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Title: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Shannow on January 23, 2017, 11:52:49 AM
Cause we have a title now. Let the countdown to the countdown to the teaser of the trailer teaser begin.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: calapine on January 23, 2017, 12:00:59 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C23rLbZUUAEBl4N.jpg)


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on January 23, 2017, 12:51:14 PM
But... who IS the last Jedi?  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: 01101010 on January 23, 2017, 12:52:20 PM
But... who IS the last Jedi?  :why_so_serious:

Jar-Jar.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on January 23, 2017, 01:05:54 PM
So like, I guess Luke is probably going to die at the end this time?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ruvaldt on January 23, 2017, 01:30:07 PM
Jedi can be plural.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: 01101010 on January 23, 2017, 02:32:11 PM
So like, I guess Luke is probably going to die at the end this time?

At this point, are there really any Jedi left? Luke was the last trained Jedi and even that was not full training. So did he have enough training to actually be capable of training a padawan? Or is Jedi sorta fluid in how it works... more like guidelines than rules? The lore I know only comes from the movies, so that is where I am coming at this.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Torinak on January 23, 2017, 02:48:39 PM
In RoTJ, it was clear that there was only a single Jedi left (Luke), and that he didn't even really complete his training. Obi-wan and Yoda were the only fully trained Jedi who survived the Clone Wars (not counting Anakin, because Vader), and they were blue glowies.

Maybe they're going to have Luke die, then unveil New Jedi(tm). The new training process can be called NGE, and it'll be a smashing success bringing tons of new padawans into the Order.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Rishathra on January 23, 2017, 03:06:04 PM
I'm hoping that by "Last Jedi" they mean the last of an antiquated, outdated order that became completely ossified and worthless before it was mostly wiped out by a Dark-side user with a grudge.  Speaking of which, it seemed to be an order that regularly spawned individuals who rejected the order's principles so hard, they went full Dark-side and generally fucked things up on a galactic scale.  Even when there were only two left, one of them felt that for the other to graduate from student status, he must confront one of the most powerful Dark-side users in the galaxy.

Hopefully, with the last of the Jedi, the good folk of the galaxy might have a chance to form a healthier relationship with the light side of the Force.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: 01101010 on January 23, 2017, 03:14:22 PM
In RoTJ, it was clear that there was only a single Jedi left (Luke), and that he didn't even really complete his training. Obi-wan and Yoda were the only fully trained Jedi who survived the Clone Wars (not counting Anakin, because Vader), and they were blue glowies.

Maybe they're going to have Luke die, then unveil New Jedi(tm). The new training process can be called NGE, and it'll be a smashing success bringing tons of new padawans into the Order.

I.... see what you did there.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Reg on January 23, 2017, 04:06:00 PM
Why can't the blue glowies finish Luke's training or even train some Padawans?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Merusk on January 23, 2017, 04:10:47 PM
They can. Blue Glowies staying around to teach and Holocrons are canon now based on Rebels. Luke completed his training after defeating Vader, but fighting Vader was his trial which let him become a "Jedi Knight" as Yoda said in ROTJ.

Last of the Jedi is probably plural. If not it implies a big focus on Luke who IS the last of the Jedi and that's not where they're taking the franchise. It'll be Luke/ Rey and possibly others. Kylo is the head of an Order, the Knights of Ren, who are Dark-Side users but not, apparently, Sith. Because there are only ever Two Sith and Snoke was around to witness Palpatine's rise and fall. (Also canon according to the novels)  Unless Luke and Rey are going to take on the Knights and Snoke by themselves, I anticipate more Jedi showing up.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on January 23, 2017, 05:44:14 PM
Reminder that Kanan is still around from Rebels.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 23, 2017, 06:46:53 PM
I have a sneaking suspicion that this simply means that Force wielders on both sides are giving up on forming galactic-scale organizations, which might be for the best anyway.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Speedy Cerviche on January 23, 2017, 11:53:01 PM
I'm hoping that by "Last Jedi" they mean the last of an antiquated, outdated order that became completely ossified and worthless before it was mostly wiped out by a Dark-side user with a grudge.  Speaking of which, it seemed to be an order that regularly spawned individuals who rejected the order's principles so hard, they went full Dark-side and generally fucked things up on a galactic scale.  Even when there were only two left, one of them felt that for the other to graduate from student status, he must confront one of the most powerful Dark-side users in the galaxy.

Hopefully, with the last of the Jedi, the good folk of the galaxy might have a chance to form a healthier relationship with the light side of the Force.

This... The first Jedi didn't have formal training, they purely explored and channeled the force as they went along and passed on the knowledge.  I doubt their intention was to create a bureaucratic and stagnant order.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Kail on January 24, 2017, 01:18:54 AM
I'm hoping that by "Last Jedi" they mean the last of an antiquated, outdated order that became completely ossified and worthless before it was mostly wiped out by a Dark-side user with a grudge.
This... The first Jedi didn't have formal training, they purely explored and channeled the force as they went along and passed on the knowledge.  I doubt their intention was to create a bureaucratic and stagnant order.

That seems really unlikely, given that the Jedi have generally been portrayed in the most positive light possible in the movies.  It would be like trying to do a Star Trek movie that establishes that really, the Federation was a bunch of intolerant fascist zealots so they are overthrown and immediately replaced with the Schmederation, a new government which ACTUALLY upholds the ideals that the Federation claimed to value.  I mean, you could do it, I guess, but what would be the point?

And if they DID decide to replace the idea of Jedi with something else, it wouldn't lead to some era of galactic enlightenment and peace.  See: the name of this franchise.  They can't do a movie where people just sit around and talk about how great things are now and then the credits roll.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Speedy Cerviche on January 24, 2017, 08:39:59 AM
Does the Jedi Order even exist anymore? I guess Luke tried to restart it but his nephew went dark and that seemed to be the end of that.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on January 24, 2017, 09:41:14 AM
We don't really know what happened with Luke and Ren. I'm thinking that Luke has removed himself from the universe because he realizes that the Jedi are too powerful a force to be acting on the galaxy, what with just two of them destroying the system of galactic government and causing a giant fucking war. Rey will likely have to convince him to come out of retirement to unfuck the damage caused by people trying to emulate his father.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 24, 2017, 10:25:01 AM
I don't think Lucas meant to do this, but the prequels really don't portray the Jedi in the most positive light, actually. They're inflexible, arrogant, kind of stupid. They stick to an anti-emotion creed to the point that they can't sense some of the most basic feelings motivating galactic society. They are easily manipulated into becoming soldiers in a dumb, fake war that's intended to weaken the Republic. They have don't actually stick to the ascetic attitude they pretend to have. Since the Clone Wars TV series is now canon, whether Lucas meant it or not, the canon itself has gone on to underscore this portrayal--that the Jedi were rigid, remote, abstract in their understanding of right and wrong. Good in a fight but kind of lousy in everything else.

Maybe warrior monks are better off when they have lots of different philosophies and orders rather than two manichean megachurches. I really hope that's where the overall story of the Force in the saga is going--it would make the prophecy of Luke/Anakin bringing "balance" to the Force more meaningful. (One wonders why the Jedi around the time of The Phantom Menace found a prophecy of a "rebalancing" of the Force at all hopeful or interesting, considering that as far as they knew, there were no dark side wielders of note in the galaxy, the Jedi were totally in control, and all was well. Perhaps they were more aware of the stagnant character of the Jedi Order than they cared to admit.)


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Malakili on January 24, 2017, 10:36:11 AM
Palpatine was just so strong with the force he was clouding everything, or something.

If you ask a 10 year old what they loved about Jedi in the original star wars and what they wanted to see more of, I'm almost 100% sure they say long periods of stilted dialog about space politics that don't ultimately matter.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sky on January 24, 2017, 11:26:45 AM
Bringing balance to the Force just meant killing down all the Jedi to balance out the two Sith. Prophecy fulfilled: 2 Sith, 2 Jedi.

If Luke brings about the New Jedi Order, he throws it off kilter again, depending on how the Knights of Ren shakes out. Would be nice to see Kylo mature and turn that into a modern Sith Academy kinda thing. Remember how whiny and emo Luke was in ANH?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Samwise on January 24, 2017, 01:11:28 PM
Maybe warrior monks are better off when they have lots of different philosophies and orders rather than two manichean megachurches. I really hope that's where the overall story of the Force in the saga is going

The Donnie Yen character in Rogue One, as a Force-wielding mystic who is not in any way connected to the Jedi Order, lends some support to that. 


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Speedy Cerviche on January 24, 2017, 01:56:57 PM
I would bet Finn goes in that kind of direction too since he seems to have (light side) force sensitivity (his intuitive positive morality and also less subtlety fighting decently well with Luke's lightsaber, twice)  but probably isn't going to join Rey at Jedi school so I am guessing in whatever he ends up doing he taps into that some more.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Yegolev on January 24, 2017, 02:01:27 PM
Which of these theories will give us the most toys?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sky on January 24, 2017, 02:21:20 PM
Which of these theories will give us the most toys?
dude it's all about the Anovos Knights of Ren full battle armor


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Mandella on January 24, 2017, 02:53:36 PM
Bringing balance to the Force just meant killing down all the Jedi to balance out the two Sith. Prophecy fulfilled: 2 Sith, 2 Jedi.

If Luke brings about the New Jedi Order, he throws it off kilter again, depending on how the Knights of Ren shakes out. Would be nice to see Kylo mature and turn that into a modern Sith Academy kinda thing. Remember how whiny and emo Luke was in ANH?

You're probably just being snarky (and nothing wrong with that) but I'll be the guy that brings up the fact that Lucas never meant "balance" in the Force to mean equal numbers between the Light Side and Dark Side. A balanced Force was the good Force -- the Light Side. Unbalanced Force was the Dark Side.

Now Lucas takes a lot of crap, but I think this was the best interpretation -- balance was an ethical judgement, not some autistic overconcern with numbers.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on January 24, 2017, 03:11:12 PM
I have no idea what Lucas meant, but the idea that were literally a total of 2 sith at any point in time always seemed idiotic to me.

The one line of canon dialog that supports it would be interpreted by any sane person as "Sith come in pairs".


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on January 24, 2017, 04:07:22 PM
Said it before and I'll say it again.  Rey trains with Luke, ends up fighting Ren and ultimately killing him(maybe because Ren kills Luke) and going darkside.  Finn becomes a Jedi and at the end redeems Rey.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Malakili on January 24, 2017, 04:13:49 PM
Said it before and I'll say it again.  Rey trains with Luke, ends up fighting Ren and ultimately killing him(maybe because Ren kills Luke) and going darkside.  Finn becomes a Jedi and at the end redeems Rey.

I think this is highly likely, but it'd be fine if we didn't do another jedi turns darkside and then gets redeemed story too.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Trippy on January 24, 2017, 04:25:20 PM
Or how about Kylo Ren and Rey are (half?) brother and sister? :awesome_for_real:

Has to be some sort of familial reveal for a proper Star Wars retelling.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ginaz on January 24, 2017, 04:37:02 PM
Or how about Kylo Ren and Rey are (half?) brother and sister? :awesome_for_real:

Has to be some sort of familial reveal for a proper Star Wars retelling.


I got the impression that Rey was Luke's daughter, making Ren her cousin.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on January 24, 2017, 06:17:59 PM
Bringing balance to the Force just meant killing down all the Jedi to balance out the two Sith. Prophecy fulfilled: 2 Sith, 2 Jedi.

If Luke brings about the New Jedi Order, he throws it off kilter again, depending on how the Knights of Ren shakes out. Would be nice to see Kylo mature and turn that into a modern Sith Academy kinda thing. Remember how whiny and emo Luke was in ANH?

You're probably just being snarky (and nothing wrong with that) but I'll be the guy that brings up the fact that Lucas never meant "balance" in the Force to mean equal numbers between the Light Side and Dark Side. A balanced Force was the good Force -- the Light Side. Unbalanced Force was the Dark Side.

Now Lucas takes a lot of crap, but I think this was the best interpretation -- balance was an ethical judgement, not some autistic overconcern with numbers.

Yeah, in an interview Lucas describes the Dark side as a cancer on the Force and says the Chosen One is meant to remove that cancer, thus "restoring balance." I think it helps with his thinking on this if you look at Jedi and the "light side" as just "the Force" and not "the Light side". Properly used it is more or less neutral.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Kail on January 24, 2017, 10:26:55 PM
I don't think Lucas meant to do this, but the prequels really don't portray the Jedi in the most positive light, actually. They're inflexible, arrogant, kind of stupid.

Compared to who?  The only Jedi we really hear a lot from in the movies are Windu, Yoda, and Obi-Wan, maybe Qui-Gon.  Windu thinks the government is kind of corrupt and untrustworthy, and he's right.  Yoda thinks training Anakin would be a disaster, and he's right.  Obi-Wan is practically the prototypical Wise Old Teacher character.  You have to do some serious reading between the lines to come up with the Jedi being stupid considering that they're pulling pretty hard on every "wise old monk" trope in the book.  And in some settings that might be justified, but Star Wars has generally been less about subtle innuendo and more about Good Guys versus Bad Guys, and the Jedi have generally been solidly in the "good guys" box for that.  If the only sin they've committed has been getting beaten then sure, I guess it proves they're not invincible, but I have a hard time putting too much blame on them for falling victim to whatever Palpatine's idiotic plan was since if he failed there would be no movie.

I don't know where you're getting this "the Jedi Council is stagnant" idea from since I don't think it's ever mentioned in the movies.  They're monks, not pop singers, nobody cares if they sing the same song for over a thousand generations.  And as for being out of touch, the Jedi NEED to be emotionally distant since when they're not, they commit some of the most horrifying atrocities the galaxy has seen.  When they get overwhelmed with negative emotions, they turn in to rage fueled killing machines, and when they get overwhelmed with positive emotions, Hayden Christiensen has to try to act.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on January 25, 2017, 08:30:27 AM
Said it before and I'll say it again.  Rey trains with Luke, ends up fighting Ren and ultimately killing him(maybe because Ren kills Luke) and going darkside.  Finn becomes a Jedi and at the end redeems Rey.

I'm hoping it is at least "Finn does not become a Jedi and somehow redeems Rey".

People need to stop becoming Jedi all the damn time. Han Solo was cooler than Luke Skywalker. Xwings and TIE fighters are cooler than lightsabres.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sky on January 25, 2017, 08:36:39 AM
in an interview Lucas
Lucas is a bloviated bullshitter and can't be trusted with his revisionist history of Star Wars canon.

No matter what happens, we're in a much better place with him marginalized. One thing the EU did many times over is explain the Force in a better way than that moron. SWTOR alone is a bajillion light years better at explaining the light and dark sides of the Force than anything Lucas 'masterminded'.

I've been reading a bunch of historical stuff (both some online articles friends link and the new McQuarrie book) and it really highlights just how completely full of shit Lucas was (and is to a much larger degree now).


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 25, 2017, 02:24:33 PM
Not a single one of the Jedi grasps the least bit of what's going on in the politics of the Republic from the first second of the prequels until Anakin is stabbing younglings. They're only mildly puzzled and surprisingly sanguine about hearing that one of their own apparently ordered an army of clones made, and they hop into battle alongside the clones with very few questions about what's going on. But they're not guys sitting way off to the side of things, they're occupying prime real estate in the heart of the capital of a huge galactic state, they have a prominent place in military and security policy-making. They have worldly power without much in the way of worldly smarts about anything. The prequels suck as far as giving a textured sense of Anakin's doubts, but the in-canon Clone Wars series makes clear that Anakin has some legitimate reasons to doubt the Order's overall direction, and that he's not the only Jedi who is worried or frustrated. Qui-Gon was on the outs with the Order for unspecified reasons; Count Dooku left the order before becoming a Sith, or so it appears. Etc.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Trippy on January 25, 2017, 02:34:51 PM
Yoda makes the offhand comment in one of the prequels that the Dark Side is clouding their ability to "see" what's really going on.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Samwise on January 25, 2017, 03:09:54 PM
There was also a comment about "our ability to use the Force is diminished" and that being a secret amongst the Jedi.  They were losing their mojo and they didn't know why but they weren't going to tell anyone else about it because it'd weaken their political position.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on January 26, 2017, 05:03:47 AM
in an interview Lucas
Lucas is a bloviated bullshitter and can't be trusted with his revisionist history of Star Wars canon.

No matter what happens, we're in a much better place with him marginalized. One thing the EU did many times over is explain the Force in a better way than that moron. SWTOR alone is a bajillion light years better at explaining the light and dark sides of the Force than anything Lucas 'masterminded'.

I've been reading a bunch of historical stuff (both some online articles friends link and the new McQuarrie book) and it really highlights just how completely full of shit Lucas was (and is to a much larger degree now).

When you get right down to it the scenes with Yoda in Empire are the only necessary source material for what the force is.

Neither ANH, RotJ waste any time on it, nor does Rogue or tFA. Lucas was completely mad by Phantom Menace.

This film is clearly going to lean on the mysticism a bit more and will have to talk about the force, but my hope is Johnson takes the same approach he did with time travel in Looper - have a Basil Exposition moment that says clearly 'these are the rules relevant to the situation - don' t waste your fucking time - move on'.

The force needs no more explanation than Yoda has already provided. 


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ironwood on January 26, 2017, 05:24:37 AM
That line in Looper was the most elegant handwave in the history of ever.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sir T on January 26, 2017, 07:14:26 AM
I don't think Lucas meant to do this, but the prequels really don't portray the Jedi in the most positive light, actually. They're inflexible, arrogant, kind of stupid. They stick to an anti-emotion creed to the point that they can't sense some of the most basic feelings motivating galactic society.

That's just becasue EVERYONE in the prequels could not display emotion and was kind of stupid, not to mention creepy.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on January 26, 2017, 08:40:28 AM
in an interview Lucas
Lucas is a bloviated bullshitter and can't be trusted with his revisionist history of Star Wars canon.

No matter what happens, we're in a much better place with him marginalized. One thing the EU did many times over is explain the Force in a better way than that moron. SWTOR alone is a bajillion light years better at explaining the light and dark sides of the Force than anything Lucas 'masterminded'.

I've been reading a bunch of historical stuff (both some online articles friends link and the new McQuarrie book) and it really highlights just how completely full of shit Lucas was (and is to a much larger degree now).

Lucas was definitely full of shit about a lot of things. "I have 9 stories all written out." But this interview was given while the Prequels were in production. It was his intentions at the time. I think "bringing Balance to the Force" was a confusing turn of phrase but it does make sense if you remember that the Force has more in common with Eastern Philosphies than Western. The Dark side is a very negative force and was tipping the scales, particularly with Palpatine's machinations.

We'll have to disagree on the EU though. The books went from good (Thrawn trilogy, the X-wing novels) to bad (most everything else) to awful (Keven J. Anderson, the Vong and everything afterwards.). The authors got caught up in grey jedi bullshit towards the end and the best thing Disney did was immediately clearing the slate on that stuff and relegating it to "Legends".


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Merusk on January 26, 2017, 08:45:31 AM
100%  The Grey Force was largely bullshit by adults who feel morality is grey and so all stories must be. Ignoring that "Bad Guys" and "Good Guys" and "Good Guys who have to act bad" are tropes from a pulpy action science-fiction history for teens with no need to be enmeshed with more adult, modern themes.

Sometimes you just outgrow a thing and should move on rather than trying to change it to suit who you are now.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 26, 2017, 02:19:10 PM
Even moralistic pulp stories benefit from ambiguous figures who might or might not be on the side of the angels. That's even true in kid stuff. It's even true in Star Wars: one of the heroes is a smuggler who stone-cold murdered a bounty hunter who was after him.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sir T on January 26, 2017, 02:28:21 PM
GREEBO SHOT FIRST!!! [/lucas]


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Merusk on January 26, 2017, 02:49:01 PM
Even moralistic pulp stories benefit from ambiguous figures who might or might not be on the side of the angels. That's even true in kid stuff. It's even true in Star Wars: one of the heroes is a smuggler who stone-cold murdered a bounty hunter who was after him.


In Star Wars those ambiguous figures remained on the edge and weren't the central story or the moral focus. Also, they "have a heart of gold" and "do the right thing" in the end. Han's return when a truly ambiguous self-serving 'grey' figure would have said, "Fuck those guys I've got to save my own goddamn neck."

It was also set-up such that the ambiguity wasn't wholly there because there was no real "Grey" in Star Wars from the start. Just good guys in bad spots or bad guys making things worse.

Greedo was clearly (even before the SE) a 'bad guy.' We weren't set up as if he was just there to talk to or intimidate Han. It was clearly established "bad guy who's gonna straight-up murder this dude right here." Han was just a good guy in a bad spot, we just didn't know it until later.

Lando? Nope, good guy in a bad spot. Does the right thing in the end, was only in a tight spot because it was sell-out one guy or have all the people he's responsible for murdered.

We don't even get a marginally ambiguous character in Jedi.

It's always been a universe with a much more simple morality than people wanted it to be.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 26, 2017, 08:17:11 PM
Sigh.

