WandaVision

[NowhereMan]

Yeah, revealing the villain at the last hour isn't great if you're setting the villain up for the show. However if you're teasing the villain for some movie stuff it makes sense, I'm kind of expecting whoever it turns out to be  to be a focus for Dr. Strange or similar and to be kept off screen in Wandavision.

[Khaldun]

I'm not sure what's wrong with doing that in a comic-book setting.

It is literally what ten thousand comic books have done in ongoing storylines--have the REAL BAD GUY reveal himself in the final panel before the battle royale. Sure, comics fans always know who the REAL BAD GUY is when he/she appears, hence the gasps where people go "oh my god". If you have been reading along in such a story without ever having read a comic book, probably "oh my GOD IT's DOCTOR DOOM" or "OH MY GOD IT'S MORDRU" probably lands with a thud for good reason but why has that person been reading at all then? It's not just comic books--any long-running serial does this. Soap operas do it, Doctor Who does it, Star Trek did it once at least (Wrath of Khan). It's a delicious thing for those in the know. If you sell it well enough with some exposition it works for those who are new. (If you never watched "Space Seed", you still got the 411 on Khan in "Wrath of Khan", for example.) 

When I think on, for example, it was in X-Men and Doctor Strange and in both cases you got his M.O. and backstory by the end and the point really was that he just served as a way to make the lead character (Strange and Cyclops) relive their lives in an emotionally fraught way. I'm sure if you were a hard-core reader of Steve Gerber's comics for Marvel in the 1970s or Chris Claremont's early career you were like WHOA but otherwise, it was just "ok, fine, I get it".

Did anybody need a longer 411 on the bad guys in the Eccleston Doctor Who that had Simon Pegg in it? The alien running horrible television shows? No? You didn't find out anything about them until pretty late in the game.

[Draegan]

Yeah, revealing the villain at the last hour isn't great if you're setting the villain up for the show. However if you're teasing the villain for some movie stuff it makes sense, I'm kind of expecting whoever it turns out to be  to be a focus for Dr. Strange or similar and to be kept off screen in Wandavision.

Everything MCU is just a set up for the next MCU thing. They have no issue revealing a big bad in WandaVision just to hype up the next thing.

[MahrinSkel]

All of this is setting up for the next Dr. Strange movie. They could introduce both the Big Bad and Strange (or even just Wong) in the last 5 minutes.

--Dave

Edit: Insert micro-agression about Asian names here.

[Velorath]

Yeah, revealing the villain at the last hour isn't great if you're setting the villain up for the show. However if you're teasing the villain for some movie stuff it makes sense, I'm kind of expecting whoever it turns out to be  to be a focus for Dr. Strange or similar and to be kept off screen in Wandavision.

Everything MCU is just a set up for the next MCU thing. They have no issue revealing a big bad in WandaVision just to hype up the next thing.

Stuff is set up for the next MCU thing in the post-credits stuff usually. The main stories in the movies have been more self-contained, with a fairly sizable number of villains actually getting killed off in the movie they're introduced in.

[Velorath]

All of this is setting up for the next Dr. Strange movie. They could introduce both the Big Bad and Strange (or even just Woo) in the last 5 minutes.

--Dave

Woo is the name of the guy who is already appearing in the show this thread is for. I'm guessing you mean Wong, and I'd have just let it slide but this is the second time.

[Raguel]

I don't remember who it was but I someone on the interwebs suggested Immortus as the villain. I'm not sure how I'd feel about that, but it would tie into Loki and Ant-man and The Wasp.

[Velorath]

I'm not sure what's wrong with doing that in a comic-book setting.

Even the most basic story needs conflict and resolution. For most of the show, Wanda has been the source of conflict. She's confused, she seems to have taken over a small town controlling everybody inside, and actively prevents people from questioning her or figuring out too much. You can argue SWORD guy is a villain, but really all he's done so far is try to rebuild Vision and get aggressive against Wanda (who again, has seemingly taken over a US town).

Possible resolutions taking the story all the way down this path is to have Wanda either confront the trauma and work past it as best she can, freeing the town, or more tragically to double down on things, eventually having to be stopped by Vision, Monica, or whoever. There's a number of ways you can resolve it really, but those are some of the basic ones.

