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Author Topic: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi  (Read 248158 times)
eldaec
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Reply #1015 on: August 29, 2018, 05:47:00 AM

How much plinkett is in that? His reviews are fine, but the schtick I can do without.

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HaemishM
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Reply #1016 on: August 29, 2018, 08:00:28 AM

The schtick gets very old - I'll have to watch that one though. I thought structure and tone were two of the main problems with the movie so it's likely a review I'll agree with.

satael
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Reply #1017 on: August 29, 2018, 08:03:37 AM

I thought this had the proper amount of Plinkett in it (and the observations were pretty good too)
Teleku
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Reply #1018 on: August 29, 2018, 08:31:55 AM

Inevitable Plinkett Review

I always like how they focus on structure and tone as that is often overlooked.  Made me re-evaluate this movie a bit.  They don't go in on all the garbage criticism that's floating around, but instead make some really good points about how a good story was in there somewhere but was completely messed up.
Yeah, pretty much hit most of the reasons I did't like it (and pointed out stuff that bugged me but I hadn't realized it when trying to think back on it).

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eldaec
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Reply #1019 on: August 29, 2018, 09:26:34 AM

I thought this had the proper amount of Plinkett in it (and the observations were pretty good too)

None?

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
HaemishM
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Reply #1020 on: August 29, 2018, 09:34:21 AM

I actually find I like Half in the Bag a little more because their schtick is pretty minimal but they still manage like 20-40 minutes out of a review of each film with some funny commentary.

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Reply #1021 on: August 29, 2018, 09:36:43 AM

I thought this had the proper amount of Plinkett in it (and the observations were pretty good too)

None?

Could you please clarify your exact preferences regarding Harry S. Plinkett over a series of at least a dozen posts?  I can't quite feel the spittle from here.

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eldaec
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Reply #1022 on: August 30, 2018, 01:26:37 AM

No need, Haemish just did it. But good to know you care.

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Phildo
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Reply #1023 on: August 30, 2018, 06:19:06 AM

Yeah, pretty much hit most of the reasons I did't like it (and pointed out stuff that bugged me but I hadn't realized it when trying to think back on it).

You didn't notice it... but your brain did.
Cyrrex
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Reply #1024 on: August 31, 2018, 05:13:47 AM

I keep trying to tell myself "hey, this was pretty good when I saw it in the theaters, not sure what all these guys are going on about".  I even bought the blu ray.  I have not, however, watched the blu ray nor do I feel a compelling need to do so.  First time this ever happened with a SW film, including the prequels.  Not that it wasn't better than the prequels, just saying I can't muster the energy to care.  So I am forced to agree with the naysayers for the most part.

Now that I typed all that, maybe I will watch it tonight.

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Threash
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Reply #1025 on: August 31, 2018, 05:28:15 AM

I liked it just fine and haven't felt the need to watch it again either. Not really sure why that should mean anything.

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Goumindong
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Reply #1026 on: September 01, 2018, 03:43:32 PM

The schtick gets very old - I'll have to watch that one though. I thought structure and tone were two of the main problems with the movie so it's likely a review I'll agree with.

Unfortunately the structure and tone he doesn’t like is that women were in it.
Abagadro
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Reply #1027 on: September 01, 2018, 04:23:36 PM

Oh for fucks sake. That has nothing to do with it.

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Samwise
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Reply #1028 on: September 01, 2018, 04:30:14 PM

Denying it only proves that you too are a sexist!

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Goumindong
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Reply #1029 on: September 01, 2018, 05:10:52 PM

Oh for fucks sake. That has nothing to do with it.

More or less yes. I can read text and subtext and that is the structure of their review.
HaemishM
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Reply #1030 on: September 01, 2018, 05:33:48 PM

The schtick gets very old - I'll have to watch that one though. I thought structure and tone were two of the main problems with the movie so it's likely a review I'll agree with.

Unfortunately the structure and tone he doesn’t like is that women were in it.

Piss off, that has nothing to do with it and frankly misses the entire goddamn point of his analysis. Which, having now watched it, was pretty cogent and spot on.

Abagadro
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Reply #1031 on: September 01, 2018, 05:37:54 PM

But SUBTEXT, man.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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Teleku
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Reply #1032 on: September 01, 2018, 07:59:06 PM

There was zero subtext of that in the review.  I don’t eve.....

I mean, he pointed out that Lea and admiral purple hair appeared to have no idea wtf they were doing and got everybody killed for no good reason.  But that was in the context of further pointing out how half assed the script writing was.

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
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Threash
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Reply #1033 on: September 02, 2018, 08:35:18 AM

The absolute deluge of "SJWs ruined Star Wars" videos I'm bombarded with daily coupled with the absolutely ridiculous "valid complaints" people have about this movie pretty much makes my default assumption that "women were in it" is the main complaint people have.

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TheWalrus
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Reply #1034 on: September 02, 2018, 11:05:36 AM

That's valid. I disagree with a lot of complaints about the film, but (especially) online when someone is raging against it, I just assume they're an asshole. If I was a betting dude, I'd be money ahead.