Sure. I am not saying Star Wars (even Rogue One, in very interesting ways!) is meant to make you doubt who to root for, in the way of some morally ambiguous stories. But it is a universe big enough for people who are "good" in a non-rigid way. Fuck, the Kurosawa stuff that had Lucas creaming his shorts had characters like that. It's very common even in basically black-hat white-hat stories to have characters who are:

a) scoundrels and criminals of a minor sort, but basically good
b) tricksters who are basically good but who can do some mischief
c) people who are profoundly sensual (drunks, sexpots, addicts) who are basically good
d) people who are undisciplined or undermotivated who are basically good
e) people who are burned out or cynical who are basically good
f) people who have done something very bad in the past but for good or misguided reasons as they saw it who are basically good

This is a fucking staple of much good-bad melodrama to have such characters. Their presence is not the same as having characters who are like real-life grownups who are not really good or evil or anything so simple.

The Jedi/Force story is clearly big enough to contain the presence of such characters. Samurai dramas and Westerns have them in huge numbers--people looking to earn redemption, people who have a heart of gold underneath the cynicism, people who are stone-cold killers but who follow a hidden moral code, people who are inexplicably strong fighters even though they drink and whore a lot--these are archetypes of heroic fictions built around good and evil. There is nothing in Star Wars that says, "Oh my no, please not here" for that kind of thing.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on January 26, 2017, 08:43:10 PM
100%  The Grey Force was largely bullshit by adults who feel morality is grey and so all stories must be. Ignoring that "Bad Guys" and "Good Guys" and "Good Guys who have to act bad" are tropes from a pulpy action science-fiction history for teens with no need to be enmeshed with more adult, modern themes.

Sometimes you just outgrow a thing and should move on rather than trying to change it to suit who you are now.

I never felt there was anything wrong with having grey/ambiguous force users like those in kotor2, after all, many truths we hold dear depend very much on our point of view. The problem was all the damn explaning that went on. Hours and hours of worthless dialog.

There's the force.
Some guy found a connection that is not of the light or the dark.
Fine.
NOW STOP TALKING ABOUT THE SUPERNATURAL PLUMBING.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Surlyboi on January 26, 2017, 10:02:55 PM
Maybe warrior monks are better off when they have lots of different philosophies and orders rather than two manichean megachurches. I really hope that's where the overall story of the Force in the saga is going

The Donnie Yen character in Rogue One, as a Force-wielding mystic who is not in any way connected to the Jedi Order, lends some support to that. 

Chirrut Îmwe was not a force use, per-se. Just a blind guy with abilities enhanced due to his blindness and a tool of the Force.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on January 26, 2017, 10:50:41 PM
Maybe warrior monks are better off when they have lots of different philosophies and orders rather than two manichean megachurches. I really hope that's where the overall story of the Force in the saga is going

The Donnie Yen character in Rogue One, as a Force-wielding mystic who is not in any way connected to the Jedi Order, lends some support to that. 

Chirrut Îmwe was not a force use, per-se. Just a blind guy with abilities enhanced due to his blindness and a tool of the Force.

Well that's bullshit.  Nowhere is it said you need to be a jedi to "use the force" or even be a force user.  Jedi were just found and trained but a galaxy is a big fucking place and for every forse user found and trained as a jedi there had to have been dozens that just never got trained.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on January 27, 2017, 02:38:03 AM
He's a good example of how you do it right.

 - Here's a guy.  He's awesome.
 - Is it the force? Probably, sounds believable in world.
 - How does that work? Use your fucking imagination we're telling this story not pausing for a lecture on biodynamics.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on January 27, 2017, 09:29:48 AM
Trying to explain the Force is just one of the fuckups the prequels brought us.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 27, 2017, 12:01:55 PM
Yeah. "Surrounds us, penetrates us, binds the galaxy together" is plenty good enough. Yoda is right on the line of too much in ESB, it's fine, but no more than that. To me, if we'd gotten to the prequels and found that the Jedi Knights were a loose band of people who mostly hung out in places far away from the center of power, and went around like vagabonds doing good stuff as they individually saw fit, that would have been really appealing--and it would still have been easy to explain how they got wiped out--because they weren't really paying attention to the rise of a politician who was secretly a Sith who started spreading propaganda against them and then started having them hunted down. Instead they were like a group of super-elite special forces soldiers who were deeply intertwined with the government, which makes their cluelessness about events look really bad.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Mandella on January 27, 2017, 03:18:41 PM
Super-elite special forces soldiers who also casually used their mind control super powers on civilians in the course of a routine days work.

Honestly, I thought in the prequels they came off rather KGBish...


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on January 28, 2017, 12:52:56 AM
Sigh.

Sure. I am not saying Star Wars (even Rogue One, in very interesting ways!) is meant to make you doubt who to root for, in the way of some morally ambiguous stories. But it is a universe big enough for people who are "good" in a non-rigid way. Fuck, the Kurosawa stuff that had Lucas creaming his shorts had characters like that. It's very common even in basically black-hat white-hat stories to have characters who are:

a) scoundrels and criminals of a minor sort, but basically good
b) tricksters who are basically good but who can do some mischief
c) people who are profoundly sensual (drunks, sexpots, addicts) who are basically good
d) people who are undisciplined or undermotivated who are basically good
e) people who are burned out or cynical who are basically good
f) people who have done something very bad in the past but for good or misguided reasons as they saw it who are basically good

This is a fucking staple of much good-bad melodrama to have such characters. Their presence is not the same as having characters who are like real-life grownups who are not really good or evil or anything so simple.

The Jedi/Force story is clearly big enough to contain the presence of such characters. Samurai dramas and Westerns have them in huge numbers--people looking to earn redemption, people who have a heart of gold underneath the cynicism, people who are stone-cold killers but who follow a hidden moral code, people who are inexplicably strong fighters even though they drink and whore a lot--these are archetypes of heroic fictions built around good and evil. There is nothing in Star Wars that says, "Oh my no, please not here" for that kind of thing.



All of those archetypes are fine for Star Wars. Just not as Jedi. Yoda pretty clearly lays out the "rules" for the Force in ESB and they don't leave room for walking a grey path. If we assume Yoda probably knows what he is talking about, a grey jedi (or force user) is really just a Force user that hasn't fallen to Darkness. Yet.

Grey Jedi came about because somebody, somewhere, wanted to be a "good guy" but use Force lightning too.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on January 28, 2017, 03:44:57 AM
Dunno, I really liked Jolee.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Cyrrex on January 28, 2017, 06:07:56 AM
Theory:  Yoda was, and has always been, wrong about one key thing and that is what broke all the shit.  Namely, the whole "thou shalt not get attached, bro".  It was the downfall of the Jedi in the first place (via Anakin, but really in all things), and pissing all over it was what made Luke triumph in the end.  That - and the fact that it is some mystical power that needs no explaining - is all we need to know about the Force.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 28, 2017, 04:01:20 PM
Exactly. It was Luke's attachment to saving his father's soul that won, Luke's attachment to his friends that won. Yoda and Obi-Wan are flat-out wrong. Plus of course Yoda's the one who stupidly acquiesed to the Clone Wars in the first place, and rented out the Jedi as shock troopers, and stopped investigating the Sith mystery the moment the war started.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Torinak on January 28, 2017, 04:42:06 PM
Too bad Lucas isn't running things, or we might get Episode 0: The Jedi Master. It would showcase Yoda's progression from wizened green guy into the more wizened green Jedi Master he became. We'd get to see the riveting tale of how he used to be a famed gundark wrestler until he fell in love with a rival who broke his heart while costing him the championship title. Dejected, Yoda joined the Jedi order and later became a Jedi Master where he started the "no attachments" rule, along with "Adventure. Excitement. A Jedi craves not these things".


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Soulflame on January 28, 2017, 09:38:36 PM
All of those archetypes are fine for Star Wars. Just not as Jedi. Yoda pretty clearly lays out the "rules" for the Force in ESB and they don't leave room for walking a grey path. If we assume Yoda probably knows what he is talking about, a grey jedi (or force user) is really just a Force user that hasn't fallen to Darkness. Yet.

Grey Jedi came about because somebody, somewhere, wanted to be a "good guy" but use Force lightning too.

Yoda uses Force lightning in the prequels.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Cyrrex on January 29, 2017, 12:09:36 AM
If by "uses" you mean totally got hit with that shit one time, and then another time kinda just absorbed it, then yes, yes he did use Force Lightning.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Soulflame on January 29, 2017, 02:01:01 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaRgvndhH4g

1:18.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Cyrrex on January 29, 2017, 02:29:12 AM
 :headscratch:

That isn't exactly Yoda throwing out lightning.  He is absorbing it and safely sending it off elsewhere.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Soulflame on January 29, 2017, 10:27:14 AM
Interesting.  Since Dooku's lightning was a more dark blue, and Yoda's was a lighter blue, I had always assumed Dooku had used dark side lightning, and Yoda returned with light side lightning.

I realize that KotOR is no longer canon, but light side Jedis could use force lightning in that.  For droids!  Of course for droids.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Kail on January 29, 2017, 11:24:59 AM
Theory:  Yoda was, and has always been, wrong about one key thing and that is what broke all the shit.  Namely, the whole "thou shalt not get attached, bro".  It was the downfall of the Jedi in the first place (via Anakin, but really in all things), and pissing all over it was what made Luke triumph in the end.  That - and the fact that it is some mystical power that needs no explaining - is all we need to know about the Force.

Except that it was only the downfall of the Jedi because Anakin DIDN'T follow it.  And even he said it's not that Jedi are forbidden from being compassionate or empathetic, it's the possessive stuff that they're forbidden, the stuff that has really powerful emotions attached to it that fuck with your judgement.  And Yoda was right about that, that's why he didn't originally want to train Anakin in the first place.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on January 29, 2017, 12:30:57 PM
All of those archetypes are fine for Star Wars. Just not as Jedi. Yoda pretty clearly lays out the "rules" for the Force in ESB and they don't leave room for walking a grey path. If we assume Yoda probably knows what he is talking about, a grey jedi (or force user) is really just a Force user that hasn't fallen to Darkness. Yet.

Grey Jedi came about because somebody, somewhere, wanted to be a "good guy" but use Force lightning too.

Yoda uses Force lightning in the prequels.

No. He reflects it away and I think absorbed some of its energy but that's about it.

Theory:  Yoda was, and has always been, wrong about one key thing and that is what broke all the shit.  Namely, the whole "thou shalt not get attached, bro".  It was the downfall of the Jedi in the first place (via Anakin, but really in all things), and pissing all over it was what made Luke triumph in the end.  That - and the fact that it is some mystical power that needs no explaining - is all we need to know about the Force.

Except that it was only the downfall of the Jedi because Anakin DIDN'T follow it.  And even he said it's not that Jedi are forbidden from being compassionate or empathetic, it's the possessive stuff that they're forbidden, the stuff that has really powerful emotions attached to it that fuck with your judgement.  And Yoda was right about that, that's why he didn't originally want to train Anakin in the first place.

That wasn't a Yoda or Obi-Wan thing. It was a Jedi Order thing. And arguments exist both ways.

 Anakin fell in large part due to his attachment to Padme. (and his first big step towards the dark side happened because of his mother.)
Luke triumphed because of his attachment to his father. But his attachment to his sister resulted in him having a very clear Dark Side moment when Vader uses her to taunt him. "Perhaps if you will not turn, SHE will!"


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Xuri on January 29, 2017, 02:34:31 PM
But... who IS the last Jedi?  :why_so_serious:
(http://thedarkblade.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Last-Jedi.jpg)
 :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Kail on January 29, 2017, 03:02:48 PM
But... who IS the last Jedi?  :why_so_serious:
(http://thedarkblade.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Last-Jedi.jpg)
 :why_so_serious:

(http://www.kerao.net/external/tlj.png)


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: lamaros on January 29, 2017, 04:16:19 PM
If they aren't meant to have attachment, who cares what happens to other people or the republic?

It's only point is a 'loyalty to Jedi above others' thing, or simply meaningless nonsense.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Cyrrex on January 30, 2017, 12:06:26 AM
The problem with Anakin wasn't his attachment, it was that he was constantly being forced to bury it and let go of it.  Had they order embraced attachment (or at least, accepted and understood it), things might have turned out quite differently.  Even Obi-Wan's attachment to Anakin is an issue...not because he has it, but because he has no idea how to deal with and express it.  He knew all along about Anakin and Padme, for example, but chose to ignore it.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Kail on January 30, 2017, 04:33:17 AM
The problem with Anakin wasn't his attachment, it was that he was constantly being forced to bury it and let go of it. 

Except
a) if he wasn't attached, that wouldn't be an issue in the first place, and
b) he didn't turn to the dark side in order to cover up his relationship or to help deal with his emotions, he turned because he thought Padme was dying, and Sith can rez.  It wasn't his desire to keep his secret or his frustration at not being able to have a nice wedding or anything, it was explicitly spelled out as his attachment to Padme being used to manipulate him.  She's dying, you would do anything for her, even some things that the stuffy Jedi might consider wrong, wouldn't you?  Like murdering children?  Ushering in a totalitarian order of fear and genocide?  No, no, your judgement isn't clouded at all, it's those darn Jedi who are all at fault for stupidly trying to stop you from taking this path that would lead to you killing all of them.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on January 30, 2017, 05:10:13 AM
If they aren't meant to have attachment, who cares what happens to other people or the republic?

It's only point is a 'loyalty to Jedi above others' thing, or simply meaningless nonsense.

The implication is clearly that loyalty should be to maintaining peace and harmony - and that personal attachment, rather than commitment to your role.

Also, young protagonist feeling that being taught discipline was all a method of unnecessary  control isn't exactly a new or revolutionary story element.

Fwiw I thought MacGregor did a good job of emoting how he managed personal attachment to QuiGon and Anakin.

A better writer would have found an exciting way to explore how the rigidity of the system contributed to its downfall and how Yoda or ObiWan failed to learn from Anakin. Instead it was just simplified to discipline good, sexy time evil. But hey, George Lucas. It was important to get that 8 lightsabre fight with Grevious in there and see yoda hurling lightning bolts at Dracula instead,  despite those action sequences having no thematic connection to the story arc or developmemt of the  protagonists.

One thing I completely disagree with is the idea that Star Wars always must be completely black and white goodies and baddies. It is chock full of opportunities for young protagonists to spend time working out what is the right path and bad shit happens all the damn time as a result of good intentions. The macro conflict between rebels and the empire is usefully presented as good vs evil because it leaves the writer time to keep the conflict and grey areas in the story at the character level.

 What it needs is good writing.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on January 30, 2017, 08:37:57 AM
Yoda never used forced lightning.
Gray jedi are stupid.
We have morally gray characters, everyone else.
The Jedi lost because the Sith planned better.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on January 30, 2017, 09:23:10 AM
It's only point is a 'loyalty to Jedi above others' thing, or simply meaningless nonsense.

It's the second one.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Cyrrex on January 30, 2017, 09:49:35 AM
The problem with Anakin wasn't his attachment, it was that he was constantly being forced to bury it and let go of it. 

Except
a) if he wasn't attached, that wouldn't be an issue in the first place, and
b) he didn't turn to the dark side in order to cover up his relationship or to help deal with his emotions, he turned because he thought Padme was dying, and Sith can rez.  It wasn't his desire to keep his secret or his frustration at not being able to have a nice wedding or anything, it was explicitly spelled out as his attachment to Padme being used to manipulate him.  She's dying, you would do anything for her, even some things that the stuffy Jedi might consider wrong, wouldn't you?  Like murdering children?  Ushering in a totalitarian order of fear and genocide?  No, no, your judgement isn't clouded at all, it's those darn Jedi who are all at fault for stupidly trying to stop you from taking this path that would lead to you killing all of them.

Nuh uh.  Palpatine could manipulate him specifically because he knew Anakin could not turn to the Jedi for help.  The novelisation of RotS is a bit clearer about how Anakin wanted to use the archives to help search for answers.  Wasn't there also a scene in the film where Anakin is sitting across from Yoda and basically can't tell him shit and Yoda gives him the typical rote bullshit?  I might be mis-remembering this last bit, or maybe it, too, came from the novel.  And again, Obi could have totally helped Anakin, if only he dared openly recognize the issue in the first place.

Lucas did a shit job with the prequels, but there was a little more subtlety there than most of you give him credit for.  It is almost as if your...anger...has clouded your vision.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on January 30, 2017, 02:16:02 PM
It's like poetry.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: lamaros on January 30, 2017, 05:45:01 PM
It's only point is a 'loyalty to Jedi above others' thing, or simply meaningless nonsense.

It's the second one.  :why_so_serious:

Shh, I'm only allowed in here if I keep the disdain low key...


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on January 30, 2017, 06:44:52 PM
Killing the little jedi kids was a full on Bioware moment. It was one of those places in their games where your only dark side option is to be full on evil dick. Terrible.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Malakili on January 31, 2017, 04:49:55 AM
Honestly, the stupid part is the dying in childbirth plotline in general. Just make it so Palpatine has her kidnapped and then lures him to the dark side for the power to kill a whole fortress of dudes that are guarding here. Then we even get a payoff scene where he fights 200 dudes with force lightning or something instead of killing a bunch of kids for no reason.  Maybe he can even accidentally kill Padme for real instead of the Emperor just telling him he did. You can then have Obi Wan show up and fight him and the whole thing.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on January 31, 2017, 02:23:55 PM
Lookit that. Better plotline. 3 minutes of thought. SAD.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: 01101010 on January 31, 2017, 02:56:00 PM
I dunno. Killing a bunch of kids training to be future Jedi is a pretty big leap into pure dark side. Whether you agree with it or not, it hits the point home of just how far Skywalker was down the well and into the pocket of Palpatine. Can't get much deeper or darker. Yeah you could have done the whole kidnapping, but then it's just Skywalker killing kinda-bad guys under the fallen hero shroud (similar to smiting all the Sandpeople). Killing Jedi kids is a whole world darker and makes the point of just how evil Skywalker could reach.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on January 31, 2017, 03:00:23 PM
It is darker, but it doesn't fit with what he was doing previously. It was excessive for his point in evilness.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on January 31, 2017, 03:31:46 PM
It is darker, but it doesn't fit with what he was doing previously. It was excessive for his point in evilness.

This. It was completely out of nowhere in the movie and made no sense to what had gone before. Hell, even the betrayal of Mace Windu didn't make any sense in the context of what we'd been shown in any of the prequel movies.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Samwise on January 31, 2017, 03:44:47 PM
But... DARKER!  Therefore better.    :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 31, 2017, 03:49:26 PM
You can see a version of the movies where Anakin's turn to the Dark Side includes killing the younglings, but it needs way way more development. He just goes from being a whiny teenager worried about his girlfriend to killing kids in ten minutes.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Shannow on April 14, 2017, 11:08:02 AM
Not sure if there's a separate video yet but if you watch the Star Wars Live stream you can see the new trailer.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lucas on April 14, 2017, 11:08:32 AM
HOLY POSTER BATMAN...this is amazing, IMO (official "The Last Jedi" poster". Full size here (http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/starwarsthelastjediposter.jpg)):

(http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/starwarsthelastjediposter.jpg)


Teaser trailer (not as interesting as the teaser for Ep VII, but I'm sure we'll get a good full trailer in a few months):

https://youtu.be/zB4I68XVPzQ (https://youtu.be/zB4I68XVPzQ)


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Shannow on April 14, 2017, 11:16:11 AM
Trailer is definitely a teaser. Love the poster.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on April 14, 2017, 11:55:53 AM
I'm getting the feeling that they're going to embrace the whole "Jedi Order was flawed and had too narrow a vision of the Force" interpretation. I'm totally good with that.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Zetor on April 14, 2017, 12:03:51 PM
Kreia Was Right: The Movie?  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Soln on April 14, 2017, 12:15:43 PM
I approve.  Giggitty.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Draegan on April 14, 2017, 01:05:17 PM
Major grey Jedi hints there.

Love that poster, I want one.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sky on April 14, 2017, 01:22:55 PM
Loved the teaser so much. Force balance, Luke a recluse studying from ancient tomes.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on April 14, 2017, 02:32:18 PM
I really dislike the grey Jedi stuff but we'll see how they handle it. I think my dislike comes from writers and role players who want Grey Jedi to basically just be a Jedi who can use Force Lightning and get away with it. If they make it more of an Eastern thing it could be interesting.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: kaid on April 14, 2017, 04:22:26 PM
I'm getting the feeling that they're going to embrace the whole "Jedi Order was flawed and had too narrow a vision of the Force" interpretation. I'm totally good with that.


Yup it looks like they are going for the unified force path. Where both the jedi and sith going at things in an unbalanced way which keeps causing the traumatic back and forth between force users. I am guessing luke is going there is no light side nor is there a dark side there is just the force.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on April 14, 2017, 04:34:36 PM
I really dislike the grey Jedi stuff but we'll see how they handle it. I think my dislike comes from writers and role players who want Grey Jedi to basically just be a Jedi who can use Force Lightning and get away with it. If they make it more of an Eastern thing it could be interesting.

I like the Jolee path. "Fuck you, I have feelings." That was great writing.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Rendakor on April 14, 2017, 06:42:20 PM
Is that Kylo Ren on the right?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on April 14, 2017, 06:50:50 PM
Right, Grey Jedi is also dumb in a way because it says as noted, "Don't worry you can be a badass and still be 'good' kind of".

If it's "accept what life is telling you, evolve and grow as you must, be what you are meant to be", there's a lot of story-telling goodness as well as ethical wisdom in there. "Be open to life around you, learn from how life grows and suffers and wants": ah yss. That's basically spaghetti Westerns replacing the old white-hat/black-hat Westerns and it's good.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lucas on April 14, 2017, 06:53:55 PM
Is that Kylo Ren on the right?

