WandaVision

[HaemishM]

I just binged this as well and I have to agree with schild. This shit is just perfect. Knowing how Feige has been with continuity for the last decade+ of movies, do not think that there is any choice that's been made in this thing that wasn't meticulously planned, even if some of it means very little. The surprise entrance at the end of the episode was likely a 100% confirmation that the X-Men are coming and perhaps even an explanation for how.

Did anyone notice that Wanda's Eastern European accent sort of came back in that showdown with the SWORD Director? Just for a second, but it's something that has been dropped since Winter Soldier - and now it returned, if only for a second. I think that might have something to do with what's going on. And I do think this could be a way to get the Fantastic Four in as well, in much the same kind of way as their origin in the Ultimate Universe. It's kind of amazing to see but I think they really are rewriting and resetting the status quo of the whole universe with this really odd but incredible homage to the history of television sitcoms.

[Khaldun]

If they do bring the FF in and it's the Ultimate FF, though, I'm fucking done, because I just loathe the Ultimate FF. But I trust these guys--they aren't gonna do that.

[HaemishM]

Nah, it'll be like the Ultimates in that it'll be a more grounded version, but I don't think we're going to get Reed as idiotic super villain. Man that series went full retard shortly after Marvel Zombies showed up.

Also, I thought it was already confirmed that Secret Invasion was the theme for the next phase, which means Skrulls.

[Threash]

Wanda's accent comes back when she is angry, it came back when she punted Geraldine and when she fought Thanos in Endgame. As someone bilingual I can tell you that this is absolutely DEAD ON what happens.

[Sky]

which means Skrulls.

I sure the fuck hope not. The lamest trope that always immediately turns me off is the old shapeshifter/clone/mindcontrol gag. So cheap and milked for so much fake drama.

Even putting a goatee on the evil clone is an improvement, in my opinion.

[Khaldun]

Well, they're already messing around with Skrulls some but they're so different already from the regular universe version that however they do this it's gonna be different.

Skrulls in the MU have worked best when it's either been a quick one-shot "the authorities turn on Our Heroes because they are suddenly acting very evil, and Our Heroes must rush to clear their names by finding the shape-shifters", which I think is already a played-out storyline in multiple ways in the MCU, or "Our Heroes turn on each other because it's not clear who has been body snatched" which I think only works when the characters have known each other for a very long time and spend a lot of time in each other's company.

So yeah, I hope they mostly avoid Secret Invasion also. Or switch it up big time from the comic-book version.

[Sky]

Well, they're already messing around with Skrulls some but they're so different already from the regular universe version that however they do this it's gonna be different.

Skrulls in the MU have worked best when it's either been a quick one-shot "the authorities turn on Our Heroes because they are suddenly acting very evil, and Our Heroes must rush to clear their names by finding the shape-shifters", which I think is already a played-out storyline in multiple ways in the MCU, or "Our Heroes turn on each other because it's not clear who has been body snatched" which I think only works when the characters have known each other for a very long time and spend a lot of time in each other's company.

So yeah, I hope they mostly avoid Secret Invasion also. Or switch it up big time from the comic-book version.

Well, they announced Secret Invasion, so...hopefully the latter?

https://disneyplusoriginals.disney.com/show/secret-invasion

[Khaldun]

Right--I just mean that it doesn't look like that's the big spectacular ending of the current phase of films. It might give them a chance to further complicate the history of SHIELD/HYDRA/SWORD, maybe to build some new wrinkles or complications in the history of the MCU, etc. which is all fine, I just don't want it to be the huge crossover premise of something like Infinity War/Endgame.

[HaemishM]

Since Secret Invasion sucked so hard in the comics, and Wanda's mental breakdown in the comics that caused Avengers Disassembled and House of M was also so badly written, I'm more inclined to think they can handle those themes without them turning into stupid shit like Norman Osborn becoming an evil Iron Man analogue or Thor Clones killing Black Goliath.

[Teleku]

Yeah, on the one hand, the comic versions of these events shit sucked.  On the other....the overall IDEA of them wasn't necessarily bad, just the execution.  I'm willing to give MCU benefit of the doubt they can adapt the basic ideas into something fun (and WandaVision seems to be doing that well so far in terms of House of M stupidity).  Still makes me nervous.

[HaemishM]

It's based on comics. At any moment, it could descend into navel-gazing dipshittery of the highest order, and I say that as a huge comic nerd. 

