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Author Topic: Captain Marvel  (Read 4057 times)
TheWalrus
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Reply #105 on: March 10, 2019, 12:02:52 PM

"I'm searching for a reason why I can't like this movie, and this sounds plausible."

Paelos: Somebody find that post where I declared Seattle dead, because those fuckers are NFL cockroaches in the NFC.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #106 on: March 10, 2019, 09:16:30 PM


Was also annoying how Mary Sue her character becomes.

You must have really disliked Captain America and Thor. And Black Panther and Spiderman. And Dr Strange. OK basically all of them except maybe Iron Man.



Yeah, Iron Man starts as a Gary Stu. He is fully capable of building the Mark 1 from the start of the movie and only gets more powerful from there.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
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Reply #107 on: March 10, 2019, 09:32:52 PM

woops, didn't see the next page.

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Ceryse
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Reply #108 on: March 10, 2019, 10:21:33 PM

Iron Man is one of my least favourite MCU characters for that reason, yes. A lot of the MCU characters suffer from the Gary/Mary Sue issue. I felt, however, that Captain Marvel "earned" it less than many of them (but no, not all). Overall, though, I really found her character to be un-likeable from the start and that stance never changed. I liked most of the secondary characters more than her. Some of that I think is because of Larson. A good deal of it, however, I think lies more on scripting and directing. Hardly the only issue I had with the movie, either. The major plot device (the FTL engine) being a gaping plot hole of stupidity and irrelevance throughout the movie being another.

Overall.. I felt it was 'meh'. Not a bad movie. Just.. didn't do anything for me. One of the weaker MCU offerings overall, imo. Right up there with several of the Iron Man and Thor films. Part of my issue with Captain Marvel is I was disappointed in it; I had hoped for better. I didn't have any issue with Brie Larson, the character (although, let's be honest -- Carol Danvers' most important contribution to the Marvel continuity is to lose her powers to Rogue) or making a Captain Marvel movie.

Just wasn't for me. Sucks for me, good for those that enjoyed it. I think the massive support for the film, along with the idiotic hate/trolling, is fairly moronic. Its overly politicised from the media and trolls regardless of the motive. It will be interesting to see how much it drops from week to week, and despite not being a fan of the movie, I'm hoping it actually continues to do well if only to help continue the trend of more female-led action movies and that it'll help pave the way for some that are, well, better movies.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #109 on: March 11, 2019, 12:42:04 AM

The major plot device (the FTL engine) being a gaping plot hole of stupidity and irrelevance throughout the movie being another.



I will admit that the engine bugged me. They're clearly using FTL otherwise getting from the capital world of the Kree to earth would take centuries if not more. I sort of hand waved it as "this one lets them go even faster and to different galaxies." In reality, I think the writers just didn't understand the science or figured most of the audience would be too dumb to call them on it.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
NowhereMan
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Reply #110 on: March 11, 2019, 03:00:15 AM

Being super generous to them, it seemed a bit like the system they were using involved fixed jump points like some sort of artificial worm hole technology. The planets the Kree visited were clearly all known to them so I assume that that system is one that allows travel within the Kree space but isn't usable if you want to go somewhere the Kree can't easily find you.

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Reply #111 on: March 11, 2019, 03:17:37 AM

The major plot device (the FTL engine) being a gaping plot hole of stupidity and irrelevance throughout the movie being another.



I will admit that the engine bugged me. They're clearly using FTL otherwise getting from the capital world of the Kree to earth would take centuries if not more. I sort of hand waved it as "this one lets them go even faster and to different galaxies." In reality, I think the writers just didn't understand the science or figured most of the audience would be too dumb to call them on it.

Canonically, ships in the Marvel universe can jump between fixed jump points. If you jump too many times in a short period of time it fucks you up. As the main interstellar power, most of the jump points are controlled by the Kree. The 'lightspeed drive' is probably a thing that lets you jump without going through the Kree jump points - which would offer an escape route for the Skrulls.

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NowhereMan
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Reply #112 on: March 11, 2019, 05:17:19 AM

I'll also echo Malakii's comments on Brie's acting. Without spoiling (because these are things from literally the first 5 minutes of the movie) the Kree culture is strict and the Supreme Intelligence encourages selflessness and sacrifice. It's clearly presented that Kree soldiers are meant to be automota that act for the good of the Kree Empire. Brie's character being pretty poe faced is what the fucking character is meant to be doing .

