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Author Topic: Avengers: Endgame - Spoilers Away! Read at your own risk.  (Read 3903 times)
Teleku
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Reply #105 on: May 01, 2019, 11:05:15 AM

UNHIDDEN SPOILERS START ON THIS PAGE!!!!


So ok, interesting.
Ok, so they basically said it was the scenario I said was the only way that whole thing would work based on the rules they set.  I can sleep now.   awesome, for real
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 09:17:20 PM by Teleku »

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
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NowhereMan
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Reply #106 on: May 01, 2019, 11:34:42 AM


I am 95% sure Zack Snyder's End Game would have featured Captain America sacrificing 90% of earth's heroes to defeat Thanos and at least half the movie would have been devoted to exploring time travel butterfly effect problems. This movie was fun, that one would have sucked balls.

"Look at my car. Do you think that was bought with the earnest love of geeks?" - HaemishM
Velorath
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Reply #107 on: May 01, 2019, 11:48:44 AM

Mandella
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Reply #108 on: May 01, 2019, 08:41:27 PM

Gonna throw out a theory about the end of the movie that makes it make more sense in my head:


I like that. I may make that my head-canon until handled differently by future shows.

But by an means awesome movie, and what a great send off for the "series!" Just the right amount of meta fan service, pathos, humor, you name it. I didn't feel there was a slow spot in the entire three hours (something I cannot say for Captain Marvel which I just got around to seeing last week).

Just all around great. The Russo brothers are superhero action movie gods.

/nerdgasm
Teleku
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Reply #109 on: May 01, 2019, 09:21:15 PM

Ok, I pinged Schild and he gave the green light to start chatting without spoilers.  Maybe a mod can edit the main title, I edited my post at the top of this page.  The first few pages should give anybody who just wants to see our reaction to it enough info.



They need to make a a short just like the end of Deadpool 2 where he runs around 'fixing' the timeline.  Except with Captain America in his alternate timeline, jumping out of nowhere and stopping all the major bad guys and plots before they can happen over the course of 60 years.   awesome, for real

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
-Stephen Colbert
Raguel
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Reply #110 on: May 02, 2019, 03:17:10 AM

Story choices I didn't like:

1. Thanos the main bad guy: I felt like his story ended in IW; sure caught off his head, no big deal. Wish there was something or someone else for the rest of the movie but oh well.

2. Steve hooking up with Peggy: not a fan, wish it was someone else, or at least not reveal who it was.


kinda late so I can't remember the others. so I'll add more after I get some sleep.
Khaldun
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Reply #111 on: May 02, 2019, 10:13:38 AM

It would actually have been pretty interesting not to have the last act be against Thanos, but as far as giant CGI-fest mega-battles go, that one was pretty fair. I liked the sequencing of it from the more intimate battle of the Big Three against Thanos alone, getting down to Cap with Mjolnir, getting down to Cap struggling to get to his feet, then moving to the huge-scale battle. I think it's pretty much the LAST time one of their films should end like that, though--that was the ne plus ultra version, now they need something else.
Teleku
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Reply #112 on: May 02, 2019, 10:23:54 AM

Well, that was the glory of the whole thing.  They literally took 10 years worth of movies in a shared universe (of which they've been releasing multiple movies a year that take place in it), and crammed every single character played by every single original actor they could get away with into that last battle.  It was over the top and, from a production standpoint, the cost and logistics had to be insane.  We'll probably never get another moment/scene like that for decades.  Or at least something so mainstream and costly (I'm sure china could shit out 50 $5 budget superhero movies then bring them all in or something).  Even for my criticisms of the movie (again, I liked it overall), can't ignore the cultural relevance of the moment.  Nothing like it has ever been done, and can't imagine when we'll get it again.

Funny, its pretty amazing this opened the same weekend that Game of Thrones had its big battle to decide the fate of the plot.  Still a few more episodes to go obviously, but the top two mass-character filled cultural phenomenons of the last decade are both closing out at the same time.  I know Marvel is going to keep going, but I have a feeling they are going to have to back away from the grand shared vision that made up the last decade of films, and go for more localized stories (which isn't a bad thing).  It's the end of their grand story, just as this is the end of Game of Thrones.

