Robert Jordan's "The Wheel of Time" Visible Spoilers Thread

[HaemishM]

It's entirely possible they are only planning to "adapt" Eye of the World and maybe one season for an ending and have just decided to light the rest of the books on fire for warmth in the writer's room.

Probably for the best. 

[Ashamanchill]

If you don't like fantasy, you'll hate this, if you do, chances are good you'll like this unless you are the most anal retentive incel Jordan fanatic on the Internet.

Hey! I may be an an anal retentive, incel, and a Jordan fanatic, but I'm not- what was the forth thing you said?

[Tale]

If it has a big enough cult following it could be saved by Netflix the same way Lucifer was.

It's on Amazon. All that matters is whether bookseller Bezos (fan who saved The Expanse) likes it.

[lamaros]

I'm enjoying this, and plan to keep watching it. I started reading the first book too, as I'm all out of other stuff at the moment.

But the last couple of episodes have prompted me to think of the things that a lot of SF shows don't do that (good) SF books do, which is be prepared to be a different. Not just humans with magic, or different landmasses, but commit to a fundamentally different cosmology. I like SF for escapism, but it overwhelms the genre, especially in film and TV. It would be fun if there were more shows that ran with things like Arrival did.

On the show itself: This whole "who is the Dragon" thing seems to interest some viewers a lot more than I expected, but I find it pretty boring. The show feels quite rushed but also very slow at the same time. I'd prefer something that was a bit more dense and didn't bother to try and explain or draw as much stuff out, but that's probably just me. It doesn't have the polish to make Perrin following some carts around worth the screen time it gave it.

[Miguel]

My only beef with it is there's a ton of context in there that only makes sense if you've read the books, and someone who hasn't is left wondering WTF is going on and why the reference was in there.

Like: who is Logain, and why are the Aes Sedai hunting him?  Why are those women wearing red outfits, and why is Moiraine wearing a blue cloak? Even a 5 minute montage about the 7 ajah's and the white tower would have cleared up everyone's motivations.  Why are the wisps floating around channelers white for women but black for men?  What are these dream sequences about with a man with fire for eyes?  Moiraine said "There's 4 Ta'veren in that town" and never explained what that meant in context.  Even the background in the books for Shadar Logoth would have explained better about why Moiraine was so fearful about going there, and what the fog chasing them meant.

I find when watching with my wife that we have to keep pausing, I'll explain the relevant backstory, then she'll say, "Oh, I see, that makes sense now.", and then we'll resume.

[Threash]

I really don't think any of those things need explaining yet.

[Rendakor]

My only beef with it is there's a ton of context in there that only makes sense if you've read the books, and someone who hasn't is left wondering WTF is going on and why the reference was in there.

Like: who is Logain, and why are the Aes Sedai hunting him?  Why are those women wearing red outfits, and why is Moiraine wearing a blue cloak? Even a 5 minute montage about the 7 ajah's and the white tower would have cleared up everyone's motivations.  Why are the wisps floating around channelers white for women but black for men?  What are these dream sequences about with a man with fire for eyes?  Moiraine said "There's 4 Ta'veren in that town" and never explained what that meant in context.  Even the background in the books for Shadar Logoth would have explained better about why Moiraine was so fearful about going there, and what the fog chasing them meant.

I find when watching with my wife that we have to keep pausing, I'll explain the relevant backstory, then she'll say, "Oh, I see, that makes sense now.", and then we'll resume.

I thought they made it clear that Logain was a false Dragon, being driven mad by the tainted power. The dream sequences don't need to make sense, yet, I don't think. They do explain about Shadar Logoth, although I'm wondering now if you've seen all of the episodes that are available.

A bit about the Ajahs would help though, and that's part of my complaint about them focusing on Moiraine instead of the Two Rivers kid: she knows all about them, so they show just assumes we know all about them.

[Rasix]

I imagine there's going to be a sit down with Nynaeve with Morraine or more likely the other Ajah's pulling her aside to make their sales pitch in the next episode. Outside of her block, she's like Aes Sedai version of Lebron James in high school. 

[Salamok]

If they wanted to deviate from everything Jordan wrote they should have done this as a retelling of events, maybe bounce between Tom and Loial as the ones doing the retelling.  Also a 30 second snippet covering a different bit of lore prior to each episodes opening  credits might have been a good idea.  All said and done they have completely fucked everything and ruined any shot of anyone trying to get this IP done right  for at least the next 20 years.  Writers and director should be blacklisted.

