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Sky
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Reply #35 on: February 17, 2005, 12:35:04 PM

Well..the thought of what would I have done did occur to me (I was on the wrong coast at the time, anyway). So as they were jamming Seek & Destroy, I picked up my bass and ripped that out, sounding better than everyone but Trujillo (who definitely deserves the job, he totally rocks imo). Then I thought further as to what /I/ would have done, and that's pretty easy: play Anesthesia/Pulling Teeth! I've played that for so many years I have rewritten and extended some sections, it's familiar yet different than the original. And Lars jams through part of it, and I'd bet he doesn't get to sit and jam it out with a creative bass player too much, so it may have been fun for him. The song which follows it on the album was Whiplash, which I never really knew on bass. But I know the song backward and forward, we listened to so much metallica as kids, so I was able to wail out Whiplash, as well.

Then I saw the conference James, Lars, and Kirk had and one thing they were amazed by was Trujillo playing Whiplash with his fingers, and using his index finger as a pick for the sections that are physically impossible to play with traditional alternating fingerpicking, and how they hadn't seen anyone play it like that since Cliff...and I had just set my bass down after doing so. I felt pretty damned good after that, even though I've been focused on guitar. Or maybe because I've been focused on guitar.

Righ
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Reply #36 on: February 18, 2005, 08:37:30 AM

\Where is the talent today?  Where did all the bass gods go?

Have you seen Bela Fleck and the Flecktones live? Victor Wooten is a GOD. As good as Pastorius ever was.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
Arnold
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Reply #37 on: February 19, 2005, 04:40:37 AM

Neil Peart is a great drummer. But like you both said, he plays to the song and adds his personality moments TO the song, instead of in spite of the song. Any asshead who wants to be in a band has to learn it isn't all about him and his instrument. Same with Les Claypool. Outstanding bass player, but if he tried to play the Primus type stuff in a Metallica joint, it would totally fuck the song up, because they wouldn't mesh. I don't play anymore, but I at least understand that colloborative projects like bands require compromise on all fronts, or you end up sounding like Yngwie Malmsteen.

Which is why Metallica didn't hire Claypool when he tried out for them after Cliff Burton died.

Also, LOT'S of bands cover thier ears and say "na na na!" the second any drummer says he worships Neil Peart.
stray
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Reply #38 on: February 23, 2005, 03:56:03 AM

"slow hand"

Hah! One good thing about having that baritone around: I'm flying on my other guitars now. If I was into shredding, this would be as good a practice technique as any.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2005, 04:11:30 AM by Stray »
Sky
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Reply #39 on: February 23, 2005, 07:39:47 AM

Speed really isn't much of an issue for me, my first band started on thrash metal. I'm also trying to get in more time on the bass, which is great for finger strength. It's more finger articulation, I'm trying to force myself to re-learn theory. I really hated school and textbooks, so it's been tough going, I learn a couple little things and just start jamming. I can jam for hours on end if I stick to minor and mixolydians, I struggle with everything else. Great for metal, some rock, and blues, but I'd like to master at least major playing as well. Luckily, one thing that did stick from my (years) of theory was fretboard integration, I'm still pretty decent at playing something anywhere on the neck and rusty but still can transpose in realtime.

Got my transposition skills in the theater, oddly enough, playing in the house band for my high school production of Grease. It was so very cool to have a real band playing those rock-n-roll tunes, but our teacher (and my renfaire wench!) insisted on using drama club actors, not singers. So we had to transpose every song to a key the actor was comfortable with. 

I talked with my buddy who I mentioned plays baritones in his duo setup (he has three marketed setups: solo, duo with a drummer, and trio) and I think I might just stick with a standard tuning guitar for now, because I really need a nice guitar and I tend to drift across styles, so I'd be better off with the most versatile instrument, getting the baritone down the road somewhere. I'm extremely good at talking myself out of buying expensive things, I've needed a new guitar for years.

I just need a house of my own a lot more (for a studio I want to build).

