Guitar thread

[Arnold]

I've only seen Vai once, with David Lee Roth on the Eat 'Em And Smile tour (Tesla opening behind their debut album, they kicked all kinds of ass, too), with Sheehan and Bissonette. Great show.

I saw Tesla a couple years ago, in Sacramento (their home town), right after they reformed.  They kicked major ass.  I forgot how many good songs they had; almost every one they played was a sing-along.  Plus, they had a beer cooler on stage.

[Sky]

Since Stray whined about me ignoring this thread :)

I found this clip among a bunch of guitar riff clips when I was cleaning out my data drive. I like to "jot" down ideas and back them up to cd every now and again, so I don't lose them. It was the only bass riff among hundreds of guitar riffs, according to the file metadata I recorded it last october.

I remember doing it, it is the germ of a song idea I have on guitar that I was trying to flesh out with a bass line and come up with some bass hooks. This is just me trying to jam out a few ideas, so it's pretty rough both in content and timing, lots of pauses and crap. But as I don't play bass any more, and only recently started playing guitar again, I thought it was pretty decent, the latter half is closer to the style I played professionally, I was pretty classical-heavy (hey, that was the era for it!).

Not much, but it's something to keep the thread alive :) Some day I'll actually record something worth listening to, I'm not much for polished recordings, heh.

[stray]

You sound like a Geezer. 

Pretty cool. I've got stuff laying around here that I should go through....I "notebook" just about everything, but haven't put together something substantial in a while. It's hard to get a good rockin' song going without some friends around (for me at least).

Also been buying a lot of "guitar" albums lately. Getting CD versions of some old albums (Band of Gypsies and Jeff Beck for the win). Also been getting a lot of this guy. Nels Cline. He's the bees knees, I tell you. If Di Meola was in Sonic Youth, it'd sound like him. Some MP3 samples here. I recommend getting the "Instrumentals" album.

[Sky]

Geezer 'taught' me how to play bass. I worship at the altar of Geezer. I love Cliff, but to me Geezer is what a bass player should be. Heck, lots of my blues guitar riffs are Geezer riffs, too :) So...thanks!

I hear you on trying to write without a band, it's tough. I always had a songwriting partner in my singer, but it's been over a decade since I've seen him.

Speaking of guitar albums, which I'm always buying, finally got the cd version of Ozzy's Tribute to Randy. Goddamned I love Randy. He's so aggro when he plays, listening to his Iron Man or Paranoid is refreshing. Also got Clapton's From Cradle to Grave disc, some great blues soloing on there.

[stray]

I've wondered what would have happened to EVH's rep if Randy hadn't died. Rhoads was just as good (well, maybe that's arguable), but much different as well. Would Eddie still have been the most influential 80's rock guitarist? Would there have been as many imitators?

[stray]

I'll just post some Cline clips directly. Most of this is his Jazzy stuff, not the noise rock-ish stuff.

Beer Bottle Collection

Square King

Bath

Cause for Concern

Ghost of the Pinata

Anyways, I'm always happy when I stumble upon an indie/punk musician who's really skilled on his/her instrument. It's like the best of both worlds to me. Too bad that there's very few of them.

[Sky]

That's good stuff. I think if I were playing with a band currently, I'd be a lot looser like that, as I enjoy just jamming along. But playing alone, I focus a lot more on not only technique, but note selection and a hundred other critical things (critical in that I self-criticize a lot while playing alone, whereas I'm more likely to forget minor flubs in favor of the overall groove when playing with others).

Bath was very nice, but they all rocked. Cause for Concern reminds me of my scale jams. When I get tired of running scales, I start to make little melodies that still traverse back and forth, up and down. I like the syncopation in the last clip. I saw the Holmes Brothers sunday (completely incredible, from soul to blues to gospel, and awesome guitar work) and I noticed I tend to watch the drummer more than anyone else, part of why I can always lock into that groove, and why 'stock' drummers bore me. I like them to constantly change up the rhythym...to give me ideas!

