07:50:48 AM

Damn you people, I am trying resist buying CoV. You insensitive bastards.
I wish they'd fix melee attacks to close the distance when you attack.
As it was when I last played, melee was gimp in choatic battle.

So, did someone say Burn wasn't good anymore?

"Me am play gods"
Typhon
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Reply #87 on: November 16, 2005, 08:17:15 AM

So, did someone say Burn wasn't good anymore?

That'd be me, but honestly I always felt the power was stupid for a tank to have so I am not objective.

The way it works now is:
  • It has a pretty large fear effect (NPCs run out of it's AOE unless held in the flames).
  • Recharge time was increased (multiple burns is either impossible or close to impossible).
  • Damage was reduced.
  • Animation times were left the same
  • They may have reduced the acc of the ticks, but I can't recall for sure.  If they did, it's not by much (although I spec'd out of it)
  • Radius was left the same
  • Still cures immobilization

I guess you could take it if you group with a controller/dominator alot, or if you have no other way to cure immob effects.

Edit: meant to say "not objective" instead of "not subjective"
« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 12:56:39 PM by Typhon »
Glazius
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Reply #88 on: November 16, 2005, 08:23:28 AM

Damn you people, I am trying resist buying CoV. You insensitive bastards.
I wish they'd fix melee attacks to close the distance when you attack.
As it was when I last played, melee was gimp in choatic battle.
You still need to close the gap to melee, unless you're a cheap bastard spine/claw scrapper, but sometime around I3 or I4 they fixed the server-side code so that melee range was more forgiving when trying to keep up with a moving target.

--GF
Typhon
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Reply #89 on: November 16, 2005, 08:59:13 AM

Clockworks like to come to melee a lot and then they do smash/lethal damage. Mu don't. They stay at range and use end draining attacks. It makes a ton of difference even more so as it is very hard to have Mu in cone/AOEs as they are so static.

doh! of course this is why.  you are smart, thanks.

Things staying at range is more prevalent.  Somewhat odd that they put in AI to counter herding along with all the other herding-counters.  I never joined a herding group, were they as boring as they sounded? (question is to anyone)
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Reply #90 on: November 16, 2005, 09:32:41 AM

I keep thinking about CoV but villians can't have the electric powerset and thats always been my favorite.  Also I still can't shake the feeling that the grind would kill be before I even got to the first pvp zone.  I've never met PvE that I truly enjoyed because for me it will always be just a hurdle to bypass so I can get to the gooey player conflict center.  Beating up on AI has never given me satisfaction.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
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dEOS
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Reply #91 on: November 16, 2005, 12:39:32 PM

Quote
Clockworks like to come to melee a lot and then they do smash/lethal damage. Mu don't. They stay at range and use end draining attacks. It makes a ton of difference even more so as it is very hard to have Mu in cone/AOEs as they are so static.
Mu can't shoot through walls, same as everything else.

Look, ma, I'm exploiting world geometry!

Somehow they have a large bounding box, therefore when you use corners to gather them those in the back tend to be too far for melee cone attacks (guess it's the same for AOEs). Clockworks are small, they pack tightly :)

Hard to explain but Mu are harder to place using geometry than clocks.

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Llava
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Reply #92 on: November 16, 2005, 01:09:58 PM

or if you have no other way to cure immob effects.

Eh.

Anyone can take Combat Jumping.  Unless there are 4 other pools you just /have/ to have.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Typhon
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Reply #93 on: November 16, 2005, 01:29:35 PM

or if you have no other way to cure immob effects.

Eh.

Anyone can take Combat Jumping.  Unless there are 4 other pools you just /have/ to have.

Well, I know I tend to be a concept fanatic. If my char is a flyer, I will not take a jumping power unless I can convince myself that it fits.  Was just looking for some reason to take it/silver lining.
dEOS
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Reply #94 on: November 16, 2005, 01:51:16 PM

or if you have no other way to cure immob effects.
Eh.
Anyone can take Combat Jumping.  Unless there are 4 other pools you just /have/ to have.