Samwise
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Reply #40 on: February 23, 2005, 11:36:24 AM

This being the guitar thread, I'll barge in with a request for advice.  My beloved old acoustic guitar seems to be losing its bridge (looks like the pressure from the strings is slowly but surely prying it loose).  Is this something I can remedy myself with commonly available tools (like, say, wood glue), or should I bring it to the guitar hospital and show it to somebody who knows what they're doing?

"Nice attempted blast about my "drinking".  I do enjoy a nice cuppa, but that is because I am a bon vivant of gregarious nature and cheery disposition." - Ab
stray
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Reply #41 on: February 23, 2005, 02:12:47 PM

This being the guitar thread, I'll barge in with a request for advice.  My beloved old acoustic guitar seems to be losing its bridge (looks like the pressure from the strings is slowly but surely prying it loose).  Is this something I can remedy myself with commonly available tools (like, say, wood glue), or should I bring it to the guitar hospital and show it to somebody who knows what they're doing?

Yeah, it's doable, but I wouldn't recommend it. Acoustics need a tech's hand moreso than electrics, and it usually won't cost much anyways. Also, they'll find other things to adjust in the process of fixing the bridge, and getting it sounding as good as it can in every aspect (usually for free).
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Reply #42 on: February 23, 2005, 04:54:54 PM

I'll bring it to a reputable instrumentician then.   smiley  Thanks!

"Nice attempted blast about my "drinking".  I do enjoy a nice cuppa, but that is because I am a bon vivant of gregarious nature and cheery disposition." - Ab
Sky
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Reply #43 on: February 24, 2005, 07:20:46 AM

Stray, is your sig being dynamically generated?

stray
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Reply #44 on: February 24, 2005, 07:39:03 AM

Stray, is your sig being dynamically generated?

Yeah, I'm using the Audioscrobbler plug-in that Big Gulp pointed out the other day. Pretty cool.
stray
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Reply #45 on: March 07, 2005, 05:57:14 AM

http://cyberjamarchive.com/mp3-uploads/bach-chaconne.mp3

Free music. Bach in Drop D  :-D

Damn, I don't know if I'm crying from the beauty of the song, or the fact that I'll never be this good  cry
SirBruce
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Reply #46 on: March 07, 2005, 06:30:56 AM

That's weird; I don't see Stray's sig anymore.

Bruce
stray
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Reply #47 on: March 07, 2005, 06:50:53 AM

I took it off. Just for you  shocked
stray
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Reply #48 on: March 24, 2005, 12:52:36 AM


Jaguar HH

Oh my.

This comes out at just the wrong time too. Just when I thought I had all the humbucking guitars I'd want, Fender comes out with this. I was actually planning on getting another Strat, or a Jazzmaster, but damn, I can't resist. My affinity for old "twangy" guitars is going to have to wait.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2005, 01:09:47 AM by Stray »
Sky
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Reply #49 on: March 24, 2005, 07:53:52 AM

That's a nice looking guitar, good price on it, too. I like the electronics, some nice options for pickup control. I think I might be going with a standard maple neck strat for my next guitar, I've been playing rosewood (on El Cheapo...hey I have an idea for a new headstock graphic!) necks for a few years now. I kinda wish that guitar had an ebony neck (which is what I've specced for my humbucking guitar, a les paul as of now, but daaamn are they expensive) Back in the day I played maple necks (because I mostly played strats). But I'd like to tap the pickups like that, phase inversion ftw and whatnot.

I'm holding out for the baritone Jag ;) New guitar #3, ETA: 2112, heh. But I'm thinking #1 is the black american hardtail strat, maple neck (I'm no whammy man, I've always taken the bar off and twist the body use the string beyond the nut, or move the bridge itself, etc, I hurt guitars when I play :) Heck, I wear down the thickest picks I can find, too...)

That bach piece was cool, reminds me of being in school. I could never play that cleanly, I've always been more about passion. Well, not always, I used to think Jimmy Page was way too sloppy when I was a kid just starting out, heh. But after going to school to learn how to play classical, I wanted to play dirty. After going to recording school, I wanted to underproduce my sound. I was actually working through a paganini piece I found in a magazine, but I dropped it because really all I do is sit back and wail. I've always found it much better to listen to an hour or so of good classical music and then apply the theory, the structure, but not try to imitate the actual work. Thus my 'improv classical' stuff, which snakes into my blues in an odd way (I mostly do slow minor blues). Tough to pull off without sounding like a wanker showing off, I strive for that balance and it can be really sweet and different.

