Guitar thread

[Shockeye]

Speaking of Donald "Duck" Dunn, the 25th Anniversary edition of "The Blues Brothers" comes out on DVD today.

[AOFanboi]

Why someone would want to play bass in a metal band is beyond me. You're going to get mixed out in the end anyways.

*points at Steve Harris of Iron Maiden as counter-example*

That said, it seems that the Metallica/Ozzy switcheroo has brought them a bass player that knows what you wrote to be true, and thus aims for stage showmanship instead.

[Margalis]

Iron Maiden doesn't have a lot of low register drums, which is probably why Harris can play bass the way he does.

[Sky]

/rerail 

I am looking forward to this game (it is in no sense a virtual world).  How the hell did you guys get into that wierdo musician chat anyhow?

I am legally bound from answering this question.

Anyway, Harris is out front because he, you know, started the band and wrote most of the music. It's pretty much the Steve Harris Band, always has been. But as a former metal bassist, I agree with the sentiment, it's certainly possible to have a good metal mix with a strong bass. I would've mixed out Newstead, too. I never found him very interesting on the bass, I really like Trujillo, though. I hope he gets some love on the next album (I actually like St. Anger, too)

The 7th turnaround I refer to is a 3-note chord the way I play it. I actually used bass chords quite a bit, which is why I know how finicky they are, we had one guitarist so I'd do a lot of higher octave playing while he did solo work. And intervals...I do love me some intervals.

[Sky]

Funny Duck Dunn was brought up...about a week ago I was talking to my local blues buddy and I realized he hasn't had a bass player in his band in two years or so (he duets with a drummer ala white stripes, still a great sound).

So I ragged on him for a bit and looks like I'll probably get the gig. He just told me to work over some Albert King material (King played with the memphis folks - Booker T and Co, including Duck). Duck uses a lot of solid basics, but adds so much flavor to it, it'll take a while to get all the intricacies down, but I can pull off a lot of that stuff without a sweat (as in, all but one track off Born Under a Bad Sign learned in the time it took to play the track, same as this blues buddy's original material).

But it's all about the nuances. Takes a couple minutes to learn the song, a couple years to master the nuances, especially since this is new ground for me, tonally I skipped a lot of theory that didn't apply to minor keys (:(). Fun stuff.

I figured the downside would be my right hand, when I was doing open mics they literally broke out in blood blisters and I bled all over the place. But oddly, it's my left thumb that's killing me, I guess it got out of shape for those long stretches on bass (I have stubby fingers) and increased pressure.

But it's feeling pretty good and once I strengthen that thumb some more, I'll be playing in a blues outfit! Woot and whatnot. Even though my girlfriend feels I should be fronting my own, playing guitar. She just doesn't understand paying dues and learning on the road. What better way to enhance my blues guitar than playing with an excellent blues guitarist, even if it's on bass. I'm still learning all his tricks. Oh, and free beer.

[stray]

Dunn is great, but I think I learned more about bass playing from listening to James Jamerson (and Paul McCartney, who's very much like Jamerson in many ways). Maybe it's my preference for Motown over Stax, I don't know.

Albert King is the shit as well. I hate to say it, but umm....Stevie Ray Vaughn....I'm sorry, but he's just trying to be Albert King (and I do like SRV, don't take me wrong). Also, as much as I like BB King, it's kind of sad that everyone knows who BB is, but Albert's barely remembered outside of guitarist circles these days.....But that could just be because BB has had the fortune of living a long time. Albert's influence on modern electric blues is just as far reaching as BB's. They're like the two branches that set the tone for what is blues today..But only BB gets the mention, and the sound that is Albert's is attributed to Stevie Ray.

Anyways, that's my rant..

Blues Power (always a good track...)

[Nebu]

I'm the guilty party that brought "Duck" into this.  

I've been playing bass for over 20 years now.  As I've grown and matured (yes, they are different things), I've come to realize that more isn't necessarily better.  When I was in my early twenties I got all caught up in technical bass (Lee, Squire, etc.).  Now that I'm older and more secure in my playing, I find that it's more about "the groove" than it is about the notes.  That's something I've always loved about Dunn.  The guy has all the technical skills needed to be a flashy bassist, but would rather find his place in the music.  

Then again, it could be that my fingers just don't move like they used to... damn those synapses.

[Sky]

That's one thing my girlfriend was concerned with: this guy I'll be jamming with is pretty basic, and I tend to be pretty fancypantsy on guitar. I had to explain it's all about that groove and subtlety.