Or you can take the path they're currently going down with a reveal that someone else is behind it. The problem with doing this too late in the game means that they've spent 7 episodes building up one conflict only to at least partially negate it, changing the conflict from Wanda vs. everyone else to Wanda vs. Agatha (with Vision, Monica, and Quicksilver in the mix somehow) with only two episodes to develop that. Who is Agatha Harkness? What does she want? How did her whole plan work? We've now got two episodes to explore this. Worse, Agatha's plot wasn't uncovered by Wanda, she largely just seemed to reveal herself as the villain. Nothing in the story actually built to the reveal, it just kinda happened and it feels like it happened now because the writers knew they had to start wrapping things up.

Doing another surprise reveal pretty much right on the heels of the one they just did would be even worse. You can only do so much misdirection before people stop caring. Going from "Wanda is responsible" to "no wait it's Agatha" to "just kidding it's Mephisto or whoever" is just... at some point you have to take a step back and look at what the story is they're telling. Person experiences trauma, tries to reimagine life with deceased lover is a coherent plotline. You can see how the sitcom theme kinda works itself in. Witch manipulates trauma victim into taking over a town transforming it into a sitcom as part of her plot to do whatever, just becomes increasingly convoluted. Mephisto as the reveal instead of Agatha would have been easier to pull off because he's basically Satan so there's at least an easy shorthand there for viewers.

Now clearly I'm not saying that the MCU can't do reveals that lead into other things, because yes, they do it all the time. There's a difference between the Avengers movie we got though where Loki is the main threat but Thanos is hinted at pulling the strings in the background, and a movie where Loki doesn't show up until the last 20 minutes and then Thanos shows up in the last minute.

I understand from your defense of The Last Jedi that you're ok with undermining previous character and plot developments, and with having a complete disregard for pacing but I can only speak for myself. I'm not saying that WandaVision has fumbled the ball quite yet. It's absolutely possible they pull this off. That reveal was very much a red flag for me though.

[eldaec]

Yeah, revealing the villain at the last hour isn't great if you're setting the villain up for the show. However if you're teasing the villain for some movie stuff it makes sense, I'm kind of expecting whoever it turns out to be  to be a focus for Dr. Strange or similar and to be kept off screen in Wandavision.

Everything MCU is just a set up for the next MCU thing. They have no issue revealing a big bad in WandaVision just to hype up the next thing.

Sure, I can see an epilogue that says 'hahaha this is all part of my nefarious plans' and teases the next story.

I just doubt they are bringing any more major players into this story.

And just watching the yo magic commercial again, which I'd taken more as a faustian bargain thing, rewatching at this point it looks like a much simpler message that you cannot undo grief with magic.

[Samwise]

Also worth saying the MCU has never really gone in for super clever endings.

There is likely to be a focus on running and explosions from this point on with limited screentime for exposition.

Strong disagree.  My money is on a blue laser that shoots into space while lots of giant bugs fly around it.

[Khaldun]

Come on. How much more do you need to have the show say WANDA MIGHT NOT BE RESPONSIBLE THERE MIGHT BE SOMETHING ELSE GOING ON? It's been doing that from the beginning. Every sympathetic character--Jimmy Woo, Monica Rambeau, Professor Two Broke Girls, is "This can't just be Wanda". You have a secret agent/police guy practically twirling his mustache and rubbing his crotch at the thought of the sweet vibranium corpse of the Vision and a video that shows Wanda roaring in to her dead lover's vivisection.

You have a mysterious place doing mysterious things with mysterious characters around, one of whom the non-mysterious characters have noted seems very mysterious.

Having a Big Bad who isn't really revealed until the end of an ongoing serial or even hinted at in some ways is completely comic-book normal. Watch the first Avengers movie--when is Thanos mentioned ever in any of it? Oh right, he's not until the post-credits. No hints, no winks, no Loki saying "Well, wait until you meet my new master", none of it.

Dormammu is mentioned constantly in the first Doctor Strange but you don't really see him at all until near the end--Kaecilius and his goons are the only threat that matters. (Nor do you have any hint that Mordo is going to be an enemy.)