/ramble

stray
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Reply #50 on: March 24, 2005, 02:25:19 PM

That's a nice looking guitar, good price on it, too. I like the electronics, some nice options for pickup control. I think I might be going with a standard maple neck strat for my next guitar, I've been playing rosewood (on El Cheapo...hey I have an idea for a new headstock graphic!) necks for a few years now. I kinda wish that guitar had an ebony neck (which is what I've specced for my humbucking guitar, a les paul as of now, but daaamn are they expensive) Back in the day I played maple necks (because I mostly played strats). But I'd like to tap the pickups like that, phase inversion ftw and whatnot.

Yeah, I prefer maple necks too. The strats and teles I have now are all maple. But I've always wanted a Fender with a 60's C-Shape neck. The ones with a 7.25 radius. To me, the Fender 60's models are perfect.

All 7.25 C Shaped necks are rosewood though (at least that I know of). The cheapest model with a neck like that is the 60's reissue Strat and the Jaguar HH above. Further up, the vintage Jags and the Jazzmaster. Further up from that, the "relic" and "NOS" models. And of course, further up from that, a real 60's model. All rosewood though. The only way I can get a 60's shape neck with maple is through the custom shop (and one day I'll get just that!...I just need more.....money).

Anyways, I don't prefer rosewood, but I don't hate it either. I just have to accept my options. For now, I was in the market for either the 60's reissue (Mex made guitar, but to me, those things feel better than many of their expensive American models), or I was going to throw down for a Jazzmaster (which I've ALWAYS wanted, but end up talking my self out of for one reason or another).

The Jags, on the other hand, have never been what I want out of a Fender. The short scale of a Gibson = one of the more un-Fender-like guitars they make. To top it off, these new ones have humbuckers and no tremolo bar. The thing that's appealing to me here is the looks!

I really should be talking myself out of this. Heh.

I dunno. I still want to get it, but I just know I'll regret it sooner or later. I already have a Gibson and an Ibanez (and that Schecter baritone as well). I really don't need another "hot" guitar. I barely play the ones I have.

Which brings me to another thing: I've been "experimenting" too much lately. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but it really isn't getting me anywhere. It's just for kicks....but it ends up costing me. I'm starting to realize that my best playing is always going to come through with single coils. That Fender "quack" sound. Same goes for what I prefer to listen to. While I love players like Angus, Townsend, B.B. King, Iommi, Page, and metal guitarists in general, I worship players like Jimi, Keith Richards, SRV, Dick Dale, and Tom Verlaine (and if you haven't heard Tom, go out and get the Television album Marquee Moon. He's subtle, and not necessarily "rockin'", but it's beautiful nonetheless).

Anywho...I didn't realize you were into Fenders as well. Cool deal, man. "Hardtail" or not  tongue

Quote
Thus my 'improv classical' stuff, which snakes into my blues in an odd way (I mostly do slow minor blues). Tough to pull off without sounding like a wanker showing off, I strive for that balance and it can be really sweet and different.

I'm kinda the same way, but I'm not exactly sure to what extent I'm using the minor scale. I know jack about theory. I wish I did. Someone told me once that I'm messing around in mixolydian...But I don't even know that means. As far as injecting bluesy stuff into "classical" type improv playing, I know that I'm bringing blues technique into that style (i.e. bends and the like), but really, it's not the blues either smiley

To make it even more confusing, if I'm playing classical sounding stuff, I came up with a weird tuning to play it in (I doubt I really "came up" with it actually. I'm sure it's listed somewhere, but I did find it intuitively on my own).  D-A-D-G-A#-D --- Basically, Keith Richards' or Open G slide tuning, except with the B string tuned to A#. With the way I tune it, one finger bar chords are in minor instead of major. Not bluesy like Open G at all, but it's still pretty interesting.

