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Tebonas
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Reply #175 on: June 24, 2020, 02:43:05 PM

That really is a matter of personal taste. For me I say fuck all twitch-based combat in RPGs and give me tactical combat, preferably turn based. Others would disagree and think memorizing attack patterns is fun and never explain why they want to play RPGs for that.

Since I can't answer the question for anybody else, I'll say the Gold Box Series had good combat  awesome, for real
Trippy
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Reply #176 on: June 24, 2020, 04:42:41 PM

Like, I'm not sure what the non-jank gold standard is then.
There are dozens upon dozens of games that have better 3rd person melee combat systems than The Witcher 3.
Since apparently it's not obvious to some that there are better 3rd person melee combat combat systems out there let me explain better.

Falconeer brought up the FROM Software games which are an obvious example. And the 3rd person clones and "inspired by" games that I've tried have good combat too so you are already in the dozen or so count of games with better combat. However those games typically have much more "deliberate" combat pacing (button mashing generally will get you killed) and are optimized for 1-on-1 combat (multi-target combat is awkward at best) so don't really match the style of combat The Witcher 3 is going for.

Monster Hunter: World (and it's derivatives) is similar. It has a great single (very large) target combat system but isn't really designed for multiple (mostly) humanoid-sized targets. As an aside there's a special event quest in MH:W that let's you play as Geralt which is fun diversion and also quite challenging.

On the other extreme are games like Devil May Cry / Bayonetta / God of War (pre-PS4) / NieR: Automata with their flashy combo-based mixed melee and ranged combat systems. Those are also much better than TW3 but aren't as grounded in reality as TW3 is. The PS4 God of War that Rasix mentioned, is more like that though, and would be interesting to see how it might play with a zoomed out camera.

Next we have the recent Assassin's Creed games Origins and Odyssey which ditched the previous "counter-based" synced-animation combat system(s) for a more traditional direct attack hit-box based system which looks and feels better to play TW3 I would argue, though they are pretty similar in design.

There's also something Dragon's Dogma which is more "flashy" but has it's own jankiness so it's maybe a wash.

And finally the combat system TW3 should've adopted, in my option is the one in the Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor/War games, which were inspired by the Batman Arkham games.

E.g. watch this Shadow of War sequence* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzmApOWnGes&t=1m15s

and also check out one the Netflix show combat sequences (warning graphic violence): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biZwR6CzVzs

Now compare that to TW3 with a similar setup to the above ME:SoW clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8NWRYEjZJo

I mean it's fine? But it is clunky and awkward and very same looking compared to ME:SoM/SoW.

Here's also an AC: Origins arena combat sequence to compare to as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRtpY9NIing

* Shadow of War came out after TW3 but Mordor was released before
MediumHigh
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Reply #177 on: June 24, 2020, 04:44:55 PM

That really is a matter of personal taste. For me I say fuck all twitch-based combat in RPGs and give me tactical combat, preferably turn based. Others would disagree and think memorizing attack patterns is fun and never explain why they want to play RPGs for that.

Since I can't answer the question for anybody else, I'll say the Gold Box Series had good combat  awesome, for real

I like turn based combat in general but I grew up with JRPG's whose combat system is "skill does thing" and "maybe don't stand over cliff" when it comes to the turn based strategy jrpg's or memorizing rock, paper, shotgun.. I haven't and maybe will never get into the D&D inspired combat systems... I did like dragon age inquisition (which you can force to be a turn based game with religious pausing) but going by the western rpg crowd apparently that game isn't "deep enough".

If bored and want something to read click here -> http://memiorsofatroll.wordpress.com/
MediumHigh
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Reply #178 on: June 24, 2020, 04:53:46 PM

Like, I'm not sure what the non-jank gold standard is then.
There are dozens upon dozens of games that have better 3rd person melee combat systems than The Witcher 3.
Since apparently it's not obvious to some that there are better 3rd person melee combat combat systems out there let me explain better.

Falconeer brought up the FROM Software games which are an obvious example. And the 3rd person clones and "inspired by" games that I've tried have good combat too so you are already in the dozen or so count of games with better combat. However those games typically have much more "deliberate" combat pacing (button mashing generally will get you killed) and are optimized for 1-on-1 combat (multi-target combat is awkward at best) so don't really match the style of combat The Witcher 3 is going for.