You know, it's funny because, no matter she's below, the hair (and hairstyle) of the face on the right is definitely different, at first sight I kinda assumed that was Rey's face.
-------------

Oh, and guys, do yourself a favour and, if you can, watch Mark Hamill's tribute to Carrie Fisher. It's a 1 hour long conversation (he's alone talking to the audience), where yes, there are anecdotes and stuff like that but the way he talks about her, his
spontaneity, gentleness just shine through and you can't suddenly avoid watching the segment in its entirety. Starts at the 3:03:15 mark:

https://youtu.be/xgxO6mQI9k0


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Shannow on April 14, 2017, 07:05:41 PM
Plus they showed  this tribute at Star Wars live  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE99le5FBrY). Sad and awesome all at once.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Comstar on April 14, 2017, 07:13:15 PM
I..dunno. You could swap nearly every scene shown with one from TESB. We already got one remake that worked because of the actors and characters, I'd like to see a new movie plot this time!



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Hoax on April 14, 2017, 07:38:02 PM
When did we get a remake that worked? TFA was dogshit


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ruvaldt on April 14, 2017, 11:58:53 PM
TFA was a lot of fun. 

I don't have any inclination to watch it again, but that doesn't make it a bad movie.  And that definitely doesn't make it dog shit.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on April 15, 2017, 12:31:23 AM
I..dunno. You could swap nearly every scene shown with one from TESB. We already got one remake that worked because of the actors and characters, I'd like to see a new movie plot this time!


wait, what?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Draegan on April 15, 2017, 11:18:54 AM
Since Rey is training that means in a remake and dogshit. Might as well slit your wrists now.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Soln on April 15, 2017, 11:22:30 AM
TFA was too close to the original but still good, fan service aside (I'm a fan).  But there's no need for this sequel to be an explicit remake-homage to ESB.  I'll be disappointed if it's a beat for beat copy.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sky on April 15, 2017, 11:31:31 AM
If it's "accept what life is telling you, evolve and grow as you must, be what you are meant to be", there's a lot of story-telling goodness as well as ethical wisdom in there. "Be open to life around you, learn from how life grows and suffers and wants": ah yss. That's basically spaghetti Westerns replacing the old white-hat/black-hat Westerns and it's good.

That's my hope, too.

And I think it's the way they're going, because that puts in a path for Rey to bring Kylo back into balance.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on April 15, 2017, 06:41:01 PM
How do you go from 1min trailer to ESB remake I mean, did I miss the super extended version? Did ESB include grey jedis and I missed that part? It's like I'm reading these forums taking crazy pills.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Merusk on April 16, 2017, 05:43:55 AM
Some people love shitting on a thing. Others decide that their childhood trumps others so anything derivative of or not fully validating their childhood is crap. Then some folks are just assholes.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Soln on April 16, 2017, 01:12:05 PM
How do you go from 1min trailer to ESB remake I mean, did I miss the super extended version? Did ESB include grey jedis and I missed that part? It's like I'm reading these forums taking crazy pills.

You're correct there's going to be original content, but my concern was that the overall story will be ESB (and I hope I'm wrong).  Luke as "your father ", Hoth opening with AT-ATs but on a desert planet.  We'll see, hope for the best.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on April 16, 2017, 05:16:41 PM
I'm sure it'll have lightsabers too, fucking unoriginal bastards.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sky on April 16, 2017, 05:34:08 PM
To be fair, I thought it was a pretty clear ESB style teaser with the cave, the training, the friends in trouble.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on April 16, 2017, 10:08:11 PM
To be fair, I thought it was a pretty clear ESB style teaser with the cave, the training, the friends in trouble.

The At-Ats are a bit too ESB for my tastes but the rest of it didn't give me ESB vibes at all.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on June 21, 2017, 09:32:22 AM
Solo shot first at Lord and Miller.


http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/directors-quit-han-solo-movie (http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/directors-quit-han-solo-movie)


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Speedy Cerviche on June 21, 2017, 09:45:56 AM
I think they decided on a plan years ago when they bought Lucas Arts to have their big core trilogy follow a similar story arc to episodes 4-6. This was a decision made at the highest levels of Disney Corp as a safe way to begin recouping their $4 billion outlay for the franchise. This plan is not going to be deviated from now unless episode 8 completely flops (not likely). They have more artistic leeway in the spinoff movies, and then after this first trilogy is completed.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Merusk on June 21, 2017, 11:07:54 AM
That's exactly what it is. They didn't quit, they were fired, mostly for riffing instead of sticking to the script.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-why-han-solo-movie-directors-were-fired-1015474

Kennedy had also expressed concern not only at the direction of some of the action scenes, but Clarke and Aldean's performances. "wooden" is apparently used in the descriptions, though I haven't read the base articles yet. Apparently there were also concerns about hiring Lord and Miller in the first place, based on what I've read in the last few hours.

Quote
When relaying the information provided to them by their source, The Weekly Planet Podcast did insist that while the script for the still untitled Han Solo is “very funny,” Lucasfilm president Kathleen Kennedy has told directors Phil Lord and Christopher Miller that both the action and acting are “weak.”
http://www.inquisitr.com/4288434/is-han-solo-film-in-trouble-poor-acting-and-action-allegedly-forces-early-reshoots/

The problem with the popularity of Star Wars has always been that people want to put their own spin on things. Taking pieces of the universe and turning it sideways to fit your own vision of 'how things should work.' That was one of my largest complaints about the EU and what turned it into a godawful mess. While it's nice for fan fiction and one-off side projects, it's a terrible approach for a body of work.

Imagine Sam Jackon's The Hobbit, someone's Kirk/ Spock slash fiction, or any of Moffat's Who work becoming the driving vision for those universes. While there's room for them in fandom, you don't want them to be the backbone. That's the situation Disney and LFL are always going to be in and why they're going to work to protect and project a singular vision.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ironwood on June 21, 2017, 12:24:43 PM

 Moffat's Who work becoming the driving vision for those universes.


 :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on June 21, 2017, 12:26:59 PM
Sam Jackon's The Hobbit,

Say precious one more time mother fucker, I dare you! I double dare you!


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Merusk on June 21, 2017, 12:30:35 PM
Fuck.  Second time this week I've done that. I was talking about Danny Glover with friends and kept calling him Donald. Getting old is shit.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Abagadro on June 23, 2017, 03:39:10 AM
Ok, so this is probably only funny to me and the other one in a million people who are into ASMR videos and Star Wars, but this is so fucking brilliant on multiple levels it made my sides hurt from laughing so I'm linking it here. Don't judge me.

Kylo Ren's ASMR Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69IuXVx-Tfk


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Merusk on June 23, 2017, 09:29:47 AM
aurialnauts always do good stuff. If you haven't watched it, Jedi Dance Party is up through ESB now.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Abagadro on September 22, 2017, 02:07:20 AM
RJ tweeted today that the picture is locked, which seems to indicate that they are pretty happy with it since with the last two they were messing with it right up to release.  I have a lot of faith in the dude after his work on BB so please don't fuck this up.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Samwise on September 24, 2017, 04:39:09 PM
RJ is the main reason I'm excited about this movie.  "Brick" is one of my all time favorite movies ever, "Looper" was highly enjoyable, and his work on Breaking Bad was awesome.  Last Jedi could be the worst thing he's ever done and still be better than TFA, and I enjoyed TFA.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on October 09, 2017, 10:00:28 PM
New trailer.

Hamill looks pretty great. Not sure about any of the rest of it. Beginning to get that sense that they may really have gone for a ESB remake.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Abagadro on October 09, 2017, 10:06:18 PM
Going dark on trailers and other stuff before seeing it, but if that is case it is really disappointing.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sir T on October 09, 2017, 11:55:05 PM
So they are playing it safe by doing an Original trilogy redux?

Meh.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Draegan on October 10, 2017, 06:55:12 AM
The trailer tells you absolutely nothing. Inferring anything from it is stupid.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on October 10, 2017, 07:09:57 AM
Yeah, it's just a feeling, I couldn't defend it with specific visual quotes to save my life.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Draegan on October 10, 2017, 07:28:56 AM
Im pretty sure ESB didn't invent a dark act two.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Merusk on October 10, 2017, 08:14:03 AM
Not even.

So much misdirection in that trailer. I'm not buying it after the TFA and Rogue One trailers. It's set-up to have you think that Kylo kills Leia. Of course, we all know Carrie's gone so they have to "deal" with her, right? We expect it, so they're playing to it.

Kylo/ Rey at the end; different lighting on both characters with much more orange on Kylo. Add the falling debris while there's none around Rey it's a complete misdirect, playing into his offer to train her in TFA. Another expectation they're playing on.

Snoke talking while we're shown Kylo. Nope, another misdirect. Lest we forget Luke's "My father has it, my sister has it, you have it..." from TFA where all Luke really got to do was emote heavily for 20 uncomfortable seconds.

Rey screaming/ Snoke in the background; Can't even know if this is a Force vision or not. I'm not convinced she even gets captured at this point.

The realest thing in the trailer was Luke's statement; "This is not going to go how you expect."

Regards
- The guy with a "Your Snoke Theory Sucks" sticker.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 10, 2017, 10:08:37 AM
This trailer all but confirms my theory they are going with the Rey = Bastilla angle. Ren get a redemption and Rey is the big bad next episode.  I'm even going to hazard saying that through anger Rey accidentally causes Leia's death which is where she snaps.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Draegan on October 10, 2017, 12:57:42 PM
I bet half the footage in the trailer is actually not in the movie.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: kaid on October 10, 2017, 02:24:46 PM
I bet half the footage in the trailer is actually not in the movie.

Hehe after the rogue one trailer that is an open question of how much if any of this shows up in the actual movie.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on October 11, 2017, 12:41:33 PM
Not even.

So much misdirection in that trailer. I'm not buying it after the TFA and Rogue One trailers. It's set-up to have you think that Kylo kills Leia. Of course, we all know Carrie's gone so they have to "deal" with her, right? We expect it, so they're playing to it.

Kylo/ Rey at the end; different lighting on both characters with much more orange on Kylo. Add the falling debris while there's none around Rey it's a complete misdirect, playing into his offer to train her in TFA. Another expectation they're playing on.

Snoke talking while we're shown Kylo. Nope, another misdirect. Lest we forget Luke's "My father has it, my sister has it, you have it..." from TFA where all Luke really got to do was emote heavily for 20 uncomfortable seconds.

Rey screaming/ Snoke in the background; Can't even know if this is a Force vision or not. I'm not convinced she even gets captured at this point.

The realest thing in the trailer was Luke's statement; "This is not going to go how you expect."

Regards
- The guy with a "Your Snoke Theory Sucks" sticker.

I agree. I think Rey is actually talking to Luke in that scene and it's probably in the same cave scene where he says the whole "All I know is it is time for the Jedi to end..." She's trying to talk him into training her and he's like "Nope, that didn't end well last time!"

Now, my big question from the trailer is who is Luke comparing her to when he says he's only seen that kind of raw power once before.

My 3 big suspects:
Vader - That'd play into the "She's Anakin Reborn" theory that is floating around.
Palpatine - I've seen this one mentioned but I'm pretty sure Luke had a healthy respect and fear of the Emperor. Especially after the Force Lightning.
Kylo - I don't know. Kylo does seem pretty powerful but not as powerful as the two above.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Merusk on October 11, 2017, 01:17:11 PM
It's Kylo.  He's 1/2 Skywalker and Luke remains the strongest Jedi in the new canon. 

Anakin was stronger than Palpatine, which was why Palpatine worked so hard to convert him. While the loss of his limbs crippled him, he was STILL stronger, as he was able to toss Palpy into the Death Star reactor with little fuss. The Emperor wanted to turn Luke because his potential was stronger than Vader as a cripple due to being whole.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: 01101010 on October 11, 2017, 02:00:25 PM
It's Kylo.  He's 1/2 Skywalker and Luke remains the strongest Jedi in the new canon. 

Anakin was stronger than Palpatine, which was why Palpatine worked so hard to convert him. While the loss of his limbs crippled him, he was STILL stronger, as he was able to toss Palpy into the Death Star reactor with little fuss. The Emperor wanted to turn Luke because his potential was stronger than Vader as a cripple due to being whole.

Well, almost whole anyway...  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on October 12, 2017, 02:02:25 AM
Also, 'little fuss' other than it killing him.   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on October 12, 2017, 02:23:25 AM
Key word : "Raw"

And dialog like that has to refer to someone relevant to the future of the character. It is known.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 10, 2017, 03:02:43 PM
Big thing coming out of the premiere is universal advice to go completely dark on the movie from this point on--that there are some huge surprises that haven't leaked at all and that it's much better if you don't know they're coming.

I am going to follow this advice.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sky on December 11, 2017, 11:08:11 AM
Watching some interviews leading up, it certainly seems that way. Hamill slipped with some (seemingly) minor thing in a cast interview and the other three actors all shit their pants.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Samwise on December 11, 2017, 02:43:55 PM
None of the following count as surprises:

1) Rey is a Skywalker.
2) Rey turns to the dark side.  (Which probably requires killing Ren.)
3) A member of the original cast dies.
4) There is a Porg and it is cute.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sky on December 11, 2017, 03:57:29 PM
I'm pretty sure Finn is a Skywalker from when Luke "turned to the dark side" IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN WINK WINK


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 11, 2017, 04:32:44 PM
I'm sure I've mentioned it in this thread or the ep 7 one but Rey going evil and Finn being the jedi to redeem her in ep9 is still a distinct possibility to me.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: SurfD on December 12, 2017, 03:09:18 AM
It's Kylo.  He's 1/2 Skywalker and Luke remains the strongest Jedi in the new canon. 

Anakin was stronger than Palpatine, which was why Palpatine worked so hard to convert him. While the loss of his limbs crippled him, he was STILL stronger, as he was able to toss Palpy into the Death Star reactor with little fuss. The Emperor wanted to turn Luke because his potential was stronger than Vader as a cripple due to being whole.
Supposedly it's actually Ray, or at least female.  Haven't been able to verify it with a limited google search, but rumor has it someone picked it out of a subtitled version this trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0CbN8sfihY from somewhere like Taiwan or Korea, where they have gender specific words for things like "you", and noticed that the line Snoke delivers at the beginning of the trailer (which everyone assumes is directed at Ren) uses a Feminine "You", which leads them to believe that both Snoke and Luke later in the trailer are talking about Ray, and not Kylo.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lucas on December 13, 2017, 05:47:33 PM
Just returned from the theatre. NO SPOILERS


but let me say that the last 40 minutes blew me away and  got me VERY emotional: the first part of the movie, on the other hand left me...not disappointed, but pretty neutral about the whole thing ("so..is that it?").  And yeah, having avoided most spoilers, I didn't expect the outcome about one of the characters.

Do I like TLJ better than TFA (and I really liked TFA) ? *gnashing of teeth".....hmm, first part of the movie: personally,  no,  but "hell yeah" for the last hour or so. And what about the "holy grail" called ESB, also considering the often mentioned parallelism between the various chapters of the saga? You know....similar but...VERY, VERY different, for some obvious reasons.

Enjoy the show  :drill:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 13, 2017, 09:07:17 PM
This is good.

But, the first 20 minutes I did not enjoy, and there were too many jokes that would have sat better in space balls.

Also, in places it gets a bad case of the prequel cgis.

And the whole 'this is going to go how you think' line is overdone. That said, you should  stay spoiler free because although the reveals are not really a shock - they are very satisfying when delivered.



It is a much better film than tFA.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 13, 2017, 09:08:28 PM
There are some things about this movie that are better than the ESB equivalent.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Wasted on December 13, 2017, 09:12:40 PM
I liked this a lot better than The Force Awakens.

There are still some annoying bits, but it definitely feels like its own movie and not just a big nostalgia grab like TFA.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ironwood on December 14, 2017, 03:11:11 AM
Well, that's a relief, I guess.  'Cause it still looks from the outside to be a remake of ESB.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 14, 2017, 04:39:48 AM
Oh it is entirely that. Set expectations accordingly. Even the opening crawl doesn't fuck about on this topic, it might as well say 'remember the start of ESB? We' re back there'

But it isn't a remake in the same paint by numbers way tFA is a remake of aNH.
 
There are some very on-the-nose scene for scene repeats. But characters react to them in a satisfying and different way that lets you contrast how OT characters did it and finds ways not to simply tell you who is right.

Luke and Leia arguably get better characterisation than they did in the OT. This Poe is much more interesting than tFA Poe.

Like every new star wars it has pacing issues. The plot's unwillingness to slow down (whole thing runs for somewhere between 48 and 72 in universe hours as far as I can tell) means character growth  stretches credibility. But at least it is there.

The worst aspect of the film is the slapstick dialled up way too far. To such an extent that occasional well delivered jokes that might have made me chuckle stopped being funny. That said, the audience was laughing a lot. Maybe they were morons or maybe I hate fun. Possibly both.

Dreadnought captain guy is how you do funny in a star wars film. General Hux is not.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 14, 2017, 06:58:47 AM
I'd happily watch an entire movie about the adventures of Dreadnought Captain Guy. Or an animated series.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on December 14, 2017, 10:21:48 PM
Damn good movie. Genuinely surprised me in a couple of the choices they made, two in particular. I don't see how JJ is going to be able to follow this one up. If TFA was Batman Begins, then this was the Dark Knight which leaves Episode 9 in danger of being The Darkknight Rises (which I thought was a pretty bad movie compared to the two that preceded it) Before one of you jumps on me, my comparison isn't meant to say this is as good as the Darkknight, but just relative quality differences between the movies within the trilogy.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 15, 2017, 04:24:58 AM
Dark knight is a good comparison.

Both films have flaws, but really stand out for final acts that deliver thematically and for their characters as well as having explosions and punching.




Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Xerapis on December 15, 2017, 05:42:20 AM
I loved it.

The blatant side quest was the only slow part for me.

Had some great humor beats and a couple that fell flat.

My jaw dropped multiple times and I even blurted out "no fucking way" in a good way once.


Caveat: I'm that guy that wears a Star Wars t-shirt to watch a Star Wars movie.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on December 15, 2017, 01:48:30 PM

Like every new star wars it has pacing issues. The plot's unwillingness to slow down (whole thing runs for somewhere between 48 and 72 in universe hours as far as I can tell) means character growth  stretches credibility. But at least it is there.



Actually...



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 15, 2017, 03:00:44 PM
I was allowing for there to be a day or so between the start of the movie and the person saying the thing in the spoiler. Also there could reasonably have been 24 hours between the end of the period mentioned in the spoiler and the end of the film.

But it does grind gears and seems a trivial thing to fix.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Evil Elvis on December 15, 2017, 06:46:45 PM
That's it. I'm done.

In all seriousness, I think I'd rather watch the prequels than this.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 16, 2017, 12:32:59 AM
I saw this today and I'm still a little ambivalent about it. I'm not sure how to feel. There were some really good parts in it, particularly in the last half-hour. There were some choices I did not expect and was pleasantly surprised by. There were some really well-filmed scenes and well-staged scenes. There was some good humor.

But it was tonally all over the place, as if it didn't really know where on the spectrum of comedy and drama it wanted to rest. Some of the comedy was good but slapstick is a good description of some it. At times, it felt very much like a Star Wars movie while at other times it was just odd. The entire casino scene and plot felt out of place, not just the plot point or the side quest that spawned it, but the whole casino did not feel like it belonged in the Star Wars universe. In addition, there were at least two major characters (or should have been major characters) that we just get no information on at all, Capt. Phasma and Snoke. There's no origin, no explanation, no character motivation (at least with Snoke you know it's because he's a Sith Lord or something but the lack of any sort of origin for him just puzzles me).


The more I think on it, the more I like Force Awakens better than this.

EDIT: I forgot to mention



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 16, 2017, 03:12:09 AM
I'll tell you where the casino does fit - the prequel universe.

But watching our heroes pratfall in their flight suits was incongruous.

The main tonal issue I have with this is the first order. They aren't frightening because there is no sense of competence. Hux gives us no sense he could lead an army, Phasma and her troopers seem to have escaped an anime.  In aNH Tarkin immediately gives a sense that the empire is not going to fuck around and is quite capable of getting shit done. Hux never gives that impression. Dreadnought Captain guy maybe - but mostly he reinforces the problem by pointing out that the FO are mostly idiots.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on December 16, 2017, 04:20:34 AM
Very disappointed.

Some of it was not really anyone's fault or can be forgiven.  There were a few Luke lines that ended coming out with the animated Joker's voice.  That took me so out of the film...  And the criticism of Episode 7 being like episode 4... and then the scrawl of Episode 8 being so similar to the start of Episode 5.  I can put those issues aside if the rest of the film works, but....

Some of it was just the wasted story elements. 
Some of it was unearned sap.  It takes more than 5 minutes to forge a meaningful relationship, folks. 
Some of it was massive idiocy.
Some of it was poor writing. They tried to subvert expectations so much that it got in the way of the story.
Some of it was dialogue.  Some very, very bad dialogue in places.  There were several moments that took me right out of the film.

There were good moments.  There was some iconic images.  There were a few great lines.  But the good stuff was not connected enough to give me chills.  Trim the film down - remove some of the cute - it would be better, but it was a disappointment. 


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 16, 2017, 06:38:50 AM
Amazing. Every word in that sentence is wrong.