Overall, I kind of suck at "real" classical or blues. I've been playing for about 15 years now, and I've gotten pretty good at this "other thing" I'm doing though. It makes sense musically, that much I know, but I'm not sure how to identify scales and modes. There's some classical melody in my tunes, some blues and jazz technique, applied through the freakout aesthetics of Jazz horn players like Coltrane/Davis, with the "twangy" sounds of Dick Dale and Duane Eddy. Heh. That's all I know. I've tried learning theory from time to time, but without a teacher, it isn't easy.

Rhythm wise: Whatever works, I guess!  wink I usually prefer single note melodies in my rhythms rather than strumming chords though.
Arnold
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Reply #51 on: March 25, 2005, 02:39:01 AM


I'm kinda the same way, but I'm not exactly sure to what extent I'm using the minor scale. I know jack about theory. I wish I did. Someone told me once that I'm messing around in mixolydian...But I don't even know that means. As far as injecting bluesy stuff into "classical" type improv playing, I know that I'm bringing blues technique into that style (i.e. bends and the like), but really, it's not the blues either smiley


The Mixolydian mode is basically the major scale, with a flat 7th interval.  But it does matter what chord you play it over.  If you're playing over a C chord, you play C D E F G A Bb.  However, if you are playing over,say, a I IV V progression, you can't play those same notes and have it be "mixolydian" the whole time; you have to change with the chord changes(C D E F G A Bb/ F G A Bb C D Eb/G A B C D E F).

I'm no expert in the area of modes (in fact, I suspect someone will correct something I posted above).  But be aware, there is a TON of misinformation when it comes to modal teachings aimed at guitar players.  Most books will tell you that modal playing is a matter of the note you start and end on (Ionian = C D E F G A B C, Dorian = D E F G A B C D, Phrygian = E F G A B C D E, etc), but this is flat out WRONG.  What really matters is what chord you are playing a certain scale over.  That is what gives you the modal sound.
Sky
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Reply #52 on: March 25, 2005, 07:49:52 AM

Modes are merely an expression of scalar intervals. Ionian = Major, for instance. That's why mixolydian is 'basically' the major scale, with a slightly different interval. I remember my theory book having the modes written out on the inside cover (by me, I was in a Leonardo DV phase), and it was like:

Mode name: 1-1-1/2-1-1-1/2-1
Mode name: 1-1/2-1-1-1/2-1-1
etc

(and this is a little spotty, because I last took theory in college over ten years ago, heh...I can look up the true answer if you'd like with each mode and it's intervals, I still have my old theory book at home somewhere)

Right now I'm just using a mode of convinience, the B mixolydian over the E minor. It has all the notes of the E minor scale, played on a B tonal center. It's my 'stock' metal riffing material, the stuff I was using for my improv metal nights at an open mic club last summer. I'm pretty tired of it's restrictions, though. But I'm insane inside those scales, total fretboard mastery, so I tend to fall back on 'em for freedom of playing. Kinda ironic, limiting yet freedom as far as playing in any position within those limits.
Quote
I usually prefer single note melodies in my rhythms rather than strumming chords though.
I don't have any preference, I try not to, intentionally. I like all kinds of stuff, from palm-muted stuff, single and chords, to strummy acoustic stuff. I try to always keep it interesting, with walking bass lines, passing tones, little independant melodies, chord inversions, etc. That's really where I am right now, chops coming back and moving on to more advanced stuff and trying to get the theory down once again.

stray
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Reply #53 on: March 25, 2005, 01:44:55 PM

Thanks for the explanations. Except...err...I still don't get it.

Could either of you two recommend a book on scales and modes? Preferably, one that assumes no prior knowledge or experience with music notation and theory. Something geared more towards guitars and fretboard patterns, and has lots of pretty little pictures.

Everything I've learned up to this point has been by ear or imitation (and by "imitation" I don't mean cover songs or whatnot. I just mean by learning patterns and techniques by listening to other guitarists). I think I've got a pretty good intuitive sense on what kinds of notes I should mashing together, but it's not uncommon for me to hit those "sour" notes when I'm trying to improvise. Sometimes those sour notes turn out to be not so bad at all, and simply take me into a new direction. Most of time though, they just fuck up a song. I'd like to get to the point where I know exactly what I'm doing. Where accidents (at least the bad kind) never happen.