Monster Hunter: World (and it's derivatives) is similar. It has a great single (very large) target combat system but isn't really designed for multiple (mostly) humanoid-sized targets. As an aside there's a special event quest in MH:W that let's you play as Geralt which is fun diversion and also quite challenging.

On the other extreme are games like Devil May Cry / Bayonetta / God of War (pre-PS4) / NieR: Automata with their flashy combo-based mixed melee and ranged combat systems. Those are also much better than TW3 but aren't as grounded in reality as TW3 is. The PS4 God of War that Rasix mentioned, is more like that though, and would be interesting to see how it might play with a zoomed out camera.

Next we have the recent Assassin's Creed games Origins and Odyssey which ditched the previous "counter-based" synced-animation combat system(s) for a more traditional direct attack hit-box based system which looks and feels better to play TW3 I would argue, though they are pretty similar in design.

There's also something Dragon's Dogma which is more "flashy" but has it's own jankiness so it's maybe a wash.

And finally the combat system TW3 should've adopted, in my option is the one in the Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor/War games, which were inspired by the Batman Arkham games.

E.g. watch this Shadow of War sequence* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzmApOWnGes&t=1m15s

and also check out one the Netflix show combat sequences (warning graphic violence): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biZwR6CzVzs

Now compare that to TW3 with a similar setup to the above ME:SoW clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8NWRYEjZJo

I mean it's fine? But it is clunky and awkward and very same looking compared to ME:SoM/SoW.

Here's also an AC: Origins arena combat sequence to compare to as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRtpY9NIing

* Shadow of War came out after TW3 but Mordor was released before


I am decidedly late to the council generation party and triple AAA gaming in general so about half the games mentioned are on the list. Generally I draw from my experience in Shadows of Mordor (good), Witcher 3 (also good), Dragon Age Inq (can be clunky but mostly good) and Horizon Zero Dawn (good but eh??..)

I can say shadows vs witcher 3 combat is an interesting debate but i lean toward the witcher due to the fact that the rpg mechanics doesn't make the game extremely easy in one game, but it really really does in another. Me personally I don't have a big boner for c-c-combo's, as nice as they are, against purely npc's opponents so generally what i look for is whether i had to do some thinking before i murder something at a reasonable difficulty and not just A attack move or B dodge roll to the giant bum.

If bored and want something to read click here -> http://memiorsofatroll.wordpress.com/
Khaldun
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Reply #179 on: June 24, 2020, 04:59:16 PM

If I had to name a game where the combat is itself very satisfying to me personally, I might come up with Mount and Blade. (Bannerlord too, I guess, but so far everything else about Bannerlord, um, needs work).

To me the From Software games almost remind me of Dragon's Lair, in an odd way--you have to time everything right, remember some patterns, respond with great precision. They have a choreography that is built on repetition and rehearsal that I really don't enjoy, though I appreciate the challenge level at times. It's odd, I think I like those games for their aesthetic more than I do the combat. When combat isn't turn-based tactical, I frankly appreciate a kind of looseness and a forgiving feeling to it. Witcher 3 is one of the few where the rehearsed, precise nature of the combat felt genuinely story-based and genuinely meaningful in narrative terms, and where most combats felt like they mattered in a distinctive way, even the kind of "ok, so you're in a swamp and there are some drowners here". I will give FROM's games this: they *also* don't feel like it's just waves and waves of trash monsters that you just button-mash at, which is maybe the worst of all worlds from my perspective.
Hawkbit
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Reply #180 on: June 24, 2020, 06:13:28 PM

SoW/SoM combat on a game with the breadth of W3? That's exciting stuff to imagine.
lamaros
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Reply #181 on: June 24, 2020, 09:55:37 PM

SoW/SoM combat on a game with the breadth of W3? That's exciting stuff to imagine.

