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Author Topic: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi  (Read 37844 times)
Riggswolfe
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Reply #945 on: July 04, 2018, 04:56:31 PM

I MEAN THE JEDI AREN'T MEANT TO FUCK, HOW CAN IT BE BLOODLINES THAT SUSTAIN IT.

I MEAN.

WHAT.

STOP IT.


They're not meant to get attached. They can have sex all day long if they want. And we're explicitly told in the OT at least that the Force will be passed down through bloodlines. Frankly, if Lucas had ever read Dune, Anakin wouldn't have been a virgin birth. He'd have been the result of thousands of years of selective breeding. We'd have had a story about what happens when Paul Attreides goes bad.

I still don't know why people argue Holdo's actions require excusing?

AFAIK she is literally the only character in the film who achieved her goals as she envisages them right from her first scene. And is ultimately right about everything. You could legitimately make a Mary sue charge I guess.

If she had told Poe I imagine we'd be sat here complaining about bad exposition. She'd be stood there saying things so Poe could take no action. Poe could I suppose disagree with her? Like watching an argument between a plumber and a hairdresser about how to fit a toilet? Then poe would wander off and rebel, and we'd all wonder why the exposition scene was necessary.

She succeeded only by overcoming a mutiny and because the one person Poe trusted happened to wake up and shoot him with a stun bolt. There is zero reason for her not to tell the others what her plan is. If she had told him and he'd still rebelled because "We're just going to sit on a planet and wait for rescue?" then when she turned out to be right his lesson might have even been stronger.  Fine, he'd been demoted. But there is no reason to let him fester and believe they were just running and hoping for a miracle with no plan of action at all. That's just bad leadership. Someone else made the argument that you don't have to believe characters always act rationally but you do when you're led to believe this is a smart capable leader and Leah more or less tells us that is exactly what Holdo is.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Rendakor
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Reply #946 on: July 04, 2018, 05:08:01 PM

„Well, the Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.” Obi Wan “Ben” Kenobi.

The whole point of that speech from A new Hope and indeed the theme of TFA is that EVERYONE.can use the force not just privileged few.

There’s no force dynasty.
Counterpoint.

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eldaec
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Reply #947 on: July 04, 2018, 05:21:20 PM

There is only one example of jedi powers running in a family in the entire star wars canon.

The only reason it comes up in every film except Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, Revenge of the Sith, Rogue 1 and Solo is that the other films have two or more Skywalkers in them.




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Typhon
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Reply #948 on: July 04, 2018, 06:44:32 PM

I MEAN THE JEDI AREN'T MEANT TO FUCK, HOW CAN IT BE BLOODLINES THAT SUSTAIN IT.

I MEAN.

WHAT.

STOP IT.


psycho
Sir T
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Reply #949 on: July 04, 2018, 06:55:42 PM

I MEAN THE JEDI AREN'T MEANT TO FUCK, HOW CAN IT BE BLOODLINES THAT SUSTAIN IT.

Cloning.

Gosh, how did this open barrel of Worms get here?

"The devil...the prowde spirite...cannot endure to be mocked.” - Thomas Moore
schild
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Reply #950 on: July 04, 2018, 11:15:23 PM

I'm watching this now and commentating in discord.

This movie is garbage. I haven't really read any of this thread but it changes not a single bit of my long running opinion that this is the most overrated franchise in movie history.

Also Mark Hamill is the worst actor alive.
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #951 on: July 04, 2018, 11:25:35 PM

I'm watching this now and commentating in discord.

This movie is garbage. I haven't really read any of this thread but it changes not a single bit of my long running opinion that this is the most overrated franchise in movie history.

Also Mark Hamill is the worst actor alive.
And yet he manages to be the best thing in TLJ.

--Dave
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 11:41:21 PM by MahrinSkel »

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schild
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Reply #952 on: July 04, 2018, 11:39:43 PM

I'm watching this now and commentating in discord.

This movie is garbage. I haven't really read any of this thread but it changes not a single bit of my long running opinion that this is the most overrated franchise in movie history.

Also Mark Hamill is the worst actor alive.
And yet he manages to be the best thing in TLJ.

--Dabe

Dabe,

The rocks are the best thing in this movie.
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #953 on: July 04, 2018, 11:43:27 PM

No.

No, they're not.


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schild
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Reply #954 on: July 05, 2018, 12:01:32 AM

I clearly spoke too soon.
schild
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Reply #955 on: July 05, 2018, 01:08:09 AM

Wow

You know, I can at least grok why people liked star wars back in the 70s. Empire is still watchable. But in an era of constant Marvel one-upsmanship, this fucking franchise just doesn't have a place. The character suck. The world sucks. The villains suck. The powers suck. The ships suck. Everything sucks. Might as well say DC COMICS at the beginning of each movie.