It's far from my favourite Marvel movie but it's definitely superior to Thor 1+2 for me or IM3. Not top tier but anyone who thinks this is the worst Marvel movie so far is not judging it on anything in the movie itself. My suspicion is that, like BP, we'll see the MRA outrage machine die down once the excitement is over and in a year everyone will have mysteriously forgotten how awful this was and be perfectly happy to have it be a solid origin story for the new Avenger in Marvel Wave 2.0. Unless they make her the main fixture of the new Avengers line up in which case the outrage will continue.

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MediumHigh
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Reply #113 on: March 11, 2019, 07:58:20 AM

So my general fuel to the Captain Marvel is a movie fire....

You know in the 90s there was a rush to create a bunch of movies about a guy with no personality trait beyond ex-military going into warehouses and shooting up the bad guys for reasons ranging from "corporations are evil" to "corporations and the government are evil". If it wasn't for superhero movies, and the matrix we would probably get nothing but these types of movies of increasingly lazy production.

I wanted to double feature this with US but my wife thinks that US may be too scary for her so we watched this on Sunday because we're nerds who watch nerd shit because superpowers are the only things that is necessary to shill out the cash we wouldn't otherwise spend on another ex-military guy doing ex-military things warehouses movies.

Wife rates -D, I give it a C. This movie works fine in isolation, in some ways I suspect it was partially made in isolation. Parts work. Parts work really well. But this is probably the lowest effort marvel movie since before we stopped worrying about marvel movies over saturating the market with sequels of iron man and thor. Remember Thor 2, how no one remembers that movie exist? Or Iron Man 2, a movie that was supposed to be some retelling of the genie in the bottle storyline but instead became a movie only fit for small children. This kinda reminds me of that. The kids in the theater had a blast. The adults either chuckled or audibly groaned.

I give it a C because the supporting cast was top notch and everyone even characters we met for 5 minutes gives us something. They'd almost be the emotional core of the movie except for one nagging reason why my wife gives it an -D. Carl Danverse is a nothing character. Not sure why that is. Not sure how that happened. But for a movie in her namesake it doesn't do a good job of making me give a shit beyond how strong she is. Which is all you really come away with. None of her dialogue really works and she oscillated almost randomly between being quirky or serious. My only explanation now that I had an entire night to think about it is that maybe they were playing off her military background??? But that doesn't make sense or the writers just never met anyone in the armed forces. Definitely wasn't because she was a Kree soldier.The movie took the time to note how she constantly jokey and quirky she was around them.

I wouldn't call her a mary sue. Its not that she doesn't explicitly has flaws. It's just that the movie doesn't really challenge her at all. This is also helped by people who should be trying to kill her not trying to kill her. Which makes sense kinda and barely BUT it doesn't help the movie. Because a movie needs tension. Or a moment when our main character feels some sense of urgency. This is again left at the feet of the side characters (whose lives are very much in danger), but less so for the person you should really care about *cough*cptmarvel*cough*. I think the one common thing all good to great marvel movies have is that moment when their super powers don't feel all that super or all that special . Captain Marvel never has that moment so..... yeah.

DC put a lot of effort into making sure Wonder Woman didn't suck. Marvel...didn't. And DC may have tried that hard because either A. the producer actually liked the character this time or B. The studio was going to sacrifice the cast and crews first born daughters to lord satan... no one at Marvel was told "this has to work". And thats sad, because Marvel trademark is taking these B - C rated properties that no one outside of comics or really inside of comics because no one cared about the avengers in 2003... and putting love and craftsmanship into them. Like what studio would give a flying shit about antman. Marvel does. Guardians of the Galaxy. Marvel working overtime to make that work too. Ok but seriously who gives a shit about Doctor Strange? Marvel does. And sure Captain Marvel has objectively good movie ingredients. But I dare to ask...so what? Nothing objectively bad... ok 50% of the action scenes were very objectively bad... but nothing besides that objectively bad doesn't make a good movie. Doesn't make a bad one either so... meh. I could have saved 22 dollars.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 08:03:16 AM by MediumHigh »

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Reply #114 on: March 11, 2019, 08:53:52 AM

So my general fuel to the Captain Marvel is a movie fire....