[Rendakor]

There has never been a chance a 14 book series (where a bunch are shitty) was going to get "done right".

[Rasix]

As long as it’s not offensively bad, I’m on board. This level of quality is acceptable.

If it veers into GoT post books territory, I’ll still probably hate watch it.

[Salamok]

Production and acting quality are about as good as I could have hoped.  Doubling down on the braid pulling in the intro, what they did to perrin and making the dragon non gender specific, going all united colors of benetton on the small village when you have a whole world to represent races are the unforgivable sins so far.

[Khaldun]

I guess. No reason why the small village has to be pure white, though. It's not "the North" a la Tolkien--it's just some fucking village in a place that once upon a time fought the Dark Lord to a standstill etc., there's nothing vaguely Nordic or whatever about it. Why *not* make it black, brown, yellow and white?

[Rendakor]

I don't think the Two Rivers has to be pure white, but I think it should have mostly been of a single race. They keep talking about "the old blood runs deep" over and over, and how isolated they are, and so on. Rand can easily be a different race; Nynaeve too, since they're leaning more heavily on her being an orphan in the show. But Mat, Perrin, Egwene and the rest of the unimportant side characters in town should all have been the same race.

[Salamok]

In the books the two riversEmonds Field for sure gives off a xenophobic island fever vibe where you can't trust those strange folk from 2 towns over.  

Edit - I'm fine with non white as a choice but make it homogeneous.   Also they butchered Mats family life as well, for no apparent reason.

There has never been a chance a 14 book series (where a bunch are shitty) was going to get "done right".

I get what you are saying but when 1 page out of 6 deals with character development and plot while 5 out of 6 describe the surroundings it should be much easier to adapt to a movie.  Think of it as a 3k page story with 10k pages of instructions for directors,  set builders and costume designers.

[Khaldun]

Little towns can be a mix of people and still think that the people twenty miles away are a bunch of freaky foreigners.

[lamaros]

Production and acting quality are about as good as I could have hoped.  Doubling down on the braid pulling in the intro, what they did to perrin and making the dragon non gender specific, going all united colors of benetton on the small village when you have a whole world to represent races are the unforgivable sins so far.

I'm reading the first book for the first time right now. There is nothing in there that screams homogeneous skin type at all. The opposite in fact (a number of characters are pointed out explicitly as not being white, and most others aren't described in much depth). I love a nit pick more than the average person, but the casting so far seems almost slavish to the book I've read so far. You might need to check your assumptions with the actual book.

Little towns can be a mix of people and still think that the people twenty miles away are a bunch of freaky foreigners.

And this is also on point and matched to the book.

Edit - I'm fine with non white as a choice but make it homogeneous.   Also they butchered Mats family life as well, for no apparent reason.

Unless you're talking about some flashbacks later on EotW gives Mat almost no family life to butcher. They've put in somewhere where basically nothing was there. Not the same as butchering.

Also, I now get the "who is the Dragon" bit a little more. The start of EotW does give scope for this to play out for a bit, if you put aside the "protagonist, duh" assumptions we all carry when reading these sorts of things.

[Teleku]

For the record, I'm fine with the multi race thing because this series is actually post apocalyptical fantasy, so it makes sense.  Having said that, they probably should have stopped making references to 'the old blood' being strong as an explanation of power like the books do.  Because that very much implies race, and it just seems pretty weird thing to say in light of the cast.

I also just read the book recently, and there is a lot of implication that the two rivers is mostly racially homogenous.  Every character except Rand is described in some way as 'dark' or darker.  It's very vague, but they make a point of it.  This comes to a head later in the book when (spoiling for Lamaros since he's reading and I don't know where he is):

Seems fairly obvious they were meant to be mostly similar racially.  Though with those descriptions, actually more like some form of brown or at least Mediterranean, not pasty white.  But again, this is mostly academic.  If this show ends up totally terrible, not being racially accurate for the various nations will not be why. 

[Ashamanchill]

Lamaros, I know this sucks, but you are wrong. There is no way to properly rebutt what you are saying without heavy spoilers, which I am going to do anyways, but I assume you aren't going to read them because they are indeed spoilers, so you will have to just believe me. I know that isn't fair, but it also isn't fair to comment on the books doing it that way having only partially read the first one.