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
-Stephen Colbert
jgsugden
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Reply #113 on: May 02, 2019, 06:05:57 PM

I bet that will get another grand story being told over the next 10 to 15 years, but that grand story will be something that has a lot of groundwork laid slowly and quietly in the background of these films. They probably already started with Captain Marvel. Up next camo the mutants and Fantastic 4 are going to have to be incorporated into this universe. I'll be cutting et is whether they can cv one up with something better than 2 universes colliding.

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Khaldun
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Reply #114 on: May 02, 2019, 09:15:17 PM

Fantastic Four I can easily see them launching off of this start point.

X-Men/mutants are way harder, because if they're in the present of these characters, they have to be at least teenagers, which means they were born sometime after Captain Marvel and have been heretofore secret. The Eternals might be a way to introduce them.
lamaros
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Reply #115 on: May 03, 2019, 06:36:28 PM

You nerds really should stop trying to work out the time travel nonsense. They literally told you it was all bullshit and just go with it.

Haha exactly. It's the same as with "power levels" some of you all get so hung up on. It's whatever it needs to be to make the movie work. It's a superhero movie.

I thought the movie was about as good as it could have been given the situation.

Egotistical fan-service, sure, but funny, over the top and with some good scenes.

I enjoyed it a lot.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 06:45:35 PM by lamaros »

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HaemishM
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Reply #116 on: May 03, 2019, 11:38:09 PM

The power level discussions always amuse me, because the first rule of superhero stories is 1) the hero always wins eventually, though he may lose something along the way or have someone close to him die in order to make it happen, and 2) if it looks/sounds/is drawn cool, fuck it, go with it.

Khaldun
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Reply #117 on: May 04, 2019, 08:45:58 AM

Mostly I agree.

I get constantly annoyed when new writers are assigned to Dr. Strange, because almost all of them decide that the only way to handle the character is to depower him and then build him back up with some new bullshit idea about magic--you have to sacrifice to use magic, magic is drawn from the natural world rather than spells, magic is about devices and enchantments, blah blah. The idea is somehow that Strange being able to do anything makes him impossible to write, because his powers fluctuate so much. This is utter rubbish, and an excuse of lesser writers. Strange's best stories in his history have not needed to put these kinds of constraints on him. Simply this:

a) he's not omniscient, and his powers rely on knowledge. Hit him with something he hasn't seen before.
b) he's got limited powers over the material world. (that's there from the beginning). Hit him with something that is material or brutish, esp. bad guys with complicated powersets like the Absorbing Man
c) some of his bad guys are in his league--they control their own dimensions, they can come at him from places he can't even see; Strange is someone who *defends* his reality, and being on defense is always a vulnerable position
d) he's a middle-aged guy who is still struggling with arrogance and confidence--hit him in his personality
e) he can only be in so many places; his enemies are sometimes literally legion and can come from all over
f) he's secretive by nature and a lot of his possible allies are wary of him
g) there's an infinite number of macguffins you can throw into his stories--wands of watoomb, darkholds, you name it--to power up an ordinary bad guy

The solution to writing the character is not to give him a neat set of constrained powers fit for a role-playing game or something like that.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #118 on: May 06, 2019, 08:59:21 AM

Multiverse confirmed. The new Spiderman Far From Home trailer literally uses the word and it looks like it's going to be a plot point of the movie.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Threash
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Reply #119 on: May 06, 2019, 11:37:30 AM

Or its all bullshit from Mysterio.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #120 on: May 07, 2019, 10:44:41 PM

Or its all bullshit from Mysterio.

I thought that at first too but it's Fury that says the snap opened rifts in our dimension. Fury isn't the type to just believe some random dude about that.

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jgsugden
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Reply #121 on: May 08, 2019, 08:10:45 AM

Or its all bullshit from Mysterio.