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HaemishM
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Reply #1035 on: September 02, 2018, 11:05:48 AM

And yet, reducing all the criticism of the movie down to that means you blind yourself to some very valid criticism of the movie that has fuckall to do with whether there were women in it.

This whole SJW/diversity bullshit that some of these goddamn incel neckbeards fuckmuffins keep spewing on the Internet is ruining any valid discussion of this fucking movie.

Threash
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Reply #1036 on: September 02, 2018, 11:23:16 AM

I'm not blinding myself to valid criticism of the movie, I had complaints about it when I first saw it too. The thing is for every single "valid criticism" of the movie you can just add "just like in every other Star Wars movie to date" at the end of it.

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Phildo
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Reply #1037 on: September 02, 2018, 11:29:18 AM

Every single Star Wars movie to date threw out the mysteries established by previous films simply to defy expectations?  This film was all about adding shades of grey where most of the previous ones had been about stark good vs evil conflict.
Goumindong
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Reply #1038 on: September 02, 2018, 12:02:15 PM

Every single Star Wars movie to date threw out the mysteries established by previous films simply to defy expectations?  This film was all about adding shades of grey where most of the previous ones had been about stark good vs evil conflict.

TLJ didn’t explain the mysteries of Star Wars... and TLJ was more a stark good vs evil plot than Empire or Return....
Threash
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Reply #1039 on: September 02, 2018, 12:04:06 PM

Every single Star Wars movie to date threw out the mysteries established by previous films simply to defy expectations?  This film was all about adding shades of grey where most of the previous ones had been about stark good vs evil conflict.

This bullshit is exactly why its hard to take complainers seriously, this is just so dumb I literally have to think its because women.

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HaemishM
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Reply #1040 on: September 02, 2018, 12:22:31 PM

Then you must have been watching a different fucking movie than me, because that was two very relevant, valid criticisms of the movie. Frankly, I'm not sure how the fuck you could watch TLJ and NOT see those two things happening - whether you liked them or not.

Goumindong
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Reply #1041 on: September 02, 2018, 12:31:24 PM

I didn’t see them explaining any mysteries and while the main protagonist is in a grey area his literary transformation rejects that grey area while the other protagonist fails in making a grey situation out of the villain.

If the films central question was “is it grey?” It’s answer to that would be “No”’ every time the heroes succeed it’s because they did something in the way opposed to the first orders methods rather than in concert with them.

I suppose you could say that the film explains some of the mysteries of the force*... but if you could tell me what that mystery was and how it was explained i would be shocked.

* probably the central mystery. How the light and dark side work.
Threash
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Reply #1042 on: September 02, 2018, 01:06:52 PM

Then you must have been watching a different fucking movie than me, because that was two very relevant, valid criticisms of the movie. Frankly, I'm not sure how the fuck you could watch TLJ and NOT see those two things happening - whether you liked them or not.

The entire point isn't that there aren't things to complain about, its that those things and worse would be completely glossed over in the old movies while this one gets nitpicked to death over every stupid little thing. So we look for a reason why this is happening, and we are constantly bombarded with that reason from every direction.

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HaemishM
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Reply #1043 on: September 02, 2018, 01:15:39 PM

The reason? The original movies pulled off what they did much better. They were better acted and amazingly, better written structurally. Not to mention that despite their flaws (and in this, I'm actually even talking about the prequels, despite them being shittier movies than TLJ), they all were pretty consistent in tone and voice. Mainly that's because one dude was behind all of them - Lucas, for all his flaws. TFA mimicked that tone pretty damn well because it was almost beat-for-beat a remake of A New Hope.

TLJ felt like the sequel to a popular series, like if Dune had been written by Frank Herbert for 6 books and on the 7th book, some rando Star Wars throwaway novel writer was brought in to do the story. Which is pretty close to what happened.

EDIT: As for dismissing criticism, it becomes pretty clear very early on in a criticism if the person doing the criticizing is coming at it from an honest point or a point of "WIMMENZ IN MAH STAR WURZ!" There are maybe 1 or 2 posters on this site that might be coming from that, and you likely know who they are.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 01:17:42 PM by HaemishM »

Goumindong
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Reply #1044 on: September 02, 2018, 02:00:23 PM

Lucas was the sole voice behind the prequels. He was not a sole voice behind the originals because there was no sole voice in the originals. Lucas didn’t even do the script on them. (He did the first draft... but like wow it was bad... just go read the original scrawl if you want an example)

By any metric that TLJ is not consistent in tone and voice then the OT were not consistent in tone and voice... except maybe Empire. They all switch between heroic fantasy and slapstick pretty heavily. (Ewoks, Hans everything he does on the deathstar, oops we flew into a giant space monster) and this is just within the movies and not between them (I’ve always known you were my sister says Luke after gloating over a sexy revenge kiss from the same person not a month prior). And to say that the tone and voice of prequels is more consistent...  just fucking wow. Phantom Menace isn’t even consistent in tone in the same shots let alone the same scene or movie.