Given that Acrobatics in the Leaping power pool is the only available knockback protection for a Fire tank, SJ as a travel power is pretty much a given for a Fire/ tank.

d

CoH - Freedom
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Llava
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Rrava roves you rong time


Reply #95 on: November 16, 2005, 01:54:50 PM

or if you have no other way to cure immob effects.
Eh.
Anyone can take Combat Jumping.  Unless there are 4 other pools you just /have/ to have.

Given that Acrobatics in the Leaping power pool is the only available knockback protection for a Fire tank, SJ as a travel power is pretty much a given for a Fire/ tank.

d

Ditto for Dark Armor. No knockback protection, and the only immobilization protection comes in Cloak of Darkness which is one of those awful powers that doesn't just obscure your character, it completely removes it and replaces it with a particle effect.  And activating it is kinda a pain, so Combat Jumping is a no-brainer for immob-protection.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #96 on: November 18, 2005, 08:34:52 AM

I had a moment of weakness and bought the game.
So far, so good. 
Port Oaks is like a newbie Striga, neat.
Is there a task force at the end of it also?
I found the "strange" radio, it told me to go back to my contact, but he had nothing to say about it.
I don't mind killing other villains, but the game needs "rampage" missions to remind me I am not a hero.
Playing villain game without money seems sort of bizzaro.
The "chosen one or maybe not" story-line is a bit "gag me with a spoon."

"Me am play gods"
Llava
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Rrava roves you rong time


Reply #97 on: November 18, 2005, 09:37:41 AM

I found the "strange" radio, it told me to go back to my contact, but he had nothing to say about it.

You are probably a bit low level to get the missions from the Radio yet.

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Glazius
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Reply #98 on: November 18, 2005, 09:57:23 AM

I had a moment of weakness and bought the game.
So far, so good. 
Port Oaks is like a newbie Striga, neat.
Is there a task force at the end of it also?
Nope. The first 'strike force' is in Cap Au Diable, for 15-20. For some reason there's no 10-15 one, which is eight hours long and involves running around all the zones up to that point, largely without travel powers, and fighting the most relatively powerful enemies in the game. I wonder why.
Quote
I found the "strange" radio, it told me to go back to my contact, but he had nothing to say about it.
You can start listening to the voice in your head at level 10, assuming that contact tips you off.

(Yes, this is how the missions are actually presented to you. There's also a car and a slot machine later on.)
Quote
I don't mind killing other villains, but the game needs "rampage" missions to remind me I am not a hero.
You'll never really get to kill innocents, except by proxy - well, unless you think the Vazhilok just give them a nice cup of cocoa and a muffin. There are a few civilian models who fight against you but, uh, fight is the operative word. If you want to go on a rampage then you can have a go at it around 25 or so, on Sharkhead Isle. The miners there are definitely civilians, except they've been doped up by the Cage Corporation so they can drill through solid rock with their bare hands. Every now and again the ghost of their leader rallies them on a giant protest march around the zone, and carving that up from the blind side is kinda fun.
Quote
Playing villain game without money seems sort of bizzaro.
The "chosen one or maybe not" story-line is a bit "gag me with a spoon."
Yeah, infamy would work a lot better if it were swapped for, like, R$ or 'spider-bucks'. But then that'd raise the problem of how money spilled out of, like, summoned demons and animate slagheaps and the like. Some people are floating ideas for a "bundle o' cash" salvage item which could be 'sold' for infamy or prestige or something.

The overall conceit of the game being that you're trying to prove yourself to Arachnos offers at least an in-world justification for things like why some Arachnos give you missions and others just shoot at you.

--GF
ClydeJr
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Reply #99 on: November 18, 2005, 01:34:47 PM

I don't mind killing other villains, but the game needs "rampage" missions to remind me I am not a hero.
One of the first contacts you get from the brokers in Port Oakes is a mafia style guy who really hates the Council. In one of the missions, he says that someone in his family has betrayed the family to the Council. Your job is to go into the Council base and defeat everyone including the traitor. I did that and when the traitor went down, he yelled out something like "Sarah, I'm sorry!"

