Robert Jordan's "The Wheel of Time" Visible Spoilers Thread

[Rasix]

I can't even find a mentioning of a Dragon other than Lews Therin. They'd have no concept of Dragons previous to him, other than the necessity that they exisit due to their concept of time and reincarnation. The Dragon lived in a time frame that they know so little about it's technological advancements are basically magic.

It's just a dumb TV plot contrivance. The books never set it up as any sort of grand mystery and there's so much heavy foreshadowing even during the first attack in Two Rivers.

I can live with it as long as they don't try to run with one of the others as a dragon for any extended period of time. That would just be really fucking dumb.

[Ashamanchill]

I can't even find a mentioning of a Dragon other than Lews Therin. They'd have no concept of Dragons previous to him, other than the necessity that they exisit due to their concept of time and reincarnation.

There are supposed to be an infinite other amount of Dragons, as this universe is, well, a wheel (so, I guess there is no Big Bang, but instead the Big Price is Right Spin? And hey why is there mention of dinosaurs? that requires some sort of liner time), it gets mentioned by the big badzo., and also by Hawkwing. But yes, Lews Therin is the only important one who is in line for Screen Actors Guild representation.

It's a perfectly fine plot device for fresh fans of this series who also haven't seen the way any series ever frames its main character.

The Aes Sedai know for a fact the male half of the source is tainted, they have an entire Ajah dedicated to hunting men because of that taint.  Multiple times in the books it is brought up by different Aes Sedai in a wondering way "What are we going to do if the Red Ajah gentles the real Dragon Reborn".  There is no way Moraine is not aware of all of this since she has made the Dragon Reborn the primary focus of her life's work.

In the books, yes. For the show, that is not mutually exclusive to Moraine not knowing the sex (and thus power source) of the new Dragon. There could easily be some flashback along the lines of: "Hey guys, ya we could luck out and it's a dragonette, but that's a 50/50 chance ya know."

To reiterate, the Aes Sedai, and the world, not knowing the sex of the new dragon is fine, that isn't really critical to the spirit of the book series. The new Dragon reborn actually being a male is.

[lamaros]

Ultimately this comes back to what you think is interesting in the book series and want to focus on getting across in a necessarily abridged TV show.

I'm not quite sure what the show runners of the TV series think that is as yet. Im pretty sure they can't make a play for the grand scheme, as they won't get enough time. But they seem pretty content to rush through the first book and skip the world building and character growth of a fantasy adventure story too.

[Ashamanchill]

If they are series about this going on long term they are going to have to cut in a way that will put Edward Scissor hands to shame. But there are still core concepts, themes, and events that make the show The Wheel of Time, and not just a show set in this pretty generic fantasy world. Like it or not, the stuff involving the identity of the Dragon Reborn is just that.

[Salamok]

I think they may have actually hit the sweet spot on production quality/cost but the writing and directing has not resulted in a followable story line so far, as a result counting on "new fans" to provide long term support is probably not going to happen.  For an easy win they could have not gone out of their way to piss off the fan base and probably provided enough runway to finish the series with the current quality level.  Probably too early to tell but it almost feels to me like someone based the script on a reading of the book in a version of a language they were not entirely fluent in and lost the plot as they got caught up in Jordan's unnecessarily verbose (and frequently less than stellar) prose.

I have a very low threshold when it comes to finding entertainment in a movie or show so I'll probably gladly watch this until the end but I feel like they have backed themselves into a self fulfilling prophesy of not making it past 1 or 2 seasons. (which is what I am probably most upset over)   Many people seem to be thinking GoT was the bar when the reality is GoT is the current ceiling, Shannarah is closer to the bar (well a bit below the bar but closer none the less),  if this had been done 80% as well as the Expanse it probably would have been successful enough to tell the whole story over as many seasons as they needed.