As for acting... besides Carrie Fisher clearly not being there I don’t see it.
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Reply #1045 on: September 02, 2018, 03:26:30 PM

This whole SJW/diversity bullshit that some of these goddamn incel neckbeards fuckmuffins keep spewing on the Internet is ruining any valid discussion of this fucking movie.

Here's where I want Mahrin to pop in and tell us that duh, they're guerilla marketers and that's exactly what they're being paid to do.   Tinfoil Hat   why so serious?

Though frankly, in the modern age of Russian troll farms and President Dipshit, that stuff all seems a lot more plausible than it did a few years ago.

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Phildo
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Reply #1046 on: September 02, 2018, 04:02:23 PM

Here is a short list of mysteries that JJ Abrams set up which Rian Johnson threw out to defy audience expectations in what I felt were really unsatisfying ways.

TFA: Who are Rey's mysterious parents?  Why was she left on that planet?
TLJ: They were nobody and it doesn't matter.

TFA: Who is Lord Snoke, supreme leader of the First Order?
TLJ: Doesn't matter, he's dead and we're moving on.

TFA: How did Maz get Luke's lightsaber and what is Rey's mysterious connection to it?
TLJ: Barely even mentions Maz.  She's practically a cameo.

TFA: Who are the Knights of Ren?
TLJ: ...

Note that none of these deal with gender/diversity issues or plot holes.
Khaldun
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Reply #1047 on: September 02, 2018, 04:27:36 PM

I think this is the heart of divergent reactions to the film when you get rid of dumb trolling.

1) I was fucking delighted by the "her parents don't matter" twist. That was one of the four or five best things ever for me in Star Wars. It's right up there with Darth Vader being Luke's dad, for the same reason. It confounded expectations but also it makes a strong statement about the narrative going forward. The narrative after ESB was: this is a family drama, at its heart. The narrative after TLJ is: this is about being worthy, no matter who you are. This is about rising above a circumstance that should make you bitter and sad and instead being hopeful and strong.

2) Delighted by Snoke dying. This is: there is no ultimate evil who is behind it all. We've already discovered you can throw the Emperor down a shaft and then not that much changes. If you want liberation, justice, a better galaxy, you'll have to do better. The Old Republic fell not because of an ultimate bad guy in the end, but because its institutions and people were too weak (including the Jedi) to resist being manipulated and tricked. The idea of replaying the "throw the ultimate bad guy down a shaft" plot is pure hell. It's a huge galaxy: of course it has a decent number of predatory grifters who can manipulate the Dark Side of the Force.

3) Who the fuck cares about Maz? I'm glad to see her out of the story completely. Shit character, best discarded.

4) The Knights of Ren get about ten seconds mention in TFA. Were you really pulling that hard at yourself at the very thought of them, such that you needed them to be a big deal? I think it's pretty clear: they're 8chan, they're Kylo Ren's wanker wannabee squad who think he's all bad ass and probably have all gotten killed in comically stupid ways since the Jedi Academy Mark II burned to the ground. I mean, ok, don't worry, they're going to eventually tell the story of them, but it doesn't matter to moving the main thread forward.
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Reply #1048 on: September 02, 2018, 04:33:08 PM

Psycho.

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HaemishM
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Reply #1049 on: September 02, 2018, 06:19:02 PM

1) I was fucking delighted by the "her parents don't matter" twist.

I was actually OK with this "twist" though I do have the feeling it will be revealed to be a bluff put forward by Kylo to weaken her defenses against his manipulations. But if she's nobody, it doesn't really change her story much, only gives an explanation (or not) for why she seems to be so strong with the Force despite there being no justification for it.

Quote
2) Delighted by Snoke dying.

I'd have been fine with Snoke dying in that manner IF we'd had even the slightest idea who the fuck he was. TFA gave us nothing on him. TLJ actually did a good job of establishing some sense of menace from the character (and certainly seemed to have more competence and danger to him than the entirety of the First Order combined) and then immediately kills him off like a redshirt.

Quote
4) The Knights of Ren get about ten seconds mention in TFA. Were you really pulling that hard at yourself at the very thought of them, such that you needed them to be a big deal? I think it's pretty clear: they're 8chan, they're Kylo Ren's wanker wannabee squad who think he's all bad ass and probably have all gotten killed in comically stupid ways since the Jedi Academy Mark II burned to the ground. I mean, ok, don't worry, they're going to eventually tell the story of them, but it doesn't matter to moving the main thread forward.

Actually, it kinda did mean something to the story going forward. It meant that Ren wasn't a singular mistake on Luke's part but part of some larger movement of which Kylo became the leader.

As for the whole thing not being a family drama? Kylo Ren has killed his father, almost killed his mother and is trying to measure up to the image of his grandfather and the fractured image of failure that is his uncle. Not a family drama my ass.

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