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Selby
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Reply #1960 on: May 28, 2013, 05:49:40 PM

Is this something inherent to music, or is it just that my brain isn't wired as well for music as it is for other stuff?
If I know the song really well and whatnot, I can carry on a conversation or read other material while playing along.  It won't necessarily be perfect but it won't be terrible either.  Being creative and committing things to memory, I can zone out and not pay attention to anything for hours.  I do this with other tasks too, depending on how complicated or how much processing power is involved.
Sky
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Reply #1961 on: May 29, 2013, 07:08:57 AM

Count me as another who has to focus on guitar. Just the way it is, when I'm playing I can't do anything else. But it's even hard for me to play something repetitive, I'll start wandering around and jamming on things, an odd juxtaposition of extreme focus and adhd.

When I started playing blues and singing a few years back, I found I had to be real picky with song selection and work with things played by people who can't play anything complex while singing. Luckily, one of my very favorites, Buddy Guy, is the same way.

My fiancee hates when I play when there is other music on...and I'm playing a different song. When I'm playing it's extreme focus, the tv or radio or whatever fades into the background and I can't really hear it anymore. But when I'm jamming with others, I'm constantly picking up on what they're doing and jamming off that, especially drummers. Drummers love jamming with me because I'll hear the little patterns they throw in and build off them, it's a lot of fun to get that going when I'm playing bass.
Raph
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Reply #1962 on: June 01, 2013, 04:19:45 PM

Well, we played our set today at the Sam Hinton Folk Fest. It was fun. Had a decent little crowd. I did an open mic set afterwards too. I should do this more. Sigh.
Sky
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Reply #1963 on: June 01, 2013, 07:44:27 PM

Yeah, I kick myself for finally starting to play out and get crowds into it with the blues...and then I started playing classical.  Ohhhhh, I see.
Ghambit
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Reply #1964 on: July 05, 2013, 10:24:39 AM

Though I'm sure this is easily had in stores by now, I'll just leave this right here (for complete beginners and intermediate):
http://jaykauffman.com/game-of-thrones-arranged-for-classical-guitar-duet/

pw is "partofartofguitar"

Now go practice.   Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 10:30:08 AM by Ghambit »

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Sky
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Reply #1965 on: July 05, 2013, 12:01:52 PM

The only thing that puts that into Intermediate is the tremolo, it's easy otherwise. I still haven't nailed the technique, need it for two of my favorites:

Asturias http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx7vOb7GNBg

and Recuerdos de la Alhambra http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrtW99qTk6E

I had it up to about 75% speed at one point by building on Carcassi's Etude 7 Opus 60, which is supposed to be played slow, but pushing fast give that tremolo feel (and ruins the song, for practice only!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmOJbFV0INE
Nebu
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Reply #1966 on: October 31, 2013, 09:44:34 AM

Has anyone bought or played with Riffstation?  Looks like a great way to learn tracks and solos.  

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Reply #1967 on: October 31, 2013, 11:23:57 AM

That does look cool. I've been using a subscription to Ultimate Guitar which has a huge selection of tabs for all sorts of music.

Sky
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Reply #1968 on: October 31, 2013, 12:25:25 PM

Riffstation looks pretty awesome, but I might be more inclined to the tab site (if they're accurate). I was trying to learn Hanger 18's solo on Rocksmith and between their refusal to just have a straight tab mode and zomg Marty Freidman I just chucked it. I find it easier just to see it laid out on paper.

The slow and isolate features of Riffstation would work great in conjunction with the tabs, though. Some of those fast riffs are so much more interesting slowed down.
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Reply #1969 on: January 13, 2014, 04:03:49 PM

Sky
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Reply #1970 on: February 04, 2014, 08:27:34 AM

So Ingmar solicited some questions about theory, and since I'm a guitarist primarily, I'll redirect this into this thread in hopes others find it useful.

So here's the basics. I've taken high school theory (94% final avg) and college level theory (dropped out to move to the Bay area). For some reason it doesn't really seem to 'stick' for me. I've tried working with a teacher, books, etc. I'm a fairly smart and talented person and it bugs me that I can't communicate with other musicians very well and it's holding me back from the next level of playing and being able to sit in with a more diverse set of musicians. And most of all, I'm extremely limited as an improvisationalist yet with the small amount I do know I'm quite adept with improvisation and I know theory can help me get to the level I want to achieve.