Sky
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Reply #54 on: March 25, 2005, 02:40:56 PM

I'm working with this book right now. It's a series and I'll probably check out the others, it's fairly well done. It has almost no prose in it, but a gajillion scales in tab. I also got a little gig bag book of chords which is nowhere near as extensive as I want, as I said, I'll probably get the guitar grimoire version. I like to work on scales and chord progressions concurrently, and build chords straight from scale tones, but at some point I need to work more on standard chording, too.

It's been a pain, since I'm really just getting back into theory, but it's fun when things fall back into place, and I'm glad I'm doing it, because it's a lot more satisfying knowing the individual notes in each chord, because then it's so much easier to build things up from there.

I can totally empathize with hitting sour notes during improv, it's to be expected from anyone but a true master. But that's why I'd been sticking to the safety net of my minor scales, which I can improv anywhere with almost zero sour notes. Like I said, it makes me feel like a newbler when I play anything else, heh. But there's a funny sense of dedication that brings out in me...because I can play a blistering full neck minor run and then struggle with some basic patterns or scales I'm not used to, makes me want to get as good at those as I am with the minor stuff. I'm intentionally revisiting a lot of problem areas from when I first learned to play, I skipped alot because it wasn't relevant to the music I was playing at the time, which let me get good a lot faster than if I had done things 'properly'.

And don't knock the ...For Dummies series, it's been damn good on just about any topic I can think of, guitar is no exception. I'm actually using it, as well. Mostly as a springboard, but also as a nice review of some basic techniques across a variety of styles. Your local library probably has it or can get it for you, the copy I am using is from work (the library).

Thinking about it...I think I can trace this whole renewed interest in major scales and whotnat to a single lick, I was listening to some minor blues and they kept using a cool major passing tone. Rather than just cop that one lick, I wanted to learn how to mix and match scales like that on my own, so I'm not so stratified. And of course, at speed in real-time, because I'm hell-bent on becoming an improv player (first time around the focus was on writing and structure).

stray
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Reply #55 on: March 25, 2005, 06:07:58 PM

Thanks. I've seen those Grimoire books around for years. They've always seemed a bit daunting to me, but maybe I should just dive in. After all, it's a better way to devote my time than with a lot of other things.


Slightly off topic:

You want to hear something sad? Jimi Hendrix only played for 11 years of his life.

What gives? I could devote all my time to music education for the rest of my life, and at the ripe age of 70, I'd probably say to myself: "You've gotten pretty good over the years, haven't you? But you know what? Compared to Jimi, you still suck!" Heh.
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Reply #56 on: March 25, 2005, 09:03:05 PM

Here's how I think of modes:

Modes are just ways of playing scales with different intervals inbetween certain notes.  You can memorize the patterns on a fret board then you can play any mode in any key, by selecting a different starting note.

If you write the notes of a scale, you can see the starting notes for each of the seven modes, in a particular key.  Let's do the Key of C:

C - Ionian
D - Dorian
E - Phyrgian
F - Lydian
G - Mixolydian
A - Aeolian
B - Locrian

All seven of these modes are based on the key of C, thus contain the same notes as the C scale.

If we use the example above (from Sky) of the E minor scale, we have the following:

E - Ionian
F# - Dorian
G - Phrygian
A - Lydian
B - Mixolydian
C# - Aeolian
D# - Locrian

Hence we can see that for the Mixolydian mode, we are actually playing notes from the E minor scale (as was pointed out by Sky above).  Since a lot of metal is based around the E power chord, you will see a lot of riffing around the minor modes, which are B Mixolydian and G Phrygian (the two most common).

The modes follow a set number of intervals from the root note of the key (or tonic note).  They all follow the same pattern:

Ionian - based on major scale
Dorian - based on major scale one whole step below tonic
Phrygian - based on major scale two whole tones below tonic (major third)
Lydian - based on major scale 5 half steps below tonic (major 4th)
Mixolydian - based on major scale a perfect 5th below tonic (6 semi tones)
Aeolian - based on major scale one whole step above tonic
Locrian - based on major scale one third above tonic

So if someone says "play an C Mixolydian scale", you count a perfect 5th below that note, which would be F (so this would be based on notes in the F major scale).  So a solo based on the C Mixolydian scale would be appropriate for certain songs in the K of F (provided the scale fit the intended mood of the piece).