I thought that at first too but it's Fury that says the snap opened rifts in our dimension. Fury isn't the type to just believe some random dude about that.
Mysterio's gimmick is to make people believe.  He could be making Fury believe, or making people believe he is Fury, etc...

When the villain is deceptive, there are a lot of ways to go.

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Raguel
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Reply #122 on: May 08, 2019, 07:27:34 PM

Saw this again yesterday. Like IW I liked it more on the second viewing. I forgot the third choice that I disliked though: Steve giving the shield (and thus the name CA?) to someone else. Not a fan, but I think they handled that scene very well. I thought Bucky's behavior was a bit odd, but on the second viewing it's pretty obvious Bucky was in on what Steve was planning on doing. At one point Bucky says "I'm going to miss you" and Steve replies "it's going to be ok". I guess in the MCU the serum doesn't provide any slow aging process so Steve surviving to 2023 was an iffy proposition.
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Reply #123 on: May 10, 2019, 12:51:23 AM

another thing someone pointed out regarding the stones:  Captain America must have had one hell of an adventure "returning" the stones to where they belong, considering that when they sent him back in time to return them, he literally only had the 5 "gems" in a Briefcase.   Important part being that he had the GEMS, not the original "forms" of the stones.

I mean, he isn't going to have much problem returning the Time Stone, he can just hand that back to TAO.  Not sure about the Soul stone.  Does he just hand it over to the specter of the red Skull? (that could be a very interesting conversation).  And the Power Stone shouldn't be too hard, provided they kept the shield orb thingie and sent it along in the briefcase.  

But what about some of the other stones?

How does he get the Mind Stone Back into Loki's scepter when the scepter itself is completely gone from that timeline? Pretty sure it wouldn't fit in that briefcase they sent him off with, even if it survived whatever process was required to extract the stone from it when they brought it back to their timeline.

But what the hell does he do with the Space stone? Someone is going to notice if the Tesseract suddenly turns into a completely different shaped gemstone.

Does he just grind up the reality stone, sneak into Asgard and re-inject it into Jane?
Maybe. He had Mjolnir with him. Despite it being "against the rules" he presumably could've enlisted the help of Thor / Asgard to put things back in their proper forms and place before returning Mjolnir to the appropriate timeline.
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Reply #124 on: May 10, 2019, 01:41:27 AM

Pretty sure TAO, especially with the Time Stone back could either revert the other stones to the previous forms or otherwise get them into reasonable facsimiles of their containers.
Khaldun
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Reply #125 on: May 10, 2019, 07:30:20 AM

I'm sort of assuming that the stone 'merges' with its current form when it's brought back; I would think you'd bring it back to the moment it left (which I suppose means if they really wanted to be clever, they could have planted the easter egg of a disguised steve rogers being just barely in frame in the distance in the scenes where the stones are stolen. A bit difficult in the case of the Ancient One/Hulk scene, though.)

The Soul Stone does seem to me to be the difficult one--it isn't anywhere until it is, otherwise I assume Thanos would just have ripped it from whatever vault or pocket dimension etc. that it was in once he got to Vormir. So I'm not sure what Cap does to return it. Though this also raises the interesting question: what made the Skull become the 'herald' of the Soul Stone? The Stone itself? Some other unnamed force?
SurfD
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Reply #126 on: May 11, 2019, 03:32:58 AM

Another rather interesting angle that I hope to see them play up at least a little in some of the upcoming phase 4 movies:   The rest of the Universe

I mean, think about it.  We know that Rocket was able to determine with minimal effort that Earth was the epicenter of a massive energy surge of unprecedented scale when Thanos did the first Snap, and similarly track Thanos down to the Garden due to the Snap he used to destroy the Stones.  Which means that if Rocket can do it, pretty much every sentient race in all of creation within sensor range is going to know that Earth was at the epicenter of TWO fucking massive energy surges that coincided with some pretty epic shit going down.   I can forsee that focusing a shitload of attention in Earth's direction as the rest of the Universe tries to figure out what the fuck happened as well as if they need to be concerned about it happening a third time.

