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Author Topic: Marvel's Black Panther  (Read 3823 times)
Surlyboi
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eat a bag of dicks


Reply #70 on: February 26, 2018, 11:37:41 PM

I'd be interested in reading your social analysis.  Please post what you feel comfortable with so we can get that conversation started.

We can take it to politics(where you can't(?) go) if this gets contentious but the general thrust to me was an indictment of hegemony on a moral level.

Killmonger isn't just "an American" he is "one of us", as explained by the the guy they call colonizer. He goes to a top quality American College, he joins the top quality American military institutions and then uses that knowledge in order to destabilize a nation with the intent to make Wakanda the new Hegemon of the world. Killmonger's thesis is that American hegemony isn't working so lets try Wakandan Hegemony. But all the kills he racks up? Besides the ones you see on screen he does this for the US.

It was partially that. Killmonger (And his father before him) both felt that the injustices perpetrated on their brothers and sisters in other countries were wrong and that they had duty as the most advanced nation in the world to help their fellow black people. The difference between father and son came from the son's life without that father to guide him and only the hatred of a people he'd never known and the focus of being a weapon of that American hegemony. "I've even killed some of my own brothers on this continent, all so I could come here and kill you." He wanted to empower the disenfranchised using the only tools he had, violence and death. When all you have is a hammer...

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
Khaldun
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Reply #71 on: February 27, 2018, 06:33:47 AM

What I think is great about Killmonger as a character is that in some sense he's not wrong--T'Challa's alternative vision of a non-profit in Oakland is in some sense just standard Gates Foundation/NGO strategy that is right now accomplishing very little to change how power and wealth are distributed in the world. In some cases, development agencies just make that worse in parts of sub-Saharan Africa, even with the best intentions in the world. He's not right, either--if the Wakandans have been watching world history as avidly as they appear to be, they know that violent imperial interventions in the name of making things right also don't work (and usually don't have anything remotely like a good intention). But the emotional impulse behind the thought that if there's going to be no justice, if people who've committed great evil are going to get away it again and again, then why not burn the whole thing down? That's sound. It's both righteous and wrong. It's evil in a Shakespearean sense--a completely sympathetic kind of evil that it is tempting to endorse.
Surlyboi
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eat a bag of dicks


Reply #72 on: February 27, 2018, 07:49:17 AM

Totally. Which is one of the things that makes him arguably one of the best MCU villains to date.

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #73 on: February 27, 2018, 08:10:09 AM

The best villains are always ten degrees off of being the hero.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Azuredream
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Reply #74 on: February 27, 2018, 10:15:02 AM

This is the best superhero movie I've seen in a while. I loved the aesthetics and the soundtrack, and Killmonger is now one of my favorite villains.

The Lord of the Land approaches..
Soulflame
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Reply #75 on: February 27, 2018, 10:19:17 AM

Which is nonsense.

If the world finds out what Wakanda is sitting on, they'll wait until they have the ability to overrun Wakanda.  Which means, at best, that one of the super powers takes over Wakanda, and establishes a vibranium autocracy.

Or, more likely, China and the US blow up half the world and wipe out civilization.  Leaving Wakanda in ruins, and its people long dead.
Khaldun
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Reply #76 on: February 27, 2018, 10:36:19 AM

Sure, that's the long game, but...

I mean, if you ever played Chris Crawford's Balance of Power a zillion years ago, you learned really quickly that the game would always 'allow' an early invasion of Iran (I think it was Iran?) by the Soviets which you couldn't prevent. You just had to accept it and contain them to that. But more than a few times, folks playing it would just decide that on that move, or maybe some later move by the Soviets, that the game had been 'lost' and they'd just blow it all up out of spite. Because if the alternative in any situation is simply to accept that you must lose, that doesn't seem worth it.