Turns out Sarah was his daughter who was sick with some rare illness. The traitor was going to betray his family because the Council was going to cure his daughter. The mafia guy then said that he would pay to get the girl cured and then would train her to be killer, telling her that the Council killed her father. Once the Council was destroyed or the daughter was killed, he would consider the traitor's debt to the family over. So not only did I kill the one guy, but I helped ruin his daughter's life by forcing her to become a weapon. That mission definitely made me feel like a villain and not just a hero with skulls on his costume.
Stormwaltz
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Reply #100 on: November 18, 2005, 03:19:12 PM

[So not only did I kill the one guy, but I helped ruin his daughter's life by forcing her to become a weapon. That mission definitely made me feel like a villain and not just a hero with skulls on his costume.

I must quibble with this. If you knew the true story going in, and still took the mission - yes, you would be a villain. Making a choice in ignorance of the truth just makes you a puppet and a dupe.

Sorry. We have debates about this kind of thing at least once a week. :P

Nothing in this post represents the views of my current or previous employers.

"Isn't that just like an elf? Brings a spell to a gun fight."

"Sci-Fi writers don't invent the future, they market it."
- Henry Cobb
Xanthippe
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Reply #101 on: November 18, 2005, 03:35:22 PM

Neither a puppet nor a dupe.  A mercenary doing his job.



Stormwaltz
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Reply #102 on: November 18, 2005, 06:37:44 PM

Neither a puppet nor a dupe.  A mercenary doing his job.

Good point. I still couldn't qualify that as an evil player choice, though.

Killing the guy can be defined as villainous, and you know you're doing that. That's the player choosing to do evil. (We'll ignore the fact that if the player chooses not to do evil, all he does is cheat himself of a mission - thus making it a non-choice.)

What happens to the daughter afterwards is not "your" evil, because you are at no time able to influence it. You aren't given the knowledge required to make a moral choice before it occurs, and you are given no opportunity afterwards to rectify the situation. At no time can you choose to do "good." Since you can't choose to do good, you can't be said to have been evil.

With regard to the daughter, the NPC is the active agent of evil. The player is a tool, at best (as you pointed out) a callous, morally neutral mercenary. And a mercenary is rather different from a true villain.

Er... I need to STFU and stop overthinking this. ^_^;

For the record, I don't expect CoH to be KotOR. I only expect it to let me punch people in the face. So... "Closed - By Design."

Nothing in this post represents the views of my current or previous employers.

"Isn't that just like an elf? Brings a spell to a gun fight."

"Sci-Fi writers don't invent the future, they market it."
- Henry Cobb
Lantyssa
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Reply #103 on: November 18, 2005, 08:34:52 PM

Yeah, infamy would work a lot better if it were swapped for, like, R$ or 'spider-bucks'. But then that'd raise the problem of how money spilled out of, like, summoned demons and animate slagheaps and the like. Some people are floating ideas for a "bundle o' cash" salvage item which could be 'sold' for infamy or prestige or something.
Since there are references to getting cash, gems and other valuables I like to think it goes towards behind the scenes things such as maintenance, bribes, pay-offs and the like.  In several kidnap missions it is hinted at that you are adding these people to your organization, so you have to look out for them.  Of course that may work better for some concepts than others.

I must quibble with this. If you knew the true story going in, and still took the mission - yes, you would be a villain. Making a choice in ignorance of the truth just makes you a puppet and a dupe.
I would agree.  I did not like the resolution because I had no say in it.  I would have rather spent my resources curing her and brainwashing her to my causes, not spend tons of money only to throw it away meaninglessly like the contact was going to do.  Being evil does not mean you have to be foolishly destructive.  (Sure a little sensless violence is fun, but why be wasteful?)

Although it will make it easier for me to deal with the Vendetti family should they get in my way... :-D

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #104 on: November 19, 2005, 10:46:41 PM

I am confused about newspaper missions.  Its say to do 5 and get a heist and new contacts.  But it only requires me to do 3 and I haven't received a contact beyond. You get more then one contact in Port Oakes, right? Damn radio won't talk to me even at level 12.

"Me am play gods"
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