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Khaldun
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Reply #127 on: May 11, 2019, 06:39:22 AM

Yeah.

This is always one of the inconsistent things in comic-book universes--Skrulls and Kree and Psions and New Gods and so on treating Earth like a primitive backwater planet of no account until they suddenly recognize that Earth is the absolute center of the universe when it comes to cosmically important events and super-powerful beings and then they're scared; but periodically they revert to the "primitive backwater planet" because it's sort of the default setting of pulp culture of all kinds.

Might make for an interesting riff on Galactus if and when they do him--that his finding Earth isn't an accident but something that various aliens who are scared by Earth's potential put him up to.

On the flip side of this, the Earth of the MCU is now utterly aware that it is in a universe teeming with alien life, so it isn't just the Snapture that they're going to have to recover from or adapt to. This might be the hook that starts off the Fantastic Four: Reed Richards is desperate to test an experimental superliminal vessel because the governments of Earth feel a major need to get "out there" and to defend the planet from future alien invasions.
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Reply #128 on: May 11, 2019, 08:25:15 AM

Which means that if Rocket can do it, pretty much every sentient race in all of creation within sensor range is going to know that Earth was at the epicenter of TWO fucking massive energy surges that coincided with some pretty epic shit going down. 

Three. One from IW and two from Endgame.

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HaemishM
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Reply #129 on: May 11, 2019, 11:56:45 AM

For the last 5-10 years in the comics, that's been a recurring theme. A bunch of alien races have essentially gotten together and targeted the Earth because all sorts of bad shit seems to keep coming from there. The Phoenix Force keeps coming back there, they keep "breaking time," Ultron has left Earth and infected the planet, etc. Peter Quill's comic father (ruler of a multi-planet galactic empire) tries to lead a coalition to destroy it, and at one point, the races even quarantine the Earth. Races like Skrull, Badoon, Chitauri, Sh'iar, Kree, all recognize that the Earth is some bad mojo.

And yes, I'm guessing long-term, the idea is to bring Galactus and the Fantastic Four into the MCU.

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Reply #130 on: May 11, 2019, 03:15:43 PM

The Soul Stone does seem to me to be the difficult one--it isn't anywhere until it is, otherwise I assume Thanos would just have ripped it from whatever vault or pocket dimension etc. that it was in once he got to Vormir. So I'm not sure what Cap does to return it. Though this also raises the interesting question: what made the Skull become the 'herald' of the Soul Stone? The Stone itself? Some other unnamed force?
According to the writers in a podcast interview you just literally give it back though you won't get a soul back in return. However the writers and the directors don't necessarily agree on how all this stuff works so I wouldn't necessarily consider that canon. For example the writers and director(s) disagree on who the father of Peggy Carter's children is in the main timeline/universe. The writers say it's a possibility it's Steve Rogers while according to the Russos those children are in an alternate timeline.

As for how the Red Skull became the keeper of the Soul Stone the details are still a mystery but according the Marvel Studios Visual Dictionary the Red Skull discovered a copy of the Book of Yggdrasil and learns of the Infinity Stones and presumably how they work (or as much as the Asgardians knew at that time) from there. I don't have a copy of that dictionary so I don't know if it's explained in there but presumably the Stones become an obsession to him like the One Ring and its wielders and his mystical journey after being "banished" by the Tesseract/Space Stone to find his stones led him to Vormir.
jgsugden
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Reply #131 on: May 14, 2019, 04:55:47 PM

Some interesting tidbits on the evolution of the Endgame - there was no definitive outline for IW and ENdgame when the Russo brothers took over.  They had a lot of freedom.  It was known that Thanos would snap at the end of IW, but they had no idea how to have the Avengers turn loss into victory in Endgame at the time.  They had 60 pages of alternative ideas, including Nova (Richard Ryder) becoming a Herald of some sort, House of M, etc... to resolve the story after the finished Civil War.  They eliminated Time Travel as an option because they thought it too convenient, but once they decided to kill Thanos early in the film and eliminate the stones, it was the best way to give them a path forward and it came back on the table.

https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/avengers-endgame-writers-talk-nova-thanos-time-travel

To me, that just means they did an amazingly gret job of mining the entire Marvel series to pick up threads to weave int their resolution. 