If I had the power to inflict mortal wounds on powerful forces that I knew would eventually defeat me and cast my cause into ruin, I might still consider it. Because you know that if you mortally wound a dragon, even if you get eaten, it's likely to die after--or to be easy prey for the next adventurer to come along. Every revolutionary and rebel in world history has made the same calculation: that to hurt a vastly more powerful foe in a grevious way is worth it even if defeat is inevitable, to make the powerful feel fear and to encourage others to rise.
Raguel
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Reply #77 on: February 27, 2018, 04:02:03 PM

This might be of interest:

https://www.vox.com/culture/2018/2/26/17029572/black-panther-marvel-politics

In other news BP has made over 720 million internationally.
jgsugden
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Reply #78 on: February 27, 2018, 04:56:54 PM

Marvel Box Office Updated

BP is 3rd in box office, 5th if adjusted for inflation.  May end up #2 overall in both given the weak upcoming box office.

What can you tell me about gaming and fun in Charlotte, NC?
MediumHigh
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Reply #79 on: February 27, 2018, 05:20:09 PM

So I was sitting in a bar with a few friends. Relatively mixed crowd and describing black panther since we all saw it. We all agreed to liking the movie, and I found that funny because of the mixed crowd. So I describe killmonger as the following;

"Killmonger is interesting because for white people he is a straight villain and for black people he is a anti-hero"
And without pause the white guy in the group shouts "Killmonger is a villain!"
......
Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
"Point made" Ohhhhh, I see.



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Goumindong
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Reply #80 on: February 27, 2018, 05:33:17 PM

I'd be interested in reading your social analysis.  Please post what you feel comfortable with so we can get that conversation started.

We can take it to politics(where you can't(?) go) if this gets contentious but the general thrust to me was an indictment of hegemony on a moral level.

Killmonger isn't just "an American" he is "one of us", as explained by the the guy they call colonizer. He goes to a top quality American College, he joins the top quality American military institutions and then uses that knowledge in order to destabilize a nation with the intent to make Wakanda the new Hegemon of the world. Killmonger's thesis is that American hegemony isn't working so lets try Wakandan Hegemony. But all the kills he racks up? Besides the ones you see on screen he does this for the US.

It was partially that. Killmonger (And his father before him) both felt that the injustices perpetrated on their brothers and sisters in other countries were wrong and that they had duty as the most advanced nation in the world to help their fellow black people. The difference between father and son came from the son's life without that father to guide him and only the hatred of a people he'd never known and the focus of being a weapon of that American hegemony. "I've even killed some of my own brothers on this continent, all so I could come here and kill you." He wanted to empower the disenfranchised using the only tools he had, violence and death. When all you have is a hammer...

You are right on the motives but I don’t think that the thrust of the movie is that Killmongers motives are wrong but his methods. And for the most part a villain cannot really be constrained by circumstance to do something wrong for the right reason. If this were the case they would be a tragic hero.

So I don’t think it’s quite this because he is MIT educated. If he takes over Wakanda he should know that he has more options than violence and death. So it could have ended after the challenge if it wasn’t tool specific. He specifically makes the choice to not use soft power options because he believes that they do not work compared to hard power options. This is why it’s an indictment of US Hegemony.

Unfortunately for the movie it doesn’t quite go as hard into this as it should. Killmongers “oh no immediate threat” is to use terrorism. Activating implanted sleeper cells to cause devastation in major economic hubs.. Which is not really the “American Hegemonic way”. Not to suggest that what we do isn’t bad but the tactics Killmonger takes imply a force disparity that is not supposed to exist. Wakanda is supposed to be the preeminent economic and military power in the world that simply no one knows about.  Step 1 should have been activating the military to sink US carrier groups, and making targeted strikes against nuclear facilities.

But marvel has really really shied away from depicting US or Western Hegemony and what causes it. Not only would they not want to depict military attacks on US facilities (but they white as shit wouldn’t want to depict them in service to a noble goal!) but they don’t even like depicting the fact that they exist because doing so makes any movie super political immediately. I am kind of giving them a pass on this aspect because of it. I mean there is fearless and then there is stupid.

Also Killmonger is neither the villain or an anti-hero for white folks. He is the hero we deserve
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #81 on: February 27, 2018, 07:47:27 PM

Which is nonsense.