[Ashamanchill]

FWIW, the showrunner did an AMA recently https://www.reddit.com/r/television/comments/r19e96/im_rafe_judkins_showrunner_and_executive_producer/  and that mother fucker was incredibly well versed in the plots and characters of the book. Take from that what you will, but it's why I'm not super concerned with this whole m/f Dragon thing, and I'm pretty sure it's a smoke screen.

[Rendakor]

It's obviously a smokescreen meant for non-book readers.

[lamaros]

Yes, the question is why.

Does a mystery about who the dragon is drive something interesting? Is that more interesting than what is actually in the books, given that making this Dragon mystery means other stuff has to give room to it?

As someone who watched all 4 current episodes before starting to read the first book, my feeling is.. I get why the dragon uncertainty is there, it's in the book and it also drives the uncertainty of the male characters as they start their journey. It gives tension to the world through Logain maybe but probably not but maybe being the real Dragon.

It makes almost no sense to include the women in it though. It doesn't give women greater agency in the story in a meaningful way, they exist already and have their own journeys to go on.

I think a fair bit has been lost in establishing the characters distinctly by lumping them together under this, actually. They've not progressed any of them much in four episodes.

[Rendakor]

Yea, I'm not sure of the why either, other than to seem inclusive or woke somehow (and I really hate making that argument). I have noticed that whenever they talk about the Dragon being a man or a woman, the speaking character is offscreen, so it feels like a hasty reshoot to me. They really have not gone out of there way at any point to make Egwene a viable candidate, and despite showing how powerful Nynaeve is she is not the right age. In fact, Nynaeve's incredible power rules out Egwene, making the whole thing pointless. It's possible that in Ep. 5 they start wondering if they got the age wrong, but that will make the whole premise feel silly.

[lamaros]

Yeah if it's for woke reasons it's especially dumb, as it undermines the female characters the most. It ties them as add-ons to the boys story, rather than their own more complicated motivations for being there. And it makes Moiraine less of a strong character too.

But it's done, so eh. Hopefully they drop it soon.

Edit: Going back to my earlier question about "why is this even interesting as a TV show", my pitch - based on reading this thread and the bits of book I have so far - is something like: High fantasy adventure in a post apocalyptic world in which human soul re-incarnation is real. Young heroes' journeys, but accelerated and accentuated by the impact of past souls and events to fun dramatic heights.

Is that fair, is the show going to hit that? I don't think they've nailed it so far, but maybe they're going to accelerate into it now they've given Nynaeve her moment, and everyone else is going to start to get in on the act. Or maybe they still want us to care about world building like GoT, for a series that should actually be character and event driven instead...

[Rendakor]

I'm assuming we find out who the Dragon is by the season finale, if not sooner.

[Ashamanchill]

Well then, if the guy who is coming in as fresh as you can isn't buying it, then that's about it for that. On to more important stuff.

Like how the women channeling the power at someone look like they are firing hadoukens.

[Salamok]

They really have not gone out of there way at any point to make Egwene a viable candidate, and despite showing how powerful Nynaeve is she is not the right age.

FWIW in the books only a very small group of people is aware of how old the Dragon Reborn is and Morraine isn't really known for remediating peoples ignorance,  especially when that ignorance helps protect the dragon reborn.  

[Khaldun]

Ok, but generally, the idea of the Dragon BEING Reborn is roughly at the level of knowing who Julius Caesar is as if we knew he was inevitably going to be reincarnated but also bullshit artists would claim to be him. Everybody knows the Dragon could be (will be!) Reborn; only Moiraine and a few others know it's happening now. (well, a few others plus the Dark One and all of his forces...)

[Ashamanchill]

And not only bullshit artists. Because the whole male half of the power was tainted towards insanity, the chances were slanted toward male channelers actually believing they were the Dragon Reborn.

[SurfD]

yeah, most False Dragons didn't go around trying to be "The" Dragon for kicks.  They usually did it because they were literally going nuts from the Taint on the male half of the power.   and the few who did try it as a legit attempt at tricking the gullible into thinking they were The Dragon as some kind of power play without being able to channel would have quickly found themselves either brutally murdered by an angry mob or made a very painful example of by a group of Reds.