SRV...I don't really listen to his stuff since I started a serious blues journey through time. He's ok, but he's also real..I dunno, clean and commercial, like a more talented Robert Cray. Too slick imo. Sure, he can crush that texas guitar, and his Little Wing is my very favorite song ever, but overall I don't give him much ear time.

Otoh, Albert's BUBS, which I mentioned above as the album I went to, is one of my very favorites. His voice is just so mellifluous, almost like Orbison on the ballads. His left-handed crazy bending is mind-blowing, and then adding in the band...just some great stuff.

Some other great stuff I've been wearing out: John Mayall's Bluesbreakers with Clapton: such an incredible album. I'm working through some of that on guitar, in fact (I got the majority of All Your Love in one playthrough, woot!). Clapton plays a lot of minor pentatonic, which is my safety zone, so I love jamming his stuff, it flows off my fingers, whereas SRV is a struggle because of the texas shuffle style. Also why I can identify with Pagey really well, too: he does a lot of pentatonic minor with modal coloring. Clapton's From the Cradle is pretty intense, and I've got the DVD he made during the sessions for the Me & Mr. Johnson sessions...I actually like the sessions more than the finished product. And of course, my beloved Robert Johnson cd...I'm years away from his incredible fingerpicking style, but I'm whittling away at it slowly. And Muddy...always listening to Muddy, my first bluesman. Gotta track down that album I had as a kid, a live Muddy disk with Johhny Winter on guitar (which turned me onto that crazy mofo).

So much good stuff.

[Sky]

Albert King is the shit as well. I hate to say it, but umm....Stevie Ray Vaughn....I'm sorry, but he's just trying to be Albert King (and I do like SRV, don't take me wrong).

Hope you got that tune, gotta be fast when I'm leeching webspace :)

[stray]

He's ok, but he's also real..I dunno, clean and commercial, like a more talented Robert Cray. Too slick imo. Sure, he can crush that texas guitar, and his Little Wing is my very favorite song ever, but overall I don't give him much ear time.

You know what it is? It's that damn in-phase sound (2 and 4 positions on the Strat pickups) that Cray exclusively uses, and Stevie/modern Clapton to an extent. It's good for a lot of things, but for the blues, there's just no balls in it. I don't understand why these guys, who are some of the best blues guitarists ever, gravitate towards that sound. You can hear Stevie's weaker moments in that Stormy clip, for example, and it's only when he's flipped in the in-phase position. Out of phase, he grows his balls back.

Almost everything Clapton does these days (on electrics, that is) sounds sterile and weak for the same reason too.

Little Wing has balls because SRV was doing Jimi, who played in the neck.

Don't take me wrong though...These guys could outplay me for all eternity, even with a shitty tone. It isn't the playing I'm knocking, for sure.

[Sky]

No, I understand about the criticism disclaimer ;)

Like when I was explaining why I didn't like Tull's guitarist to my girl. I told her that's why I have to be good, I have to be able to back up my opinion with my own playing...eventually. She laughs because I don't compare myself to my peers in the area, I compare myself to Page, Clapton, King, etc. The way it should be imo. Why pat myself on the back because I'm better than some podunk nobody, anyway?

Found an old copy of Cakewalk (9 iirc, with the manual for 8, heh) an old bass buddy gave me years ago. Without the gimping of shareware (no multitracking) I'd been using, I've got to start laying some shit down! I'm not used to cleaning things up for recording, my loose playing style + listening perfectionism run at counter purposes... The bass gig thing is another thing I didn't need on top of trying to work in more guitar.

Gaming? I remember when I had time for that...

[stray]

Well, good luck with all that, man. I hope you have fun.

I haven't done much of anything myself in the way of gigging, or even jamming, for a while now. Not because I don't want to, or because I'm busy....I'm just lacking the motivation or something.

[Sky]

I've got a new favorite blues album: Hound Dog Taylor's first.

Holy crap man. If you like the blues, check this puppy out. I'm using it for bass practice right now, but the guitarwork is phenomenal as well. Leans a bit to the boogie side of the blues. This is the cd that will clinch my spot in my buddy's band ;)

I also found out I'm improving on slide, I had my acoustic and slide out when doing my first listen and my girl was pretty impressed (though that's not real tough, heh). Improving from totally sucking isn't saying much, heh. Slide ain't easy (good slide anyway...haven't explored open tunings yet ala Derek Trucks, Allman, ad nauseum).

[stray]

I love slide too, but admittedly, I'm not too good at it. I don't play blues slide much though....I use open minor tunings mainly. Kind of gives it a more arabesque/gypsy feel.

[edit] I'll check that CD out.