You know in the 90s there was a rush to create a bunch of movies about a guy with no personality trait beyond ex-military going into warehouses and shooting up the bad guys for reasons ranging from "corporations are evil" to "corporations and the government are evil". If it wasn't for superhero movies, and the matrix we would probably get nothing but these types of movies of increasingly lazy production.

I wanted to double feature this with US but my wife thinks that US may be too scary for her so we watched this on Sunday because we're nerds who watch nerd shit because superpowers are the only things that is necessary to shill out the cash we wouldn't otherwise spend on another ex-military guy doing ex-military things warehouses movies.

Wife rates -D, I give it a C. This movie works fine in isolation, in some ways I suspect it was partially made in isolation. Parts work. Parts work really well. But this is probably the lowest effort marvel movie since before we stopped worrying about marvel movies over saturating the market with sequels of iron man and thor. Remember Thor 2, how no one remembers that movie exist? Or Iron Man 2, a movie that was supposed to be some retelling of the genie in the bottle storyline but instead became a movie only fit for small children. This kinda reminds me of that. The kids in the theater had a blast. The adults either chuckled or audibly groaned.

I give it a C because the supporting cast was top notch and everyone even characters we met for 5 minutes gives us something. They'd almost be the emotional core of the movie except for one nagging reason why my wife gives it an -D. Carl Danverse is a nothing character. Not sure why that is. Not sure how that happened. But for a movie in her namesake it doesn't do a good job of making me give a shit beyond how strong she is. Which is all you really come away with. None of her dialogue really works and she oscillated almost randomly between being quirky or serious. My only explanation now that I had an entire night to think about it is that maybe they were playing off her military background??? But that doesn't make sense or the writers just never met anyone in the armed forces. Definitely wasn't because she was a Kree soldier.The movie took the time to note how she constantly jokey and quirky she was around them.

I wouldn't call her a mary sue. Its not that she doesn't explicitly has flaws. It's just that the movie doesn't really challenge her at all. This is also helped by people who should be trying to kill her not trying to kill her. Which makes sense kinda and barely BUT it doesn't help the movie. Because a movie needs tension. Or a moment when our main character feels some sense of urgency. This is again left at the feet of the side characters (whose lives are very much in danger), but less so for the person you should really care about *cough*cptmarvel*cough*. I think the one common thing all good to great marvel movies have is that moment when their super powers don't feel all that super or all that special . Captain Marvel never has that moment so..... yeah.

DC put a lot of effort into making sure Wonder Woman didn't suck. Marvel...didn't. And DC may have tried that hard because either A. the producer actually liked the character this time or B. The studio was going to sacrifice the cast and crews first born daughters to lord satan... no one at Marvel was told "this has to work". And thats sad, because Marvel trademark is taking these B - C rated properties that no one outside of comics or really inside of comics because no one cared about the avengers in 2003... and putting love and craftsmanship into them. Like what studio would give a flying shit about antman. Marvel does. Guardians of the Galaxy. Marvel working overtime to make that work too. Ok but seriously who gives a shit about Doctor Strange? Marvel does. And sure Captain Marvel has objectively good movie ingredients. But I dare to ask...so what? Nothing objectively bad... ok 50% of the action scenes were very objectively bad... but nothing besides that objectively bad doesn't make a good movie. Doesn't make a bad one either so... meh. I could have saved 22 dollars.

iron man 2 had the suitcase
Teleku
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Reply #115 on: March 11, 2019, 09:46:50 AM

Iron Man 2 did nothing wrong, fuck all you haters.

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Ironwood
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Reply #116 on: March 11, 2019, 10:07:49 AM

On the one hand, Suitcase Silver Centurion Suit.

On the other hand, Criminally bad Fusion of Crimson Dynamo and Blacklash.

Gripping hand ;  film didn't really DO anything else with itself.  Solid support from Rhodey and Widow, I guess, but it WAS a kinda 'meh' film.


Not as bad as 3 though.   why so serious?