If the world finds out what Wakanda is sitting on, they'll wait until they have the ability to overrun Wakanda.  Which means, at best, that one of the super powers takes over Wakanda, and establishes a vibranium autocracy.

Or, more likely, China and the US blow up half the world and wipe out civilization.  Leaving Wakanda in ruins, and its people long dead.

With their level of technology I would be shocked if any amount of nuclear carnage would bother wakanda proper even the slightest.  Worst case scenario the rest of the world is in ashes and they just keep on going as normal.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
BobtheSomething
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Reply #82 on: February 27, 2018, 09:16:46 PM

So I was sitting in a bar with a few friends. Relatively mixed crowd and describing black panther since we all saw it. We all agreed to liking the movie, and I found that funny because of the mixed crowd. So I describe killmonger as the following;

"Killmonger is interesting because for white people he is a straight villain and for black people he is a anti-hero"
And without pause the white guy in the group shouts "Killmonger is a villain!"
......
Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
"Point made" Ohhhhh, I see.




Really?

You must know some stunted white people.  Very few of the white people I know thought of Kilmonger as a straight up villain.
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Reply #83 on: February 28, 2018, 12:06:33 AM

Its really depends on how conservative or liberal leaning. the white guys i went to see killmonger with, who leaned more villain felt he was compelling. my right wing friend while he didnt hate killmonger didnt see the much beyond marvel villain number 12.

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jgsugden
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Reply #84 on: February 28, 2018, 01:16:28 AM

It also depends upon your definition of villain.  A 'bad guy' is a villain, but a dictionary definition of villain is also someone that furthers an evil scheme.  A character can fit the definition of hero, anti-hero and villain all at the same time.

Regardless Killmonger was one of the most interesting characters we've seen in the MCU.  I don't give a shit about the label applied to him.  Hero, anti-hero, villain... I hope he rises and returns to the realm of the living.  There are a number of ways that could be done in the MCU.  We have magic, Wakandan advanced science, and time travel.  They just would need to find the right angle to do it - and hopefully a way to do it that doesn't invalidate what his journey meant for Wakanda.  They could move on to other characters as villains, but I could see a longer journey for this character that is worth telling.

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Hoax
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Reply #85 on: March 02, 2018, 06:28:15 PM

This was good and had the potentially to be really great but didn't quite see it out.

It was held back by the action which was really weak and the fact that Black Panther himself just didn't give Killmonger enough to work with/against. Also the movie felt rushed at times you wished it wasn't rushed and its hard not to think that this was because time was wasted on shit we didn't need to waste it on. The could have certainly found a more useful white good guy insert than the stupid CIA character that would have taken up less time in the movie to make work.

All told though one of if not the best MCU villain, overall a solid marvel movie carried by parts of the movie that so far haven't been any of the marvel movie's strengths really.

My biggest disappointment was that there wasn't a much more big deal post trailer setup for Infinity War.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
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jgsugden
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Reply #86 on: March 25, 2018, 07:54:22 PM

Top grossing Superhero Movie ever. It is one of my favorites, but this surprises me. Still third when adjusted for inflation, but still...

What can you tell me about gaming and fun in Charlotte, NC?
Trippy
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Reply #87 on: March 25, 2018, 09:06:09 PM

In the US.
NowhereMan
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Reply #88 on: March 26, 2018, 05:22:55 AM

Killmonger is an anti-colonial, anti-hero. My reading of his tactics was that these are very much the tactics he's been trained in by the US, methods of disrupting and collapsing governmental structures in countries. He might have the option of just sinking US carrier groups but the first stage is destroy the confidence of the populaces that their governments can protect them. Killmonger is, I think, a villain not because he doesn't have anything noble or justifiable in his worldview but because he's seen 'his' people oppressed and harmed and his response is revenge. He isn't out to make the world a better or fairer place but to take current unjust system and reverse it, conquer the colonisers and make them feel the oppression. If you feel sympathy towards anti-colonial movements that's pretty understandable, I think he's a villain but I think he's also a nuanced and interesting villain. He's a not a moustache twirler, he's motivated by outrage at injustice.