(Actually I agree with you on the casino, the porgs, and idea the film should be 20-30 minutes shorter.)


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on December 16, 2017, 06:53:47 AM
I mean he does watch agents of shield and wants the mcu to tie into that garbage.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 16, 2017, 07:16:03 AM
Re:Luke



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: schild on December 16, 2017, 10:50:50 AM
Have had three people, knowing I don't like Star Wars, explain the movie to me. I didn't ask them to do this.

Not a single person description moved me past "why the fuck do people still watch this shit?"

I can see nostalgia driving people to see Phantom Menace. Hell, that's why I saw Phantom Menace. But we're five movies later and I haven't heard anyone I trust actually call them great.

So, real talk, why the fuck do any of you care about Star Wars? Is there some sort of generational thing we're you're just unable to admit it's poorly written garbage for kids?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on December 16, 2017, 03:06:30 PM
People still care because there have been plenty of good star wars media in the last 30+ years since the original movies. Even more after the prequels (as surprising as that may be).  Whether its the both of the clone wars cartoons, some well written comics, books, etc etc. Its not like the franchise has been lying dead for years only for greedy studio execs to swoop in our on a popular IP from the begone era of the 70s. The ground floor, the living room, and the damn kids rooms are there. The movies just need to not suck at building a fucking roof.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Wasted on December 16, 2017, 03:17:42 PM
I'm not really a fan.  I think very little about Star Wars between films, so 'care about' is a far stronger term than I would use to describe my relationship to the franchise. Star Wars and the MCU are the only two franchises where I will watch a Hollywood event movie, nearly all the other times I don't watch blockbusters/action Hollywood films.

They aren't great films, if you only ever want to watch great films then skip them.  They are what they are now, if you don't know if you want to see it or not then you are over-thinking it.

I do think Star Wars will get better with time, in that I think once the memory of all the money they paid for the franchise fades a bit and they allow smaller scale side projects to experiment with themes we might get some 'great' films, but the Episode movies will always be Event films and made for mass market expectations.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: WayAbvPar on December 16, 2017, 04:30:11 PM
Enjoyed it, but I can see the cracks. If it wasn't Star Wars, it would be patently ridiculous B movie crap for the most part. With each new movie the 'event' feel of a SW release is lessening. I am sure I will see the others, but they won't feel quite as special as they used to.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 16, 2017, 04:54:52 PM
I still watch Star Wars movies because when they are good, they are good. And I have enough nostalgia from them as a kid that I've been willing to accept the bad (except Revenge of the Sith which I never saw in theaters, only on a bootleg download). Rogue One, for whatever its flaws, showed that you can do something different with the Star Wars universe that takes some risks and make a good movie out of it. I have actually not ever read a Star Wars EU book, nor seen any of the animated movies or TV shows so I'd really only call myself a casual Star Wars fan rather than a rabid one.

This took some risks and I think most of them failed, mostly because I think they were done to subvert audience expectations rather than a conscious story choice. It was just a glorious mess and the last half hour just showed how well it COULD be done but wasn't.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Shannow on December 16, 2017, 05:04:47 PM
Cause we aint miserable and hate ourselves? It's fun space opera with some nostalgia thrown in.

The first 90 minutes were a bit meh. The last hour was great. One particular scene at the end got me in the feels. Porgs were awesome, fuck you haters!


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on December 16, 2017, 06:25:02 PM
This was pretty damn great.

So, real talk, why the fuck do any of you care about Star Wars? Is there some sort of generational thing we're you're just unable to admit it's poorly written garbage for kids?

(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/645/713/888.jpg)


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Bunk on December 16, 2017, 11:45:29 PM
It's going to take me a while to process this. I agree, it managed to retell Empire without feeling like the shot by shot retread that episode 7 was.

I enjoyed it, was surprised several times, was bored a few times... It never really seemed to have enough "big" moments. The one big silent shot was pretty awesome, though I agree with Jgsugden that it just creates another why didnt they ever do that before dilemma.


I'll admit, I kind of like the squeaky bird in the Falcon. Totally not the type of thing I usually enjoy, but I think they got the humor balance right there.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 17, 2017, 12:09:53 AM
Porgs were awesome. I loved the porgs.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 17, 2017, 06:00:26 AM
I'd have been fine with the porgs if we didn't also get frog nuns, and crystal pokemon, and green milk monsters, and casino planet horse-things.

There is too much nonessential cgi. Individually they are all bearable. Together it makes the film feel like a George Lucas special edition.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on December 17, 2017, 08:09:03 AM
I'd have been fine with the porgs if we didn't also get frog nuns, and crystal pokemon, and green milk monsters, and casino planet horse-things.

There is too much nonessential cgi. Individually they are all bearable. Together it makes the film feel like a George Lucas special edition.

Only one that bugged me was the milk one, I thought blue milk was bantha milk anyways.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: ghost on December 17, 2017, 09:38:15 AM
Overall this was a decent flick that could have used a decent editor.  


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on December 17, 2017, 10:18:43 AM
Some of the complaints amuse me but two of them simply make me roll my eyes and look amused.


All in all I really enjoyed the movie. I do think some of the middle bits dragged but the director was trying to make a point, that Yoda explicitly states, the failing is ok and trying to be the big damn hero all the time isn't always the answer. The whole side quest with the casino was intended to teach that lesson to Finn and especially Poe.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 17, 2017, 10:43:43 AM
I loved this movie.

I loved that it dared to not give in to the most adolescent desires in some SW fans. I love that it poked Lucas' infantile understanding of Joseph Campbell so hard in the eye that it came out with eyeball goop all over it.

I loved that Poe Dameron has a desperate, elaborate plan that actually gets people killed because it's so reckless.

I love that in the end, a movement has to be a movement to have any chance--that it's not just redshirts and a couple of space wizard superheroes.

I love that it announced that not everybody has to be related to everybody.

I love that a central character was allowed to have been a bitter failure.

I love that someone made a goddamn film rather than a bunch of fan fiction fanservice.

Yeah, the casino planet shit dragged some. Ok.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 17, 2017, 10:54:26 AM
Also, I fucking love that it doesn't care


I love


I love



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Bunk on December 17, 2017, 11:25:55 AM
I'd agree. While the movie definitely had a few too many cheesy laughs, it didn't feel like a movie pandering to kids like most of its predecessors did. The casino scene was one of those bits needed to get certain plot points across, so I see why it was there, but it was hurt by containing the overly stupid chase sequence.

I did like the emphasis the whole movie had on the idea that nobodies could make a difference when properly inspired.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 17, 2017, 11:28:12 AM
And holy shit, do I love




Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on December 17, 2017, 11:55:54 AM
So the following things did not bug you?

...which was a consistent problem.  Something awesome would occur and then be followed by something that took me back out of the film. 

This movie had the story consistency and logic flaws of a Saturday morning cartoon.

Also, TFA was criticized for being a remake of ANH with elements of Empire and Jedi.  Well...
Did anyone find the dialogue outstanding?  I found it inconsistent and awkward.  And I'm not talking about the masive personality shift in Luke between the movies. 

and Lakov_Sanite:
People calling this the best of the films ... crazy.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 17, 2017, 12:00:11 PM
And holy shit, do I love




This and

 

were absolutely the best calls made in the film.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 17, 2017, 12:24:59 PM
Overall this was a decent flick that could have used a decent editor.  

Not one of these things need to resolved.

If someone can be bothered to write a decent story around them then make a Rogue 1 style one shot about it by all means.

But none of them are relevant to resolving the actual story being told across the 3 films.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on December 17, 2017, 01:26:51 PM
On Snoke:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on December 17, 2017, 01:31:27 PM
Boy was this some old bullshit.

Though I say fuck it at this point, if I close my eyes and pretend this movie is about a tranny luke skywalker who became a bounty hunter after the death of vader this becomes way more enjoyable. Fan fiction level writing here but the folks who'd give you tranny luke galaxies greatest bounty hunter and grey jedi. The force awakens was bad star wars, this is star wars thrown out of a 10 story window and shot till its dead. Just tell me when you guys are ready for spoilers fuck.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 17, 2017, 01:32:15 PM
So the following things did not bug you?

Various stuff follows



As far as stuff not making sense otherwise, there are none of these movies that can sustain even the most remote examination in this respect. It wasn't until Rogue One that they tried to explain why an expensive space station designed to kill planets had a flaw that would allow a single torpedo to destroy it.

They've never explained why the Empire/First Order doesn't build capital ships that are primarily armed to kill fast light attack craft like X-Wings, considering that EVERY SINGLE SPACE BATTLE in the entire saga features light attack craft ripping the shit out of giant capital ships that are built to kill nothing but other giant capital ships.

They've never explained why everybody in this universe builds giant bottomless shafts in just about every major construction project and large military vessel.

They've never explained why everyone forgets the Jedi so completely within such a short span despite the fact that they were every-fucking-where as space cops and warrior monks for thousands of years.

They've never explained why if the Force is everywhere and in everything 99.9% of beings have no feelings for it and can't access it. Except for the one time they did explain it and everyone wished they hadn't.

They've never explained why Han Solo is so careful about his calculations for hyperspace the first time we meet him but that afterwards we never get any sense that anybody has to do much of anything remotely complicated to travel across hyperspace. This film might be the first time we ever see a situation where finite fuel or energy supplies matter even slightly. (Not sure why they don't just bop a small ship out to a nearby fuel depot and buy a couple of in-flight tankers to resupply their ships, except maybe none of them are able to keep up with the fastest ships in the Republic fleet when they're under full steam like this.)

They've never explained why Princess Leia, knowing that the Falcoln is being tracked, doesn't just land quickly in a friendly port and get the tracker removed stat (or ask R2-D2 to find it, he seems pretty handy with that sort of thing) but instead decides to go to the Rebel Base and basically put them on a short timer to figure out the plans or die. Prior to Rogue One, we didn't even know that she knew the plans showed that the Death Star had a design flaw.

On and on. Every single one of these movies has a plot situation or ten that doesn't bear close examining. The only real question is what they do with it narratively. The Phantom Menace had a nine-year old beating an armada to prove he was destined to be powerful, ok; this one had contrived situations to explore the nature of failure, the weakness of messianic heroism, the desperation of resistance, etc.  The difference between any of these films is not whether there are contrived situations, it's the storytelling that surrounds them. This is mostly great in that respect.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Miguel on December 17, 2017, 03:37:32 PM


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on December 17, 2017, 03:39:54 PM

He did.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on December 17, 2017, 03:51:02 PM

he a wizard harry


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 17, 2017, 05:36:40 PM
On Snoke:

This is premise. You got your explanation as far as it affects this story.

 

This story is not about that. It about how Ben grows in power.

It also isn't about why Poe Dameron is a show off who doesn't consider the bigger picture.

It also isn't about why Finn struggles to commit to be part of something bigger.

It also isn't about why Rey was left in a junkyard to fend for herself.

What it is about is how these 4 people react to their situation.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on December 17, 2017, 07:34:45 PM
Nevermind - That posted late...


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 17, 2017, 08:17:44 PM
If he elected to leave in that fashion, he turned his back on his sister and so many others.

What's he gonna do, take on the first order with a laser sword?

"Strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine"  I mean, how much exposition do you need in your movies?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on December 17, 2017, 09:10:00 PM
Thinking about this movie, not that there was much to contemplate, has me wondering if there is something wrong with me. Do I hate fun? Are these movies not for me? Does a casual star wars nerd, someone who doesn't instantly buy anything with a clone trooper on it but is pretty knowledge about the universe... is someone like me not the intended audience. Do I have to turn off my brain and pretend I'm watching a transformers movie, clapping my hands in glee every time Michael Bay gives a blow job to explosions and the american way like I suspect people who do like those movies probably do?

Or is it bullshit without the small caveat of some attention paid to basic star wars lore. Is it so un-star wars that it simply goes off its own rail, skipping along the fan wankery path of grey jedi and re-resurrected-aborted-baby-palatines. Am I expecting too much from a franchise that gave us the prequals? Is the standard so irreparably low that its enough to have a coherent passage of dialogue?

Trying to identify who is this movie for I'm starting to draw some blanks. Is it for star wars fans? Well no. Fuck all the shit we will never get explained in this movie (who is snoke, why does the first order have the entire galaxy under its control, why does lei army called the resistance/rebels when their the army/navy of the galactic republic, how can snoke build a death star and no one notice or care, why isn't the first order considered terrorist), the stuff it bothers to put a magnify glass on has more in common with the xmen than it does star wars.


I would say this is for the casuals but the casuals are giving this a 50% on rotten tomatoes. Or is it the star wars fans? Maybe the vagueness, the inability for the series to follow any kind of cannon (or its own cannon) the fact that it doubles down on everyone's complaints about the force awakens is burning people out. Exposing this for what it is, Disney digging into the pockets of the every man with a new family friendly story about angsty teenagers fighting non threatening space nazies. And that's ok. But don't call it star wars. Not because that isn't the premise of star wars. But because Star Wars did it first, and better. We don't call the hunger games battle royale 2 because that's how people get shot in the face.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 17, 2017, 09:27:54 PM
You should stick to short trolling statements because you make just about no fucking sense past two or three sentences.

To put it another way, I have no idea how any filmmaker of any outlook could read your post and figure out what making a movie that would please you would look like.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sky on December 17, 2017, 09:32:17 PM
Absolutely phenomenal movie. I don't bother ranking, for me ANH, ESB, Rogue One and Last Jedi are all great Star Wars, with TFA and RotJ being good SW.

Really looking forward to Rian's trilogy, no idea how JJ is going to follow that unless he and Rian mapped it out during the shooting of LJ. Hell, I wish Rian could go back and reshoot the prequels (because there's a good story underneath all Lucas' egotistical destruction). He's the Kershner of the modern SW generation.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on December 17, 2017, 09:40:01 PM
You should stick to short trolling statements because you make just about no fucking sense past two or three sentences.

To put it another way, I have no idea how any filmmaker of any outlook could read your post and figure out what making a movie that would please you would look like.


Hmm I have a particularly obvious number of movies I list as hitting the park right in this forum. Is it too much to ask for a several hundred million dollar movie budget to produce something better than the fucking clone wars cartoons. Fuck a bagel.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 17, 2017, 09:53:55 PM
What it is about is how these 4 people react to their situation.

That is a terrible story that lacks any of the backing to make us understand WHY these characters react to their situation. Things don't happen in a vacuum and people don't live in one. Their past actions and the things that shape them into the people they are can provide context for why they make the decisions they do, and why making those decisions is a struggle worth cheering.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on December 17, 2017, 10:18:54 PM
If he elected to leave in that fashion, he turned his back on his sister and so many others.
What's he gonna do, take on the first order with a laser sword?

"Strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine"  I mean, how much exposition do you need in your movies?

What it is about is how these 4 people react to their situation.
That is a terrible story that lacks any of the backing to make us understand WHY these characters react to their situation. Things don't happen in a vacuum and people don't live in one. Their past actions and the things that shape them into the people they are can provide context for why they make the decisions they do, and why making those decisions is a struggle worth cheering.
100%.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on December 17, 2017, 10:44:05 PM


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Abagadro on December 18, 2017, 01:12:09 AM
Enjoyed 90 percent of it and REALLY enjoyed about 30 percent of it.  I'll have to see it again to see how I really feel about it in the grander scheme of things.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ironwood on December 18, 2017, 03:39:43 AM
Lol, you fuckers need a spoiler thread.   :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on December 18, 2017, 04:17:59 AM
Just got done watching this.  I’ll type a long rambling post once I get to my iPad, but basically this:

That's it. I'm done.

In all seriousness, I think I'd rather watch the prequels than this.

It doubled down on every negative aspect of TFW, and removed most of the good.  There was very few things in this movie that legitimately entertained me.

 :?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on December 18, 2017, 05:19:36 AM


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: NowhereMan on December 18, 2017, 07:12:47 AM
So I had a broadly positive experience out of this. I'm not a super Star Wars nerd (in comparison to the people here, in normal life I probably do count) but this hit enough nostalgia hits and had enough good set pieces for me to enjoy it. There were a few subversive plot twists that worked to keep this from being a rehash of ESB in the same way TFA was a rehash of ANH. That said:



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 18, 2017, 08:21:52 AM
Kylo Ren in both films basically shows you that Anakin Skywalker could 100% have worked as a character if he'd been written by someone other than Lucas and played by someone other than Hayden Christiansen. In this film, he's pretty compelling--and he's a villain that you genuinely hate in part because of his arrested development.

As far as backstory, I'm pretty content with the broad outline that the whole series, prequels included, now offers:

a) The Republic was rotting away inside even without Sidious' machinations--its institutions weren't capable of dealing with the scale of its authority. A more compelling filmmaker than Lucas could have made that point without the dullness of tariffs-and-tax debates; it's there in the margins and edges of The Phantom Menace. The Jedi were part of the rot: they had mostly stopped contemplating the Force, mostly gotten used to having their own way, mostly too invested in their own hierarchy. Ascetic warrior monks tied to the energy of existence shouldn't be in a giant fucking office building in the middle of the capital hobnobbing with Senators and Chancellors, they should be in a cave somewhere, keeping their own counsel and valuing their mysteries.
b) Sidious nailed the Jedi because of this weakness and seized the Republic's military power. But he couldn't really stop the centrifugal forces already nipping at the Republic ("the more systems slip through your fingers"). There hasn't been an empire in history that can rule every part of a huge territory through direct force and military occupation. The Rebellion was just the Old Republic's loyalists trying to re-seize power, but in the meantime lots of star systems were going their own way and various kinds of lawlessness and disorder were on the rise--bounty hunters, crime syndicates, local piracy.
c) So when Sidious and Darth Vader die and the second Empire-bankrupting giant killer space station is destroyed, it's kind of easy to see why a lot of the bureaucracy of the Republic/Empire would be fairly glad to re-welcome the Republic leadership to power. But also why some of the Empire's military forces would fight on until being decisively beaten on Jakku.
d) But there's no reason to think that the new Republic's government would be able to solve the problems that both Republic and Empire had. And now they didn't even have their elite space wizard enforcer division and accompanying religious dogma to lean upon.
e) We already know that various generations of Force-devoted religious movements have scattered the entire galaxy with ruins, temples, Force-attuned artifacts, esoteric texts describing unusual disciplines, etc--the in-canon Clone Wars established that. With the galaxy in disarray for a generation, you'd fully expect that a whole new generation of self-trained Force wielders has been popping up all over the place, and that weird little Force cults and secret movements have been emboldened to step out of hiding.
f) TFA vaguely hints at the Republic's increasing fecklessness (if nothing else, because there's a Resistance that has to be secret from the Republic as well as the First Order). Not hard to assume that's driving the law-and-order types into the First Order, maybe especially if they hear there's an awesome Force-wielder guy in charge. Luke and Leia and Han all know who Snoke is, so there must have been a point where they met him or otherwise acknowledged his concrete existence (rather than supposing he was Ben's imaginary Dark Side friend who Ben says drives by in a white van and hands out Force candy).

All of that is pretty readily visible in the entire film saga + Clone Wars cartoon + Rebels, without even really dipping into new-EU stuff like the comics. It readily compresses into:


I don't know that I need more background on any of this. That's enough to make the story move along.

I do think both new films scarcely recognize the implications of Finn as a character, though. That's why the entire dumb casino plot in this one: they needed something for him to do. But this is a Stormtrooper who has made a different moral choice. That means both that all the others are choosing to commit genocide, etc., and are 100% morally culpable (including Kylo Ren, whose atrocities are almost oddly unremarked upon by Rey and Luke, who mostly seem hung up on his patricide and his killing of Luke's pupils instead). But it also means Finn is almost the only person in the entire saga who makes something like an adult moral choice while in possession of all the facts. (The Resistance seems oddly incurious about his potential as an intelligence asset, by the way.)


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on December 18, 2017, 09:28:29 AM
Hayden Christensen is a great actor, so are Natalie Portman and Ewan McGreggor. The shittiness of the prequels is entirely on Lucas.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 18, 2017, 09:42:19 AM
Non-spoiler Finn thing:  Yes every stormtrooper has freewill but these are also 100% brainwashed cultists.  The first order may be space nazis but it's not exactly a volunteer or even conscripted army, it's babies bred to be mindless order taking killing machines.  I just can't see any realm where they would be brought up on war crimes, well the storm troopers at least.

Spoiler Luke:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 18, 2017, 10:29:42 AM
I actually do need more backstory than has been provided. The First Order soldiers, military hierarchy and Sith Lords all seem incapable of doing anything with any semblance of competence, to the point that I want at least some explanation for who all these fuckers are and why they are threatening the galaxy. None of this has been established well in the movies at all. For the First Order, we have LITERALLY seen them exist as a garrisoning force on only one planet - the big Death Ball Planet. The only other place we've seen them has been in Star Destroyers or when they invaded the green bar planet in TFA. So the moviegoer has only ever seen evidence that they exist as a force on a planet that's now destroyed. The Republic is even worse because we've only seen them on the 3 planets that were destroyed in about 2 seconds in TFA. They weren't in evidence on Jakku, they weren't on the bar planet except as again, an invading force. The Resistance itself had the one base that we know of - again, on a planet that was mostly obliterated at the beginning of TLJ. At the very least, if either the Republic or the First Order was any sort of ruling force in the galaxy, we should have seen either or both of them on the casino planet with all that concentrated wealth but instead that place had its own security force that seemed autonomous from either organization.