We don't tend to think of modes since as guitarists we play chromatic instruments.  This means we can play every semi-tome (or half step) starting from the low E up to the high E two octaves up.  Older instruments, like dulcimers, were tuned to major scales, so you really had to think about modes when the key of the song was changed!

“We have competent people thinking about this stuff. We’re not just making shit up.” -Neil deGrasse Tyson
stray
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Reply #57 on: March 26, 2005, 01:19:25 AM

We don't tend to think of modes since as guitarists we play chromatic instruments.  This means we can play every semi-tome (or half step) starting from the low E up to the high E two octaves up.  Older instruments, like dulcimers, were tuned to major scales, so you really had to think about modes when the key of the song was changed!

Hmm...There's a recent thread goin' on at Harmony Central about this actually. I'm finding some of it interesting (even though I don't quite understand it all).

"Do you think modally or in terms of superimposing a scale?"

Quote
My teacher and I sort of have an ongoing debate about this. He'll say play a Ab melodic minor over a G altered dominant chord. I'll say 'oh you mean G super locrian.' He'll say fine you learn your 21 scales and I'll learn my 3. But in my case I know that the #5 of the super locrian scale will also be the #5 of the chord I'm playing it over, while he has to remember that the 5th of the Ab melodic minor is the #5 of of the chord. On the other hand there are situations where the scale you would superimpose doesn't have the chords root in it. Then there's no mode.

Some of the thread is too technical for me, but it seems like many guitarists think in terms of modes.


Also, this guy derailed a bit, but I thought he made a cool point:

Quote
Once you can feel the intervals in your fingers, you don't NEED to think - thinking melodically, diatonically, whatever, it all just gets in the way. Scales and modes are, to me, all about training your fingers. Arpeggios are extremely important because they train you to play certain intervals, and different modes incorporate all sorts of weird intervals in their arpeggios.

But the most important thing is: This is NOT NECESSARY (oh, playing chromatically through the entire range of the guitar in different positions can actually help - if you do this a lot when you're bored, you will become more intuitively connected with your instrument) [...] Eventually all that playing will make you fluent in music exactly the same as you probably/most likely/heck/definitely are with your spoken native language.

I guess it's much the same as how babies babble to learn different ways of shaping the mouth and tongue to form various syllables, and then they instinctively learn how to piece them together to create meaning, and eventually words (i guess this is partially why practicing riffs is another way to sound a lot better with a minimal amount of effort). The more I play nowadays, it seems, thinking along these lines, improvisation gets easier and easier, and the only thing holding me back from truly exploring what I feel musically is my own technical limitations - which can all be remedied simply by playing more. Improvisation can teach itself just as well as any method, at least in my humble and fairly uneducated opinion.

A book for a linguistics class I took [...] called The Language Instinct by Stephen Pinker [...] describes how people acquire language, in terms of what modern science percieves [...] It seems to me that the ability to play music in a way that is "natural" comes the same way the ability to speak a language comes ... although certainly without as much ease unless you either work very hard or begin at a younger age.

As obvious as it is, I've never given much thought on the similarities between spoken language and music. I mean, how much does one have to understand about their language in order to convey a powerful message?

Really, not much at all.

I think the examples are endless, so I'm not going to bother listing any here. I will say, however, that a George Carlin can stir up a crowd long before a William F. Buckley could even make an impression. Doesn't the same apply to music to an extent? Or any art for that matter?

Anyways, it's slightly off point and all that, but it's interesting to me. I'm still going to devote more time to learning more, but I think "reaching one's potential" with music is an entirely different thing.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2005, 03:45:49 PM by Stray »
stray
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Reply #58 on: March 26, 2005, 09:16:28 PM

I mentioned Tom Verlaine earlier, so I thought I'd post this. Bootleg quality, but still...