Agree
Riggswolfe
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Reply #182 on: June 25, 2020, 12:02:47 AM

Trippy's list is interesting. Most of those games are combat games  with a thin veneer of RPG stuff on top in some cases, and none at all in a few. A lot of those games you play for the combat systems. If it has a good story and RPG stuff, great! Bonus! The Witcher 3 is the opposite. I generally enjoyed the combat in it but it was not the focus of the game. Oddly, I enjoying playing as Cirila much more than I did Geralt. Her playstyle is the type of combat I tend to enjoy. She was faster and her attacks flowed better than his did.

Out of all the games Trippy mentions, I personally feel AC: Odyssey comes closest to straddling the line and having the best of both worlds. An RPG style game with great combat. Sadly for me I played Origins after Odyssey and had trouble getting into it because it was a huge step back for me personally and what I enjoyed.

I still don't see Witcher 3 combat as "janky" but clearly it can't compete with games that are built from the ground up for 3rd person combat.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Sky
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Reply #183 on: June 25, 2020, 08:34:15 AM

I still don't see Witcher 3 combat as "janky" but clearly it can't compete with games that are built from the ground up for 3rd person combat.
This.

I'm sorry I even asked at this point.

Sky
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Reply #184 on: June 25, 2020, 11:18:24 AM

« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 01:51:59 PM by Sky »

disKret
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Reply #185 on: June 29, 2020, 09:35:22 AM

Sorry. Duplicate.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 09:37:10 AM by disKret »
Goumindong
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Reply #186 on: July 02, 2020, 08:00:54 PM

Its weird bringing up From Software because Witcher 3 combat is generally regarded as "easy dark souls". So long as, during combat, you aren't running everywhere there its pretty jank free. You die when you don't know enemies attack profiles and the dodge type. You succeed once you do. When they attack you dodge and then hit them. (or use a sign) When in doubt you keep dodging.
eldaec
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Reply #187 on: August 23, 2020, 01:42:25 PM

Lots of dudes on the Internet suggesting this might be delayed again.

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Falconeer
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Reply #188 on: August 23, 2020, 02:58:13 PM

It's fine. The more they delay it the less patches it will need.

01101010
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Reply #189 on: August 23, 2020, 07:06:45 PM

It's fine. The more they delay it the less patches it will need.

*cough* Star Citizen. *cough cough*

 why so serious?

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Khaldun
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Reply #190 on: August 23, 2020, 09:36:26 PM

They have a ways to go before they're in that territory. The only issue here is obviously a): the longer it takes, the higher the expectation and b): it's important to remember that it took them three tries to get The Witcher to be a really great game, even granted the technological gap between the first game and the third one.
Velorath
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Reply #191 on: August 23, 2020, 11:44:01 PM

Development still sounds like it's going smoother than Bloodlines 2 at least so I'd put money on it beating that game to market.
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Reply #192 on: September 20, 2020, 02:52:53 PM

Amazon has the pre-order on sale for $49.94 on all platforms. Not sure how long it will last though.

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disKret
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Reply #193 on: October 27, 2020, 11:59:26 AM

Delayed. December 10th.
Rasix
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Reply #194 on: October 27, 2020, 12:24:14 PM

I'm guessing this game is Witcher 2 levels of buggy/unbalanced at this point. Going to be an interesting time playing this at launch. Expect a "mea cupla" 2.0 patch/director's edition in a year or so.

I'm still likely going to buy it at launch. I'm weak.

-Rasix
Sky
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Reply #195 on: October 27, 2020, 01:14:14 PM

Release delays only make me feel better about waiting to build a pc  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Khaldun
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Reply #196 on: October 27, 2020, 04:05:46 PM

I don't think so on Witcher 2, honestly--there's such a quantum leap in terms of skills and design between 2 and 3 that I think this is likely to have entirely new problems of bugginess and imbalance.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #197 on: October 28, 2020, 02:24:45 AM

The tweet makes it pretty clear that the issue is releasing on so many platforms at once. I think they got over ambitious with it personally. I'd have left off at least Stadia and the Switch for now if it was me.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Velorath
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Reply #198 on: October 28, 2020, 02:46:21 AM

eldaec
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Reply #199 on: October 28, 2020, 04:09:36 AM

The hands on previews a couple of months ago had some big red flags in them.