Second. I know a large part of my current dilemma is practice time, I'm super adhd with music and it's tough for me to focus on lessons (a teacher was better for focus, but also $$$). That said, I was very focused in high school and college, not only in class but applying the lessons directly in my own band's rehearsal, and yet I can't tell you what the 2nd is for a Bb scale or build the 9th chord for it. I'm lucky I can remember they are the same thing, even the whole 11th naming stuff (why can't they just call it a damned 4th chord) throws me. I have difficulty counting up and down scales, for intervals etc.

However, I'm pretty good with the fretboard and can play at least a passable fragment of a 9th chord if it comes up on a chart.

I mentioned in the Music thread that I found out an old family friend's daughter recently married a guy who is a serious player in the NYC music scene and has played with my favorite guitarist. So there is a possibility of maybe sitting in with him and some of his friends and I go back to being frustrated that my playing ability is so far advanced while my knowledge is so stunted.

Is there a question in there? I don't know. My action plan is to hit a couple of the theory books that seemed to mesh with my learning style and then hit up a local guy I know who used to give lessons and is a phenomenal jazz guitarist (I saw him at both gypsy jazz concerts in town over the last few years, so I think he'd be into it since I want to move in that direction).
Nebu
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Reply #1971 on: February 04, 2014, 09:17:04 AM

I studied theory in college and this is always where I started in my journey into theory.



1. know your major and minor scale shapes.

2. learn the pentatonic shapes for major and minor. 

3. learn 1 and 2 in several positions up and down the neck

Once you have that, then worry about dim, aug, etc.

Hope that helps.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Sky
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Reply #1972 on: February 04, 2014, 09:36:19 AM

Yep, have pentatonic minor (but not pentatonic major!), major, melodic and harmonic minor shapes all memorized and I'm decent at improvisation with all of them. The pentatonics I'm pretty scary good, as well as the minors. The majors I only really began improvising with a couple years ago, using Allman Brothers tracks (Jessica in particular) as bases. I can play in any key in any position because I'm good with pattern recognition on the fretboard thanks to the CAGED method I promote here every now and again.

The dim and aug I always forget, though.

And chaining things together beyond just shapes is difficult. I can solo in a scale over a basic chord (maj/min/7th) but using different scales over chords or having anything beyond following the chords over changes is beyond me.

Having this dichotomy in skill and knowledge is maddening. I've even considered taking violin lessons or something to remove the advanced guitar stuff from the equation.
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Reply #1973 on: February 04, 2014, 11:42:18 AM

As much as I struggled with the piano there's probably no better instrument for learning theory, so if you were going to try lessons that's the direction I'd go.

Also, this is pretty much the bible for music theory:

http://www.amazon.com/Harmony-Fifth-Walter-Piston/dp/0393954803

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Selby
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Reply #1974 on: February 04, 2014, 04:26:50 PM

The previous conversation combined with my ex and her amazing ability to look at me like I was retarded for "not getting it" regarding various theory parts is exactly why I'm glad I didn't pursue music as a career.  I'll never be good at it, my mind just apparently doesn't think that way.  I miss playing the guitar, but overcoming that hurdle to take it to the next level and actually be "good" is an exercise in frustration.
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Reply #1975 on: February 04, 2014, 10:04:58 PM

I agree on the piano -- it just makes it easier to visualize modes and scales.

Major: white keys starting at C.
Natural minor: white keys starting at A.
Dorian: from D
Mixolydian: From G
Pentatonic: black keys only

And so on. It's not until you get to exotic stuff like Hungarian scales or something that you start breaking the obvious patterns.

The trick to memorizing them is counting keys between notes. I know it's an extra thing to memorize, but there's 8 keys to a perfect fifth. Six to a perfect fourth. A major third is 5, a minor third is 4. A major 2nd is 3, a minor second is two. You count the root note in all these, obvously.

Flip a fourth upsidedown and it is a fifth.

7 is the tritone, the devil's interval. It falls between the two perfects. Stack them and you get diminished chords. There are actually only three diminished chords, because when you move, they'll cycle.

So to diminish a chord you find the perfect fifth and you flat it. You'll find that in jazz all over as a b5.