You have a situation in WandaVision that's been explicitly

a) a mystery/puzzle box show: what's going on from the VERY BEGINNING cannot be what is literally going on (e.g., that characters we know have been amusingly recast as sitcom characters in classic TV shows)
b) a mystery/puzzle box to which the most powerful character is very obviously not the right answer--a scarlet herring--since there is NO conceivable reason for her to recast herself and her dead husband in sitcoms; she's been previously shown to be something of a fish out of water in her new Avengering life (she was experimented on by a Nazi, she was manipulated by a genocidal robot into fighting the Avengers, her brother sacrificed himself heroically, she tried to join up and do the right thing and accidentally got people killed, she fought for Captain America and was imprisoned, she fell in love with a saintly android, she failed to save him from a mad god, she almost killed the mad god later when given the chance, and then? Nowhere in there does "she will choose to relive the history of sitcoms with her powers" seem like something consistent with the character we've seen so far, so this is not a Chekov gun of long-standing
c) a mystery/puzzle box that suggests that maybe the seemingly powerful character at the heart of it is driven by grief and despair that she barely understands--but to create something in a place she doesn't know and has never been to? in a medium that hardly matters to her? with shapes that have no association with her?

If this was a 1-hour X-Files, you'd expect the Cigarette-Smoking Man to show up at the end--and don't forget that once upon a time, he wasn't a familiar figure and he wasn't foreshadowed throughout an episode.

There is nothing weird about the last 1/8th or so of a show like this introducing a real antagonist underneath two layers of fake antagonists, especially not when it's essentially an elaborate prologue for future content.

[Velorath]

You might want to rewatch Avengers. About a half an hour in Loki talks with Thanos' henchman who spells out that Loki has a new master who supplied him with the scepter and is providing him with an army. We don't see Thanos until the post-credits but it's never ambiguous that Loki is working for someone else. We know that Loki of course also has his own motivations for what he's doing, but when Loki opens a portal to alien invaders and a giant space ship it's not some "what the fuck is going on here" reveal, it's directly set up early in the movie.

Likewise, there's no reveal with Kaecilius or Dormammu. Yeah, we don't see Dormammu until near the end, but we know what he is, and what his general motivation/goal is. Now imagine in Dormammu was never mentioned at all in the movie until that point when he shows up in the movie.

Here's the thing about mystery/puzzle boxes: Things still have to develop properly (unless you're David Lynch). You can't just pull answers out of nowhere and expect it to be satisfying. Agnes is present throughout the show but revealing her as the villain behind what going on isn't building off any hints shown previously. It's like solving a murder mystery by revealing the killer is some random side-character who hasn't really been involved in the story. Sure you can do it, but it's not really satisfying. I mean, I know who Agatha Harkness is from the comics and this was still a pretty limp reveal. "It was Agatha all along?". Great, it was all the plot of this person who wasn't a character through the first 7 episodes. Awesome. Really slapping myself for not putting the pieces together on that one earlier...

I feel like you're giving them a lot of leeway because comic books and the MCU have set up threats for future stories down the road, but the first rule of doing that is that you have to make sure the story you're currently telling still works on its own also. It can't all just be set up for "We'll see you in a year with Doctor Strange 2!". Again, maybe they can pull it off. Maybe the next episode will do a great job of making Agatha an interesting character. Making interesting villains has generally been the MCU's biggest struggling point, but maybe they've just discovered a new workaround. Just don't have a villain for 80% of the story and then it's not an issue.

[eldaec]

What they needed is a bunch more things like the dead dog. Ideally we also needed some idea of her motivation in the reveal.

But we're being fussy. Show is getting held to a higher standard than the movies are in this regard.

Certainly possible they've bitten off more than they can chew by implying there was a clever mystery behind the show. But if people are willing to pretend captain america 2 was a conspiracy thriller then this is also fine.

Show has been impressive for just giving film characters time to hang out on screen and introduce the new MCU ideas in something this weird. If the ending isn't shit that will be a bonus - but I'd still be happy enough if it is just explosions, that is all we ever get in the final hour of the films.