The skin colour thing is aback and forth issue for the series. I know this is a shitty American attitude, but Robert Jordan was a shitty American writer, writing in the shitty 1990s, and it becomes pretty obvious that if he doesn't mention skin colour, he means white. Otherwise he explicitly describes a person's skin colour where it 'differs'. The black skin in the sea folk, and the Royal blood of the Seanchan, . In Altara, specifically Ebou Dar, they are described as having very dark brown skin, with the architecture being very Indian inspired. In Arad Doman their skin is emphasized as being 'coppery' and their culture somewhat Arabic. At least two of the Borderlands nations are depicted as Japanese in all but saying their skin colour.

Then there is the Official WoT Compendium. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_of_Robert_Jordan%27s_The_Wheel_of_Time It has some of the worst fantasy art ever created, but it was sanctioned by Robert Jordan. All of the Two Rivers people are depicted as White, as is everyone from Andor, their parent nation. To put it bluntly, if there was 6 men in a bar, 3 white, 1 Asian, 1 Black, and 1 Indian, it was Robert Jordan's writing style to not mention the skin colour of the first three, while brining it up for the following three.

Now, does race matter in the series. No, not really, except for . And even that, not so much. Race was never a major theme or part of the author's message. I really don't think he would be rolling in his grave over it. Culture, however, plays a huge part in his world, and it is common for say, a Andoran and a Cairheinien to not want to work together, but it is never because of skin colour. As Teleku says, it doesn't make sense anyways. The series establishes very quickly that this world is our world of a distant future, having passed through a utopian age. then at the Breaking, I guess someone blew a horn and said "All races to their respective corners of the world! Fair skinned people, to the desert!"

Does it matter in the show. Nah, not really, except for a few small things. 1. As I mentioned earlier, The Two Rivers folk are supposed to start out provincial and become more worldly. When they get to their first city, it blows their mind that all sorts of people are milling about together. So it takes the effect away when Nynaeve runs into a Tar Valon force, and they are just as diverse as her little shit hole village, when Tar Valon is supposed to be THE cosmopolitan place in that world, drawing people, and especially women, from all over to work together. 2.  3. It makes everywhere look the same. I couldnt tell the difference between the Edmonds Field and the town from Ep 3, and the Tar Valon army just looks like better dressed Two Rivers folk.

Unless you're talking about some flashbacks later on EotW gives Mat almost no family life to butcher. They've put in somewhere where basically nothing was there. Not the same as butchering.

Yes they are butchering Matt's family life. Again, you will just have to trust us.

[lamaros]

Curious how Tele posts a quote about them not having fair skin, and you go all in on them being white because some sanctioned art has them as such.

I get they might not be like they are in the show, maybe I was too strident there and obviously later books can make it a thing, but the way the first half of EotW is written, at least, the distinctions are cultural and etc rather than skin colour.

They make a fair bit about Rand's hair, but even more about his height.  It's also fairly open to interpretation, but Egwene and Nynaeve are described as having the "same dark colouring". Maybe this is just meant to mean hair and eyes... I guess.

[Ashamanchill]

Actually his qoute doesnt mention their skin, but their hair, and eyes. Egwene and Matt all have have brown hair, with only Nynaeve being actually dark.

[lamaros]

Actually his qoute doesnt mention their skin, but their hair.

Umm read the last line.

Also, when they get to their first city there's an extended bit where Rand just compares them to people he knows at home. Maybe later cities will make something else of it, but the first small city it's literally "oh they're just like us here, but gee it's busy".

[Ashamanchill]

That would be because Rand's skin, , is often mentioned as being exceptionally fair.

[lamaros]

I don't doubt the book was written on basic "these people are like X, these like y". I'm just saying there's not a huge amount that makes much explicit significance of skin colour such that it's an issue for the TV series. And if they are meant to be one skin colour, it should be like southern Italian, not white white.

[Ashamanchill]

As I also mentioned up thread, in the core nations of Randland Robert Jordan very frequently tied people's appearances to the culture he was trying to evoke. Andor is very English, Cairhein French, Ghealdan German, Tear and Illian are depicted as much more Mediterranean, as they are coastal. The Two Rivers closest cultural relatives is Andor, but they are have and do break away from it in their own ways, with a heavy emphasis on their tobacco farming (thankfully without the slaves).