Really bums me out that cat from Syracuse lives so far away and has a band (with his brother, so a solid band connection). The freeform classical/metal stuff we were doing on open mic nights was completely fucking amazing, wish I had recorded it. It was a constant jam, him throwing out new rhythyms and me weaving them together, him feeding off what I played and viceversa, just a great experience, and pretty much what I'm looking for in a band. Start with a drummer like that and then try to find other musicians who can keep up.

[Arnold]

Geezer 'taught' me how to play bass. I worship at the altar of Geezer. I love Cliff, but to me Geezer is what a bass player should be. Heck, lots of my blues guitar riffs are Geezer riffs, too :) So...thanks!

Geezer kicks ass!  I love how he's so tight when it's time for the monolithic riffs, be he gets loose and groovy when one of those isn't happening.

[stray]

I made out like a bandit recently....Picked up a Vibro-King (i.e. the Holy Fucking Grail of Tone) off eBay for cheap.

A $2100 hand wired, Fender Custom Shop amp for $900. Kind of different from other Fenders, in that it doesn't just produce a Blackface or Tweed type sound. It'll do the Stevie Ray or Dick Dale thing, but it'll go into MC5-ish territory too (Townsend and Chris Isaak both use them these days, if that gives you any indication of it's versatility and how good it sounds). It's a 3x10, which makes it a little different from other Fenders as well.

It has a built in Fender Reverb Unit (not the standard kind, but the old school stand alone 3 knobbed one, like this), and I can get a perfect Surf sound out of it. Especially with the Jazzmaster. Only downside is that it's a single channel 60 watter...Which means, if I want overdrive, it has to be CRANKED......But when it is, it's one of the best.



I'll take a snapshot of my guitar with it soon.

I'm downsizing on just about everything I own now. Besides the occasional stompbox, I don't need anything else.

[stray]

So anyways, here's my new rig...I got rid of all of my electrics except for a Tele and Jazzmaster (including the baritone that sparked this thread). No more amps except this bad boy:

.

[Sky]

That's a sweet combo! The 3x10 is interesting, I was playing through my 7x10 (an 8x10 with a bad speaker ;)) and it is real nice and punchy, but now I'm playing through my 1x15 (dean markley cab with an ev 400W full range 15" in it).

I really need to forget the mortgage for a couple months and buy a decent guitar. I've been playing a lot more lately, trying to master the happier styles, less doom and sludge playing. Recently I've been studying the Allmans and Betts, much to the delight of my girl. Just got the 2-disc Setzer Orchestra live set, it smokes. Also got in a Rev. Horton Heat compilation, really been stretching out and it feels great.

And my electric strat knockoff is dying in a big way, the electronics are shot, and it's not worth fixing. I've had a big eye for a couple Epiphones, the Epi les paul custom and the Epi les paul baritone, or perhaps a real strat. I'm pretty excited about it, hopefully I'll have some pics to share soon!

[stray]

Those Epi's are great guitars for the money....There's just too damn heavy for me personally. Les Pauls in general, I mean. I've gotten wimpy over the years or something.

I've been eyeing a Gretsch Duo Jet lately, but it's the same deal. Heavy as shit, but man, they sound great. They look sweet too:



Anyways, go for it....Just get it out of the way :) Good luck on whatever you get.

[Sky]

That Gretsch is teh sexay!

[Sky]

Listening to all this Setzer and Horton really, really makes that Gretsch look teh sexay! If only for that nice tremolo system, I don't use a tremolo bar (I'm a bender with crazy vibrato), but for the psychobilly, it's essential.

Also, I was at the shop my buddy works at and one of the teachers there thought I sounded very rockabilly, he thought that was my 'specialty' from the jam I was playing. At the time I found it odd, but I can hear it in my chording and phrasing now that I'm listening to more of it.

I'm not sure what the heck I'm good at any more, classical, metal, blues, rockabilly, rock, southern rock...I don't care so long as it sounds good! It's interesting having my girl listen to me play (she loves the guitar, luckily), she picks out so many more mishmashed influences and trends in my playing, it's been a great analytical tool.

Edit: Holy crap, it's not cheap, though! $2700 for the bigsby model @ musician's friend!! Yowzers, but it IS nice...

[stray]

Listening to all this Setzer and Horton really, really makes that Gretsch look teh sexay! If only for that tremolo system, I don't use a tremolo bar (I'm a bender with crazy vibrato), but for the psychobilly, it's essential.