[Khaldun]

The thing about Avengers is that we get nothing on what Loki's ally is or what he wants, really. We don't really know what his plan is, other than one of those "get captured and pretend that was your plan all along" until we get to NYC. We don't really get much on the aliens or what their specific 411 is--they're just flying monkey minions told to destroy for no specific reason. (In fact, in retrospect, it makes even less sense than it did then in that it's not all clear what Thanos thought he was getting out of any of that or even what Loki expected from it--the people who spend time trying to figure this all out have had to come up with elaborate theories that Thanos was scared of Odin or was trying to avoid getting Captain Marvel's attention and that this was a way to use one Stone to get another Stone.) It doesn't really matter: the action works fine if you just tell yourself Loki wants to conquer the world and settle some scores with Thor or even that he's just Jokering it up and seeing the world burn. By the standard of "we need to have a full 411 on all the bad guys by halfway into the movie or it's no good", Avengers is a failure. (Contrarily, Age of Ultron is a roaring success because the baddie is introduced early and his basic motivation is clear throughout even though there's a MacGuffin he's chasing that he gives up on after it's taken away from him.)

Actually, though, now that I'm thinking of Age of Ultron,


Anyway, this series has established throughout that there's something really weird going on, that Wanda can't remember how she got in this situation or what she's trying to do, that maybe there's something else behind it, and that there's at least one antagonist--Hayward--who is up to no good. Anybody with even a passing familiarity with comic-books, thrillers, soap operas, etc., would naturally be on the alert by now for an unexpected or sudden reversal or reveal. At least one of the things that's happened was a huge clue that there's something way beyond Wanda's known scope of power going on--a Quicksilver from another reality showing up.

[Velorath]

The thing about Avengers is that we get nothing on what Loki's ally is or what he wants, really. We don't really know what his plan is, other than one of those "get captured and pretend that was your plan all along" until we get to NYC. We don't really get much on the aliens or what their specific 411 is--they're just flying monkey minions told to destroy for no specific reason. (In fact, in retrospect, it makes even less sense than it did then in that it's not all clear what Thanos thought he was getting out of any of that or even what Loki expected from it--the people who spend time trying to figure this all out have had to come up with elaborate theories that Thanos was scared of Odin or was trying to avoid getting Captain Marvel's attention and that this was a way to use one Stone to get another Stone.) It doesn't really matter: the action works fine if you just tell yourself Loki wants to conquer the world and settle some scores with Thor or even that he's just Jokering it up and seeing the world burn. By the standard of "we need to have a full 411 on all the bad guys by halfway into the movie or it's no good", Avengers is a failure. (Contrarily, Age of Ultron is a roaring success because the baddie is introduced early and his basic motivation is clear throughout even though there's a MacGuffin he's chasing that he gives up on after it's taken away from him.)

Thanos wants the Tesseract. Loki is tasked to get it and in return gets access to some of Thanos' army to take over Earth. Thor flat out asks Loki if he's doing because he lost the throne of Asgard and is going to try to rule Thor's adopted home as revenge. How Loki goes about his plan is a little convoluted, but it's pretty clear from the start what his goal is, and what the conflict of the movie is. It is all directly spelled out in the dialogue.

"we need to have a full 411 on all the bad guys by halfway into the movie or it's no good"

Fuck man, this is the same tack you took with your TLJ defense. That anytime someone is asking for a bit more definition/explanation of major characters or plot points that they're asking for a wikipedia entry to be info-dumped into the narrative (and everything basically is in Avengers except for Thanos' name).

To say "we need to have some idea of what the conflict is and who is involved prior to the last 10% of the story" is not to say we need every bit of detail filled in about them.

Also like I said, a mystery still needs to unfold in some logical way. You can't just handwave away basic storytelling by saying "well they hinted something was wrong so that means anything goes". If they hold with the Agatha Harkness thing they're literally doing the "a wizard did it" plot explanation. Nothing built up to the reveal other than the whole show being a bunch of odd shit going on. If they wanted to tell a story of Agatha trapping Wanda in a fake reality they could have done that in like 3 episodes. As it is, if Wanda was just being controlled/manipulated by Agatha, then we spent the first 3 episodes of this season watching zero characters who are acting under their own agency.