[SurfD]

I can't even find a mentioning of a Dragon other than Lews Therin. They'd have no concept of Dragons previous to him, other than the necessity that they exisit due to their concept of time and reincarnation. The Dragon lived in a time frame that they know so little about it's technological advancements are basically magic.

It's just a dumb TV plot contrivance. The books never set it up as any sort of grand mystery and there's so much heavy foreshadowing even during the first attack in Two Rivers.

Yeah, it's kind of silly to imply that there were "Female Dragons" in the past, when there has only ever been ONE Dragon: Lewis Therin Telamon.    He is destined to be reborn, but he hasn't been yet.    Nobody in previous cycles would have been "The Dragon", because that is a title that belongs exclusively to Lewis, and only Lewis.   Previous incarnations of his soul might have been called something else, but it wouldn't have been "The Dragon" and those names would be lost so far back they would have been dusty, forgotten myths even DURING the Age of Legends itself.

Sure, in the 3000 odd years since the breaking, there have been lots of "False" Dragons, but there has never been "The Dragon Reborn" until Rand, and the very idea that there could even BE Female False Dragons changes a metric shitload of things when you get into how that would change things historically and the way various power dynamics would evolve as the world pulls itself out of the aftermath of the Breaking.

[RhyssaFireheart]

I realized over Thanksgiving weekend that we actually have a Prime account so I could watch this.

Overall, I've enjoyed it but I've read the books so I have more than a vague idea of what's going on.  The diversity cast doesn't bother me at all, really.  Rand is different looking enough to tell he's not "native", everyone else looks like they more or less fit.  There really needed to be more world building from the beginning though, especially in Emond's Field.  Give us more of a feel for the small, rather isolated village life before having the trollocs invade and burn it all down. 

Also - what freaking time of the year is it?  Fall?  Early Winter?  Late Spring?  Asking because no one seems to have dressed appropriately for what seems to be cold/frost weather, especially not after Shador Logoth, which was rushed as all hell.

I actually didn't mind the age-up bits for the main chars.  If the three boys are all 20, then it makes sense in in the society they're supposedly in to be married or with someone, so Perrin being married didn't bother me.  Gave more of a reason to be axe adverse than hanging around and absorbing the Tinker nonsense.  Which reminds me - I thought Perrin was more the strong, silent type too aware of his own strength kind of character.  Not someone walking around looking and acting like he doesn't have two brain cells to rub together.  The scenes meeting up with the caravan just felt very 'hurp durrrr" to me.  I did not expect the Tinkers to be an urban hippy commune.  I did expect them to be more brightly colored with their clothing, although some of that may be from the artwork associated with the books (look, Darryl K Sweet was -not- the best illustrator out there.  Too bad they couldn't get a god-tier artist like Whelan for the whole series but at least it's wasn't Rowena).

I'm really curious why the actor for Mat was changed because the scenes of him being all strange and finding the fade in the Gill's house were really good, IMO.  So far he's done a good job of selling someone who's losing it but in a subtle way.  I don't mind Thom Merrilin either and whoever said he should look weathered but not like a geezer on his last legs was right. Rand and Mat meeting up with Thom felt too rushed and out-of-the-blue to me and the exposition about the Aiel was.. light on any details.  The whole "I can tell you're from the Two Rivers because of how you dress/talk" had no backing in the episode at all.  That's the first time we see them around non-TR folks and it all looks the same.  I mean, make it obvious their shirts are buttoned differently or they wear a scarf or something.  The "speaks differently" is harder to pull off without resorting to accents which can come off sounding dumb.