[Teleku]

Maybe they're all Black Irish.   

[Cyrrex]

I always pictured them as a bunch of Scots/English with dark hair, and Rand being a bit of a blond haired freak.

I also thought a certain someone from the books entering into a relationship with an important character who (in my mind) was repeatedly being described as being unbelievably black skinned (and also possibly a 10 year-old and also bald?), as if a black person in this land was unheard of. 

[Teleku]

It's not that they don't exist, it's just that they all come from certain specific nations in the books.

Edit:  But yeah, the cultural implication for two rivers and Andor in general is the UK, so whatever description of race the books put, that was that mental image I always got.

[Ashamanchill]

That certain someone is also from not from "Randland", as it has been dubbed.

[Cyrrex]

My point being mainly that it seems to support the idea that localized cultures were pretty homogeneous.  Changing those things in casting, regardless of the reason, changes the story.  Which maybe is fine, the story has some problems.

[Khaldun]

In the part of West Africa that is now almost entirely inside the borders of Nigeria with a bit of western Cameroon, essentially the lower Niger River and its delta into the Atlantic Ocean, prior to 1500 or so, there were maybe 20 distinct societies, all of them "Black" by contemporary global reckoning, that had really distinct cultures/languages and were in that sense fairly 'homogenous'. Some of them were very small-scale, living within a very limited area (many of them what we now refer to as "Cross Rivers" peoples, for the river that marks the boundary between Nigeria and Cameroon). Some were spread out over a wider area but had a very distinct way of living and thinking, most notably the Igbo people, who were very active merchants trading across the whole region and lived in large towns but who were also very democratic in their basic outlook (they didn't have chiefs or heads of state as such). And then there was a big centralized imperial state with substantial cities and a large military, whose people were mostly Yoruba, but whose cities were somewhat cosmopolitan and had people from neighboring Hausa, Igbo, Cross Rivers and Aja communities.

The point being is that you can have localized cultures that are pretty homogenous without using race as the signifier of that. In fact, that's the way it's been for most of human history. It's fine to follow the fantasy trope of "these people over here, they live this way and wear these kinds of outfits and have these customs; the people over there on the map are different and do this and that" and yet not use modern racial markers to get that across. I grant that it's important to The Wheel of Time overall to have various peoples and communities have some distinctiveness (and for the starting characters to feel constantly amazed at how diverse and big the world really is) but I don't think you lose anything if you go with a racially diverse casting strategy.
 

[Ashamanchill]

No we don't. Especially since the casting choices are fairly well done, if a tad plain looking for my taste. Although I still think there are two of the actors who can't act for shit. We're just saying that's not how it was in the 1990s published book, good intentions or not. And believe me, that is far from the most problematic thing in it.

[Salamok]

I went in to this with my only hope being "please be better than Shannara", I wasnt expecting GoT.  Mostly it is better than expected BUT the writing/direction choices really have the stank of some half talent a-hole changing shit just so they could point at the change and say I did that.  If Jordan were alive and had a modicum of control I would bet money there is no way he would let them do to Perrin and Matt what they did.  The racial make up is mildly jarring and not consistent with my view of the books but it doesn't completely ruin the story on its own.

Including women as potential dragon reborns is flat out fucking stupid and completely at odds with a major plot line of the story.

[Ashamanchill]

Including women as potential dragon reborns is flat out fucking stupid and completely at odds with a major plot line of the story.

Making a women the actual Dragon reborn would indeed require a serious divergence from almost every major theme of the book (in short, and non spoiler, it would require that the current Aes Sedai be men), but having it be a potential one isn't that bad. Especially considering that the series is only telling us this through the imperfect knowledge of Moraine Sedai. It's a perfectly fine plot device for fresh fans of this series who also haven't seen the way any series ever frames its main character.

[Salamok]

It's a perfectly fine plot device for fresh fans of this series who also haven't seen the way any series ever frames its main character.

The Aes Sedai know for a fact the male half of the source is tainted, they have an entire Ajah dedicated to hunting men because of that taint.  Multiple times in the books it is brought up by different Aes Sedai in a wondering way "What are we going to do if the Red Ajah gentles the real Dragon Reborn".  There is no way Moraine is not aware of all of this since she has made the Dragon Reborn the primary focus of her life's work.