Also, I was at the shop my buddy works at and one of the teachers there thought I sounded very rockabilly, he thought that was my 'specialty' from the jam I was playing. At the time I found it odd, but I can hear it in my chording and phrasing now that I'm listening to more of it.

I'm not sure what the heck I'm good at any more, classical, metal, blues, rockabilly, rock, southern rock...I don't care so long as it sounds good! It's interesting having my girl listen to me play (she loves the guitar, luckily), she picks out so many more mishmashed influences and trends in my playing, it's been a great analytical tool.

The guy who taught me how to play was into all of this 60's instrumental type stuff (like surf), so I think it's always resonated with me the most. Not just surf necessarily, but the general approach. Spacious reverb, echos, not really blues based. That could be anything from Television, Sonic Youth, My Bloody Valentine, Surf, or Spaghetti Western music. Then again, I'm just as enamored with Link Wray...Who was more in-your-face and rockin'. I've also been...for all intents and purposes....into "punk" (then again, that word means little these days).

I guess you could say that I play slow surf (i.e. Spaghetti).....Just with more "noise". I like single note type riffs drowned in reverb, but when I play chords, I like them to be hard and ring out. And sometimes, I just play "noise". *shrug*  I need to upload some clips.

Not that I don't like anything else, but playing-wise, I'm just comfortable along those lines. I can do a little "Angus", or "Jimi", or "Kerry King"....But to be honest, it isn't really happening. That much I know.

[Sky]

To me, punk is old  CoC (though the newer stuff is cool, too, Pepper Keenan rocks), Accused, Black Flag, the traditionals like the Pistols/Ramones/Clash/Kennedies, Butthole Surfers, Fear, stuff that was raw and uncommercial. Not so much the Good Charlotte or Green Day, though those are decent punky pop bands imo. I listened to a lot of that stuff, still have some LPs around I think, because I was in the skate scene when I was a kid, back when Tony Hawk was making videos in his backyard. I recently dug up my Fear tape because they butchered "Let's Have a War" from The Record on that eMotive APC disc, which I thought sucked (a first for MJ Keenan imo). "I Love Living in the City" is a classic. The Surfer's "Lady Sniff" was one of my favorites for rawness, with their entire "Rembrandt Pussyhorse" album being one of my favorites of all time, stuff like "Waiting for Jimmy to Kick", "Whirling Hall of Blades", and the hauntingly cool "Creep in the Cellar".

I should upload some clips, too. I moved the room around and everything is unplugged. When I first started playing again a couple years ago, I recorded everything, because I have CRS (can't remember shit). Now that I'm getting a little better and actually trying to write stuff I could use the focus of the recording. I'm just way too jammy, my girl cracks up because I have exercises designed to play boring rythyms without going off: throwing in fills, trying for alternate fingerings, etc. I don't think it's possible :P I think my best is two repetitions of a 12 bar blues/rockabilly riff before I start noodling about.

[Llava]

I know nothing about any of this.

But my cousin and brother are both very big into music.

Here are a couple songs my cousin digitally recorded.  All him, all original stuff.  Just in case you guys want to hear it.

If you're impatient- it's definitely Vai or Satriani inspired, reminds me of The Black Mages (Japanese rock band who cover Final Fantasy music)

http://travisaustin.bluedomino.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/breakpoint.mp3
http://travisaustin.bluedomino.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/blue.mp3

Now I will step back out of this thread, into a subject where I belong.

[Sky]

That's some cool guitar work. It does sound a lot like the Vai/Satriani thing. I enjoyed it, though it's not really my thing: a bit too slick. And I hate synths. I blame Eddie VH and Geddy Lee for that.

The composition is nice, too. A bit more dynamic than most one-man projects, and the drums didn't annoy me, which often happens with drum machines. Personally, I intend to play my own acoustic drums when I put my stuff together, even if it means it's messier.

I also have the benefit of a great bass player...I find it funny (and sometimes frustrating) that I'm /still/ a better bass player than guitar player, even though I put the bass down almost ten years ago and have only been focusing on guitar for the last couple years. I actually started as a thrash metal guitarist, then learned classical in school, then picked up the bass when every bass player we auditioned sucked (our original bass player was from a Rush cover band). When I was playing open mics to see if I could still rock the stage (I can, phew), it was funny how nobody believed (from my playing) that I wasn't really a bass player anymore, hadn't played in years.