His quirky singing style may not be for everyone, but IMO, this is some of the best guitar playing ever put to tape: Little Johnny Jewel (27 MB)

The second solo, 7 and 1/2 minutes in, kicks my ass every time.

Kind of a shame what happened to punk after the 70's. It pretty much became synonymous with lack of skill on one's instrument, and vanity, when in the beginning it was just about putting the balls back into Rock.
Arnold
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Reply #59 on: March 27, 2005, 03:17:05 PM

Thanks for the explanations. Except...err...I still don't get it.


Try this exercise I got from a Joe Satriani article and it should help you get it.  It will show you that a mode is a certain sound and not just a series of notes with a certain beginning or ending, as many other sources suggest.

Use your low E string as an open drone.  Strike it and then play the E Major scale (starting on on the 7th fret of the A string is probably the easiest position); that's your E Ionian.

Next, strike the drone again, and while it is ringing, play the D major scale over it.  This is D Dorian, and it has a b3 and b7 (compared to the E Ionian).

Then play the drone and a C Major over it.  This is C Phrygian.  The Phrygian mode has a b2, b3, b6 and b7.  Remember that E Ioninan is E F# G# A B C# D# E and C Major is C D E F G A B C, so if you flat the 2, 3, 6 and 7 in E Ionian, you get the C Major scale (this same idea applies to all the modes).

I'm not going to take you through all the modes, but you should get the idea and hear the sounds.  A good thing to help you is memorizing the circle of fifths.  If you know that the Lydian mode has 1 sharp (the 4th) and you are playing over E, you can just add 1 sharp to the "key signature", to go from E to B. 

E F# G# A B C# D#

to

B C# D# E F# G# A# B

The progression of sharps and flats is always the same in the circle of fifths.  So if flatting some notes leaves you with 2 sharps, you know the mode you end up with will be a D and it will have the notes D E F# G A B C# D, no matter what mode it is.  The circle of fifths makes it easy to do "musical arithmetic" by just adding sharps or flats to the key signature.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2005, 04:19:19 PM by Arnold »
Arnold
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Reply #60 on: March 27, 2005, 04:17:28 PM


So if someone says "play an C Mixolydian scale", you count a perfect 5th below that note, which would be F (so this would be based on notes in the F major scale).  So a solo based on the C Mixolydian scale would be appropriate for certain songs in the K of F (provided the scale fit the intended mood of the piece).

What's interesting is reading guitar boards and seeing all the different ways people use to think these things out and the little mental devices they use to make them work.

Since I come at it from the circle of fifths angle, when I think Mixolydian, I think "1 flat".  Since C major has no sharps or flats, adding one flat to it gives me the key signature of F Major.  If I was to play D Mixolydian, I'd add one flat (aka, subtract a sharp) and end up with 1 sharp in the "key signature", which means G Major.
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Reply #61 on: March 28, 2005, 12:58:09 PM

Quote
What's interesting is reading guitar boards and seeing all the different ways people use to think these things out and the little mental devices they use to make them work.

Yes, I find this interesting as well.

For me, it made more sense to think of modes as positional entities.  Like in thinking of how I changed frets within a scale in order to play a different mode.

If you look online, you'll find fret board charts for each mode that will show you the pattern that each mode follows.  So I know for example that if I want to play C Mixolydian scale, you just select the starting position and follow the pattern.  Also notice that the circle of fifths follows a sepcific pattern on a fretboard too!

“We have competent people thinking about this stuff. We’re not just making shit up.” -Neil deGrasse Tyson
Arnold
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Reply #62 on: March 28, 2005, 11:11:19 PM

Quote
What's interesting is reading guitar boards and seeing all the different ways people use to think these things out and the little mental devices they use to make them work.

Yes, I find this interesting as well.

For me, it made more sense to think of modes as positional entities.  Like in thinking of how I changed frets within a scale in order to play a different mode.

If you look online, you'll find fret board charts for each mode that will show you the pattern that each mode follows.  So I know for example that if I want to play C Mixolydian scale, you just select the starting position and follow the pattern.  Also notice that the circle of fifths follows a sepcific pattern on a fretboard too!