[Sky]

Try soloing in that open minor tuning over major chords, that's how a lot of blues go. I'm struggling learning bass lines for blues because there is so much major keying, I keep hitting sour notes :P But it's coming along pretty damn good, I've got a few good patterns with fills and if it calls for a pentatonic bass line, I'm golden.

I was hitting up some guitar sites, and I found a 'lesson' that got me thinking. It was for 'dexterity', just chromatic patterns all up and down the neck. That got me to wondering...do you guys do that kind of stuff? I used to when I first started many revolutions ago, but I found it to be a waste of time. I get my dexterity practice by playing tough pieces or by focusing on tough passages (like repeating a section of string skipping or whatever). I basically don't like playing stuff that's not musical, especially if I can get the same benefit from playing music instead (I tend to the shred side, which bugs me :P).

Still loving that Hound Dog album, got Derek Truck's live album, too. Trucks' live album is a nice melange of styles, blues, jazz, latin, african. Not something I'd listen to every day, but some great jams in there.

[stray]

Try soloing in that open minor tuning over major chords, that's how a lot of blues go.

Well, the one I mainly use is open G minor tuning. All I have to do is put the second string back to B, and I've got major G (ala Keef)....So, that works pretty good for blues. I use open D a lot too, which is a blues tuning (i.e. Robert Johnson), but you can do other things with it too.

[Sky]

Stray, don't kick me :)

Just bought a Gibson SG.

No idea I wanted one, I spent saturday with a guitar tech at a local music shop going through about 50 guitars (a fraction of their selection, just the good stuff). Played a wide variety of strats, because I thought I wanted one...but it's just not versatile enough (and I dislike the out-of-phase positions). Played some expeeeensive Les Pauls, including the Black Beauty (omg...I didn't plug it in, the pickups are too sweet), which I actually didn't care for. The neck was a baseball bat. Went through a couple Schecters, almost bought one with a sweet neck with an abalone vine inlay all up the neck and another with abalone around the perimeter of the fretboard..but they just looked a little too slick for me.

Played some great Gretsches, but again, they are a little too limiting for my main guitar (it'll be a while before I can swing another one as I'm saving for a mortgage). Also worked over some Teles, I really like those guitars, but again, limited sound. I can definitely see a Gretsch, Strat, and Tele in my future, though.

Finally narrowed it down to a sweet Strat and the SG. I had no intention of buying an SG, but when I finally plugged them in, there was no contest. All the guys at the store agreed I was really tearing it up on the SG compared to the Strat, it was pretty funny how the tone made that much of a difference in my playing.

'61 Reissue, standard red stain finish. Got in the car and remembered this thread. D'oh! ;) Anyway, I'm pretty happy with it.

So, that works pretty good for blues. I use open D a lot too, which is a blues tuning (i.e. Robert Johnson), but you can do other things with it too.

Actually he seems to use an oddball open Aadd7 or something. The exact tuning escapes me just now, I'm still lazily working slide in standard tuning.

[stray]

Hey, a 62 RI is FAR better than what I was gonna sell you (though for much cheaper). Mine was a SG Special (did end up selling it though).

Anyways...Congratulations, man. Kick ass guitar. I'd probably have my SG around still, but it helped pay for that Vibro-King I ended up buying. I'm sure I'll get around to owning another some day. Probably a 60's model as well (that 60's slim neck is much better than what they do on current models imo).

[Sky]

Going to pick it up tonight, I'm totally stoked. So is my girlfriend...since she doesn't have to hear me say "Damn I need a new guitar" anymore. Now it's "Damn I need a new amp", I was also checking out tube combos surreptitiously :P There was one sweet vintage tweed 2x12 that really sounded shweet...

She also loves Derek Trucks, I didn't tell her until I chose the SG that it's what he plays. Bonus points with the little woman there. We have a deal - she can marry Trucks if I can marry Susan Tedeschi ;)

On the playing front, been making great progress on acoustic blues, getting my foundations. Working turnarounds and vamps and bridges, etc, then applying them to a lot of tunes from Johnson to Clapton, Muddy to Buddy. Listening to a lot of Buddy Guy and Muddy lately.

[Sky]

OMG why didn't I buy a new guitar years ago!?!

This guitar is so sweet I can't stop playing it. Brought it into work, ostensibly to play show & tell, but really just an excuse to play it some more :)

[stray]

Now it's time to buy more  :-D.

[Sky]

I wish. I'm cool for now, I've got two great guitars now, the SG and the Alvarez jumbo acoustic I bought a few months back. Really going to buy a lot more once I get settled into a nice house in the country, though. Might have a line on a used banjo (gratis) so I don't have to refurb my grandfather's. Then maybe a mandolin. After that, I'll start considering the laundry list: Telecaster, Strat, Gretsch (or Gibson semi), baritone (Jag, maybe), P bass, Ricky bass, dobro, etc, etc, etc.