[Draegan]

I'm a simpleton when it comes to comics, I haven't really dove into any of the book material and I'm mostly familiar with the movies only.

That being said, I think the story is "whats going on" and "i'm confused" and "Wanda is acting strange".

We got the answer to "whats going on" in episode 3 and 4? (I think) when it was revealed who was speaking with Wanda from the outside.

We got a half answer to "I'm confused" with Agnes being revealed. We just don't know her motivations.

"Wanda is acting strange". So if we get a definitive answer to Wanda getting better/escaping/becoming a villain whatever, that will also satisfy a plotline.

Next week we can find out that Agnes stole/has/made a thing that allowed her to capture/manipulate Wanda in her distress to hardness energy or whatever to do a thing. So next week we learn about Agnes hopefully and confront her and her motivations. This "fight" to save Wanda and defeat Agnes is the "end" of the show. But in defeating Agnes we learn that her true master is X or she stole a thing from X who is now very angry.

This Dormumumumu dude from Strange (who I barely remember) can be like "Agnes broke the promise so therefore I'm coming back!" which sets up Strange 2.

Anyway, I think they're doing a great job with the show.

[DevilsAdvocate25]

What they needed is a bunch more things like the dead dog. Ideally we also needed some idea of her motivation in the reveal.

When I looked up this episode online, I found something curious in at least two places that isn't spelled out on the show:


I can't wait until next week to see if this is true or just internet fuckery.

[MahrinSkel]

I don't think there will be a reveal, as much as a very blatant hook that Agatha was acting in something else's behalf, and possibly not even willingly. It could come at the end, or they could save it for Multiverse of Madness.

--Dave

[Khaldun]

As long as they don't do what happened in the actual comics to Wanda's kids (first version before various retcons and reboots).

[NowhereMan]

I'm really not sure what they can do with them since they clearly don't seem to be human children i.e. they seem like some manifestation of the Hex. I'm also not persuaded that Agnes is the villain just yet. What she's been doing has been preventing Wanda from settling into her own little sitcom paradise but typically it's revolved around forcing her to confront the reality of what's happened to her and what she's doing. I guess it feels like such a weak villain reveal to show her as the bad guy that I'm kind of hoping she's a bit less villain / lackey for the main villain and instead something like a magic user who has been caught up in whatever is going on and interfering. The setup so far has been nuanced enough in presenting Wanda and other characters that I'll be disappointed if the finale is a shoot out with Agnes that frees Wanda and the SWORD guy gets arrested for trying to do stuff with Vision's body while screaming 'I'll get you next time Gadget Vision!'

[eldaec]

I'd be surprised if the children don't continue to exist in the MCU.

Killing kids with names and material screen time is a tough pitch in a script. And in this case there is a real option to use them as heroes in future so I'm not sure I see a good reason to let them die. The way they've jumped in age makes an even more convincing argument to keep them.

As for the finale, well if this were an MCU film it absolutely would be a shootout with Agatha and Sword wanting control of the hex,  Wanda, vision, spectrum and the kids trying to hold out against them.

Next week's episode is presumably going to lay out Agatha and Sword guy's motivation. Maybe with a flashback as I'm not sure there are any sit coms to cover after Modern Family. Then the final episode is explosions.

[HaemishM]

Since both the kids were part of the Young Avengers in the comics, and we also have Ant-Man's daughter in the MCU (who was also a character in Young Avengers) and we know there will be a Kate Bishop Hawkeye show (who was ALSO a Young Avenger), don't be surprised if the kids hang around and we eventually have a Defenders-style mini-series on Disney+ of the Young Avengers. If I was Marvel, that's what I'd be angling for.

[Khaldun]

I think they're pretty clearly going for some version of the Young Avengers (probably with Ms. Marvel added) in the future, so yeah, I'm sure the kids will be back. In fact, I wouldn't be that surprised if that's one of Strange's missions in the Multiverse of Madness is to find the kids and bring them back.

[Sky]

That new Ms Marvel is so dopey. Look, a shitty Elongated Man rip with giant FISTS.

Ye gods.

[Trippy]

Edit: Insert micro-agression about Asian names here.

It's okay, we all look alike too

[Trippy]

That new Ms Marvel is so dopey. Look, a shitty Elongated Man rip with giant FISTS.