[Khaldun]

I kind of liked the Dark Avengers period--it was a reasonably smart coda to the worst parts of Civil War and Secret Invasion. (E.g., heroes fight with each other, let government take control of superpowered people, leads to the really bad guys taking over the establishment and going to some bad and dark places with that power, which leads to the return of the good guys as the public begins to realize what they let come in the door).

[HaemishM]

Concept wasn't bad - execution was shit, just like Civil War and most of the big Marvel crossover stories on that period.

[Raguel]

Concept wasn't bad - execution was shit, just like Civil War and most of the big Marvel crossover stories on that period.

"What is 'something written by Bendis/Millar?'"

couldn't sleep so watched episode 6.

Really great episode, I think it's particularly unnerving considering the last 5 min or so of the previous episode. Did the writers just forget some of what was said then or is this a hint of something more sinister going on?

I really like the family dynamics, and the fan service in this is jacked up to 11 (or maybe I just recognized more of the "Easter eggs" this time around).

Not sure if this counts as a spoiler but just in case:
Also my favorite bit:

[Abagadro]

Ya, good episode. They are firing on all cylinders on this thing.


Also the

[MediumHigh]

Am I the only one who feels that show is trying a little hard to make us believe that Wanda is not the villain here. Despite the mounting evidence that even if this was unintentional at one point... this is pretty unacceptable even by leave it to beaver to standard.

[Threash]

I thought they were trying too hard to make us think she is :P

[Khaldun]

100% certain now that the "it's all Wanda" is a misdirect. I mean, "Quicksilver" practically says "beats having red shit coming out of your hands" or something to that effect which is pretty much "oh yeah, something's fueling your power in very new ways".

I have to say that the Mephisto theorists got a big boost this episode--Quicksilver was acting very Mephisto-ish and was even sporting the horns, and it's easy to see that Wanda could be some kind of gate/key to the expansion of an extradimensional realm ("Hell") into Earth in the last quarter of the episode. But maybe that's too simple too. Maybe if this is some kind of interdimensional portal that's got nothing to do with Wanda per se, what we're seeing is a bunch of different kinds of fuckers swarming towards it--Mephisto, whomever Hayward is (no way is he just some bureaucrat), Agnes, etc. because it's a huge opportunity or source of power. Could end up something like the MCU's equivalent of Cynosure or Sigil--a permanently contested multiversal/multidimensional zone.

[eldaec]

I hope it is all Wanda. But it would mean turning her into a straight up villain. Which I doubt they are doing. And anyway there is no way our plucky heroes on the outside are going to be dead wrong about a thing.

[MahrinSkel]

If there's a theme here, it's "misdirects behind misdirects, everything is both deep and exactly what it says on the tin." They're not going to resolve this in a simple binary "Wanda is the big bad? Yes/No." There's going to be very deliberate loose ends, and very deliberate lies, everybody is an unreliable narrator.

--Dave

[Riggswolfe]

This show drives me crazy in the best ways. Every episode I zig-zag about my thoughts on what is going on. In this episode I actually did it twice in the same episode. There was clear evidence Wanda is behind it all. And clear evidence she wasn't. So hell if I know what's going on now. Except Director Hayward needs to go down.

Also...a question

[HaemishM]

This show is goddamn amazing. I'm going to spoiler what I think is going on - it may be a long shot, but we'll see.


I could be wrong, but don't really care if I am. I'm just loving how well they are taking so many pieces from these characters source material, stripping them of the worst of comics bullshit and turning in a fantastic piece of movie making.

[Raguel]

Someone or something else has to be behind it all. Even if Wanda just got powered up through grief, it doesn't explain how the tv signal is embedded in the CMB.

I saw a theory on twitter  that postulated everything we've seen in the show is created by Wanda, not just what's in the hex. That would explain the above and a line from today's episode (Wanda said something about remembering being alone and in endless darkness; I originally took that to mean her mental state but maybe that was a literal description of her environment).

I thought the writers had forgotten Vision said there were no kids but on re watch I see Pietro bring that up.

I kind of hope that the villain isn't someone we've seen before, but also is Unrelenting in their awfulness. 

[Velorath]

I'm still not convinced there's some other villain behind all this simply because I don't know that there's anything thematically satisfying with a 3rd act villain reveal in a story that up until now has been largely about dealing with grief and loss.