Then they saw my right hand fingers dripping blood after two songs, from the burst blood blisters on the tips...I play hard, and had no callouses...but it did prove my point...Anyway, one project I've got going on right now is restoring the neck on my bass, it was gunkified to hell and back from being in storage.

[stray]

I had a friend who told me I was a better bass player than a guitar player (I had a guitar in my hand at the time)....

I was *this close* to knocking him across the head with it.

Heh, it's true though...I just won't let anyone else tell me that 

[AOFanboi]

Me? I play guitars, not mmogs.

Ah, aiming for that level 60 Metallica world tour end game? You need to kill the Kirk Hammet boss mob first.

See? You cannot escape!

[stray]

Kill Kirk Hammett? He's the only one left that shouldn't be smacked across the head.

[Merusk]

Every shmoe wants to play lead/rhythm.  The real men play Bass.   

[stray]

I play both....As do most guitarists. I rarely meet a straight up "bass player". They're just guitarists who see bass as having less of a barrier to entry.

Besides, this is Metallica we're talking about. Why someone would want to play bass in a metal band is beyond me. You're going to get mixed out in the end anyways.

[Merusk]

Playing and being are two different things.  I could give a crap either way as I do neither and was just parroting something I'd read years ago.   However, as you said, you get mixed out in the end*, so you have to REALLY want to play it to be the bassist, IMO. 

*Unless  of course you're Burton oldschool or Terjilligjilo on that newest piece of shit.. Damnit let Kirk play!

[stray]

I don't mean to derail further, but I don't know what the difference is in "playing a bass" and "being a bass player".  Care to explain that to me? Is it some kind of Lemmy thing, or what? :) I mean, I guess I prefer the timbre and feel of guitars more often than other instruments, but all I really am is a musician.

[Merusk]

Yeah, it's a philosophy and a mindset thing.  Kind of the difference between playing an instrument and being a musician.  I can play the sax, but I'm no musician. It's all technical to me, I have no heart in it.  You can play a bass, but that doesn't make you a bassist if you're just playing it because they won't let you play lead or rhythm. You'll suck at it because your heart won't be in it, even if you're technically perfect.  Just MNSHO.

[stray]

All I'm trying to say is that the same "dedication" that requires a musician to be proficient on bass is the same dedication that's used when they pick up a guitar. With basses and guitars, there isn't much to learn to switch from one and have the same effect on the other.

All fall under the disicpline of "string instruments", then further differentiate themselves in such ways like violins and cellos and their use of bows; harps and lutes being non fretted and intonated on a string by string basis; dulcimers using a hammer to sound off notes; sitars using some strings for droning, etc., etc.. Basses aren't too much different than guitars other than that their necks are about 6 inches longer, and they (traditionally, though not exclusively) provide 4 strings instead of 6. Both have at least 21 frets, notes are primarily sounded with a plectrum or finger (and not a hammer or bow), both are traditionally tuned to standard EADG(BE) tuning and use the same scale fingerings......The only striking difference is that the bass is an octave lower. Which kind of, though not necessarily, lends itself to a rhythm mindset (but a "rhythm mindset" is very much a big part of guitar playing anyways....).

Other than that, it's a guitar in every sense. If a guy is a good "bassist" then he's probably pretty competent on a guitar as well. And vice versa. Look at Geddy Lee playing classical duets with Lifeson, or Paul McCartney, who could play better than either John or George -- They're both awesome bass players, and awesome guitar players as well.

I don't see how there's any inherent personality differences in the people who use them, because neither instrument requires much of a paradigm shift to switch to the other. It's not like moving from guitar to percussion or horns. That would make a little more sense.

[Sky]

I play both....As do most guitarists. I rarely meet a straight up "bass player". They're just guitarists who see bass as having less of a barrier to entry.