The ajahs - there needs to be something besides the opening (which is kind of neat) that shows what's going on with the different colors.  So far we've seen blue (Moraine), red (Liandrin and others), and green (Karene? and going by what I've read, Alanna as well with her two warders).  We see the colors in that opening sequence but have no context.  Maybe that's coming down the road because hand feeding the viewers every bit of information isn't ideal but you have to give something to help form a framework.  I like that the warders were shown to be pretty normal guys overall, even Lan.  Book Lan comes off as too mysterious and inscrutable in hindsight while TV Lan has a bit of personality.  I like the interactions between Lan and Nynaeve a lot better in the show.  They actually interact more than in the books and her reaction when Lan was injured foreshadows more between them, IMO.  I hope they don't use that reaction as a way to remove her block though, that needs to stay.

I really like the portrayal of Logain.  Him having an accept shows he's from a different part of Randland while not being obnoxious about it.  The actor is great (and sexy!). He's got the feel and the menace of the character.

Oh - clothing changes.  THANK YOU!  The idea that these Aes Sedai were riding around the countryside in silks and fine linens and dresses with embroidery and delicate skippers and such... nonsense.  That is pure fantasy tripe with doesn't take into account reality.  Having the women wearing pants or legging under half-skirts or or skort type of pant?  Perfect.  It makes sense.  It can still be finer fabric that usually seen but it makes total sense to me. Some of the clothing designs screamed modern a bit too much (Egwene's coat, Alanna's decorative chains on her coat) but overall it felt much more logical than the source books.

I'll definitely keep watching because it scratches an itch and the actors aren't hard on the eyes IMO.  Works for me.

[Khaldun]

Let me just say that for a bunch of peasants, that's some mighty nice and varied clothing they're all wearing when they 23-skidoo at the end of the first episode.

[Threash]

I didn't really think we needed more emond's field, might be because that was the worst episode. We definitely needed more Shadar Logoth though, and it needed to be way scarier and less actiony.

[Rendakor]

An episode of peaceful introduction would have gone a long way to making me care about the various dead mooks, including Perrin's new wife. I honestly don't remember who else died at all, which really says a lot for our heroes' supposed tragic backstory.

[lamaros]

The pacing, and decisions, have also poorly explained the characters choices and motivations. They've just all gone along blindly and stupidly with it. They could have taken a moment for the boys to verify they were targeted, to explain Perrin has some idea of geography and where he's trying to get to, etc.

Instead they insert sex scenes which add almost nothing, have over the top dancing magic, etc.

It's a mediocre show, expect and embrace that, and just go with it for the next couple of seasons before the inevitable cancellation.

[Rendakor]

The scene where the Fade is chasing Rand and Tam would really have helped drive home that at least he was a specific target. I don't really remember if the others got similar moments, but they certainly could have given each of them a different, creepy dream if they wanted to go that route.

[slog]

The pacing, and decisions, have also poorly explained the characters choices and motivations. They've just all gone along blindly and stupidly with it. They could have taken a moment for the boys to verify they were targeted, to explain Perrin has some idea of geography and where he's trying to get to, etc.

Instead they insert sex scenes which add almost nothing, have over the top dancing magic, etc.

It's a mediocre show, expect and embrace that, and just go with it for the next couple of seasons before the inevitable cancellation.

One thing that caught me by surprise is when Egwene goes through the ritual to become a women in a folksy traditional farm village way, and then 5 minutes later she's lying in bed with Rand acting like they get it on routinely.   

[Khaldun]

I actually didn't mind that--that's a good bit of updating of the sensibilities involved.

[Tale]

I rewatched episode 1, which I had seen as corny, after reaching episode 4 and starting to thoroughly enjoy things.

I haven't read the books (turns out I own book 1, but never finished it). Things I came to appreciate on the rewatch:

- The RPG-like spellcasting system (with particle effects lol). There's casting time, casting can be interrupted, and casters are squishy and benefit from a tank. No Gandalf-with-a-sword and no "shazam!" spellcasting.

- The RPG-like weapons system. Rand's dad gets out his Sword of Trollocing +3 and can fight better. Next episode, Mat finds a Cursed Dagger of Vomiting -1 or whatever it is (I'm probably underestimating the seriousness of that) but it's like D&D weapons.