But for now I'm more than happy.

Actually, as I mention above, now I'm thinking about a nice little tube combo amp...

[stray]

I'm starting to realize lately JUST how much bending is a whole discipline in it's own right.

Of course, I've always known how to bend....But to really make 3 or 4 notes sing, and flow into each other: That isn't easy.

[Sky]

Yep. And unlike my el cheapo, the SG is set up for very wide bends. I should make a run at some Albert King 2 and 2-1/2 step bending again, literally couldn't bend my old guitar enough to hit them. The SG is like bending butter. If that makes any sense :P

The more I try to work on scales and now chords, the more I have to remember to focus on just a handful of notes and work the shit out of them. My inner critic keeps popping up and saying I need to play an arpeggio or something. I need a popup blocker in my brain. I'm still feeling pretty bad about my playing, but for the first time since I've been dating my girl, I said it sounded good. I mean, it does sound good at times, I guess it's the first time I told her so...odd.

[stray]

The SG is like bending butter. If that makes any sense :P

Yeah, though I do like Fenders more, and the old 7.25 radius (newer Fenders are almost 10), I fret out a lot. I don't have my SG anymore, but it's was always better for this kind of stuff.

[Raph]

You electric players crack me up. :)

Then again, I am not much of a gear-head.

[stray]

You electric players crack me up. :)

Then again, I am not much of a gear-head.

Ah, I love my acoustic too! Been playing more of that lately actually.

But yeah, I sound pretty silly when it comes to gear. Ever since I got my new amp and Jazzmaster though, the G.A.S. (Gear Acquisition Syndrome) has subsided. I haven't bought a thing.

[edit]

But...The same madness still applies to all instruments for me. It's a matter of timbre and playability. I could never truly be happy with just one sound and feel. I wish I could though...

[Arnold]

I had a bad case of GAS when I got my first good job, and I bought a lot of gear.  I was up to 5 electrics at one point (now I'm at 2).  I still have 5 tube amps though.  But mostly, I've been playing acoustic these days and working on the playing/singing thing.

[Sky]

Bah, I'm no gearhead. When I was playing bass professionally, I was using a hock shop bass with a hock shop amp. And it was originally the amp powering our singer, pre-PA days when he sang through a 4x12. I like things as simple as possible, with a basic decent tone which I then work with to find a good tone. I'd really like to get a new amp, looks like I'll be playing Oblivion on low settings! With the new guitar, though, my Boss GT6 got some legs and sounds decent enough, I guess. Sky want toobs.

I have crappy tone, but playing through a few Sabbath cds last night (been a looong time since I've jammed metal, though Sab is almost blues a lot of the time), it was sounding really nice with minimal effects. I was in a serious hammering groove, Iommi style. It was a nice break from what I've been working on. My main goal right now is visualization, being able to mentally see more options so I can more closely play what I hear in my head. I can often do this with Em/B mixolydian, but I need to work over more scales and get them all memorized. Blah, I hate that stuff, but it makes me better at what I love, improvisation.

Acoustic? I love mine, read back a few pages, Raph ;) Got one earlier this year.

[Miguel]

Walking lines on the bass (in blues) is exceedingly easy if you remember 4 notes: 1, 3, 5, and 7 (and yes, that's *major* third).  Every other lead in tone around those notes is legal as well, and sounds damn good.  Bass lines in classical I-IV-V blues changes (12 bar blues) are centered around the root not so you are always safe with those 1-3-5-7 notes, regardless of the key.

As to why this sounds good over a pentatonic blues scale, well, I can't explain the thoery, I just know it works.  Guitarists rarely riff around the minor third so this may be why.  I also walk chromatically to the root of each chord change from whereever I am, since all those lead-in tones are 'legal' as well.

Of course this isn't jazz, so you will spend a lot of time on the roots and 5ths of the chords, especially if the guitar player is way far out there in their soloing.  People don't like it if someone isn't constantly reminding them of the chords!

[Sky]

That's what trips me up, the difference between bass lines that sound good with the rock-n-rolly 1,3,5,7 and stuff that sounds good with the walking pentatonic. Just a lack of experience in blues bass, in a way, since most of my blues bass actually came from Sabbath :P I can walk a /mean/ pentatonic line, which bleeds over into my soloing and vice versa (in soloing my blues pentatonic is often merged with various minor scales). But not having a firm grasp of major keys, the 1357 line always sounds like shit if I improv away from standard patterns, mostly because I don't know all the sweet spots.