My other thought right now is that Wanda's powers in both the comics and in the MCU have largely been hard to define. Comics went from altering probability (which itself is a can of worms), to chaos magic, to altering reality. The MCU has done a weird thing where contact with an Infinity Stone can cause people to develop powers... somehow. And not even powers that are defined by what Infinity Stone was was. Wanda has some mental powers which would kinda make sense because she was powered using the mind stone, but then Pietro got super speed (which would make more sense with the space stone or time stone). I think the lack of definition in the MCU is because Age of Ultron was over-stuffed as it was, but I could see one of the goals of WandaVision to possibly be establishing what her powers actually are, what are their limits, and what is the cost of using them.

The other odd thing about Wanda's powers is that especially now in WandaVision she's displayed almost all the powers of the Infinity Gems. She has mind powers, can alter reality, has energy blasts (power), has created two kids (soul), is possibly tapping into other dimensions (space), and has rewound time (although that could just be her control of the reality she has made). There's also six Infinity Stones and her reality is contained in a six-sided shape. Probably just crazy speculation, but just something I was thinking of in regard to how many powers she has displayed.

[eldaec]

It can still be about grief and loss if Wanda has been convinced to do something awful by someone much worse.

I'm ready for them to get on and give us Wanda's PoV though.

And if they decide Wanda is the antagonist for the whole next phase I'm here for that. They've struggled for villains in the MCU and Olsen deserves more screen time.

But I'm super doubtful.

The commercial this week definitely seemed to hint at a deal with someone like Mephisto that Wanda will not get what she hoped from.

[Khaldun]

I like Haemish's idea.

[Teleku]

They've tried to hard to make sure Wanda's hands are clean (not actually hurting anybody directly) for me to think they are going to turn her into the big bad.  She's being used by whatever.

Also, any thoughts on who the person that will get Monica back into the Hex will be?

[MahrinSkel]

I like Haemish's idea.

I think that's just one of many comics Easter eggs. The costumes, embedded numbers that reference key comic volumes, they really packed them in.


--Dave

[Velorath]

They've tried to hard to make sure Wanda's hands are clean (not actually hurting anybody directly) for me to think they are going to turn her into the big bad.  She's being used by whatever.

Also, any thoughts on who the person that will get Monica back into the Hex will be?

Wanda knows she's holding people there and controlling them against their will so it's hard to say her hands are clean. It might have not been done intentionally at first but now she's been making the choice to perpetuate it. If the writers try to say that this is all due to manipulation or mind control then at some point we haven't actually been watching a show about Wanda, we've been watching a show about someone who suffered trauma being used as a puppet with no agency because of it, which is a much less interesting story to tell for this many episodes.

[MahrinSkel]

Theory about the commercials: Each one represents an episode in Wanda's life:

Stark Toaster, "Forget the past, this is your future": The bomb that she and Pietro stared at in their destroyed apartment.

Strucker Watch, "Strucker, he'll make time for you": Strucker and Hydra taking her and her brother in.

Hydra Soak, "Find the goddess within": The success of the Hydra experiments with the Mind Stone.

Lagos Paper Towels, "Lagos. For when you make a mess you didn’t mean to": Umm, yeah, kind of on the nose there.

Yo-Magic Yogurt, “Yo-Magic. The snack for survivors": If this represents anything we've seen on screen before WandaVision, I can't imagine what it is. There's no name associated with it, the whole thing is an allegory for a Faustian bargain, the shark is nameless, the little boy dies in claymation grotesqueness. In an episode littered with deeper meaning and references behind everything, this is completely disconnected. Pretty sure it has to represent what happened with Wanda after Endgame.

Wanda made a deal with someone or something, and it's both exactly what she bargained for and a hellish nightmare.

--Dave

[Teleku]

They've tried to hard to make sure Wanda's hands are clean (not actually hurting anybody directly) for me to think they are going to turn her into the big bad.  She's being used by whatever.

Also, any thoughts on who the person that will get Monica back into the Hex will be?

Wanda knows she's holding people there and controlling them against their will so it's hard to say her hands are clean. It might have not been done intentionally at first but now she's been making the choice to perpetuate it. If the writers try to say that this is all due to manipulation or mind control then at some point we haven't actually been watching a show about Wanda, we've been watching a show about someone who suffered trauma being used as a puppet with no agency because of it, which is a much less interesting story to tell for this many episodes.

Sort of.  If she's having her feelings being manipulated, she can always come out as "oh shit, I really didn't know how terrible this was for all of you, I convinced myself everybody was as happy as I was", ect ect, when everything clears.  Or something like that.  It's possible to write ways to be sympathetic.  If she outright vaporizes an FBI agent, well then now she's evil.