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Ironwood
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Reply #89 on: March 26, 2018, 05:30:49 AM

That's fine, except he's also hugely angry at Wakanda, punishing them and using them.

So, he's basically a cock.

Also, I'm not sure what spurred your post to action.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
NowhereMan
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Reply #90 on: March 26, 2018, 05:33:45 AM

I was catching up on the thread and got to the bit arguing about whether Killmonger was a villain or an anti-hero and didn't really care to comment on the relative strength of the box-office performance Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

"Look at my car. Do you think that was bought with the earnest love of geeks?" - HaemishM
Ironwood
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Reply #91 on: March 26, 2018, 05:39:27 AM

Fair dos

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Surlyboi
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eat a bag of dicks


Reply #92 on: March 27, 2018, 10:51:12 PM

Utterly a dick. Still had the best line in the film with, "Drop me in the ocean with my ancestors that knew death was better than bondage."

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #93 on: April 06, 2018, 03:08:55 PM

This was top to bottom such a well crafted and well put together film. Easily one of the best MCU movies I’ve seen yet.

Serkis was great as Klaue (which translated from German could either mean Claw or Thief/Thievery) and Killmonger is easily one of the most believable villains/anti–hero characters yet.

We had so much fun seeing this.
jgsugden
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Reply #94 on: April 06, 2018, 03:15:08 PM

In the US.
Looks like it will end up second when adjusted for inflation in the US, and 5th from non-US perspective (3rd worldwide).

The performance surprised me given that it was a fairly new character that is clearly not an A tier character in the comics. 

Now, the question is whether Infinity War blows it out of the water, competes with it, or falls short.

What can you tell me about gaming and fun in Charlotte, NC?
HaemishM
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Reply #95 on: April 06, 2018, 09:08:00 PM

Don't forget this film was released in February. It's done absolutely insane, summer tentpole numbers in a month that is traditionally where studios send movies to die in obscurity.

jgsugden
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Reply #96 on: April 07, 2018, 09:35:54 AM

Don't forget this film was released in February. It's done absolutely insane, summer tentpole numbers in a month that is traditionally where studios send movies to die in obscurity.
True.

What can you tell me about gaming and fun in Charlotte, NC?
Raguel
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Reply #97 on: April 07, 2018, 02:24:13 PM

Black Panther pitch meeting.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0MvS_NehZU

IMO war rhinos are both stupid AND awesome.  why so serious?
Goumindong
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Reply #98 on: April 07, 2018, 03:41:50 PM

Killmonger is an anti-colonial, anti-hero. My reading of his tactics was that these are very much the tactics he's been trained in by the US, methods of disrupting and collapsing governmental structures in countries. He might have the option of just sinking US carrier groups but the first stage is destroy the confidence of the populaces that their governments can protect them. Killmonger is, I think, a villain not because he doesn't have anything noble or justifiable in his worldview but because he's seen 'his' people oppressed and harmed and his response is revenge. He isn't out to make the world a better or fairer place but to take current unjust system and reverse it, conquer the colonisers and make them feel the oppression. If you feel sympathy towards anti-colonial movements that's pretty understandable, I think he's a villain but I think he's also a nuanced and interesting villain. He's a not a moustache twirler, he's motivated by outrage at injustice.
killmonger isn’t anti-colonial. He is anti “us being colonized”. He is pro “us colonizing other people”.