To augment it, you push the fifth up one piano key (minor sixth). that's 8 keys. One more key and it's a major sixth. 9 keys. One more and it's a minor seventh (the "bbq sauce" 7th). 10. One more and it's the maj7, the "lounge jazz" one. 11. And then you are at the octave -- that's 12 keys.

If you have that in your head, you can get to any chord pretty quick on the fretboard.

Putting scales over specific harmonies boils down to figuring out which scales work over which chords. There are SO many scales that this is really not something that is easy to master, but it basically boils down to "this scale starting at THIS root actually works over this DIFFERENT major or minor key", or it just works in the same key, depending on the scale. Sort of like crossplaying with a harmonica so that you can play blues with a major harp. I make no claims to being able to DO this mind you. :) But I understand the theory.

Progressions and modulations all boil down to leading tones or holding tones from one chord to the next. The vast majority of them involve taking a major third and moving it to a perfect fourth or fifth or (most commonly) the root note. This last one is what the V-I progression does.

Sky
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Reply #1976 on: February 04, 2014, 10:31:17 PM

You know, given my fretboard knowledge it's probably better to stick with guitar. I do a lot of major and minor triads and can build them pretty much anywhere, so roots, octaves, fifths and thirds are pretty much down. My brain definitely thinks in guitar pretty well, I try to improvise progressions with triads in different positions and shapes as a somewhat regular exercise. So I think maybe building off that, but it looks like I need to break out a workbook and spend some real shitty rote time working on notation yet a goddamn gain.

That's the thing, I'm no novice, I have a pretty good idea what I need to do, but I'm not a rote learner at all and school settings completely failed me, and further books tend to leave me bored out of my mind. It's really upsetting because I /want/ to learn, I sit and start studying a book and I know it has stuff I need to know, and my mind just shuts off. I'm getting upset just thinking about it.

The second interval (after the 5th for a power chord) that any metalhead learned was a 7th for the devil's tritone aka Black Sabbath :) Another quirk is I think in minor keys, so to me a major third is a raised third, not vice versa so even if I learned on a piano I'd probably base everything on Am :) On the guitar everything I learned grew out of Em, for years I'd play a B Phrygian without really knowing what it was, because it was just the mode that fell under my fingers with Em notes starting from the B.
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Reply #1977 on: February 04, 2014, 10:46:02 PM

Well, you can count frets just as easily as keys, it's just that the whole white/black thing helps visualize it a bit better. :)



Ingmar
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Reply #1978 on: February 05, 2014, 12:58:27 AM

It's been nigh 20 years since I looked at a copy of Piston but my recollection is that it has written exercises (here's 3 chords, add the next 3, or w/e), which adds an element of 'doing' to the whole process beyond just dry studying. If I can figure out which box all my old stuff is in I can check.

EDIT: I don't know a ton about guitar, do you have to worry about chord inversions at all?
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 01:00:33 AM by Ingmar »

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Sky
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Reply #1979 on: February 05, 2014, 07:14:52 AM

What do you mean 'worry about'? One of the tough weird things about guitar is there are multiple places to play the same note. Which is great for versatility in both voicing and timbre, as the different strings give you slightly different feels. Since I can more or less play anywhere on the neck, it's one reason I get a bit frustrated...learning the quirks of the fretboard is one of the steps to mastery. I still have a few blank spots I need to fill in, but for the most part I can just play along however which is really good for jamming with multiple guitarists or other instrumentation that sits in the same freq spectrum.

But I hardly think about inversions, I'm really just playing chord fragments for the most part, you can just stack them differently on guitar depending on position.
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Reply #1980 on: February 05, 2014, 11:03:48 AM

Ingmar, virtually all guitar chord voicing feature inversions. Of the core open chord shapes:

C strummed open actually starts on the third (E), or you carefully don't play it (the "official" way, like the image), so that the next string gives you the root; or you start it on the 5.



So that's GCEGCE if you hit the low string, xCEGCE if you don't, and it might have the G in the bass (pretty common to do alternating 1-5 bass lines that way). Also sometimes ornamented with the G up top, as xCEGCG.

The A chord has similar: it is supposed to skip the low string so it can be played xAEAC#E, but if you hit the low string then you add the E bass.

The G chord goes GBDGBG, though there's an alternate form that is GBDGDG.