Worryingly no one seemed to be finding bugs, just describing the gameplay as kind of empty and generally meh.



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Reply #200 on: October 28, 2020, 08:51:01 AM


any dev at CDPR can get a job in 5 seconds anywhere in a pandemic. I don't want to victim blame but the game went gold, you've got the credit. Get outta there.
HaemishM
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Reply #201 on: October 28, 2020, 08:51:10 AM

Just because they make good games should not excuse that CDPR is pretty well known for abusing the crunch mentality in the gaming industry.

Tale
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Reply #202 on: October 29, 2020, 02:55:51 AM

The hands on previews a couple of months ago had some big red flags in them.

Worryingly no one seemed to be finding bugs, just describing the gameplay as kind of empty and generally meh.

People pre-ordering a game en masse is a massive red flag.
Cyrrex
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Reply #203 on: October 29, 2020, 12:35:37 PM

There are just waaaaay too many decent, good or great video games in existence to really give a shit if one fails to live up to expectations.  If it turns out great and takes another year to do so, fine.  If it is a broken, unfixable unfun mess forever, fine.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
justdave
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Reply #204 on: October 29, 2020, 02:09:07 PM

I still find it bemusing that in this day and age, people are surprised, SURPRISED, I TELL YOU! that working in game development is like playing russian roulette but with five bullets instead of one in the gun as far as earning a free trip to the rape shack goes.

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Tale
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Reply #205 on: December 08, 2020, 08:56:20 PM

Watching fans rage at Gamespot for giving it 7/10 (buggy, full of superfluous content, has some good side quests, characters and RPG mechanics, but otherwise disappointing).

PC Gamer is like "it's coming apart at the seams with bugs... play it in a few months" ... review score 78%.

Kotaku's write-up is basically "I played it for 40 hours and still don't know whether it's good or bad, but it sure is big and I'm tired."
Trippy
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Reply #206 on: December 08, 2020, 09:27:09 PM

Adding to the confusion is the claim by CDPR that some/most/all of the reviewers weren't on the "Day One" patch (of which there are at least two of to my knowledge, one of which is basically downloading the entire game all over again) so therefore all the complaints about the massive amounts of bugs are invalid. Oh and also none of the console versions were allowed to be reviewed, and the reviewers weren't allowed to show *any* of their own in-game footage. So basically a review clusterfuck of CDPR-proportions.

On the bright side the game releases at 4 PM tomorrow (Wednesday, Dec 9) in the Pacific Time Zone so I know what I'll be doing at that time tomorrow* awesome, for real

* making a character for a few hours and then not playing again until the "miracle miracle" patch is released

Hawkbit
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Reply #207 on: December 08, 2020, 09:33:19 PM

I'm going to grab it for PS4. I'm not expecting miracle game, but I expect it to be fun.

You gotta watch Kotaku - they get on a kick of really hating some games. They've been trash talking this game for months, so I fully expected them to be biased. CDPR doesn't make it easy - many of Kotaku's complaints are in regards to the business. The game should be reviewed on the basis of the game though, not the business practices of the creator.
Velorath
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Reply #208 on: December 08, 2020, 09:58:42 PM

I'd have considered picking up the PS5 version at some point, but recalled that it's not coming out until sometime next year now. On the plus side, CDPR might actually get the game playable by then.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #209 on: December 08, 2020, 11:31:21 PM

Watching fans rage at Gamespot for giving it 7/10 (buggy, full of superfluous content, has some good side quests, characters and RPG mechanics, but otherwise disappointing).

PC Gamer is like "it's coming apart at the seams with bugs... play it in a few months" ... review score 78%.

Kotaku's write-up is basically "I played it for 40 hours and still don't know whether it's good or bad, but it sure is big and I'm tired."


Way to cherry pick.  It's got a 91% on metacritic. Most reviews are glowing even when they mention bugs. Kotaku has had a massive hate-on for the game for months now. I mean the entire first paragraph of the review is nothing but a summary of how bad CDPR is and how racist and sexist they are but "I guess I'll review this game now." I mean, even as a liberal it made me roll my eyes.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2020, 11:35:19 PM by Riggswolfe »

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
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