Ahh...I see my perspective is called for! ;)

I started on guitar, but switched to bass when we couldn't find a good bass player. I was good with my fingers from classical fingerpicking. After playing strictly bass for a year, I pretty much started becoming a bass player. There's a different approach and mindset to playing bass, you can't just play guitar licks. It's pretty easy for me to pick out guitar players on bass in local bands, they play it like a low-tuned guitar.

Stray, you're talking technicality. Sure, they're both stringed instruments*. But the way in which they are utilized in a band setting are quite different, a different philosophy. Almost completely different. Hard to explain, I guess.

I'm feeling this now because a local blues artist is interested in me playing bass with him, I told him give me a couple weeks to build up my callouses...but now I'm finding my mindset has shifted and I'm playing bass like the guitar (which I've been practicing exclusively the last few years). That's why he hasn't asked me previously, and I tend to agree with him, as it's a disservice to the music to have a half-assed bass line driving things. A "full-time" or "real" bass player is always preferable.

* But really, one can't play the bass as a guitar due to the low register, the chording gets muddy, you have to adjust everything to fit the honkin' big sound waves you are pumping out and be careful about muddiness. And it's a different 'rhythym mindset', too, more locked in with the drums. My girlfriend finds it fascinating how much I tune into the drums when listening to music, it's from years of bass playing. Not that guitarists don't, as well, just that it's a more visceral thing on bass because your job is to hold the whole mothership together through the ride.

In my college days, we had 6 or 9 guitarists on each track...1 bass player. Even though we had a dozen guitarists and three bass players in the band. Totally different, despite all the similarities.

Hell, listen to a guitarist's solo album, if he's playing the bass. It's generally nowhere near as good as a real bass player, I'm listening to some Buckethead...great guitarist, but leave the bass to the bassists imo. Almost all guitarists make that mistake. I do, too, though at least I have the benefit of 6 years of professional bassing in my repertoire.

[stray]

Hard to explain, I guess.

Hah..Give me a little credit here, man. I've been playing both instruments for close to 20 years now. It's not that I play chords on the bass or anything. I hate tooting my own horn --- But I rip it up plenty. Many people have even pointed out (much to my chagrine) that I should be playing bass more than guitar  .

The thing is, I wouldn't know anything about bass or guitar playing if it wasn't, first and foremost, because of a general understanding of music. I'm a musician, in the generic sense.

Like I said, I don't play chords on the bass. Nor do I "shred" on the bass. What I do, however, is break chords down to their individual notes. And from there I build a melody and a rhythm. The rhythm is always in the root, and depending on whether the song is major, minor, 7th, 9th, whatever..That's where my note options will be.  The same options are there if I was playing lead guitar instead of bass. Take a C major chord being strummed on the guitar, for example, and you've already got a bassline with C, D, E, G, and A (the same way it'd be safe bet to melodize with those notes on lead guitar).

Now, as for a "guitar player's" mentality coming into the picture. I can understand one thing here -- Some (immature/wanker) guitar players don't understand the role of the backbeat. Which is why they sound like shit on bass. They don't have enough control to keep the rhythm, and start doing fill ins all over the place. They lose track of the root notes and throw themselves off (and the listener as well). But you know what? Those kind of guys suck at guitar too.

[Merusk]

Now, as for a "guitar player's" mentality coming into the picture. I can understand one thing here -- Some (immature/wanker) guitar players don't understand the role of the backbeat. Which is why they sound like shit on bass. They don't have enough control to keep the rhythm, and start doing fill ins all over the place. They lose track of the root notes and throw themselves off (and the listener as well). But you know what? Those kind of guys suck at guitar too.

See, you get what I was saying, I just had no idea how to convey it to you. These are guys who aren't thinking like Bassists.

[Sky]

Oh, I play chords on the bass. Just have to be careful so they sound good. The 7th chord turnaround on a 12 bar blues is tight.

[stray]

Chords or intervals? More than 2 notes at a time on bass just doesn't fit for me.

[Nebu]

Oh, I play chords on the bass. Just have to be careful so they sound good. The 7th chord turnaround on a 12 bar blues is tight.

Duck Dunn would hurt me cry if I played chords on my bass.   

[stray]

Nice name drop.  :-D

[Nebu]

Nice name drop.  :-D

It was an attempt at humor... apparently, a poor one on my part.