E starts on the root, but goes EBEG#BE and is always played that way. The standard guitar tuning is to E.

The D chord has the least range because unlike the others, you can't get at the 1 or 5 on the lowest string. So it is customarily played xxDADF#, alternating bass can be done with xADADF#, and fingerpickers or people with big enough hands to wrap around might actually play it as F#ADADF#, usually as part of a bass line into a chord change.

All of these can be barred and moved up and down the neck, which of course preserves the intervals.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 11:05:19 AM by Raph »
Ingmar
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Reply #1981 on: February 05, 2014, 11:10:33 AM

OK cool, I was just wondering if all the material on voicing would be wasted or not.

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Reply #1982 on: February 05, 2014, 11:50:03 AM

No, not at all.

Because of the fingerings, given a particular chord shape, some inversions are easy to play and some aren't. It's why hearing sus2 is common with C shapes and D shapes and A shapes, but is a pain with G or E shapes. Sus4 is trivial with D and A shapes, and only easily done in the bass range for G and C.

This is part of why alternate tunings have always been a big part of plucked stirng instruments... opens up new sorts of intervals.
Sky
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Reply #1983 on: February 05, 2014, 12:41:04 PM

Ooh, I found a cool new toy. I've been coming across this D shape a lot more in the earlier pieces I've been playing. Oddly enough, I learned it initially from the Allman Brothers. It's a nice way to hit the D shape off the A shape. I guess it's a D/F#?



http://chordgenerator.net/D.png?p=xx4232&f=--3121&s=4

Yeah, look at that there! The URL is the input. Awesome!

Though I tend to be super lazy and just play the x0222x A chord and hammer on this (I forgot to leave the open A x0423x):

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Reply #1984 on: February 05, 2014, 05:47:58 PM

Psst, the D shape is actually the C shape with a partial barre. :) That's the fingering that makes it obvious.

That fingering of it is common for descending bass lines in folk music.
Sky
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Reply #1985 on: February 06, 2014, 07:05:49 AM

Heh, I didn't even notice! The C/D interface is one I've been trying to work on. All the interfaces between the shapes, really. It's probably my favorite 'theory' thing to noodle with (fretboard theory). Most of my work on that particular shape interface has been in Em (of course!) which is weird because of the minor third.

Hmm. Maybe I should try to notate out the exercises I do trying to link things together on the fretboard as a first step to integrating the music and fretboard theory. Like I'll try to run triads up and down but it's all just shape memory though some of the intervals I'm aware of when I'm playing (the aforementioned root/third/fifth).

Yes, that's it...I think I've got a plan, by George! Something that lets me noodle but can be used to further my notation and if not theory learning, then theory awareness. I can mine that vein and see how things look on the other side.

Thanks for bouncing ideas around!
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Reply #1986 on: February 06, 2014, 09:51:52 AM

The G shape is also the same as the A shape. A is the "barre" part. That's why you can play it xx2225 or xx2255... it's partial for 542225, whih is just the G up two frets.

The other neat thing you start to twig to is this:

022100  start here, but then move across strings, towards the higher strings. Watch the numbers slide sideways:
002220  and notice that the 1 becomes a 2 on that pesky B string bc it's tuned off from the others. Do it again,
200232  and notice that it wraps right back around to the other side when "pushed off the edge."
320033  here the other 2 becomes a 3... or a 0.
332010  and here the 0 becomes a 1 as it hits the B string
133211  and now we have slid everything up by 1 fret, thanks to that B string raising things

You just navigated down by 4ths through the circle of fifths. If the B string were a C, it would be incredibly obvious. Of course, then the high E would need to change too, to preserve the intervals...



Sky
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Reply #1987 on: February 06, 2014, 10:00:37 AM

The G shape is also the same as the A shape. A is the "barre" part. That's why you can play it xx2225 or xx2255... it's partial for 542225, whih is just the G up two frets.
Yeah, it's not the chords but linking the scales between the shapes that's tough :) All the shapes dovetail into each other, CAGED repeat. The outer 5s in your example set up the E shape. Most scale forms I only know in E or A shapes.

That other thing you posted is just weirf  why so serious?
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Reply #1988 on: February 06, 2014, 01:59:03 PM

It's because the guitar is tuned (mostly) in fourths.