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Ironwood
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Reply #132 on: May 15, 2019, 08:32:40 AM

 swamp poop

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Cyrrex
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Reply #133 on: May 15, 2019, 10:42:12 AM

I watched Ant Man and the Wasp yesterday for the first time, and a thought ocurred to me.  It is not that IW and Endgame where so amazingly executed.  It is that the whole fucking series, minus a few hiccups, has been outstanding.  I am talking about all of the Marvel films.  Sure, fatigue is a thing, but these have been absolutely top quality productions.  Even stupid shit like IM3.

The visuals are unbelievable as well.  Notably, the Guardian movies are some of the prettiest things ever put to film.  And the CGI is incredible.  They even manage the young versions of people like Fishburne, Pfeiffer and Douglas were almost perfect, and I am not fooled easily by that stuff.

So.  Endgame was great because of the grand, epic scale and because of the emotional weight of it all.  But I do not think it was necessarily superior in general to the rest of the Marvel stuff.

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HaemishM
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Reply #134 on: May 15, 2019, 11:12:02 AM

Both Endgame and IW are amazing because of the difficulty involved in doing all the things they did in a coherent (mostly) narrative with as many actors and characters as they did. It should get a lot of credit just on degree of difficulty. Taken as a separate narrative, it might lose a bit of its cred, but it can't really be disentangled from the entirety of the MCU movies. Everything that the LotR trilogy was in terms of execution and degree of difficulty, the Marvel people took as a baseline and then ramped it all up exponentially.

Cyrrex
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Reply #135 on: May 15, 2019, 11:14:09 AM

Yeah, that works for me.  My point is simply that it has basically ALL been good.  And Endgame wrapped it up in a very satisfactory fashion, which is increasingly rare.  See also: GoT

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NowhereMan
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Reply #136 on: May 15, 2019, 11:22:48 AM

Marvel definitely need to consider hiring the writing staff from Endgame and IW to handle their cross over events. This was infinitely better handled than I think any of the cross overs that they've done.

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lamaros
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Reply #137 on: May 16, 2019, 07:30:28 PM

I watched Ant Man and the Wasp yesterday for the first time, and a thought ocurred to me.  It is not that IW and Endgame where so amazingly executed.  It is that the whole fucking series, minus a few hiccups, has been outstanding.  I am talking about all of the Marvel films.  Sure, fatigue is a thing, but these have been absolutely top quality productions.  Even stupid shit like IM3.

The visuals are unbelievable as well.  Notably, the Guardian movies are some of the prettiest things ever put to film.  And the CGI is incredible.  They even manage the young versions of people like Fishburne, Pfeiffer and Douglas were almost perfect, and I am not fooled easily by that stuff.

So.  Endgame was great because of the grand, epic scale and because of the emotional weight of it all.  But I do not think it was necessarily superior in general to the rest of the Marvel stuff.


I liked IW a lot and Endgame a fair bit. I also like GotG (+2) and Ragnarock and IM1.

I cbf with most of the other movies and haven't even watched a few of them. I disagree they've all been good. I don't think the MCU part of IW and Endgame being good as you make out. I think they're just decent movies with easter eggs for the nerds.

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Khaldun
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Reply #138 on: May 16, 2019, 08:15:15 PM

I think the level of general competence is very, very high, though. It's not just Feige--the casting, the editing, the professionalism of the whole operation. But Feige is a huge part of it--they started with a guy who was both a competent producer and who really got the source material. Nobody else has come to this body of intellectual property with those two attributes.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #139 on: May 16, 2019, 08:28:10 PM

My two biggest issues with the Marvel movies are the colors and the music. They usually look somewhat boring color scheme wise. They're not DCU "everything is more or less gray" but they're...flat. Except the Guardians movies. Those look like proper comic book movies. Also, most of them have very generic and boring music with the exception of Guardians and the Avengers films.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
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