I'm often on the minor third as a soloist, actually. With a 1/4 step bend, it's very bluesy. I dunno, it's just a great tone all around, not sure why people wouldn't use it.

My next project is a big ol' fretmap so I can start paying attention to note names in places I just have memorized, and to start using that to pay attention to notes I play alot and also as a reminder of coming back to tonal center and to make this a ridiculous runon sentence, also becoming more aware of my melodic motion through changes. Basically trying to pull my theory education back up through the decades of mental sludge I've built up...

[Miguel]

I'm often on the minor third as a soloist, actually. With a 1/4 step bend, it's very bluesy. I dunno, it's just a great tone all around, not sure why people wouldn't use it.

I think I stated it badly in my original post:  actually, the minor third is a *great* note in the pentatonic blues scale, however most of the time guitarists don't start their solo phrasings on it.  Roots and fifths are more traditional places to start, however of course there are exceptions.

The way I think if it is like this:  if I am in a Bflat blues progression, I know that I have four major (or strong) notes that I can emphasive in the chord:  Bflat (the root), D (the major third), F (the major fifth), and Aflat (the seventh).  I always start a walking pattern at the root, and go from there:  if you are jamming with only a guitarist, you are the only person there to establish the root of the chord so it's important that you do so.  If you have a keyboard or piano player with you, he/she will often leave out the roots in order not to tread on your playing.

So a common progression on the first chord (Bf7th) would be something like this (the first four beats leading into the IV chord):

Bf -> D -> F -> Af

Then we go to the IV chord, which is Ef7th:

Ef -> G -> Bf -> Df

Then for the V chord (F7th):

F -> A -> C -> Ef

You could play these four notes and it would sound perfect, since of course the progression is based off the notes of these chords.  However this would be incredibly boring.

So the 'trick' is that you can walk chromatically to the next chord from any of these notes, and it sounds perfect.  Let's take the first example:

Bf -> D -> F -> Af

We are in Bf, and we want to go to Ef, so lets go 'towards' this note:

Bf -> D -> F -> E -> Ef

So once we got on the F, we descend down chromatically towards Ef.  We can do this on the Ef chord going back into Bf:

Ef -> G -> Af -> A -> Bf

This would be a chromatic trend upwards toward Bf.

This sounds good because it leads the ear towards the chord you are moving towards, and the ear picks that up and 'completes' the progresssion.

I have an MP3 of my band playing a progression like this, with bass lines that follow this pattern.  Try this link
to download it.  If someone can host permanently that would be great.

[Sky]

(from stray's aborted true confessions derail)

I've been jamming along with major key stuff, trying to get some good riffs going. It's so funny to have a huge trick bag I can't touch while playing. My girlfriend thinks it sounds great (she's a former pianist), because I have to focus on strict melody without riffing at all. Damn her being right sometimes.

But I still crush when a minor key comes on, I can play just about any genre in minor keys.

I've really gotta get into the stuff Miguel is mentioning, playing more interesting stuff over progressions, and developing some good progressions and chords.

[Nebu]

I have a question for you guys:

I'm a bass player but get dragged into playing guitar quite often (usually because I like to play rhythm and sing harmony and have no desire to solo or vamp much).  I've been playing a strat or tele most of my years and have been toying with the idea of buying a Gibson.  I've had my eye on a late 80's - early 90's Les Paul Studio double cutaway but won't have a chance to play it before buying.  I've played a few Les Pauls and I love the sustain and tone.  Have any of you played the double cutaway and have an opinion to share?  How does the double cutaway vary from the standard Les Paul.  Also, are there other guitars you'd recommend?  I've thought about a Rick or Gretsch as well. I had an old Gibson ES325 a while back and liked it a bit.

Thanks!

[stray]

The DC is obviously lighter....In Gibson terms at least (all mahogany bodies are pretty heavy to begin with). Upper fret access compared to an LP is easier as well.

Soundwise, as far as I'm concerned, the DC's, SG's, and LP's all sound the same when equipped with the same electronics. Besides the 60's models and remakes (like Sky's new SG....Which has a slimmer neck), you'll get the Gibson solid body sound and feel from any of them.

The ES325 is a different beast though, and if you like that, don't expect the same. They're louder, nastier, more prone to feedback, and don't carry the same sustain as a solidbody. Not to say loud and nasty isn't good though! Just different.

Rics are similar, and if it's a Ric with single coils, it even more nasty. Just with more high end bite ala Fender.

So what do you like anyways? Fat, easily overdriven chords, with smooth leads and long sustain? Get the DC if the price is good. Or do you want something more like the Tele and Strat sounds you've been messing with?