None of these things should exist in a vacuum but it feels very much like they do. And I can't blame there not being enough run time in 2 movies for there to be some of this stuff explained because holy fuck, there's close to 5 hours of screen time so far. I should not have to be asking basic questions about a story like this after almost 5 hours. These things DO matter - and it doesn't have to be a whole thing but there has to at least be some evidence of any of these things.

And Snoke - man, he looked great in this movie and had real menace and I would have liked to see some history of him. Where he came from, why he'd never been mentioned in any of the Star Wars movies before, how he managed to infect and turn Kylo Ren.

Also, Kylo is NOT a compelling character when his mask is off. He's not a villain I hate so much as a villain I laugh at - his petulance and whiny baby tantrums are just irritating. Not as bad as Hayden Christiansen's Vader, but he's no Darth Vader.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on December 18, 2017, 11:04:11 AM
Ben Solo is about as compelling as a turd left on the left butt cheek of George lucas after he wipes his ass with toilet paper made of dollar bills. And even that sentence is more interesting than Ben Solo. Who I'm refusing to call Kylo Ren because its a shit name made by an emo edge lord who wanted to sound cool in front of his nazi homies. And saying Ben solo is better than Hayden Anakin is like saying ghost rider 2 is better than ghost rider 1. 


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 18, 2017, 12:06:32 PM
Compelling or not I do love that people hate kylo/ben simply for the fact that everyone jizzes in their pants the moment darth vader does something cool.  It's like people just ignore the thousands(billions if you count alderaan) of innocent lives vader alone killed. "but he's so badass!" is all people think and after a while I just get tired of that shit, so along comes a bad guy who you actually loathe as a human being and people can't stand it, it's hilarious. 

I love that the main complete is he's a whiny emo bitch who's not even that competent how is he in charge? Americans should know by now how that happens.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 18, 2017, 12:17:19 PM
I agree the first order are a problem. But I don't think back story would fix it.

The problem isn't how snoke came to power. It is where the order are now and how a FO hegemony is made believable.

The Last Jedi opening crawl did a better job of this than the entire previous film, but it is still really unclear.

Re: Kylo

I like the idea they have here that the villian should grow and not arrive fully formed. But would agree there are issues because tFA started really early in his development and didn't move it forward at all.

The Kylo/Rey scenes helped mitigate this for me.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on December 18, 2017, 01:06:18 PM
We don't loath him as a human being. We loath him for being a small child. And the movie keeps tell us, oh look here is your villain, oh look here is your antagonist who is suppose to give your hero this Rey character some type of obstacle to overcome. And we're giving nothing. Absolutely nothing. As if they were afraid of scaring small children. I know you want to think TFA and Last Jedi writers are making some grand Trump analogy that makes you feel clever on the inside. But the rest of us don't care. We don't want our Star Wars villains to be defeated because they have small hands. Or at least don't call it star wars. Call it liberals vs space trump. Or something else, so I don't have to watch it.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 18, 2017, 01:20:08 PM
Kylo Ren is a fantastic villain because you actually hate him the way you should hate a villain. He's a whiny, pissy little bad seed. He's what undisciplined anger and hatred and fear given superpowers ought to look like. Evil shouldn't be sleek and seductive and smarter than all the good guys, like Thrawn is, or more ULTIMATE POWAHFUL like Palpatine or more badass and stylish like Vader. It should be sullen and awful and self-indulgent and something that has to be fought and destroyed before it destroys everything.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Samwise on December 18, 2017, 01:24:52 PM
Going to see it this afternoon; I think MediumHigh's knicker-twisting is only serving to hype me up more.   :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on December 18, 2017, 01:27:23 PM
Kylo Ren is a fantastic villain because you actually hate him the way you should hate a villain. He's a whiny, pissy little bad seed. He's what undisciplined anger and hatred and fear given superpowers ought to look like. Evil shouldn't be sleek and seductive and smarter than all the good guys, like Thrawn is, or more ULTIMATE POWAHFUL like Palpatine or more badass and stylish like Vader. It should be sullen and awful and self-indulgent and something that has to be fought and destroyed before it destroys everything.

This. Evil is like Gollum not like Sauron.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on December 18, 2017, 01:33:39 PM
Yeah keep that to yourself. In a comedy "I'm soo pathetic hahah" works fine. Cause there is no stakes, no tension, no wondering why the intelligent officers around him doesn't just bump him down the steps at the first opportunity. But this isn't a comedy. This isn't a "isn't it ironic" type of movie. Fuck you kids have the lowest standards. Fucking Amazons The TICK had a better set of antagonist and even killed their kylo at the end of season 1, because morons like ben solo don't run organizations, their expandable fodder only allowed near power because they know a guy or nepotism. That what happens in a good series, this is obviously not a good series.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 18, 2017, 01:49:01 PM
Kylo Ren is a fantastic villain because you actually hate him the way you should hate a villain. He's a whiny, pissy little bad seed. He's what undisciplined anger and hatred and fear given superpowers ought to look like.

I dislike him, because he's Don, Jr. or Eric. And I'm not afraid of either one of those little punk bitches.

Vader scared the everliving piss out of me as a kid, and as an adult, he's still fucking menacing. This guy? I could take this guy and I am a fucking NERD.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 18, 2017, 01:51:02 PM
because morons like ben solo don't run organizations


My whole point with the Trump analogy is that yes, they do.  I'm not saying the writers are making a direct 1-1 political analogy with todays American politics, I am saying that the writers are acknowledging that people like this do exist and they do rise to power.  


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 18, 2017, 01:54:14 PM
Kylo Ren is a fantastic villain because you actually hate him the way you should hate a villain. He's a whiny, pissy little bad seed. He's what undisciplined anger and hatred and fear given superpowers ought to look like. Evil shouldn't be sleek and seductive and smarter than all the good guys, like Thrawn is, or more ULTIMATE POWAHFUL like Palpatine or more badass and stylish like Vader. It should be sullen and awful and self-indulgent and something that has to be fought and destroyed before it destroys everything.

This. Evil is like Gollum not like Sauron.

 

I really am looking forward to the proposed RJ trilogy though.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on December 18, 2017, 02:05:56 PM
I'm boggled by some of the opinions here - truly confused that people could take these insane positions and not be joking.  I don't see any reason to repeat things that have been said over and over already... but wow.  It is shocking that anyone would defend the weaknesses of this film - and even more shocking at who on these boards is doing it.  

I ... can't ... even.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on December 18, 2017, 02:14:33 PM
because morons like ben solo don't run organizations


My whole point with the Trump analogy is that yes, they do.  I'm not saying the writers are making a direct 1-1 political analogy with todays American politics, I am saying that the writers are acknowledging that people like this do exist and they do rise to power.  

And gets promptly stabbed in the back by the tywin lannisters of their world, or watch their empire fall into civil war as "the emperor is not wearing any pants" gets shouted at the top of every rooftop and government building. But we're now on the third movie in the franchise and gollum is ruling Mordor, feel the tension yet? :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: patience on December 18, 2017, 02:19:06 PM
Kylo Ren is a fantastic villain because you actually hate him the way you should hate a villain. He's a whiny, pissy little bad seed. He's what undisciplined anger and hatred and fear given superpowers ought to look like. Evil shouldn't be sleek and seductive and smarter than all the good guys, like Thrawn is, or more ULTIMATE POWAHFUL like Palpatine or more badass and stylish like Vader. It should be sullen and awful and self-indulgent and something that has to be fought and destroyed before it destroys everything.

You can be both. Hitler understood the theater of politics. Even though Trump kept Hitler's books teaching this at his bedside he was too dumb to implement it better than what he managed to do while campaigning, which was stool objectively subpar.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Abagadro on December 18, 2017, 02:22:29 PM
If you didn't get that Kylo is not the villain of this particular installment (in fact not a single person was) then we were watching different movies.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 18, 2017, 02:24:59 PM
because morons like ben solo don't run organizations


My whole point with the Trump analogy is that yes, they do.  I'm not saying the writers are making a direct 1-1 political analogy with todays American politics, I am saying that the writers are acknowledging that people like this do exist and they do rise to power.  

And gets promptly stabbed in the back by the tywin lannisters of their world, or watch their empire fall into civil war as "the emperor is not wearing any pants" gets shouted at the top of every rooftop and government building. But we're now on the third movie in the franchise and gollum is ruling Mordor, feel the tension yet? :oh_i_see:

Tywin Lannister is as much fiction as Vader.  Shitty, petty, unintelligent people rise to power in our world and they stay there, for quite a long time, even the worst dictators get decades in power. There is a very real argument to be made for wanting movies to be pure fantasy and to leave sad realities for the news but that's not the direction they are going with here.  It's fine to think it's a bad artistic choice but it's not unrealistic at all.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 18, 2017, 02:26:23 PM
If you didn't get that Kylo is not the villain of this particular installment (in fact not a single person was) then we were watching different movies.

Maybe that's the problem - Star Wars has always been about pretty stark good vs. evil, even when they've injected some true drama and pathos into it. It's a simplistic tale. Their attempts to "grey everything up" might have worked in a different series or if the writing was actually good enough for that to work, but neither is this a different series, nor are the writers good enough to pull it off.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on December 18, 2017, 02:50:37 PM
I thought it worked amazingly well.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Bunk on December 18, 2017, 04:26:15 PM
While I agree that the Casino planet overall was a weak act, they needed something to get a few plot points across:



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 18, 2017, 05:05:21 PM
The Casino stuff performed an amazing variety of plot-critical and theme-critical missions, it just did it inartfully and in a way that called attention to how plot-mechanical it all was.

Honestly, there are reasons that are completely legit to not like the film, but at least some of the people who don't like it are not liking it because it didn't play to their frozen-in adolescent assumptions about what a Star Wars film, or any film, needs to do.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Abagadro on December 18, 2017, 05:29:58 PM
It was in some ways a deconstruction of the mythos. I can see why people didn't like it but it is why I am liking it more and more in hindsight. Will require repeat viewings.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: lamaros on December 18, 2017, 06:43:05 PM
I'm boggled by some of the opinions here - truly confused that people could take these insane positions and not be joking.  I don't see any reason to repeat things that have been said over and over already... but wow.  It is shocking that anyone would defend the weaknesses of this film - and even more shocking at who on these boards is doing it.  

I ... can't ... even.


They loved TFA when it came out too. Give them a year and they will retcon how they felt about this.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: patience on December 18, 2017, 06:47:16 PM
 Ha you'll be waiting for eternity.

I love both movies. Tlj is better than tfa but because of what tlj is I'm very concerned how Abrams will handle the 3rd movie.

That movie will break or cement what tlj establishes.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Samwise on December 18, 2017, 06:53:25 PM
Just saw TLJ.  I liked it better than TFA but not better than ESB.  JJ will definitely fuck up the last one, and there will definitely be a forest planet, because all this has happened before.

I do give them credit for not hitting the exact plot points I'd guessed they would, but I still think the "omg avoid spoilers" was overblown.  I was more surprised by who DIDN'T die than by who did.

Watching this right after rewatching some of the OT was interesting -- the thing that really jarred me was how different Leia's accent is, I guess because she didn't have the energy to do the fake-royalty accent that she put on for the originals.  I thought Hamill did about as well as old Luke as Ford did as old Han, which is to say surprisingly well.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 18, 2017, 07:07:57 PM


Watching this right after rewatching some of the OT was interesting -- the thing that really jarred me was how different Leia's accent is, I guess because she didn't have the energy to do the fake-royalty accent that she put on for the originals. 

Jarring because of the time skip but considering she stopped being official royalty and had been living with rebels 50+ years, it makes sense she would lose the accent.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 18, 2017, 07:34:56 PM
I'm boggled by some of the opinions here - truly confused that people could take these insane positions and not be joking.  I don't see any reason to repeat things that have been said over and over already... but wow.  It is shocking that anyone would defend the weaknesses of this film - and even more shocking at who on these boards is doing it.  

I ... can't ... even.


They loved TFA when it came out too. Give them a year and they will retcon how they felt about this.

I am 100% I will love it even more. Even though I'm sure JJA will utterly fail to understand what he's been handed.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 18, 2017, 07:53:44 PM
Man, also, I continue to be fascinated by the idea that in an intelligent evil system, competent officers get rid of incompetent but powerful evil bosses who are going to wreak havoc if they're not put in check. How's that working out in the real world? How has it worked out in any world we know? The most fictional idea is that the Empire--or the Wehrmacht--was a bunch of ruthlessly efficient conquerors. Read your fucking history--or read the news. Competency doesn't beat evil, a lot of the time.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on December 18, 2017, 08:04:00 PM
We loved TFA because it was far better than the prequels. That doesn't mean we didn't see all the faults it had. It was no Phantom Menace, at the time that was a huge sigh of relief.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: IainC on December 18, 2017, 09:26:14 PM
I liked TFA, it was a good Star Wars film with some fairly obvious flaws that it mostly rose above. I feel the same way about TLJ. It is a good Star Wars film that does a decent job of repeating the beats of ESB without just rehashing the whole thing. The stuff about the Force was well done and should have been how the prequel trilogy explained it. The new space physics are stupid and jar with previously understood Star Wars space physics for no good reason.

I agree about the casino plot, there were valid reasons to have a side-quest happen, but it was handled badly and went on way too long. Also, it seemed thematically completely out of sync with the rest of the movie. I don't know if they were deliberately trying to contrast the desperate scramble for survival with the indulgent opulence of the casino planet, but it was far outside of the Star Wars style guide.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Abagadro on December 18, 2017, 09:50:05 PM
Quote
Also, it seemed thematically completely out of sync with the rest of the movie.

Holy moly. The casino trip is one the the thematic hearts of the whole thing.   I think people are so training in the SW universe to be atomistic and focused on individual people, and I think this film has much bigger things on its mind.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: IainC on December 18, 2017, 10:04:35 PM
I meant visually. The Star Wars universe has always been a very utilitarian and ascetic kind of place. Opulence is not really part of the visual lexicon, even in places like Cloud City or Coruscant.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: patience on December 18, 2017, 10:07:09 PM
The casino not fitting in thematically I can understand.


The reason they say this because the mini themes that revolve around Rose's character are more in your face to the point if you are still thinking about them you will gloss over every scene the casino section briefly alludes to the bigger story.


The casino story was framed heavily by themes of exploitation and liberation in the beginning and end. All the stuff in the middle that touches the primary themes by being in the middle were drowned out.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 18, 2017, 10:56:51 PM
The casino scenes were all tonally off, their aesthetic was completely non-Star Wars-y to the point of distraction. The character dialogue/exposition about the place took me completely out of the movie, as all I could think about was what a ham-fisted "1%er" allegory the whole thing was.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Abagadro on December 18, 2017, 11:07:02 PM
Next crawl has apparently leaked.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Abagadro on December 18, 2017, 11:35:59 PM
The casino scenes were all tonally off, their aesthetic was completely non-Star Wars-y to the point of distraction. The character dialogue/exposition about the place took me completely out of the movie, as all I could think about was what a ham-fisted "1%er" allegory the whole thing was.

I think there was definitely an element of that, but I don't think it was its main purpose.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 19, 2017, 06:59:55 AM
The prequels had some opulent locations--some parts of Coruscant, the capital of Naboo. I think maybe a Star Wars casino could be a bit...stranger? The games, the set-up, etc.

But the premise of the casino sequence is crucial--that what drives some people to the Resistance, maybe all of them besides the Skywalkers--is more than just space fascists. It's the moral rot of life in the SW galaxy: that people are suffering and dying for no reason at the hands of the rich, the powerful, the criminal. I think maybe this is what the Jedi lost when they became space cops working for a government: the charge to protect the weak, stop the strong, spread compassion, wherever they find it. Think of the constraints on Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon that we see in The Phantom Menace, which is kind of the only time we see "normal" Jedi life in the Old Republic. They're following orders, they're on task, they tolerate slavery when they come across it. The Rebellion, when it appears, is obsessed only with overthrowing the Empire's military power--it has no real vision of what government will be like afterwards. It doesn't even really have a sense of what was good and not so good about the Old Republic, from what we can see.

They needed this scene, but I almost wonder if they would have been better off in a cold open having Finn and Rose be sent to recruit the Master Codebreaker simply because the Resistance thinks they'll have a need for someone to crack First Order codes in general, so that they're out of the way when the chase starts. Then you have them coming back to a beacon with the chase underway without knowing what the status quo is; the crazy scheme to turn off the tracker unfolds, etc. The awkwardness of getting Finn and Rose to meet on board, sending them off and then getting them back, of the timing of their mission on the casino in relation to the peril of the fleet, etc, is part of what doesn't work about it.

----

On a separate subject, I'm kind of fascinated at how much people hate the humorous elements. Folks who apparently were totally cool with the ridiculous aliens in the bar in ANH, with the "we're all fine here now, thank you" scene on the Death Star, and with a fat dude named Porkins being blown up, seem to not be able to handle Luke's green milk, the caretaker frog-nuns, and Poe's communication to Hux. Every once in a while it was a bit much--the leprechaun alien with the monocle on the casino planet gets too much visual attention--but it was basically in line with a consistent element in the entire series.

There is a contingent of SW fans who are apparently in love with a SW series that has never really been that is super-serious and nothing but completely straight-forward lightsaber battles between utterly good and utterly evil characters, sort of like two hours of the big lightsaber set-piece of The Phantom Menace and the Luke-Vader duel of ESB repeated on a loop. I'm sure someone can do a supercut of Rey and Kylo against Snoke's guards for anybody in that camp so they don't have to watch the rest.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 19, 2017, 07:39:07 AM
As someone who liked the movie I agree that the purpose of the casino sidequest was important but yeah the execution was bad.  If I had to boil it down it just didn't feel alien enough, like Finn took a side trip to another movie universe for a few.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on December 19, 2017, 09:06:04 AM
It wasn't just the execution, it was that it really didn't really fit with the whole space chase with no way to escape thing they were doing. Apparently it was just that simple to come and go at will?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 19, 2017, 09:40:00 AM
Well I think that is more of a problem with the ticking clock conflict they set up.  They are surrounded by the strongest ships in the enemy fleet that just kinda sits around plinking away at their shields, doesn't seem to care about any escape pods and just wants to wait them out?  It would have made a LOT of sense if there was a line or two about how they wanted Leia alive to stand mock trial or some shit but no they just wanted the rebels dead so that whole a standoff scenario was just dumb.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: patience on December 19, 2017, 10:34:38 AM
They explained everything and when they didn't you can reasonably explain it yourself.


The Empire tracked them through hyperspace. This is the new super weapon for the trilogy.


Why didn't the first order notice rose and Finn leaving? Because the rebels had the tech to make their smaller ships harder to see in the presence of their larger ships. They reliably used this fact to escape to the planet.. the plan only failed because those 2 came back with an amoralist who outed them.

Why could rose and Finn go back and forth? Well you have to wrap your head around what hyper drives and faster than light communications mean for warfare. The rebels were confident their allies could reach them in a timely fashion and save them from the "outer" sectors. Their tech allows for this level of fast response.


The more important questions really are.

Why doesn't the first order jump ahead to quicken their task?

Doesn't this mean the death star is a big waste of money if any one could hyper drive ram into it?


I've thought about the second question and there is no specific answer to how powerful such a suicidal attack is. You can argue their shields are strong enough.

The first question though is harder to dismiss. Yes it would waste fuel but this was an important battle for the first order. Huxley was already rebuked by Snoke publicly so he would have incentive to being more aggressive. The early movies established jumping is complicated and computers have to do a ton of calculations to prevent the passengers from dying but there isn't any reason to believe they couldn't do a short jump.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Samwise on December 19, 2017, 10:51:55 AM
The casino was right out of a Bond film, or maybe a Star Trek holodeck.  It wasn't quite as bad as the diner in Ep 2 that was lifted from American Graffiti, but it did not feel Star Wars-y.

Hyperdrive suicide ramming was kinda dumb, but I'm figuring that it only works if you're willing to sacrifice a ship that's comparable in mass to the target.  Otherwise, duh, hyperdrive missiles.

That aside I thought the movie was pretty good.  As others have said, it's great that it gave such a big middle finger to the dumbest parts of previous Star Wars movies.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ironwood on December 19, 2017, 11:01:27 AM
Arg, so gave up on tags.  Good to know.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 19, 2017, 11:11:04 AM
I suppose on the "why not jump ahead of the Resistance fleet" question is that we've never seen capital ships or light fighters do that kind of precision hyperjumping to improve their battle position within a very small volume of space. Otherwise I think you'd see X-Wings hyperjumping constantly in order to appear behind a Tie Fighter and so on. Hyperjumps seem to always involve movement that is at least 1 AU or so.

I suppose another possibility is that the hyperspace tracking requires keeping constant sensor contact on your target. E.g., the First Order fleet is not tracking all hyperspace movement of all ships everywhere in the galaxy, only the hyperspace movement of the ships that were previously seen and plotted in regular space that were in proximity to the First Order ships. So if the First Order fleet itself goes into hyperspace, that might give the Resistance an opportunity to go into hyperspace itself and escape from being tracked.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 19, 2017, 11:46:49 AM
It felt to me that they invented tech reasons for story beats they'd already decided had to happen and just handwaved it away with "NEW TECH." Which is a very Star Trek thing to do and isn't really good storytelling.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on December 19, 2017, 11:59:25 AM
I can't even describe how silly, nonsensical and fan-fiction-y this film is.  Every time I start to respond to someone's excuses for this film, I find myself spiraling down a series of ridiculousness...