Ye gods.

You mean Fantastic Man, and Ms. Marvel is awesome.

[Sky]

You mean Mr. Fantastic? He didn't go to Man School for 6 years to be called Man, man.

Wait...

How about Plastic Man?

Anyway, Reed Richards was dopey af, too. Flaming human, solid rock tank, invisible force field woman, and goddamned Stretch Armstrong over here.

I know nothing about the actual character other than seeing her powers and it was enough to hard pass on the Avengers game (even before I heard it was wildly mediocre).

[Trippy]

LOL yeah I somehow mixed Plastic Man and Mr. Fantastic in my head and ended up with Fantastic Man.

[Threash]

Stretching is the lamest super power, at least Reed Richards is 50% mad genius.

[Velorath]

You mean Mr. Fantastic? He didn't go to Man School for 6 years to be called Man, man.

Wait...

How about Plastic Man?

Anyway, Reed Richards was dopey af, too. Flaming human, solid rock tank, invisible force field woman, and goddamned Stretch Armstrong over here.

I know nothing about the actual character other than seeing her powers and it was enough to hard pass on the Avengers game (even before I heard it was wildly mediocre).

Ms. Marvel was one of the highlights of the Avengers game and one of the characters that felt the best to play.

[HaemishM]

The Ms. Marvel comics were great and as a character, she's awesome. Her powers aren't exactly stretchy powers so much as "embiggen!" It's kind of a loosely-defined series of powers. I recommend reading her comics if you are into it - they are well-written, well-drawn and quite sweet without being saccharine.

[Khaldun]

Stretching powers are one of those comic-book things that I don't think anyone has figured out how to do right outside of comic books, and it's not a matter of the CGI expensiveness. It's that they're really fucking gross outside of comic books. Ms. Marvel did a good job of trying to think about how to represent them differently in visual terms so that she was mostly "I can grow, I can shrink, I can make big fists, I'm kind of invulnerable" as opposed to "I'm the Silly Putty Man". It's really hard to figure out how not to look like body horror with a character who can stretch an eyeball around corners to see what's going on three hundred feet away (Elongated Man in the comics, frequently) or make a parachute, enveloping dome, etc. out of his body (Mr. Fantastic, frequently) while having all that still be flesh in some basic sense. Plastic Man obviously can hide the fleshiness of his shapes since he once changed himself into a dress for Big Barda without her noticing she was wearing a form-fitting flesh envelope until she realized the color scheme was Plastic Man's usual. But there's been descriptions in the comics of Reed Richards' body being warm/fleshlike on contact even when it's at maximum extension, so...gross? I will be interested to see how they solve this visually.

[Sky]

Well thanks for the nightmares, anyway.

[DevilsAdvocate25]

Stretching powers are one of those comic-book things that I don't think anyone has figured out how to do right outside of comic books, and it's not a matter of the CGI expensiveness. It's that they're really fucking gross outside of comic books. Ms. Marvel did a good job of trying to think about how to represent them differently in visual terms so that she was mostly "I can grow, I can shrink, I can make big fists, I'm kind of invulnerable" as opposed to "I'm the Silly Putty Man". It's really hard to figure out how not to look like body horror with a character who can stretch an eyeball around corners to see what's going on three hundred feet away (Elongated Man in the comics, frequently) or make a parachute, enveloping dome, etc. out of his body (Mr. Fantastic, frequently) while having all that still be flesh in some basic sense. Plastic Man obviously can hide the fleshiness of his shapes since he once changed himself into a dress for Big Barda without her noticing she was wearing a form-fitting flesh envelope until she realized the color scheme was Plastic Man's usual. But there's been descriptions in the comics of Reed Richards' body being warm/fleshlike on contact even when it's at maximum extension, so...gross? I will be interested to see how they solve this visually.

I think the Incredibles did a pretty good job of it with Elastigirl.

[Khaldun]

Yes. I'd forgotten that--she doesn't seem gross while doing all the basic things that Mr. Fantastic or Elongated Man have done. But I think this is one thing that might not cross over into a live-action/CGI visualization unless they are really thoughtful about how to do it.