It’s explicit in its theme here. Killmonger supports insurgencies against governments he doesn’t like. He isn’t just going after the West but also the rest of the world. The Hobbit explains it simply that “he is one of ours”. IE he is an American in philosophy, strategy, and tactics.
Khaldun
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Reply #99 on: April 07, 2018, 07:09:27 PM

Yes--but importantly, *black* American. E.g., he agrees with old-style American imperialism but at the same time, specifically wants it to redress the suffering of African people in the diaspora, who are the main victims of modernity in some sense. Which, if there really was an unambiguously powerful technology that conferred an unbeatable advantage on small numbers of people in miiltary conflicts, would be a reasonable position in some sense. It's no less than what Western Europe did circa 1875 to Africa, the Middle East and South Asia--a brief window of serious force asymmetry opened with the repeating rifle and then the machine gun that lasted about 35 years, and that asymmetry was used to advance rapid imperial conquest. When you go back even 75 years, European forces (and American ones) enjoyed virtually no meaningful advantage over most non-Western militaries maintained by centralized states in Asia, the Middle East and Africa.

So his plan isn't ridiculous when it comes to expressing supremacy and expressing an ideology of supremacy/vengeance. It's just afterwards that's the problem--and that's what T'Challa and other Wakandans see very well, I'm sure in part because they've been observing world history so thoughtfully from behind their screen.
Pagz
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Reply #100 on: May 08, 2018, 06:40:52 AM

I just saw this today, and I agree with Ironwood... I may have been more interested in it if it came out 10 years ago, but it's a pretty standard Marvel affair.

Killmonger seems a weak villain, he blames Wakanda for too much. Everyone was trading slaves throughout history, what were they meant to do? At the time, they probably didn't see anything wrong with it. He just seemed like a complete sociopath that I can't sympathize with him at all. He manipulates everyone around him with his charisma to do what he wants, like his "bonnie" at the start of the film and Klaw, and then when that doesn't work, uses lethal force. Unlike Magneto, who hates non-mutants because of what they would do as a race, Killmonger is projecting what Black Panthers Dad did to the world, because his Dad tried to kill him and his buddy? He didn't even have much of a scene with his father in the afterlife either, so any motivations he may have had for vengeance never get explored and he proves he's doing it just to see the world burn.

That Gorilla clan was the highlight of the film though, such ballers.
satael
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Reply #101 on: May 08, 2018, 10:29:58 AM

I also so this recently and thought it was mediocre. It could have been more interesting in my opinion if the villain hadn't been so comically bad and the good guys would have needed to justify to others (and themselves) why they were going against the result of the leadership challenge.
palmer_eldritch
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Reply #102 on: May 08, 2018, 03:07:23 PM

Yes--but importantly, *black* American. E.g., he agrees with old-style American imperialism but at the same time, specifically wants it to redress the suffering of African people in the diaspora, who are the main victims of modernity in some sense. Which, if there really was an unambiguously powerful technology that conferred an unbeatable advantage on small numbers of people in miiltary conflicts, would be a reasonable position in some sense. It's no less than what Western Europe did circa 1875 to Africa, the Middle East and South Asia--a brief window of serious force asymmetry opened with the repeating rifle and then the machine gun that lasted about 35 years, and that asymmetry was used to advance rapid imperial conquest. When you go back even 75 years, European forces (and American ones) enjoyed virtually no meaningful advantage over most non-Western militaries maintained by centralized states in Asia, the Middle East and Africa.

So his plan isn't ridiculous when it comes to expressing supremacy and expressing an ideology of supremacy/vengeance. It's just afterwards that's the problem--and that's what T'Challa and other Wakandans see very well, I'm sure in part because they've been observing world history so thoughtfully from behind their screen.


Yeah, he's an American in some ways but he's also a European, and in particular a Brit, or at least someone modelled on them. Because he wants Wakanda to do what Europeans did to non-white parts of the world, as you say.

He says his plan is to take control of much of the world so that "the sun never sets on the Wakandan Empire", which echoes the boast once made about the British empire.

So he is a villain, even though his motives are good.

However, the fact that the film raises questions about whether he really is bad or not - and also works as a straightforward narrative at the same time - shows how good it is.
Ironwood
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Reply #103 on: May 08, 2018, 03:10:02 PM

It really doesn't.  He's bad.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Khaldun
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Reply #104 on: May 08, 2018, 07:01:58 PM

Sure. But he's also not wrong in his feelings about what he's lived and seen. Which is the best kind of bad.
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