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Author Topic: Cyberpunk 2077  (Read 20653 times)
Tebonas
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Reply #175 on: June 24, 2020, 02:43:05 PM

That really is a matter of personal taste. For me I say fuck all twitch-based combat in RPGs and give me tactical combat, preferably turn based. Others would disagree and think memorizing attack patterns is fun and never explain why they want to play RPGs for that.

Since I can't answer the question for anybody else, I'll say the Gold Box Series had good combat  awesome, for real
Trippy
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Reply #176 on: June 24, 2020, 04:42:41 PM

Like, I'm not sure what the non-jank gold standard is then.
There are dozens upon dozens of games that have better 3rd person melee combat systems than The Witcher 3.
Since apparently it's not obvious to some that there are better 3rd person melee combat combat systems out there let me explain better.

Falconeer brought up the FROM Software games which are an obvious example. And the 3rd person clones and "inspired by" games that I've tried have good combat too so you are already in the dozen or so count of games with better combat. However those games typically have much more "deliberate" combat pacing (button mashing generally will get you killed) and are optimized for 1-on-1 combat (multi-target combat is awkward at best) so don't really match the style of combat The Witcher 3 is going for.

Monster Hunter: World (and it's derivatives) is similar. It has a great single (very large) target combat system but isn't really designed for multiple (mostly) humanoid-sized targets. As an aside there's a special event quest in MH:W that let's you play as Geralt which is fun diversion and also quite challenging.

On the other extreme are games like Devil May Cry / Bayonetta / God of War (pre-PS4) / NieR: Automata with their flashy combo-based mixed melee and ranged combat systems. Those are also much better than TW3 but aren't as grounded in reality as TW3 is. The PS4 God of War that Rasix mentioned, is more like that though, and would be interesting to see how it might play with a zoomed out camera.

Next we have the recent Assassin's Creed games Origins and Odyssey which ditched the previous "counter-based" synced-animation combat system(s) for a more traditional direct attack hit-box based system which looks and feels better to play TW3 I would argue, though they are pretty similar in design.

There's also something Dragon's Dogma which is more "flashy" but has it's own jankiness so it's maybe a wash.

And finally the combat system TW3 should've adopted, in my option is the one in the Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor/War games, which were inspired by the Batman Arkham games.

E.g. watch this Shadow of War sequence* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzmApOWnGes&t=1m15s

and also check out one the Netflix show combat sequences (warning graphic violence): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biZwR6CzVzs

Now compare that to TW3 with a similar setup to the above ME:SoW clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8NWRYEjZJo

I mean it's fine? But it is clunky and awkward and very same looking compared to ME:SoM/SoW.

Here's also an AC: Origins arena combat sequence to compare to as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRtpY9NIing

* Shadow of War came out after TW3 but Mordor was released before
MediumHigh
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Reply #177 on: June 24, 2020, 04:44:55 PM

That really is a matter of personal taste. For me I say fuck all twitch-based combat in RPGs and give me tactical combat, preferably turn based. Others would disagree and think memorizing attack patterns is fun and never explain why they want to play RPGs for that.

Since I can't answer the question for anybody else, I'll say the Gold Box Series had good combat  awesome, for real

I like turn based combat in general but I grew up with JRPG's whose combat system is "skill does thing" and "maybe don't stand over cliff" when it comes to the turn based strategy jrpg's or memorizing rock, paper, shotgun.. I haven't and maybe will never get into the D&D inspired combat systems... I did like dragon age inquisition (which you can force to be a turn based game with religious pausing) but going by the western rpg crowd apparently that game isn't "deep enough".

If bored and want something to read click here -> http://memiorsofatroll.wordpress.com/
MediumHigh
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Reply #178 on: June 24, 2020, 04:53:46 PM

Like, I'm not sure what the non-jank gold standard is then.
There are dozens upon dozens of games that have better 3rd person melee combat systems than The Witcher 3.
Since apparently it's not obvious to some that there are better 3rd person melee combat combat systems out there let me explain better.

Falconeer brought up the FROM Software games which are an obvious example. And the 3rd person clones and "inspired by" games that I've tried have good combat too so you are already in the dozen or so count of games with better combat. However those games typically have much more "deliberate" combat pacing (button mashing generally will get you killed) and are optimized for 1-on-1 combat (multi-target combat is awkward at best) so don't really match the style of combat The Witcher 3 is going for.

Monster Hunter: World (and it's derivatives) is similar. It has a great single (very large) target combat system but isn't really designed for multiple (mostly) humanoid-sized targets. As an aside there's a special event quest in MH:W that let's you play as Geralt which is fun diversion and also quite challenging.

On the other extreme are games like Devil May Cry / Bayonetta / God of War (pre-PS4) / NieR: Automata with their flashy combo-based mixed melee and ranged combat systems. Those are also much better than TW3 but aren't as grounded in reality as TW3 is. The PS4 God of War that Rasix mentioned, is more like that though, and would be interesting to see how it might play with a zoomed out camera.