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Reply #117 on: March 11, 2019, 10:20:07 AM

"iron man 2 and 3 are bad"

"iron man is the only reason the mcu actually exists because rdj massively exceeded expectations with iron man 1"

while these can all be true

iron man 2 and 3 are still massively entertaining

bad is hulk and thor / 2
NowhereMan
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Reply #118 on: March 11, 2019, 11:25:35 AM

As weird as it feels to say, MediumHigh has a point that Danvers never really felt in danger. Possibly the only real tension point was . That is certainly true and there is a drop in the tension because of it but Superman movies have, when they've been good, done a very good job of creating tension around threats to the supporting cast. They could probably have done more to put her friends and allies in real peril or at least increase the tension when they are.

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Threash
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Reply #119 on: March 11, 2019, 05:23:19 PM

I just watched half the MCU crumble into dust with zero feeling that any of them were in any danger. Only feeling of danger they can scrounge up is when contracts end.

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eldaec
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Reply #120 on: March 11, 2019, 05:40:15 PM

I just watched half the MCU crumble into dust with zero feeling that any of them were in any danger.

Exactly like reading an Avengers comic then.

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Reply #121 on: March 11, 2019, 10:35:48 PM

That is certainly true and there is a drop in the tension because of it but Superman movies have, when they've been good, done a very good job of creating tension around threats to the supporting cast. They could probably have done more to put her friends and allies in real peril or at least increase the tension when they are.
I was thinking about this last night and I think I disagree. The specific example I had in my head was 24, where every fucking episode Jack Bauer's daughter gets kidnapped by the bad guys. The show can't put Jack in danger because the central conceit is that he's ridiculously badass and never loses a fight. So, rather than threatening him and introducing a weakness to the character, his daughter becomes the plot coupon that provides the necessary tension. This basically turns everybody in the movie who is Not Jack into a proxy for an actual existential threat to Jack himself. It's lame and it's shit. Even Superman could be personally threatened via Kryptonite, DC writers didn't need to dangle Lois over a volcano every episode to provide a conflict.

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jgsugden
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Reply #122 on: March 11, 2019, 10:46:55 PM

We don't really think she is on par with Superman, right?  She can't fly as fast as the Flash runs, she can't throw a moon, she can't see through walls, she can't hear around the world, ... she shoots powerful energy blasts, she is on Thor's playing field in terms of toughness, and she flies.  She also has a 'seventh sense' and can fly at lightspeed in space (survive in space)… but she is not Superman levels of power.  No Marvel character is.

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Reply #123 on: March 11, 2019, 11:36:25 PM

We don't really think she is on par with Superman, right?  She can't fly as fast as the Flash runs, she can't throw a moon, she can't see through walls, she can't hear around the world, ... she shoots powerful energy blasts, she is on Thor's playing field in terms of toughness, and she flies.  She also has a 'seventh sense' and can fly at lightspeed in space (survive in space)… but she is not Superman levels of power.  No Marvel character is.

When discussing MCU and tv/movie DC characters, nothing is really at peak canon power tiers. Smallville Superman was WAY slower than Flash, couldn't throw a moon, had x-ray vision, couldn't hear even more than a few miles away, etc. Movie Superman wasn't top tier Superman either.

I haven't seen Captain Marvel yet, but she's absolutely Marvel's Superman so to speak.

Different but same. Of course adjustments had to be made.
NowhereMan
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Reply #124 on: March 12, 2019, 07:36:54 AM

That is certainly true and there is a drop in the tension because of it but Superman movies have, when they've been good, done a very good job of creating tension around threats to the supporting cast. They could probably have done more to put her friends and allies in real peril or at least increase the tension when they are.
I was thinking about this last night and I think I disagree. The specific example I had in my head was 24, where every fucking episode Jack Bauer's daughter gets kidnapped by the bad guys. The show can't put Jack in danger because the central conceit is that he's ridiculously badass and never loses a fight. So, rather than threatening him and introducing a weakness to the character, his daughter becomes the plot coupon that provides the necessary tension. This basically turns everybody in the movie who is Not Jack into a proxy for an actual existential threat to Jack himself. It's lame and it's shit. Even Superman could be personally threatened via Kryptonite, DC writers didn't need to dangle Lois over a volcano every episode to provide a conflict.

See I was actually thinking introducing tension less by having them be a proxy to Marvel but there were some points where there were concurrent threats going on. I think they kind of did try to have her allies facing danger and fighting without her but didn't really commit to it. Then again if they're not facing the main threat, their struggle doesn't hold as much tension and it would be a pretty brave decision to have the Big Bad defeated by the side characters while the main character holds off the distraction or similar. We should probably count ourselves lucky they didn't go the IM1 route and have the main adversary get a sudden and unexpected power up so that they could face off directly.