I try to stay away from fretboard patterns and think in terms of notes.
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Reply #63 on: March 29, 2005, 06:27:10 PM

If I put together some quick MP3 clips of the various modes played over a basic root chord (like an E power chord used in rock or metal), would anyone be interested in hearing them here on F13?

“We have competent people thinking about this stuff. We’re not just making shit up.” -Neil deGrasse Tyson
stray
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Reply #64 on: March 29, 2005, 06:56:23 PM

If I put together some quick MP3 clips of the various modes played over a basic root chord (like an E power chord used in rock or metal), would anyone be interested in hearing them here on F13?

Heh. You might want to pm one of the admins. I'm not sure if they even look at this thread.

Oh, and btw, if possible, can you give me a brief idea of what the guitarist is doing in that song I posted above (Little Johnny Jewel)? I'm just curious. He was originally a classically trained pianist, then moved to free jazz on saxophones. According to him, he didn't even care about guitars until he was older (he called them "twee" -- whatever that means) -- but I'll be damned if I could find a better guitar player that I could name as my personal favorite (he completely restored my faith in lead playing, at a time when I considered guitars to be a bit "twee" myself).
Sky
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Reply #65 on: April 05, 2005, 12:14:23 PM

Miguel, we really should start posting some little snippets, that would be cool. For me personally, I'd like to record something polished for once, I usually just throw down some ideas for future exploration and never revisit them. I was listening through my clips a while back when I put in a new hd, sometimes the same idea will crop up several months later in some odd morphed form, I'm actually building a song out of three of those clips. My obstacle is that I grew up (literally, from age 14) as half of a songwriting duo. Get some ideas cooked up, throw it on tape, then bounce it off my singer and we work to arrange and fill out the ideas and put lyrics to it. It's crushing trying to do it alone, imo.

Wish I wasn't saving for a house, a new guitar and a Digi002 would go a long ways in helping me record more easily... :)

(downloading that song now)

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Reply #66 on: April 05, 2005, 03:49:01 PM

Quote
Miguel, we really should start posting some little snippets, that would be cool.

My PC has been apart for the past few weeks so I haven't had access to any of my recording gear.  I've been converting it with a new power supply, fans, vid card coolers, etc in order to silence it.  It was getting distracting trying to record songs in the same room as a PC that sounded like a 12 HP leafblower on gardening day.

My mic pre is on loan ATM, but if you all don't mind listening to direct recordings of guitar I should be able to throw a sample clip together by this weekend.  I'll host in on my own website and link it here.

“We have competent people thinking about this stuff. We’re not just making shit up.” -Neil deGrasse Tyson
stray
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Reply #67 on: April 06, 2005, 11:22:47 AM

Wish I wasn't saving for a house, a new guitar and a Digi002 would go a long ways in helping me record more easily... :)

You might want to look into getting a ProTools MIX system. Hell of a lot better and slightly cheaper than Digi002's, M-Audio, and the like. The only reason they're cheap is that Digidesign moved on to HD for their Pro systems. But they'll still do everything an 002 can do (and more). You might even getting lucky and end up paying half than you would for something new.

On the subject of guitars, I ended up getting ordering one of these over the weekend:



Really cheap too ($300). Mine's white. I was going to settle on a Am. Vintage reissue, but I found this used Made in Japan model (usually these still run $600 or so, but I don't think the dealer knew wtf he was doing). I ended saving about a grand. All I have to do now is upgrade the pups ($100 for a pair) and I'll be happy with it. Hopefully this will subside the G.A.S.

Did you find a method to Verlaine's madness btw? I read that he used the Bop Scale a lot (from his Sax experience), but I'm not sure to what extent and whatnot.
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Reply #68 on: April 07, 2005, 09:23:03 AM

If I put together some quick MP3 clips of the various modes played over a basic root chord (like an E power chord used in rock or metal), would anyone be interested in hearing them here on F13?

PM Shockeye and Schild. I have no problem with it, but Shockeye's the one who'd have to put them up.

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Reply #69 on: April 07, 2005, 09:24:34 AM

No need to PM Me, I'm all good with it.
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