Next we have the recent Assassin's Creed games Origins and Odyssey which ditched the previous "counter-based" synced-animation combat system(s) for a more traditional direct attack hit-box based system which looks and feels better to play TW3 I would argue, though they are pretty similar in design.

There's also something Dragon's Dogma which is more "flashy" but has it's own jankiness so it's maybe a wash.

And finally the combat system TW3 should've adopted, in my option is the one in the Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor/War games, which were inspired by the Batman Arkham games.

E.g. watch this Shadow of War sequence* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzmApOWnGes&t=1m15s

and also check out one the Netflix show combat sequences (warning graphic violence): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biZwR6CzVzs

Now compare that to TW3 with a similar setup to the above ME:SoW clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8NWRYEjZJo

I mean it's fine? But it is clunky and awkward and very same looking compared to ME:SoM/SoW.

Here's also an AC: Origins arena combat sequence to compare to as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRtpY9NIing

* Shadow of War came out after TW3 but Mordor was released before


I am decidedly late to the council generation party and triple AAA gaming in general so about half the games mentioned are on the list. Generally I draw from my experience in Shadows of Mordor (good), Witcher 3 (also good), Dragon Age Inq (can be clunky but mostly good) and Horizon Zero Dawn (good but eh??..)

I can say shadows vs witcher 3 combat is an interesting debate but i lean toward the witcher due to the fact that the rpg mechanics doesn't make the game extremely easy in one game, but it really really does in another. Me personally I don't have a big boner for c-c-combo's, as nice as they are, against purely npc's opponents so generally what i look for is whether i had to do some thinking before i murder something at a reasonable difficulty and not just A attack move or B dodge roll to the giant bum.

If bored and want something to read click here -> http://memiorsofatroll.wordpress.com/
Khaldun
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Reply #179 on: June 24, 2020, 04:59:16 PM

If I had to name a game where the combat is itself very satisfying to me personally, I might come up with Mount and Blade. (Bannerlord too, I guess, but so far everything else about Bannerlord, um, needs work).

To me the From Software games almost remind me of Dragon's Lair, in an odd way--you have to time everything right, remember some patterns, respond with great precision. They have a choreography that is built on repetition and rehearsal that I really don't enjoy, though I appreciate the challenge level at times. It's odd, I think I like those games for their aesthetic more than I do the combat. When combat isn't turn-based tactical, I frankly appreciate a kind of looseness and a forgiving feeling to it. Witcher 3 is one of the few where the rehearsed, precise nature of the combat felt genuinely story-based and genuinely meaningful in narrative terms, and where most combats felt like they mattered in a distinctive way, even the kind of "ok, so you're in a swamp and there are some drowners here". I will give FROM's games this: they *also* don't feel like it's just waves and waves of trash monsters that you just button-mash at, which is maybe the worst of all worlds from my perspective.
Hawkbit
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Reply #180 on: June 24, 2020, 06:13:28 PM

SoW/SoM combat on a game with the breadth of W3? That's exciting stuff to imagine.
lamaros
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Reply #181 on: June 24, 2020, 09:55:37 PM

SoW/SoM combat on a game with the breadth of W3? That's exciting stuff to imagine.

Agree

Expect poison from the standing water.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #182 on: June 25, 2020, 12:02:47 AM

Trippy's list is interesting. Most of those games are combat games  with a thin veneer of RPG stuff on top in some cases, and none at all in a few. A lot of those games you play for the combat systems. If it has a good story and RPG stuff, great! Bonus! The Witcher 3 is the opposite. I generally enjoyed the combat in it but it was not the focus of the game. Oddly, I enjoying playing as Cirila much more than I did Geralt. Her playstyle is the type of combat I tend to enjoy. She was faster and her attacks flowed better than his did.

Out of all the games Trippy mentions, I personally feel AC: Odyssey comes closest to straddling the line and having the best of both worlds. An RPG style game with great combat. Sadly for me I played Origins after Odyssey and had trouble getting into it because it was a huge step back for me personally and what I enjoyed.

I still don't see Witcher 3 combat as "janky" but clearly it can't compete with games that are built from the ground up for 3rd person combat.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Sky
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Reply #183 on: June 25, 2020, 08:34:15 AM

I still don't see Witcher 3 combat as "janky" but clearly it can't compete with games that are built from the ground up for 3rd person combat.
This.

I'm sorry I even asked at this point.

Sky
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Reply #184 on: June 25, 2020, 11:18:24 AM

« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 01:51:59 PM by Sky »

disKret
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Reply #185 on: June 29, 2020, 09:35:22 AM

Sorry. Duplicate.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 09:37:10 AM by disKret »
Goumindong
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Reply #186 on: July 02, 2020, 08:00:54 PM

Its weird bringing up From Software because Witcher 3 combat is generally regarded as "easy dark souls". So long as, during combat, you aren't running everywhere there its pretty jank free. You die when you don't know enemies attack profiles and the dodge type. You succeed once you do. When they attack you dodge and then hit them. (or use a sign) When in doubt you keep dodging.
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