While the method of her idiocy is very different, the intensity of Rose's idiocy rivals the mighty Jar-Jar.  Someone needs to write a bad country music song about how she treats the guy she's crushing on.  
And we've seen short jumps into combat in the animated (cannon) series.  Also, you don't need precision jumping or for your entire fleet to jump.  And the idea behind how they're doing the tracking.... so dumb. 
So ... disappointed.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: satael on December 19, 2017, 12:09:19 PM
I was waiting for Half in the Bag's review (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9hwGZFPSmw) since I'm not that big of a Star Wars fan and it seems I'm going to wait until the blu-ray comes out to see this.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 19, 2017, 12:14:29 PM
About 3 minutes into that review and yep, I agree with what they said about this which is rare.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on December 19, 2017, 12:20:58 PM
Ok, so on the concept of inept evil.  At a base level, sure, many of histories monsters have not been Machiavelli masters.  But even Hitler, crazy and stupid as he was, was very adept in his recruitment, tactics, and administration.  Most of the nazi leadership, while crazy, was very effective and competent.  Stalin was very competent (and crazy).  Most of the effective dictatorships in history have very much been Tywin Lannister.  You get incompetent evil like Caligula in power randomly, but they always end up dead like him in short order.  The First Order as the alt-right seems ok if you look at it as Snoke dying and putting the two fuck nuts in power the same as Trump getting elected through are archaic and retarded election system.  Unfortunately, that means the opening scrawl of the next Star Wars movie must look like this if what you say is true:

Episode IX

The galaxy is in flames
The first order has collapsed and no longer exists
Kylo Ren, now supreme leader, attempted to conqure the galaxy
However, every time he ordered a new campaign, it was so badly managed, everybody died without firing a shot at the enemy.
When confronted by his commanders, he fired them for not being loyal, and complained about it on Space Twitter.
Eventually everybody turned on themselves and the entire organization went up in flames.
The new Resistance took credit for the defeat, even though they did not fire a single shot in the war.
Instead, they argued about ethics in game journalism and making the resistance more inclusive.
Engulfed in the flames of social justice war, they also were destroyed.
There is nobody actually running things anymore.

Trump and Bannon are not compelling villains, and neither is Kylo Ren.  Cool calculating evil has always existed and is far more scary than the Chaotic Evil characters that eventually eat themselves and do very little of long term consequence.

Now, to slightly backtrack, this film gave a lot more character and reason to Kylo Ren's actions.  After killing Snoke, revelations about how everybody sucks and its best to just be your own person make some sense.  But its still vague and half assed.  I STILL have no idea why the fuck he is the way he is.  Luke vaguly discovered that Snoke had somehow so thoroughly turned him dark side he was a black pit of evil even before he started murdering people?  Why?  There is some reason why people embrace the dark side, and I still haven't been given any reason at all why he did so.  I've seen lots of motivations for him trying to reach that total dark side and cut all previous cords, but it has no context than him wanting to live up to Vader now that he is Dark Side.  But there is no reason as to why he even wanted to go Dark Side other than 'A wizard Snoke did it.'  They really needed to develop Snoke more.  He is way more compelling of a character than anybody else on that side.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 19, 2017, 01:28:07 PM
I think this movie is about one thing: Failure. Absolutely everyone in this movie tried to do something and FAILED at it even when they succeeded.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on December 19, 2017, 01:34:39 PM
They explained everything and when they didn't you can reasonably explain it yourself.


The Empire tracked them through hyperspace. This is the new super weapon for the trilogy.


Why didn't the first order notice rose and Finn leaving? Because the rebels had the tech to make their smaller ships harder to see in the presence of their larger ships. They reliably used this fact to escape to the planet.. the plan only failed because those 2 came back with an amoralist who outed them.

Why could rose and Finn go back and forth? Well you have to wrap your head around what hyper drives and faster than light communications mean for warfare. The rebels were confident their allies could reach them in a timely fashion and save them from the "outer" sectors. Their tech allows for this level of fast response.


The more important questions really are.

Why doesn't the first order jump ahead to quicken their task?

Doesn't this mean the death star is a big waste of money if any one could hyper drive ram into it?


I've thought about the second question and there is no specific answer to how powerful such a suicidal attack is. You can argue their shields are strong enough.

The first question though is harder to dismiss. Yes it would waste fuel but this was an important battle for the first order. Huxley was already rebuked by Snoke publicly so he would have incentive to being more aggressive. The early movies established jumping is complicated and computers have to do a ton of calculations to prevent the passengers from dying but there isn't any reason to believe they couldn't do a short jump.

1) It’s hard to hyperjump short distances. You could go ahead but hen you would be so far away as to not be useful.

2) hyperjumping isn’t that precise. So you would have to get close to reliably suicide attack The only reason the cruiser was able to get in position was because the first order was shooting the transports and was ignoring the cruiser. There is a line specifically about this “Sir the cruiser is maneuvering” “ignore it, it’s empty”. Had they shot it instead it would not have succeeded is the implication

Also fuck the haters this movie was amazing

are: failure



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 19, 2017, 01:54:36 PM
On the competency of evil leadership, to say thinking that Hitler or other Nazis were competent administrators is simply factually incorrect--it is mistaking their propaganda for their reality. Hitler was good at two things: treachery and theatrical speech-making. The military leadership were largely competent but that's a different kind of thing--and they were defeated largely because the Nazi leadership in general was as blundering and arrogant and as prone to in-fighting as it was.

The Roman Empire had perhaps six or seven truly competent emperors in 150 years. All but two of them were NOT Tywin Lannister types--every single one of them was a person who had some degree of scruples or at least some partial benevolence: Claudius, Marcus Aurelius, Constantine, Trajan. The Tywin Lannisters were Augustus and Domitian, both of whom were simultaneously ruthless and skilled in wielding authority to build a more secure ruling structure.

The idea that competent underlings will always remove an incompetent figurehead is simply 100% unsupportable in human history. First, because incompetent figureheads don't often have competent underlings, and second because competent underlings often just let the incompetent do his thing as long as he doesn't fuck with the really important stuff. Third because when competent underlings do try to do something, they just as often end up dead, tortured, imprisoned or at best fired rather than pushing aside the leader.

If Star Wars wants to tell a story about the self-defeating character of evil--while also perhaps noting that "good" doesn't know how to stick the landing even when it has the upper hand--it would be telling a story with plenty of deep resonance with the history of humanity.

EDIT: Just to add this: if you want a story about competent lawful evil villains, you want a story where the good guys almost inevitably lose. Every single real human ruler that I can think of who was highly skilled and ruthless is a story of someone who stayed in power for a long time and built lasting systems and structures that weren't just about his own gratification. Augustus is a great example: he was unspeakably evil in his treatment of his enemies prior to his establishing a firm hold as the founder of the Roman Empire--utterly unrestrained, deeply cruel, etc. But he was rarely in it to gratify his own random or sinister impulses; he wasn't a sadist for the hell of it. And as a result, he swept the field of his enemies, both highly principled idealists and rivals for power.

A Star Wars story where that's really how the Empire or First Order runs is a story where they win. Which is kind of Luke Skywalker's apprehension when he makes fun of Rey's request that he come back and help them win.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Abagadro on December 19, 2017, 02:17:42 PM
Of course it's about failure. Yoda gives a giant speech about it.  Another undercutting of all the rending of garments major characters have done about failing each other throughout the series.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: IainC on December 19, 2017, 03:21:25 PM

Now, to slightly backtrack, this film gave a lot more character and reason to Kylo Ren's actions.  After killing Snoke, revelations about how everybody sucks and its best to just be your own person make some sense.  But its still vague and half assed.  I STILL have no idea why the fuck he is the way he is.  Luke vaguly discovered that Snoke had somehow so thoroughly turned him dark side he was a black pit of evil even before he started murdering people?  Why?  There is some reason why people embrace the dark side, and I still haven't been given any reason at all why he did so.  I've seen lots of motivations for him trying to reach that total dark side and cut all previous cords, but it has no context than him wanting to live up to Vader now that he is Dark Side.  But there is no reason as to why he even wanted to go Dark Side other than 'A wizard Snoke did it.'  They really needed to develop Snoke more.  He is way more compelling of a character than anybody else on that side.



Reminder that Anakin turning to the dark side basically went:

Anakin: The Jedi are assholes.
Palpatine: Sith get to have girlfriends.
Anakin: Really?
Palpatine: Sure, now go and murder a bunch of children for me.
Anakin: On it!


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on December 19, 2017, 03:45:04 PM
Re not understanding Kylos turn:

Kylo is conflicted because the dark side brings power. In the same way you’re tempted to do shitty things to get ahead in life.

Luke feels it because that is how this game works, and in a moment of weakness tries to kill Kylo (or gets close to looking like it)

Kylo feeling that the “light side” as represented by Luke, it’s primary disciple, has betrayed him says “fuck this shit I guess I am going to be evil now, you fucking hypocrites” which is a reasonable interpersonal response.

They also really do not need to develop snoke.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on December 19, 2017, 03:56:25 PM

Now, to slightly backtrack, this film gave a lot more character and reason to Kylo Ren's actions.  After killing Snoke, revelations about how everybody sucks and its best to just be your own person make some sense.  But its still vague and half assed.  I STILL have no idea why the fuck he is the way he is.  Luke vaguly discovered that Snoke had somehow so thoroughly turned him dark side he was a black pit of evil even before he started murdering people?  Why?  There is some reason why people embrace the dark side, and I still haven't been given any reason at all why he did so.  I've seen lots of motivations for him trying to reach that total dark side and cut all previous cords, but it has no context than him wanting to live up to Vader now that he is Dark Side.  But there is no reason as to why he even wanted to go Dark Side other than 'A wizard Snoke did it.'  They really needed to develop Snoke more.  He is way more compelling of a character than anybody else on that side.



Reminder that Anakin turning to the dark side basically went:

Anakin: The Jedi are assholes.
Palpatine: Sith get to have girlfriends.
Anakin: Really?
Palpatine: Sure, now go and murder a bunch of children for me.
Anakin: On it!

Considering he has dreams of his wife dying, a wife he has to keep secret or lose his job he spent training for since he was 8 years old. Oh and the guy your trusting is like "oh btw you may have the power to keep her from dying, I only have to teach you." Oh and his mom died while he is busy being a jedi, something he hasn't gotten over and strongly believes he could have changed. Thoughts that he knows is against the jedi code, a code he is losing faith in as he is unable to let go of his non-jedi attachments.

Meanwhile Ben
Snoke "you can be just like vader"
Ben " oh that sounds fun"
Luke the same luke who choose to go on a suicide mission to redeem vadar and refused to kill him because he is family suddenly "acts out of instinct" and goes "killing little Hitler isn't so bad, oh wait that's wrong, oops too bad i didn't have this moral conflict OUTSIDE THE TENT"
BEn "waaah my uncle tried to kill me, I time to go on a killing spree! DARKSIDE WOOOT"

One series of events is set up between 2 movies, doesn't require any outside source material to understand, and generally makes sense (though acting, directing, and the basics of movie keeps anyone of that from having the impact it needed)

Another series of events... Ben is evil. Reason? Rey gotta fight someone in the first movie.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on December 19, 2017, 04:08:17 PM
We do not see 99.9% of Kylo's turn.  What happens in the tent happens *after* the core of the turn - it is the coda of the turn.  We do not see how Snoke seduces Ben to the dark side.  We don't know much about it at all - just that Ben, while in Luke's training, was tempted to the dark side so completely that Luke, in a moment of self doubt, thought he was inescapably lost and considered going all 'Anakin on Padwan' on him. 

I don't want to see a repeat of Anakin and Palpatine.  But, I do want to see that story.

Of course, I'm starting to think that the next animated series (following Rebels) might very well be Jedi babies - the tale of Kylo as a Padwan in the dumpter fire jedi temple Luke set up.  We know that Hamil is up to do a voice for an animated series...



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 19, 2017, 04:35:55 PM
You may get to see that story someday. But it's not necessary to tell this one. I was surprised that they did as much as they did to get into the backstory of Ben and Luke--and that they did as much to make it seem morally ambiguous as they did.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 19, 2017, 05:06:03 PM
I think it might be time to take a step back and re-evaluate life choices once your vitriol for space fantasy movies reaches such critical mass.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on December 19, 2017, 05:07:42 PM
You may get to see that story someday. But it's not necessary to tell this one. I was surprised that they did as much as they did to get into the backstory of Ben and Luke--and that they did as much to make it seem morally ambiguous as they did.
What?  You were surprised to see them spend as much as a few brief moments telling us the motivation of two central figures in the movie, motivations that they'd majorly foreshadowed in the prior film?  The foreshadowing in the prior film is a big part of what makes this so vexing.  Chekhov's Gun.  If you foreshadow something so centrally in part of a story, you dang well better pay it off and make the foreshadowing relevant later on in the story.  They only add a flicker more to the foreshadowing in TLJ - they do not pay it off.  They need to pay it off.  

Maybe if the told us how Han and Leia's son, who was under the controlled tutelage of Luke Skywalker (a Jedi that had the Universe's most powerful reminder that a Jedi can be corrupted and result in disaster), could turn into such a whiny, tantrum throwing, hot mess we might be able to care about him as much as we should about Luke and Leia's kid.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Samwise on December 19, 2017, 06:48:21 PM
Wait, did MediumHigh just hold up the prequels as an example of good character development?  Because that's what I thought I just read and now I can't find my monocle.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on December 19, 2017, 07:09:31 PM
Wait, did MediumHigh just hold up the prequels as an example of good character development?  Because that's what I thought I just read and now I can't find my monocle.

I also pointed out that everything about that setup was done wrong so...keep looking for it.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on December 20, 2017, 12:10:43 AM
Loved every minute of it. Great show. Sorry you lot can't enjoy things, I sure don't envy you.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Velorath on December 20, 2017, 01:58:49 AM
Loved every minute of it. Great show. Sorry you lot can't enjoy things, I sure don't envy you.

Fuck off with that. I haven't even watched this yet but don't act like it's somebody else's problem that they don't like what you like.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: IainC on December 20, 2017, 02:21:55 AM
Or that accepting things uncritically is somehow better than acknowledging flaws and problems even in things that we do like. I enjoyed the film but it was not a good movie.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on December 20, 2017, 03:22:09 AM
It had flaws* but it was most definitely a “good” movie. A really really good movie.

*most notably the character arcs for the non-Jedi were thin.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on December 20, 2017, 03:25:07 AM
Loved every minute of it. Great show. Sorry you lot can't enjoy things, I sure don't envy you.

Fuck off with that. I haven't even watched this yet but don't act like it's somebody else's problem that they don't like what you like.

You wouldn't like it. You shouldn't waste your money.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on December 20, 2017, 03:36:39 AM
I'll admit I may be tilting at windmills a little harder here because so many people are playing off the criticisms of people as just not understanding this amazing master piece.  I fully accept we all have different opinions here, and don't mean to judge people for liking what they like.  Plenty of movies I like are hated here, and vice versa.

But I thought top to bottom the entire plot was just badly written (worst, lazy.  Instead of taking the time to come up with a logical flow for good story telling, shit just happened simply 'because') and I genuinely didn't like anything they did with the characters.  I also think people are projecting way to many of their own interpretations on to what I feel was basically a very shallow movie with none of the subtilties mentioned intentional.  There may have been good intentions in what they were doing, but just like how the prequels were destroyed by bad execution, so was this one equally.

It had its points, but just felt emotionally dead to me.  Beyond laughing at a few of the jokes, nobodies death or anything else caused any stirring of motion in me other than bordom.  It was a badly made movie, if perhaps entertaining.  I'm glad Abrams is coming back.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on December 20, 2017, 04:56:01 AM
Maybe? I mean I just don’t understand the criticisms you’ve put out. The plot is simple but not lazy. The main plot, like in many second acts, is a vehicle for the character progression. It neither needs to nor can be complicated; all it has to be is internallly consistent and sufficient to provide character interaction and growth.  And it is. The rebels are in crisis and everyone takes their own reaction in response to it. If it’s more complicated than that it gets in the way of the character growth through tribulation that is necessary for the payoff in the third act.


I do not understand what you mean of “shit just happened because” because everything had pretty clear purpose both in plot and in theme.

For instance it would be a valid criticism to say  “Taking Finn and Rose off of the cruiser separates the main cast in too many portions, giving some of them little to do and forcing “telephone” type conversations which are difficult to structure visually. Rather than amplify how they’re all in this together it separates them; which, while it works for the theme of the movie in that they fail when they do not act together it is not necessary and distances the audience from the drama. The movie wants us to follow three main threads, the Jedi, Finn and Rose, and Poe and the cruiser but the main characters in one of these are either incapacitated or in a perpetual waiting state making the purpose of those scenes solely to raise the stakes on the other two. Either Finn and Rose should have stayed on the cruiser and found their hacker their or there should have been radio silence once Finn and Rose left, with no information about what was happening on the cruiser except the shots from the bridge of Snokes ship as they pick off the stragglers running out of fuel. This would amply the tension and prevent dead weight on the run time.

But it’s not a valid criticism to say that the movie is lacking in “therefore” and is all “and then”. It has plenty of “therefore” and little “and then”. I am reading your criticisms and wondering if this is a clue situation. Emotionally dead?! Did they send a different cut to your theater?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on December 20, 2017, 05:39:15 AM
What I mean on lazy writing, and 'just because': 

A single damn cruiser can withstand all the firepower of an entire fleet of death stars and a new super star destroyer, just because.  It's hand waved away so they can have this made up slow speed chase that in not internally consistent at all.  Lazy.

Leia gets blasted into the vaccume of space for many minutes, which should have killed her dead, then just wakes up and forces herself back over just because, instead of a more believable scenario.  Lazy.

The entire mutinies against commander dumbass purple hair because she, for no reason what's so ever, tells them she is going to send them to their deaths without a plan, instead of revealing the plan.  Lazy.

Luke doesn't tell anybody he is stalling for time leading, again, to unearned tension.  Lazy.

Kylo Ren became evil and Luke tried to kill him just because.  Lazy.

Luke dies at the end, literally just because, for no reason.  Lazy.

Etc, ect, ect.  Like, this is really easy to fix shit, and its insulting they didn't bother.  The entire plot structure of the movie could have been rewritten to something else, and still kept in all the (Bad) story beats you guys love, while being a way better narrative.

I guess I could have been ok with the total half assed plot if it was just a vehical for "character progression".  But (and I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this) I felt the character progression has been pretty terrible.  I still sort of like Finn, but if they are going to make him fall in love with complete dumb ass "I must kill all of humanity to save my crush" Rose, he's a lost cause also.  I want everybody to lose now.  Maybe in Episode 9 the Trade Federation can come back and kill both sides to take control?

 


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: NowhereMan on December 20, 2017, 05:57:12 AM
The problem with the casino plot is twofold: 1 it's quite a jarring separation from the main plot (both visually and thematically) and 2 it is still tied into the main plot in a manner that doesn't make a lot of sense and kind of undercuts that main plot.

Abandoning spoilers now obviously: The Rebels are in, essentially, a high speed chase. Having people able to pop in and off ships during a high speed chase seems very artificial. As someone else suggested, if they'd run the casino thing with Finn and Rose already off from the fleet and find out about it (and the countdown starts) it wouldn't have been such an issue. Instead they went for some tech speak hand waving to justify them being able to leave the fleet during said chase and return to it later without getting into why the hell the FO can't do the same thing.

Ben could work, competence isn't necessary in an evil ruler but projecting power and control most definitely are. The FO needed a few more 'wins' achieved through competence to help establish them. Kylo Ren and Hux both needed to be able to portray some level of competent or inspiring leadership. Being a whiny baby in private is fine but they need to establish why people would be willing to follow both of them or at least why they were willing to follow Snoke (actually Ren's relationship with the military doesn't seem a million miles off from Vader's).

Finn's 'sacrifice' I think makes sense if it was obvious he wasn't going to make it in time, Rose just stopped him from dying in a doomed attempt. That fits with the lesson Po got after the bombing run and tracker sabotage: Taking huge risks and sacrifices still leaves you with the sacrifice and may or may not get you the desired result. Had that bomber chick not been able to kick that control unit and catch it in time to open the doors Po would have sacrificed all those pilots and bombers for no gain whatsoever. His high risk sacrifice with the tracker loses them Finn and Rose and compromises the thought through plan. If they had made it really obvious Finn was just on the verge of getting vaporised for no reason, Rose's move would have made more sense (plot wise, obviously it still doesn't make sense she was somehow able to overtake him when he was going full speed in a straight line).

Also Khaldun I take issue with your run down of Roman Emperors: No Aurelian or Diocletian in there? Also Constantine was not someone with a super strong moral core, he was at least as treacherous and conniving as Augustus in his rise to the top. Caracalla would have been a much better example of crazy evil than Caligula also, he managed to rule the Empire for 6 years despite murdering whole cities for making fun of him, having random senators executed and starting a war with Parthia for literally no reason by offering a marriage treaty and then attempting (and failing) to Red Wedding the Parthian royal family. Even then he only went down because he eventually failed enough that his pissed off army turned on him. Sorry, /historynerd


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on December 20, 2017, 06:21:29 AM
Oh yeah, forgot about that post.  I don’t consider most Roman Emperors evil or an example of it.  I picked Caligula off the top of my head because he was a crazy evil bastard.