- The visiting merchant who buys Mat's bracelet (so he can buy lanterns) is a Darkfriend spying on the village. On the first rewatch I didn't even notice him slinking away as the trollocs arrived.

- Things that initially seemed like direct copies of the LotR movies seemed more like tributes on the rewatch. The opening with Moiraine reciting history like Galadriel, the trollocs chasing the party through the woods like Uruk-hai, fording the river on horseback like in Fellowship of the Ring. Given the competence of the later episodes, I think they actually meant to echo those scenes.

[Ashamanchill]

The first book is an extra strength homage to LoTR. Lan is Aaragorn (we will learn more of that later), Moirane and Thom split the role of Gandalf. The setting of the Two Rivers is basically the shire, right down to their sweet tobacco. Shadar Logoth is Minas Morgul.  None of this is accidental, mind you. Robert Jordan was up front about this: it was important for a brand new IP at the time to put the reader in a familiar place before he could take the story where he wanted.

[Reg]

I've just started a full reread of the whole series. One thing I didn't remember is that in the books Thom Merrilin was actually in Emond's Field for the Trolloc attack. He was performing at the inn. If they'd left that in the series it would explain how he knows all about the Two Rivers.

I also recall people talking about Birgitte (who nerds will all remember) as if she'd been reborn dozens of times always ending up being a great hero along with her male partner. At least that's how it sounded to me. They definitely never talked about the Dragon as if they remembered the previous age he'd been around in. Maybe some people have shorter wheels and get reborn more frequently?

[Ashamanchill]

The reincarnation cosmology is inconsistent. Artur Hawkwing, does comment on fighting with the Dragon at the Last Battle, sometimes against him. And Ishamael frequently remarks on how many times him and the Dragon have fought.

[Khaldun]

It never felt to me like Jordan entirely bought into reincarnation as a central premise of his world-building; e.g., it's a surface-level thing that matters when it matters but not a fundamental root-level premise of the world really even though everybody in the world says it is.

edit: Also I really find Jordan's naming conventions annoying because they do not sound even slightly consistent or coherent; it's like the wretchedness of generic fantasy geography that says there must be a desert region with desert people, a jungle region with jungle people, a mountain region with mountain people, a plains region with plains people, etc. often right the fuck next to each other in a way that makes no geophysical sense at all and where the weather systems that ought to result appear absent.

[Rendakor]

I've just started a full reread of the whole series. One thing I didn't remember is that in the books Thom Merrilin was actually in Emond's Field for the Trolloc attack. He was performing at the inn. If they'd left that in the series it would explain how he knows all about the Two Rivers.

I also recall people talking about Birgitte (who nerds will all remember) as if she'd been reborn dozens of times always ending up being a great hero along with her male partner. At least that's how it sounded to me. They definitely never talked about the Dragon as if they remembered the previous age he'd been around in. Maybe some people have shorter wheels and get reborn more frequently?

My takeaway was that the title, Dragon, was exclusively Lews Therin's (until his rebirth) but that he had in fact been reborn many times before that and was still an important figure.

[Ashamanchill]

I'm pretty sure he hasn't been reborn since the Breaking. Or if he has, no mention is made of it at all, and would just be speculation.  My take away is, The Dragon soul is so pattern warpingly powerful, it only gets spun out when it is needed. Sorry sucker.

[Rendakor]

I don't disagree with that. In fact, I honestly thought most people were only reborn once per age.

[Salamok]

I'm pretty sure he hasn't been reborn since the Breaking. Or if he has, no mention is made of it at all, and would just be speculation.  My take away is, The Dragon soul is so pattern warpingly powerful, it only gets spun out when it is needed. Sorry sucker.

The books almost hint that the dragon is only spun out at the ending/beginning of an age or even possibly at a full turn of the wheel.

[Typhon]

I thought it must be twice;

is that wrong?