One thing it shows is that there's a movable low string chord form that just isn't used very much:

221xxx

You can slide that up and down the neck just like you slide xxx232.

People tend to use the power chord form instead, but it can actually be handy to play full major/minor chords on the low three.
Sky
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Reply #1989 on: February 06, 2014, 10:21:16 PM

Yep I use that, though sporadically as my A-string rut is duads or maybe arpeggiated triads root on the A string and 3rd and 5th on the D string. That triad figure I learned really young and became a cornerstone thing early on, it's great on the bass. The duads I began to use in place of r-5th power chords (which I generally played as 5th-root-5th-octave anyway, BIG).

When I complain about my lack of theory (and it is stunted), I get a laugh out of how much more I know now than I did when I was all checked out on drugs, booze and women. I did a lot with very little, but it was a struggle to make any progress in writing.
Sky
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Reply #1990 on: February 10, 2014, 11:34:33 AM

Nebu
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Reply #1991 on: February 10, 2014, 01:15:41 PM

For the bass players.  Heart

I was expecting THIS.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Sky
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Reply #1992 on: June 03, 2014, 12:58:39 PM

Hey, I've been playing a bit more lately! Andy Aledort (one of my favorites) just put out a new column that hits right on something I've been studying the last couple weeks, playing with rhythmic voicings up the neck. Really good stuff in here and this should propel my little adventures into this theory quite nicely.

http://www.guitarworld.com/deep-andy-aledort-how-create-inventive-rhythm-parts-connecting-mode-based-chord-voicings-video

And some work in progress while trying to get up to snuff for the CD sessions again:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3667682/Music/Etude7_Op60.mp3
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3667682/Music/Estudio.mp3

And working some more on one of my favorite songs, Bistro Fada. Really need to get the B section down! I have a similar problem with Capricho Arabe, but that one is more about the B section being a barred notation, I might just have to rewrite it to physically play it! Anyway, Bistro's A section, with original recorded variations intact more or less:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3667682/Music/bistro_fada_wip1.mp3
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Reply #1993 on: December 06, 2014, 08:52:13 PM

So, been messing about with jazz chords more, and now I am craving a nylon-string hybrid guitar.

I have now tried all these, all with solid tops.

Guild GN-5
Yamaha NTX700
Cordoba Orchestra w/ cutaway (solid cedar top)
Cordoba Fusion 12 Maple
Cordoba GK Studio
Kremona Verea

Next step up would be solid backs and sides too, but nobody seems to carry those in store.

Guild -- kinda dry.

Yamaha -- Great blend across the strings, but  it wasa bit plasticky and tinny played acoustic, sounded good plugged in. Alas, they don't have the higher models to try in store.

Orchestra with cedar -- my favorite, I think. Warm tone, kinda dark.

Maple -- leans to the treble, wasn't as balanced, IMHO.

GK Studio -- thinner again, thin body, meant for flamenco, seemed like. There was also a GK Studio "negra" -- that one was pretty nice too, but action was a bit high for my tastes. Nicer tone than the spruce ones.

Kremona -- a real surprise. Very nice tone. Less playable than the Orchestra, though, it was bigger and felt like a chunkier neck (not width, but thickness). Just felt more like a tank. This bigger body also made it super boomy and feedback prone when plugged in.

Now I need to drop way way more Xmas hints to my wife. :)

For those here who play nylon (Sky!) what do you play? I had the higher end Yamaha's recommended -- NTX1200's -- but nobody has them in stores. :( The 700 just didn't impress me.
Sky
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Reply #1994 on: December 07, 2014, 05:05:10 PM

I once played a Taylor cutaway nylon that was amazing....and I've never found a good once since. So far the cheap Lucida Artista LG-755 I paid $300 for used (with case, friend price) is unbeatable. I always pop into a music store while traveling and I've yet to find a better one. The bass strings give a nice loud, warm bass and the nylons just sing with a purity I can't get enough of.

I don't like pickups and mic mine. I didn't like the mic'd sound until I got the ribbon mic (MXL R144). Still tweaking the ribbon mic placement to reduce boom (around the sound hole), because it's a loud, warm guitar so the ribbon mic being warm enhances that a bit too much. I pair it with the SM57 pointed at the 12th for the trebley bits.
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