Edit:  You also left out Vespasian and Titus from your list (though I guess the latter didn’t last long enough to make an impact).  No Hadrian?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 20, 2017, 07:12:00 AM
See, I also don't get this series of complaints, because they seem like lazy criticism, e.g., it's just rattling off epithets to describe imprecisely and generically a sensation of disliking the film. I get not liking that they didn't do with the characters what you wanted done, I get not liking the structure of the plot, but it's anything but lazy. It's essentially the opposite of lazy: it does unusual and provocative things with the characters. Lazy would have been, "Luke Skywalker does the grumpy Yoda thing, trains Rey to be an awesome Jedi in a quick montage, they fight Kylo Ren and then Snoke at the end and win; Poe Dameron has a brilliant desperate plan that against all the odds works and the Resistance escapes intact to save the day and Vice-Admiral Holdo admits Poe is a genius and also that she is falling in love with him". That's lazy writing.

What's also lazy criticism is applying complaints to one film that would essentially indict every single one of them.

Does Obi-Wan tell Luke a whole bunch of things that he ought to tell him in ANH? Nope. "Unearned tension".
Does it make any sense at all that this particular group of barely-competent fugitives should be able to sneak around the Death Star successfully (before Vader and Tarkin decide to put a tracker on the Falcon?) Not remotely.
Does a trash compactor as shown make any sense? Does the interior design of the Death Star make any sense?
Does the fact that the Death Star seems to only have about four to eight Tie Fighters total make any sense?
Why does the Empire not care about all the small fighters sneaking away from Hoth after the main transports have gotten away? Why not swarm the entire sector with Tie Fighters?
Does Yoda not telling Luke about his father prior to his father telling him make any sense? Why not get out in front of it? Unearned tension!
Does Yoda's method of oblique training in general make any sense?
Does a space worm make any sense? What's it eat, anyway? Why wouldn't Han know about such things?
How on earth does the implied time frame of Luke's time on Dagobah square with what's going on with the Falcon?

etc. None of these movies--and maybe no science-fantasy or science-fiction movie ever--really stands up if you're going to come at it with this kind of determination.


Sure, add Hadrian and Antonius Pius too. Vespasian was mostly just a guy who made a bridge to the Roman Empire as something other than the private property of the Julio-Claudians. I suppose you could add him to the Tywin Lannister list in that he was pretty ruthless. The point still stands: ruthlessly lawful evil dictators who are also great administrators who are appreciated by their subordinates are really rare in history; chaotic evil monarchs and dictators who indulge their own cruel and petty whims and eventually self-destruct or open up their rule to outside attack are regrettably common. If you want an evil Empire and a Supreme Leader, Kylo Ren is way closer to the mark, and a major reason why evil Empires can actually be fought and defeated by alliances of "good" nations and people.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on December 20, 2017, 08:30:18 AM
Well now you tolerated plot holes in the first trilogy. so my glaring death star sized plot holes and cannon disrespect are ok guys, fake criticism. Only type of people who make those analogies are presidents we dont like and fanboys. I can list flaws from plot progression, character motives, behavior, character arc. I can list the number of time our movie director forgot how space fucking works. I thought we stopped doing that in 2017. But its a master piece because it subverted expectations!! Yes so is eating french fries with left out mayo.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 20, 2017, 09:10:45 AM
Tell me, how does space fucking work? Protip hint: hyperdrive isn't real.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 20, 2017, 09:19:52 AM
Or that accepting things uncritically is somehow better than acknowledging flaws and problems even in things that we do like. I enjoyed the film but it was not a good movie.

It was an entertaining movie to watch but unless the movie just blows me away on some level, there's rarely a movie that I can watch without analyzing and critiquing it. As a writer, I cannot turn that part of my brain off and I don't want to. That's part of my enjoyment of watching film, or reading books, is to see how it was done and how I might do it differently. I'm perfectly capable of enjoying shitty shit movies, and getting enjoyment out of watching and critiquing them (see my reviews on Uwe Boll movies). I can watch the D&D movie for example, which is literally cinematic bubonic plague, and still enjoy it. That doesn't make it a good movie nor does it make me liking it somehow a bad thing.

If you (not IainC but the thread in general) like TLJ, great for you. I enjoyed watching the movie but unlike other movies I've enjoyed watching, I couldn't help dissecting it while watching the movie. It's flaws were that apparent. I don't fault them for trying some different things. I fault their execution of those attempts, because the execution was really messy.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 20, 2017, 09:42:51 AM
Tell me, how does space fucking work? Protip hint: hyperdrive isn't real.

Also:Laser swords.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 20, 2017, 09:55:24 AM
Look, I normally dissect stuff too. And I dissected this as it went along in the same fashion. I really felt there was only one thing not working for me, and that was the clumsiness of how it moved Finn and Rose to where they needed to be. The chase could have been handled somewhat better in terms of establishing the basic dilemma--they were basically ripping off "33" from Battlestar Galactica and as long as they were going to do that, they could have stuck closer to the beats of that plot--something where the Resistance fleet can only get away for a short while and they've seemingly got nowhere to hide and no real hope of assistance. That might have solved the clumsiness of the casino plot--Holdo keeps the idea of misdirecting the First Order pursuers while going to ground hidden from Poe and everyone else because they're not sure if the way they're being followed is via a hidden traitor or something else, so it's need-to-know, and Poe decides to quietly send six or seven mission teams on a variety of desperate hail-mary things, including breaking into First Order code security on board the flagship to see how the tracking is being done. That could mount the tension as news of the missions failing or turning up nothing come in, until Poe hears from Rose and Finn that they've got a slicer and tells them to get on board the flagship.

But the basic thing worked beautifully, I thought: it kept you guessing throughout, it kept subverting your expectations, it had some beautiful set-pieces, and maybe the best acting in a Star Wars film since Alec Guinness. Hamill gave a fantastic performance, maybe partly because of his discomfort with what Johnson wanted from him. I genuinely *enjoyed* the film as well as admired the tactical moves it made within the overall IP.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Quinton on December 20, 2017, 10:15:34 AM
But the basic thing worked beautifully, I thought: it kept you guessing throughout, it kept subverting your expectations, it had some beautiful set-pieces, and maybe the best acting in a Star Wars film since Alec Guinness. Hamill gave a fantastic performance, maybe partly because of his discomfort with what Johnson wanted from him. I genuinely *enjoyed* the film as well as admired the tactical moves it made within the overall IP.

I felt like it consisted of a ton of scenes and set pieces that were fantastic, but didn't hang together as well as they could as a movie.

But it also didn't just retread a previous movie, putting it way ahead of TFA.

I loved that they just nuked the JJA "mystery boxes" of Rey's parentage (yay she's just somebody strong in the force, not yet another special skywalker) or Snope's background (who cares, he's toast now).

Hamill gave us a fantastic grouchy hermit Luke and some quality badassery in the confrontation with Kylo. 

Strong agreement with your assessment that they should have borrowed from "33".  If it the Empire could track them, but it took a bit of time, it would make the side-quest stuff with Luke & Rey and Rose & Finn fit together much better time-wise.  Instead we spend the movie intercutting between "the death star will be within firing range..." and two other plots that are operating on completely different timescales.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 20, 2017, 10:25:53 AM
But the basic thing worked beautifully, I thought: it kept you guessing throughout, it kept subverting your expectations, it had some beautiful set-pieces, and maybe the best acting in a Star Wars film since Alec Guinness. Hamill gave a fantastic performance, maybe partly because of his discomfort with what Johnson wanted from him. I genuinely *enjoyed* the film as well as admired the tactical moves it made within the overall IP.

SPOILERS! Fuck the tags, it's spoiler time and I'm lazy.

But it DIDN'T work beautifully, IMO, it fell apart in fact. Keeping you guessing and subverting expectations - yeah it did that. However, most of the time it felt like they subverted expectations not because it made sense within the story but simply BECAUSE you (or the fans) had a specific expectation. Killing Snoke so quickly? DIDN'T EXPECT THAT! (I actually did not mind that, I just wanted to know more about Snoke before he got kacked). Rey's parents are nobody? DIDN'T EXPECT THAT!!! (I also thought that was great - if she'd been a Skywalker, then all we have is a galaxy-wide, generations-long family feud and it's a really boring story to tell). The kid with a broom is a Jedi. DIDN'T EXPECT THAT!! (Wasn't surprised by that at all, in fact. It was a little ham-fisted and telegraphed the minute those kids were shown but I didn't really have any issues with it).

Luke tried to kill Ben? Again, I don't have a problem with it but from what the audience is shown (as in don't expect me to have read some prequel backstory novel, SHOW ME ON SCREEN, DON'T JUST HAVE THE CHARACTERS TELL ME), that's the entire reason for Ben's betrayal. We are told that Snoke had already gotten to him but we have no actual onscreen evidence of that. We are just told that Snoke is the powerful leader of the First Order but not why or how and based on his pretty predictable death, it feels odd. And again, Snoke is a compelling villain to me with real menace displayed in that one scene with Rey, more so than anything Kylo Ren has displayed since he force stopped the blaster bolt at the beginning of TFA.

Maybe there are things that the 3rd movie will reveal that will help mitigate the problems I had with this one - I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on that. But since I haven't seen that movie yet, I can only go with what's on screen.

The entire Resistance plot from the minute Poe Dameron gets demoted feels forced and tired. The casino is only a part of it. The deadly dangerous cruiser chase got drained of every ounce of tension the minute Rose and Finn were just able to jet away without anyone giving a shit. The mutiny by Poe and the reactions of Holdo all felt really forced without any hint of tension, mostly because they went on too long and involved way expecting the audience to take way too many leaps of faith based on characters we've barely met (i.e. Poe, Rose and Holdo - by the time we see both in this movie, Poe had almost no screen time in TFA so his character was still a blank).


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 20, 2017, 11:18:34 AM
Poe is an utterly familiar archetype, though (Leia even calls him out for BEING that archetype) and the trope of "I have to commit mutiny on behalf of my desperate plan to save us all because the horrible bureaucratic unimaginative leader who has no plan is going to get us killed" is equally familiar--and almost never subverted this way. I'm not sure you need to know more about him until we get to the very very end and discover that Leia's faith in him is justified--that he has the potential to grow beyond being an impulsive "heroic" type. Now he's got an arc, he's not just a squished together version of Wedge Antilles and Han Solo.

But then, this is Star Wars, where some fans think that a character who got two meme-worthy lines and zero character development in films made over three decades ago somehow needs to be given an elaborately staged death scene.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: BobtheSomething on December 20, 2017, 12:02:39 PM
Or that accepting things uncritically is somehow better than acknowledging flaws and problems even in things that we do like. I enjoyed the film but it was not a good movie.

This is where I am.  I really enjoyed the character arcs and themes, and had fun during the set pieces, but I can see that there is no level of the film, from the small details to the overarching plot that isn't deeply flawed.  I might even call it a good movie based on what it delivered, but as a Star Wars movie it was at least as poor as TFA.

And by flawed I mean stupid.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: BobtheSomething on December 20, 2017, 12:12:55 PM
Tell me, how does space fucking work? Protip hint: hyperdrive isn't real.

No, but the rules governing it have been broadly outlined.  If hyperspace ramming was an effective tactic, we would have seen it used before.  If you could jump inside someone's shields with precision, we would have seen it before.

By forgoing following all the rules of the setting, the new movie sacrifices any future attempts to build drama based on any established constraints, since we know they can be dropped for flexible reality as soon as it's convenient. 

What would you think of Murder on the Orient express if the solution to the murder involved a US Marine with a cloaking device?  That's totally not how the rules of a mystery work, right?  So why is it okay to pull unworkable solutions out in an established setting and claim that this time they work because drama?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 20, 2017, 12:43:18 PM
Star Wars isn't quite as casual as Star Trek about introducing technical principles in one episode that it will completely forget in the next episode, but on the other hand, one of the things we've seen about Star Wars is that this galaxy is actually quite technologically stagnant. Granted that KOTOR isn't canon now, it nevertheless showed a galaxy that was a long time ago before the present long time ago where almost all the major technologies of space travel, warfare and so on were nearly the same. In fact, I think it's pretty fair to say at this point that the SW galaxy is trapped in a series of recursive cycles that include its technology. When they build new ships, they just build bigger versions of the old ships, typically. This kind of suggests that people are pretty unimaginative in terms of battle tactics as they relate to the technology. This even includes building giant planet-killing weapons; the old EU suggested that this was something that just happened over and over again. Even in the new canon, the First Order continues to refuse to build adequate defenses against small fighters despite being undone by them repeatedly in fleet engagements for the last seven decades.

The hyperspace tracker might be the first thing we've seen in any space battle in Star Wars where the participants regard it as a new and unsettling technology that completely disrupts their usual tactics. I could imagine that in that kind of fictional universe, other tactics that are technologically plausible have just never been tried because everyone has a static view of technology. The only other people we've seen getting even a bit tricky with stuff are smugglers like Han Solo--the Empire and Rebellion just seem ponderous and conservative in these terms.

So maybe Holdo decides to do something that honestly hasn't occurred to others. The real trick is whether the next movie remembers that change in the status quo. It might be that the ship size required to do it in a damaging way is so large that the Resistance will never have more than one or two capable vessels, unlike the First Order.

(I'd really like the series to start taking seriously the question of how the Empire/First Order can make such large numbers of very very large fleet vessels, though--the fact that the Rebels/Resistance have so few is a pretty good indicator that they don't grow on trees.)


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: BobtheSomething on December 20, 2017, 12:51:49 PM
So it's not that Star Wars is stupid, but that everyone in Star Wars is stupid?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: BobtheSomething on December 20, 2017, 12:54:05 PM
The empire built the second Death Star in what, three years?  There's no way a dedicated shipyard with existing plans would have trouble churning out a small fleet of ships.

The problem with the fleet sizes we see on screen is, again, stupid.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on December 20, 2017, 12:57:58 PM
So it's not that Star Wars is stupid, but that everyone in Star Wars is stupid?

I wouldn't say stupid. Star Wars in some ways reminds me of the tabletop game Battletech. If you've never played, this is a universe that is in a technological dark age. They've lost the ability to make a lot of new things and just keep repairing and reusing old things. Another good example is Warhammer 40k where no one understands their technology and the techpriests more or less pray to it to get it working. (in some versions of the universe at least.)

Star Wars has been stagnant for centuries as far as tech goes. You see small iterations in the tech but nothing massive. Like...hyperdrives might get a bit faster but no entirely new means of space travel is invented. Fighters might get a little better, capital ships have a few more guns and get bigger, etc.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 20, 2017, 12:59:12 PM
(I'd really like the series to start taking seriously the question of how the Empire/First Order can make such large numbers of very very large fleet vessels, though--the fact that the Rebels/Resistance have so few is a pretty good indicator that they don't grow on trees.)

Well, we've seen the rich people who sell them the weapons (both sides) but we have no actual evidence that the Resistance, or the Republic, or the First Order actually has a working economy of any kind. All we have seen of the First Order in particular is that they controlled one planet that they turned into a planet killer and that they somehow have a military that can invade a small bar in a backwater, but we don't even know if they have a "home planet" or headquarters since Snoke was apparently based on a ship himself.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: BobtheSomething on December 20, 2017, 01:22:41 PM
So it's not that Star Wars is stupid, but that everyone in Star Wars is stupid?

I wouldn't say stupid. Star Wars in some ways reminds me of the tabletop game Battletech. If you've never played, this is a universe that is in a technological dark age. They've lost the ability to make a lot of new things and just keep repairing and reusing old things. Another good example is Warhammer 40k where no one understands their technology and the techpriests more or less pray to it to get it working. (in some versions of the universe at least.)

Star Wars has been stagnant for centuries as far as tech goes. You see small iterations in the tech but nothing massive. Like...hyperdrives might get a bit faster but no entirely new means of space travel is invented. Fighters might get a little better, capital ships have a few more guns and get bigger, etc.

I'm not talking about technological stagnation.  There are dozens of plausible reasons for that that don't require stupidity.   I'm talking about no one thinking of using fast mode to smash big thing into bigger thing.  No one building more AA or sending fighter screens against small one man ships that always ruin our best shit.  Not splitting up the fleet knowing only one ship can be tracked, or sending off larger numbers of side quest dudes to evacuate the ship, grab fuel, whatever.  The film is filled with stupid moments that exist so that the director can have his good moments without apparently thinking too hard.




Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: schild on December 20, 2017, 01:26:38 PM
So it's not that Star Wars is stupid, but that everyone in Star Wars is stupid?

It's both, but motherfuckers put goddamn critical thought on hold when it comes to this garbage property because Leia wore a bikini when they were fucking 11 or something and all they want is a light saber forever and ever.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on December 20, 2017, 05:35:45 PM
So it's not that Star Wars is stupid, but that everyone in Star Wars is stupid?

I wouldn't say stupid. Star Wars in some ways reminds me of the tabletop game Battletech. If you've never played, this is a universe that is in a technological dark age. They've lost the ability to make a lot of new things and just keep repairing and reusing old things. Another good example is Warhammer 40k where no one understands their technology and the techpriests more or less pray to it to get it working. (in some versions of the universe at least.)

Star Wars has been stagnant for centuries as far as tech goes. You see small iterations in the tech but nothing massive. Like...hyperdrives might get a bit faster but no entirely new means of space travel is invented. Fighters might get a little better, capital ships have a few more guns and get bigger, etc.

I'm not talking about technological stagnation.  There are dozens of plausible reasons for that that don't require stupidity.   I'm talking about no one thinking of using fast mode to smash big thing into bigger thing.  No one building more AA or sending fighter screens against small one man ships that always ruin our best shit.  Not splitting up the fleet knowing only one ship can be tracked, or sending off larger numbers of side quest dudes to evacuate the ship, grab fuel, whatever.  The film is filled with stupid moments that exist so that the director can have his good moments without apparently thinking too hard.




People almost certainly thought about it but it’s expensive and hard to pull off. You have to get a big ship close enough to target an enemy while not getting destroyed. If your ship is strong enough to withstand the barrage from the enemy then why suicide it? Might as well use it as intended. If your ship is not then you get pasted trying the maneuver

Why didn’t the cruiser get pasted you say? well they explained this in the movie. It didn’t get pasted because of a tactical error from the first order. They chose to shoot the ships that had combatants on them thinking that the cruiser was going to warp out as a decoy. It is even forshadowed earlier in the movie because Hux is shown to be manipulatable when he ignores the snub fighter and does not launch fighters, letting Poe clear the surface cannons.

It’s all in the movie for you to see and hear. And maybe you don’t like it, fine, but it’s not lazy or inconsistent.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: IainC on December 20, 2017, 06:10:26 PM
People almost certainly thought about it but it’s expensive and hard to pull off. You have to get a big ship close enough to target an enemy while not getting destroyed. If your ship is strong enough to withstand the barrage from the enemy then why suicide it? Might as well use it as intended. If your ship is not then you get pasted trying the maneuver
Space is full of rocks. Put a hyperdrive on something with a bit of mass and go capital ship bowling.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 20, 2017, 06:28:21 PM
Look at it this way. You could have flown a plane into a skyscraper on purpose almost any time after 1965 and done a lot of fucking damage. It's now emerged that the PLO actually had a discussion about whether to do it, and they chose not to specifically because they thought it wouldn't accomplish anything except making people furious. It took thirty-five years for someone to decide that it was an asymmetrical tactic worth trying.

Any power on Earth could build a bunch of relatively disposable aircraft and put pilots on board them and plow them into military assets of an enemy country. They mostly don't because mostly there are better ways to use the human and industrial assets required. Japan did it because they were running out of munitions, they were desperate, they had a kind of cultural concept that made it ideologically plausible. You could ask, "Why doesn't the United States just have human pilots crash heavily fueled obsolete jetliners into terrorists rather than drones? It would work!" only you'd be all kinds of stupid if you did.

The capital ship used in this case was the only ship like that left to the Resistance. Even at the Rebellion's height, it only had a few ships of that size and power. No other power in the galaxy during the entire duration of Star Wars has really had capital ships of that size--the closest besides the Old Republic and the Empire was the Trade Federation. The only power we've seen that might say, "Fuck it, use our huge capital ships on suicide hyperspace runs" would be the Empire/First Order, and they have a giant ideological bias against doing that kind of thing. Plus, we've seen that their engines are comparatively slow, so maybe they might not even be able to.

I can see thinking the basic chase sequence itself is flawed in plot-mechanical terms, but not Holdo's hyperspace kamikaze. That makes perfect sense in-universe both as a tactic and as something people would not previously have done.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Abagadro on December 20, 2017, 07:12:58 PM
No one had thought of the Picard Maneuver until he did it.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ginaz on December 20, 2017, 07:30:11 PM

Hamill gave a fantastic performance, maybe partly because of his discomfort with what Johnson wanted from him. I genuinely *enjoyed* the film as well as admired the tactical moves it made within the overall IP.

Ok, while I love Mark Hamill, he isn't really a good actor.  He never has been and that didn't change here.  He wasn't Hayden Christianson/Jake Lloyd awful but his performance was anything but fantastic.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Abagadro on December 20, 2017, 07:39:46 PM
With all the crabbing about tech and tactics, I'm surprised no one has complained about WWII style belly-drop bombers..... in 0 G (of if they did I missed it).