Stop chasing the dragon people, this shit is fucking donezo. It's only for eight years olds with no standards now.
schild
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Reply #956 on: July 05, 2018, 01:12:54 AM

Also

Using Del Toro just to say "both sides are the same" makes me want to fight Rian Johnson

Casino planet was worse than Gungan World.
Uppity Tortuga.

god this movie was shit

also, having read back and seeing some of you say this was Hamill's best performance

COULD THE BAR BE LOWER

he didn't even act goddamn (and pretty sure he can't)
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 01:18:02 AM by schild »
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #957 on: July 05, 2018, 03:09:12 AM

He can when he's doing voice work.
HaemishM
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Reply #958 on: July 05, 2018, 09:03:35 AM

Using Del Toro just to say "both sides are the same" makes me want to fight Rian Johnson

I'm with you there. He's not only wasting a great actor on a bit part, he's also doing it to make a "whataboutism" argument about the Star Wars mythology when the entirety of the series has been about light v dark/good v evil rather than various shades of gray.

I disagree with you about Hammill though - I think he's a good actor but when your entire direction is "do the opposite of everything this established character would do," there's not much chance of great acting.

Sir T
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Reply #959 on: July 05, 2018, 09:37:24 AM

Hamill is a fine actor. He's no Olivier, but I've never had a problem with him when I've seen him in other things. And do you have to be reminded of the amount of fine actors that acted like dehydrated planks in the Prequels? You need a great director to get a great performance out of an actor that hates every second of what they are doing.

"The devil...the prowde spirite...cannot endure to be mocked.” - Thomas Moore
schild
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Reply #960 on: July 05, 2018, 10:00:37 AM

Hamill is an arguably fine voice actor. Strip that out and I don't know what the fuck y'all talking about. What acting?
Sir T
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Reply #961 on: July 05, 2018, 10:24:31 AM



 Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

"The devil...the prowde spirite...cannot endure to be mocked.” - Thomas Moore
schild
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Reply #962 on: July 05, 2018, 10:28:52 AM

Making my point for me I see.
HaemishM
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Reply #963 on: July 05, 2018, 10:38:08 AM

I thought he did a great job as the Trickster on both versions of the Flash TV show but since that was just a live-action version of his Joker voiceover work, I know you won't count it either.

schild
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Reply #964 on: July 05, 2018, 10:44:40 AM

I thought he did a great job as the Trickster on both versions of the Flash TV show but since that was just a live-action version of his Joker voiceover work, I know you won't count it either.

this is the only trickster



i didn't even know he was in the flash tv show, but considering he's basically built for DC Comics BadStuff, I believe you when you say he was good in it. When you're surrounded by bad, shit can float to the top.
Sir T
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Reply #965 on: July 05, 2018, 11:25:04 AM

Oh. I was wondering about that. I saw a youtube of him doing the trickster as I was browsing the Flash videos, and I was wondering what character he was playing.

"The devil...the prowde spirite...cannot endure to be mocked.” - Thomas Moore
Khaldun
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Reply #966 on: July 05, 2018, 11:40:06 AM

I agree that Del Toro was wasted and really that the entire we-need-a-slicer casino-planet was the weakest part of the movie.

On the rest of it, I feel like asking "how did Holdo get promoted" or "how is it that the First Order is powerful" is really just an example of my earlier point about wanting things to be reasonable or logical in a way that's honestly kind of weird and unreal. You tell me how many generals and admirals in the US armed forces over the last fifty years rose to the top by being better and smarter and more qualified to command people than anyone else, and who having been promoted did everything more or less correctly. There's a few (though even some of them, like Colin Powell, eventually fucked up when they got asked to do something even more) but not a lot. And that's the most powerful and well-resourced military more or less in the history of the human species, not a ragtag offshoot rebel faction that's apparently disdained or persecuted *even by the former Rebel government* at the point where TFA started. Take a look at weird insurgent splinter movements that don't even get along with the rebels they came from and you tell me how invariably rational and reasonable you expect them to be on everything and how rigorous their standards for command qualifications are going to be. As for the First Order, I mean, fuck, this is a galaxy where political power is pretty fucking hard to figure out ever. We start with a Republic that we're told is THOUSANDS of years old but it's nearly impossible to figure out how it governed much of anything at the scale of most of a galaxy. Considering how full of life this galaxy is, the Senate chamber that we see a few times should have to have tens of thousands or more chairs to represent every planetary delegation. So ok, it gets replaced by an Empire in a coup d'etat, and eventually we hear that the Emperor is going to rule through direct military decree. How does that work? Check out many real-world empires control even their most far-flung outposts through direct military authority: just about fucking zip. Also check-out how many real-world empires are run by ruthlessly efficient and competent military officers: also nearly zip. Most of the time, they work because they're sitting on some real estate that generates resources and power even if the local rulers are in-bred mental defectives, because the nearby real estate is pretty marginal and/or difficult to transverse, and maybe because some clever fellow in the empire has come up with a better catapult or iron weapons or repeating rifles. At least some of the time, an empire doesn't actually rule much of anything--its soldiers come by and collect "taxes" (rob and rape the locals) but otherwise the locals pretty much rule themselves.