Having said all that:

If the writers try to say that this is all due to manipulation or mind control then at some point we haven't actually been watching a show about Wanda, we've been watching a show about someone who suffered trauma being used as a puppet with no agency because of it, which is a much less interesting story to tell for this many episodes.

I got the feeling that's exactly what this will more or less end up as.  The public is fine with somebody going through trauma being manipulated.  They don't like watching the show about the mother who gets Postnatal depression and drowns her three kids, which is basically what your suggesting.  Especially when it's one of Marvels only female super heroes.

[Velorath]

I got the feeling that's exactly what this will more or less end up as.  The public is fine with somebody going through trauma being manipulated.  They don't like watching the show about the mother who gets Postnatal depression and drowns her three kids, which is basically what your suggesting.  Especially when it's one of Marvels only female super heroes.

One of those at least is a story with a character arc. The other is a plot device masquerading as a character arc especially if the goal is to have Wanda's hands totally clean by the end. Mephisto/Nightmare/whoever is an evil manipulator who evilly manipulated Wanda isn't a terrible story to tell, but if that's the route they're going it could have been done in about 3 episodes instead of 9. We're 2/3 of the way through and if Darcy, Monica, and Woo are the only characters in the show we've been watching who have any real agency then it doesn't make for a particularly good story in retrospect. In the absence of following any actual non-mind controlled characters aside from the three previously mentioned (two of which are absent for the first few episodes), it makes almost everything we've watched so far just a collection of mystery boxes and references to the history of TV sitcoms.

The middle ground is that you say that the villain gave her a nudge but she's the one who acted on it and continued keep it going even as she realized the consequences, but then you can't handwave away her guilt and you're functionally back to your postnatal depression analogy except that when she's drowning her kids there's someone whispering in her ear telling her what a good idea it is.

[Teleku]

Perhaps!  I'm not really confident on any guess because this entire show in and of itself is such a departure from what I expected them to make.  I'm applying my standard Hollywood Studio Logic to this, but it could got in any direction for all I know because it's already pretty far out there.

[HaemishM]

As for the mother who drowns their three kids, that real life story was the basis for my 3rd Cthulhu novella, Drowned. If you've read it, I'll let you be the judge as to whether or not it makes for a sympathetic or interesting story to have a mother suffering post-partum drown her children in a bathtub by providing something that manipulates her into doing it. There's a lot to be said for this being an interesting study on mental health and how we are allowed to suffer from grief without help. Considering the entire MCU Earth spent 5 years grieving and Hayward's reactions are a direct result of that, there's plenty of interesting ways this can go.

I don't think they are trying to get Wanda out of this with clean hands at all. She's pretty clearly made some choices consciously to protect her weird little ideal world, and though she hasn't killed anyone, the mindfuck that the townsfolk have had to go through is no small thing at all. They could fuck this all up if they don't stick the landing in the last 3 episodes, but the first 6 have given me confidence they will come up with something that's at least good.

[NowhereMan]

Theory about the commercials: Each one represents an episode in Wanda's life:

Yo-Magic Yogurt, “Yo-Magic. The snack for survivors": If this represents anything we've seen on screen before WandaVision, I can't imagine what it is. There's no name associated with it, the whole thing is an allegory for a Faustian bargain, the shark is nameless, the little boy dies in claymation grotesqueness. In an episode littered with deeper meaning and references behind everything, this is completely disconnected. Pretty sure it has to represent what happened with Wanda after Endgame.

Wanda made a deal with someone or something, and it's both exactly what she bargained for and a hellish nightmare.

--Dave

I think that one does fit really well for the current events. Something offered Wanda a magic solution to help fill the void in her heart/life/soul due to Vision's death and she took that but it turns out all she's gotten is a constant, tantalisingly close taste of nourishment and satisfaction but the whole time she's not actually getting what she wants and she's slowly dying. Which if we accept she's consciously hurting the people she's trapped there, her attempt to recapture happiness and connection through this magic is causing her to slowly drive everyone away and traumatise herself to the point where it's not fixable.

Recast Pietro is definitely overly aware of what's going on, there is clearly some outside agency going on although my first guess was that he could well be some aspect of Wanda's own psyche trying to get her to confront what's going.  would work well, although the hair I think is just a fun homage to Quicksilver's comic look. I am curious if the hexagonal aspect comes up as more than just a reason to refer to Wanda's powers as Hexs again.