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Raguel
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Reply #125 on: March 13, 2019, 06:02:34 PM

Just saw it awhile ago. I think it had a lot of good/great scenes but overall I'm not sure how I feel about it as a movie. As sometimes happens in comics movies I'm not sure if I should feel proud and happy or sad and pathetic that I knew who  was the moment I heard the name.

Loved all the actors in their various roles. I didn't care for the some of the creative changes made but whatever.
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Reply #126 on: March 13, 2019, 06:11:02 PM

The major plot device (the FTL engine) being a gaping plot hole of stupidity and irrelevance throughout the movie being another.



I will admit that the engine bugged me. They're clearly using FTL otherwise getting from the capital world of the Kree to earth would take centuries if not more. I sort of hand waved it as "this one lets them go even faster and to different galaxies." In reality, I think the writers just didn't understand the science or figured most of the audience would be too dumb to call them on it.

I'm not sure why it mattered so much, but the space crafts themselves don't use FTL but there are these "jump points" like B5.  I guess if you have FTL crafts you can't be tracked or captured.
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Reply #127 on: March 13, 2019, 06:16:41 PM

In fact, the last two Thor movies both give examples of this (Dark World with Loki knowing secret ways out of Asgard to other planets/realms) and Ragnarok with all the wormholes leading to Sakaar. GotG2 also showed jump points in effect.
Setanta
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Reply #128 on: March 14, 2019, 12:18:43 AM

I enjoyed the movie. My 10yo daughter enjoyed it as well.

My only concern is she will take away the emotional investment in Infinity War.

Still a good movie.

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jgsugden
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Reply #129 on: March 14, 2019, 06:01:40 AM

...My only concern is she will take away the emotional investment in Infinity War...
Why?

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Ironwood
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Reply #130 on: March 14, 2019, 05:49:36 PM

Saw it, loved it.

Except the fight scenes, which were oddly shakycam bad.

But everything and everyone else was great.

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Threash
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Reply #131 on: March 14, 2019, 08:45:01 PM

Saw it, loved it.

Except the fight scenes, which were oddly shakycam bad.

But everything and everyone else was great.


Same here, also didn't like that she's not only never called captain marvel there is no reason for anyone to ever call her that.

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Morat20
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Reply #132 on: March 15, 2019, 12:31:24 PM

Same here, also didn't like that she's not only never called captain marvel there is no reason for anyone to ever call her that.
I mean, movie-wise, when was the appropriate point for her to choose a superhero name? Or for anyone to name her? I mean maybe they could have shoehorned that into the end, but that would have felt hella cheesy.
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Reply #133 on: March 15, 2019, 01:26:19 PM

Same here, also didn't like that she's not only never called captain marvel there is no reason for anyone to ever call her that.
I mean, movie-wise, when was the appropriate point for her to choose a superhero name? Or for anyone to name her? I mean maybe they could have shoehorned that into the end, but that would have felt hella cheesy.

The several times she called the little girl "liutenant trouble" would have been perfect for a name drop. Instead it seemed like they went out of their way to make sure nobody would ever call her Captain Marvel ("my name is Carol Danvers!" and "It's pronounced Mar-Vell, two words")

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Ironwood
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Reply #134 on: March 15, 2019, 01:49:16 PM

Well, yeah, but one of the themes of the movie was, you know, people trying to take away her name and identity, sooooo

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Threash
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Reply #135 on: March 15, 2019, 01:58:00 PM

It's still the name of the goddamn movie!

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Ironwood
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Reply #136 on: March 15, 2019, 02:01:32 PM

So was Zombeavers, but it was retarded when they said it.

 why so serious?

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Riggswolfe
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Reply #137 on: March 15, 2019, 02:54:39 PM

It's still the name of the goddamn movie!

Such a weird thing to get hung up on. There really was no natural way to bring up that name.


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Reply #138 on: March 15, 2019, 03:08:51 PM

I'm trying to remember - does anyone ever actually say 'Captain America?'  Isn't it always just 'the Captain' or 'Cap?'

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Threash
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Reply #139 on: March 15, 2019, 03:25:25 PM

Wasn't it the name of his USO show or whatever that they had him doing at the start of the movie?

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