I really don't understand why some of you need worlds in your fantasy universes that actually run more logically or reasonably than the real human world has, or people who make consistently better decisions collectively and individually than real people do.
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Reply #967 on: July 05, 2018, 11:46:53 AM

i don't know what the fuck you just said but

i don't need fantasy universes to be logical or reasonable

i need them to not be garbage

this was garbage
TheWalrus
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Reply #968 on: July 05, 2018, 11:50:46 AM

No it wasn't. You are. awesome, for real

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HaemishM
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Reply #969 on: July 05, 2018, 11:51:35 AM

It's not about being more logical or consistent than the real world, it's about being fucking logical AT ALL.

The First Order does not make sense EVEN within the context of Star Wars because they have never been portrayed as competent in any form that movie goers can see. I keep repeating "SHOW DON'T TELL." We are told the First Order has the power of the Empire but everything we are shown makes them look like they are less competent than the "Stormtroopers who can't hit the broad side of a barn" from the original trilogy, and that's from their leadership on down. That whole Hux on the bridge getting punked by Poe Dameron is a perfect example.

Khaldun
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Reply #970 on: July 05, 2018, 12:01:06 PM

As opposed to a supersecret military asset where an enemy droid is able to easily hack into its most sensitive systems, where two guys are able to get into a secure prison area without providing identification of any kind with an alleged prisoner who has no record of being on-board, where a crew of tens of thousands of soldiers are unable to catch up to four fugitives and get trapped by their own doors, where supposedly deadly soldiers can't hit a target that's standing still with no cover. Where said military asset is basically unprepared to deal with an attack by the exact kinds of ships that the major known adversary of the asset's owners are known to favor.

Where the highly trained soldiers get beaten by teddy bears with rocks and seem fundamentally unaware of the existence of these creatures despite situating a vitally important forcefield base on the moon where they live. The base that's central to their leader's plan. Where the leader only brings a small proportion of his total fleet to a trap he has set and personally puts himself at risk.

I mean, it's all pulp, none of it makes much logical or reasonable sense. Almost none of the characters act in a way that's particularly complex or consistent.

I think ultimately you guys feel like if you're going to root for the good guys, they need to be reasonable by your own particular standards of what you imagine reason to be; and if you're going to fear the bad guys, they need to be good at being bad, at least the leaders are. I don't think any of you would have minded Hux getting punked by someone if he were a disposable admiral who got force-choked by the head villain right after fucking up.
Polysorbate80
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Reply #971 on: July 05, 2018, 12:15:39 PM

They've made Hux just flakey enough now that I'd appreciate some backstory on him, as to why he's in charge of things.  Even if it's just an Elon Musk-ish "I'm the money, I'm in charge and don't argue with my goofy-ass decisions" kind of thing.  I can totally accept that level of evil incompetence, because that's the kind of shit we get IRL.
TheWalrus
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Reply #972 on: July 05, 2018, 12:28:52 PM

Hux failed up. That's easy.

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Reply #973 on: July 05, 2018, 12:41:40 PM

as far as i can tell the entire universe is people that failed up

including and especially luke
TheWalrus
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Reply #974 on: July 05, 2018, 12:46:19 PM

Isn't there some Japanese cartoon you should be watching?

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schild
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Reply #975 on: July 05, 2018, 12:54:40 PM

i don't understand the reference

is there some japanese cartoon i should be watching?
TheWalrus
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Reply #976 on: July 05, 2018, 01:05:06 PM

There's a star wars one. :D

Paelos: Somebody find that post where I declared Seattle dead, because those fuckers are NFL cockroaches in the NFC.
Goumindong
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Reply #977 on: July 05, 2018, 01:05:16 PM

How, in the age of Trump, can you suggest it’s unrealistic that incompetent fascists rule the Galaxy?
MediumHigh
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Reply #978 on: July 05, 2018, 01:34:44 PM

How, in the age of Trump, can you suggest it’s unrealistic that incompetent fascists rule the Galaxy?

Without an election process actually we can. 

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Sir T
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Reply #979 on: July 05, 2018, 01:52:43 PM

where supposedly deadly soldiers can't hit a target that's standing still with no cover.

Actually they were missing deliberately. "They let us go," remember?

Quote
Where the highly trained soldiers get beaten by teddy bears with rocks

Nope, the Ewoks got the shit kicked out of them. Its funny, but most people cant remember that the Ewoks LOST that battle.

Quote
Where the leader only brings a small proportion of his total fleet to a trap he has set and personally puts himself at risk.

He brought enough to beat the Rebel fleet. and to remain undetected. What was he going to do, strip the entire galaxy of ships? That would have blown the plan right there as there would have been no way to keep that kind of mass ship movement quiet. Hell, its said flat out that the Empire knew that the Rebels were massing. Plus, the Emperor was an arrogant son of a Bitch. That was part of his character.

"The devil...the prowde spirite...cannot endure to be mocked.” - Thomas Moore
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