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 20, 2017, 08:04:45 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIY-PsHrj9A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIY-PsHrj9A)

Some people are propping this up as validation for Luke criticisms of the movie but to me it's the opposite.  Hamill spent three+ decades being worshiped and idolized by fans and he thinks Luke should be flawless? "Jedi never quit." I mean, except obi-wan...or yoda...or the dude in rebels who quit for a while. 


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MournelitheCalix on December 20, 2017, 08:49:46 PM
Their attempts to "grey everything up" might have worked in a different series or if the writing was actually good enough for that to work, but neither is this a different series, nor are the writers good enough to pull it off.

Pretty much encapsulates my thoughts on it as well.  The problem with this new series is there is no plan other than to recreate a lesser reimagined original.   Plot lines are largely the same, the themes don't respect its own lore and what is worse they jettisoned the EU so that they could respect their own lore.  Its almost like they are wanting to rehash the old story in a new telling.   So after they destroy the "Deathstar pt 2" they have the empire reeling right?  No the Empire... first order now controls almost everything and the republic...err rebels are a small under funded rag tag group again.  Almost every story line rehashed over and over again, only this time done much worse.

They don't respect the original, trillogy or what was gained by that war and now they don't respect even their own retelling of the original trilogy.  Where are these knights of ren?  Why did Luke leave the bread crumb trail in the first movie when in the second movie he clearly doesn't want to be found.  It just seems like its bad writing and what is worse aimless writing.  Another thing that seemed really strange, the entire movie was a lets deceive the viewer movie.  It rarely advanced the narrative and seemed to want to play gotcha over and over again in a way that even cheapened itself.   An example was when Luke is about to burn the "Jedi Tree" and the writings within.   So who does it, Yoda?  WTF?   Oh wait fast forward to the end of the movie and.... Gotcha!   Rey now has the books so they didn't burn up in the "Jedi tree" fire!  This is one of about what 20 examples of the "gotcha" writing.

Another problem, the entire writing staff had no idea how to incoporate the greatest iconic hero of the past four decades in a manner that was both respectful to its roots and compelling to advancing a narrative.  This is not Luke Skywalker.  Sorry but there is no way Luke would try to kill his nephew, son of his twin sister and greatest friend.   The guy who didn't want to kill wampas after they nearly ate him, wouldn't have tried to murder his nephew.  Skywalker the guy who tried to redeem his cybernetic, murderous father wouldn't have just tossed the lightsaber behind his back like it was nothing more than an inconvenience.   Hamill did a great job, but he was right this is not Luke.  This was a Rian Johnson pissing on the memory of the original trilogy, the fans, and the lore.   The whole damn writing in this series is:   Aimless.  Incompentent.   Disasterous.   That is the only way to describe both the writing and the execution of The Last Jedi.  J. J. Abrams has his work cut out for him because what should have been a home run and a victory lap is now a dumpster fire and I really have no idea how they are going to come back from what I just watched.  Whats even worse I really don't think that I care enough to find out.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: BobtheSomething on December 20, 2017, 09:15:19 PM
With all the crabbing about tech and tactics, I'm surprised no one has complained about WWII style belly-drop bombers..... in 0 G (of if they did I missed it).

This movie has so many stupid moments or ideas or conceits that even something as eye rolling as that doesn't make it into the top 20.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 20, 2017, 10:19:29 PM
The bombs themselves could be magnetic, or heat sensing, or have their own guidance system and propulsion that doesn't require there to be gravity for them to work. I was not bothered by the bombers at all. As for the light speed ramming, I don't even care if it's not something that's been seen before - it looked goddamn incredible and was one of the truly surprising and entertaining parts of the movie. I'll let "rule of cool" excuse that one. Same goes for Luke getting bombarded by AT-AT's Mk 2.0. It did look cool.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Draegan on December 20, 2017, 11:44:35 PM
Saw this tonight and I agree with Khaldun's points mostly. I loved this movie, but I'm still processing it.

Did anyone else see the Jedi books in a drawer in the falcon? Thought I saw something.

Also my only big question for th future right now is that the Empire is being run by a whiney brat and a ginger who gets publically mocked. The next movie will probably skip years ahead. Will we see kylo grow up and become a more grown up and secure bad guy?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: veredus on December 21, 2017, 12:48:29 AM
Ya I thought I saw those books too but wasn't sure since it flashed by so fast.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Soln on December 21, 2017, 01:42:36 AM
I just saw it.  I have not read the last X number of pages nor did I to the run up.  Was unspoiled.

Felt very uneven.  Some big unnecessary diversions.  It was “fine “ in only how a SW film can disappoint you.  A lot of missed chances.

Best parts:
Not a rehash of Empire.
Some OK humor.
Mark Hamill.
Javier Bardem.
Luke’s finale.

Worst parts:
Unnecessary meandering narratives.
Laura Dern. Should’ve been an alien.
Magic Leia
Horse Kids
Horse Kid Disney scene as end
Rose.  I’m sorry but if Disney said we needed more plus sized Asian actresses that’s fine.  But THAT actress was not impressive.  And I’m sorry but my God she is uncharismatic.  Could they not have found anyone better?

So yeah.  A typical SW film filled with some gems and some disappointments.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Velorath on December 21, 2017, 02:31:44 AM
Loved every minute of it. Great show. Sorry you lot can't enjoy things, I sure don't envy you.

Fuck off with that. I haven't even watched this yet but don't act like it's somebody else's problem that they don't like what you like.

You wouldn't like it. You shouldn't waste your money.

At the very least you could ask for some pictures of my movie collection or request a top 50 list from me or something before trying to determine that.

I actually watched it earlier today since I had the opportunity to take my Dad to see it. I'm not a huge fan of it overall but I don't find it offensively bad. There are moments I liked, I think most of the performances are pretty good, and there's some cool cinematography and imagery as well.

While there are some bits that just didn't work for me, my overall issues with the movie were more in regards to the narrative structure and pacing (although I don't want to rehash comments others have made about the Casino stuff here). Now I recognize that all the SW movies have a habit of meandering about quite a bit so I'm not suggesting that it's a problem unique to this one, but it felt uneven enough to be really noticeable here.

A large part of the plot is "First Order pursues Resistance in slow speed chase waiting for them to run out of gas". It's a very odd plot device to build the tension around because the ticking time bomb here is depicted in the visual of the Resistance ships slowly moving across screen getting pelted by energy. It didn't feel particularly dramatic to me any time we'd get a reading of the current amount of fuel left, and for the middle of the movie made the potential total annihilation of the Resistance feel like such a small scale thing that could be depicted in a single wide-shot if the First Order caught up to them. This isn't helped by Snoke's ship being present due mostly to geographic convenience so every character could end up in the same part of the galaxy for the second half of the movie. Gone is any sense of a galactic-scale war going on which also makes Poe's willingness to sacrifice so many people at the start all the more baffling. If they want to do a story about the Resistance being on the verge of collapse that's fine but it felt like they skipped over a bunch of chapters to get there.

Also I was waiting for that kid at the end to ask someone to tell him another story about The Shepard.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 21, 2017, 02:35:03 AM
Question for people who hate that the evil mastermind in a trilogy of films is never fleshed out beyond 'I'm an evil guy in a robe who appears in one film in a single scene as a hologram, and in just two scenes in the only other film I appear in'. Also for people who really hate trilogys where we don't see how the evil mastermind turned his right hand  man to evil...

Why is all of this OK for you in the OT?



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on December 21, 2017, 02:39:15 AM
People almost certainly thought about it but it’s expensive and hard to pull off. You have to get a big ship close enough to target an enemy while not getting destroyed. If your ship is strong enough to withstand the barrage from the enemy then why suicide it? Might as well use it as intended. If your ship is not then you get pasted trying the maneuver
Space is full of rocks. Put a hyperdrive on something with a bit of mass and go capital ship bowling.

How do you get the rocks close enough to shoot?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: IainC on December 21, 2017, 03:03:02 AM
The bombs themselves could be magnetic, or heat sensing, or have their own guidance system and propulsion that doesn't require there to be gravity for them to work. I was not bothered by the bombers at all. As for the light speed ramming, I don't even care if it's not something that's been seen before - it looked goddamn incredible and was one of the truly surprising and entertaining parts of the movie. I'll let "rule of cool" excuse that one. Same goes for Luke getting bombarded by AT-AT's Mk 2.0. It did look cool.
If they had some kind of guidance or whatever, they wouldn't need to be deployed from something that flies very slowly directly over the target. You cold launch them from anywhere and watch them fly to their target without exposing a crewed ship to unecessary danger. Gravity bombs are more or less obsolete even with 21st century Earth tech.

<Stuff about using capital ships as hyperspace bombs>


Which is why you don't use a ship. You just put a hyperdrive unit on a rock with a remote control system. You're right that we don't go and crash F-22s into Hi-Luxes full of guys with AK47s, but we do fly unmanned aircraft into them. Those aircraft are built specifically to fly exactly once so they don't need all the complexity that a reusable vehicle with a human pilot needs. If aerodynamics aren't an issue, then it doesn't matter what shape the vehicle is, only the mass and its structural integrity, just use a chunk of space rock and go wild.


Goumindong:
You can tow it behind the controlling vessel or, y'know it has a hyperdrive, so just jump it close with the rest of the fleet and then warp it in from there.


Eldaec:
In the OT, we don't need to know where Palpatine came from. It's part of the initial setup that we are given. There's an evil Empire, thus an evil Emperor. At the end of the OT, we see Vader and Palpatine die, and the story strongly suggests that there are no more significant Force users any more except for Luke. So, when in TFA, we get this new super Force user who has somehow inherited the remnants of the former Empire, it's a jarring discontinuity with no context. I don't need to see 20 minutes of Snoke growing up, but some references to why he's the guy in charge and where he came from would help a lot. If they'd gone with a regular military commander instead, nobody would care why he was in charge, it would be unexceptional. If it was me writing the First Order leadership, I'd have had a regular Staff Officer running the show. Maybe he's some Grand Moff who carved out a chunk of territory during the fall of the Empire and has been soaking up whatever remnants of the former Imperial military ever since. The first time that any subordinate refers to him as Grand Moff or whatever, we have all the context we need for his leadership. No backstory scenes are required. Then there's Kylo Ren. As the grandson of Vader, he has a strong symbolic value to the First Order even outside of his abilities as a Force user. He's a link between the new regime and an incredibly powerful icon of the Empire. So yeah, give him a leadership role in the First Order outside of the normal hierarchy - like Vader. Then have Snoke be someone from outside the First Order, he's a shadowy figure who corrupted Ren but we don't need to know how or when. The Sith/apprentice dynamic is already well established, there's no need to go too far into that. If we see Ren communing with Snoke in private and keeping it a secret from the First Order, we understand what is going on. Again no explanation needed. In TLJ, when Luke is dropping some backstory to Rey, just have him say something like 'I thought I was training him but I discovered that he had a different Master' and again, we don't need any more context. Instead though, we get something that ought to be explained but isn't. It's like reading a history of the US and all of a sudden there's a reference to the Chief Pope of America and you're like 'wait, what?'


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Velorath on December 21, 2017, 03:05:16 AM
Question for people who hate that the evil mastermind in a trilogy of films is never fleshed out beyond 'I'm an evil guy in a robe who appears in one film in a single scene as a hologram, and in just two scenes in the only other film I appear in'. Also for people who really hate trilogys where we don't see how the evil mastermind turned his right hand  man to evil...

Why is all of this OK for you in the OT?



I realize that you're asking specifically about the lack of backstory, but I do feel like pointing out the fact that he's just bad CGI Palpatine (with less fun dialogue) maybe gives a hint of why people aren't so enamored of the character. Darth Maul had one line in Episode 1 and some people still point to him as one of the better bits of the prequels because of the character design and fighting skills. More people probably would have forgiven the fact that Snoke is barely a character if he didn't look like the result of Lucas and Peter Jackson fucking on top of a CGI animator's computer.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 21, 2017, 04:16:57 AM
Fair enough.

I found Snoke to be the best of a bad job within the first order. I can easily buy Snoke taking the reigns of a chunk of collapsing  empire.

But I struggled with Hux and Phasma's incompetence in particular, Kylo Ren you assume people follow out of pure fear.

Overall though I had much bigger problems with backstory in the Force Awakens, the lack of clarity around the new republic and what exactly is the post rotj status quo, meant nothing after Jakku made much sense to me. The opening crawl of TLJ at least clarified that by flat out stating that FO are the empire now.

The reason none of this stopped me enjoying the film is that I don't really think TLJ is about the first order, the new Republic, the resistance, or even about the GCW II. It is so focussed on 4 core characters plus Luke and Leia that the wider premise just didn't matter to me.


Star Wars world building has never been great and under Disney it hasn't improved. But hey, xwings and light sabres.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 21, 2017, 05:01:26 AM
We should be clear. NOBODY liked Snoke. There's only two camps now, either it's people who care about his backstory or people that don't but that character was never well regarded.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 21, 2017, 06:27:03 AM
I think this is a galaxy where using exclusively droid-manned attacks or otherwise automated attacks may be the equivalent of using poison gas---e.g., there's a very strong proscription against it because of the Clone Wars. That's actually the other major case of technological/tactical innovation we've seen in the series and there's pretty good reason to think that almost everyone came to the conclusion that it was a bad idea on multiple levels.

As for Snoke, Kylo Ren, Hux and the future of the First Order, I once heard a reporter who works exclusively on organized crime give a talk in Philadelphia. He was talking about where the mafia in the mid-Atlantic area was at these days, and he basically laid it out like this:

a) Back in the 1960s-1970s, they actually had a leadership that was genuinely a lot like what you see in The Godfather--very tied to family and to their Italian origins, actually pretty damn skilled at running a secret criminal corporation, and in their own way sort of ethical, including the prohibition on drug trafficking.

b) The Feds managed to get a lot of these guys, and also rising conflicts between the families led to a few dying.

c) The next generation were less careful, less skilled, and got busted quickly by the Feds or took each other out.

d) The next generation almost don't know how to run the organizations they've inherited, so what they're doing in a lot of cases is trying to act like mobsters based on what they've seen in the movies and TV--they literally watch The Godfather, Goodfellas and The Sopranos for guidance in how they're supposed to behave and what they're supposed to be doing. They still have a lot of resources, they're still involved in crime (including murder) but they're also poseurs and wannabes and kind of pathetic if you knew the old guys.

That already feels like Snoke, Hux and Kylo Ren: all in their way wannabees trying to put on boots that are too big for them. If that's the way they play the First Order in the next movie, I think that's great--that they have all the equipment, they've got the uniforms, but they also really don't know what they fuck they're doing and they're kind of cosplaying their way through it. In particular, they might not have any real administrations on any planets except for whatever they need to produce military materiel and supplies for their troops. A reason that might be especially great is if it leads to Hux, other FO military leaders and Kylo Ren being their own worst enemies, plotting against each other. *That* would be a different template for an IX: the Resistance builds a genuinely new moral and political order from the ground up and the FO gets consumed by its own insecurities and incompetence.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Draegan on December 21, 2017, 07:13:52 AM
That also makes for a shitty movie.

You need a big bad. You need good to triumph over evil, at least in Star Wars act 3. Do we really want to match the main characters go on a political campaign  for help? I don't need another political main plot for star wars.

Kylo Ren and Hux aren't scary. The empire machine is just big and anonymous. The Galaxy consumed by greed is boring as a backdrop.

Can you really feel triumphant when our band of heros triumphs over incompetent and childish leaders? Maybe in a comedy.

I suspect a few things might happen:

1) they skip ahead in time x years and Leia passes away. Kylo becomes more menacing and Vader like (he gets a chair cut). And we get a good ole classic SW movie.

2) The first order flounders and a 3rd faction pops up.

3) Rey goes on a mystical journey, discovers ancient magic, builds a new lightsaber, comes back as force jesus. She brings Finn and maybe Poe along under the guise of searching for help for the resistance (tech or ancient aliens) in some unknown part of the Galaxy. Takes the fight to the empire.

It feels like this movie was an end, or the end of the first epsiode. So now we have a core group of heros, two who just met (Poe and Rey), they lost everything, and the big menace was killed. You have one movie to clean it up. They might have wrote themselves into a corner. This definitely doesn't feel like the end if act 2.

I have a feeling we'll get an ending there the resistance doesn't win and the empire doesn't win and they both collapse.

Then the next trilogy has a blank slate x years in the future to build on.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 21, 2017, 07:58:43 AM
The Empire was only scary for a brief moment in ESB, though, if you think about it. (And scary again in Rogue One here and there.)

Even in ESB and ANH, most of the officers were disposable--only Tarkin, Vader and maybe Piett and the dude who commanded the AT-ATs seem to have any ability at all. The stormtroopers can't hit a damn thing, famously so; most of the TIE pilots get outmaneuvered by Rebel pilots routinely. That's partly because until Rogue One they didn't really want to tell this as a story of asymmetrical warfare--a competent evil empire vs. an underground resistance--because that's a fairly ugly story and it doesn't involve plucky rebel pilots fighting openly against a force that's got a thousand times more resources and approximately equal skill.

By Return of the Jedi, the Empire is just openly silly, and if you buy even the implied backstory of what happens in between Endor and TFA, then they kind of fell apart simply because they relied on the evil leadership of a single person and didn't really have much else going for them. The fecklessness of Imperial officers and stormtroopers is the stuff of a thousand memes--the only thing that's implied that they were genuinely dangerous adversaries were their uniforms and ship designs and general aesthetics and the fact that they had two supervillains at the top of the org chart.

I think yeah, I can feel triumphant if our band of heroes builds something better and that the new moral order they build stands strongly against corruption, greed, cruelty and genocide, leaving evil to crumble within.

Look, there are really only a few ways to do the story of "underdogs v. evil empire":

a) The evil guys have a hidden MacGuffin vulnerability that when you take it out causes them to disintegrate. See: throwing the One Ring into Orodruin, stabbing the Cauldron-Born with Dyrnwyn, hitting the exhaust port of the Death Star with a torpedo, throwing the Emperor down a shaft after making him Force-lightning himself, etc. This is massively fucking overused in SW alone, and in popular culture generally.

b) The heroes win simply because they're pure of heart and every one of them has the strength and intelligence of a hundred of the evil guys, so they can stand toe-to-toe with them and slug it out. Sometimes the lead hero sacrifices himself effectively because he has the strength of a thousand of the evil guys, or a small squad of good guys sacrifice themselves to save the army of good guys. See: Gladiator, some war movies, Rogue One, lots of superhero stories, the conclusion of most James Bond movies.

c) The heroes win because they have one brilliant idea, often involving a MacGuffin, that leverages their miniscule relative strength just enough to defeat the evil empire--usually just for this episode, they'll be back next time. See Flash Gordon (old serials), Doctor Who

d) The heroes win because they're playing fifth-dimensional chess against a nearly equally-competent evil empire and they just play it slightly better. This is usually not an underdog v. evil empire template, really--it's more like Sherlock v. Moriarity, two nearly equal adversaries. It is really hard to tell this as a story of plucky underdogs vs. an evil empire because fifth-dimensional chess in this case usually means the stuff that's involved in asymmetrical warfare that is almost certainly morally ambiguous and not very suited for a good guy v. bad guy story. Sometimes works when it's just one person (Indiana Jones, etc.) than it is a rebel force.

e) The heroes win because they build up an alliance of previously neutral onlookers until they match the evil empire in strength. Flash Gordon often followed this template; it's used reasonably often in pulp adventure generally.

f) The heroes win because the evil empire has hidden and internal weaknesses that cause it to fall apart under pressure, often just when things seem darkest, maybe because it overreaches. The self-defeating bad guy who goes a bridge too far is a reasonably common trope in superhero comics--Stan Lee used it a bunch of times in early Marvel Comics, where a nearly all-powerful bad guy would be brought down because Reed Richard or Tony Stark would suddenly realize that feeding him all the power he wants would cause him to blow up or overload or freak out or die. It's also kind of the way evil empires in actual history tend to fall apart--they expand too much, or a competent ruler is replaced by a couple of corrupt doofuses.

e and f are maybe used less often because they're harder to pull off in a way that's exciting and pulpy, but there's nothing intrinsically unworkeable or dull about them. f) for example is often used to fuel a revenge-based rebels v. empire story, where the leader of the rebels is the rightful heir or a former servant of the empire back when it was competent. See: Robin Hood. They're also often a good way to get rid of the basic conflict of evil empire v. plucky rebellion and turn it to a more disorganized evil factions v. good factions template.


I think if IX ends with people in the galaxy deciding that it's best to not have any galactic-level governments or institutions--Jedi, Republic, Empire--then that clears the stage for some fun SW storytelling.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Draegan on December 21, 2017, 09:08:53 AM
The Empire was scary because of competent seeming over commanders like Vader and the emporer. The rest that you describe is just story elements allowing a small band of heros to win against a huge empire machine.

Snoke is probably not even dead. He was probably just a force projection like Luke.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Draegan on December 21, 2017, 09:09:28 AM
I'm on my phone or I would have responded more in-depth.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on December 21, 2017, 09:25:21 AM
The lesson for me: If you're doing a trilogy, have the same person create the outline, if not direct and/or write, the entire thing. This sticks a middle finger at what JJ began and said, "Nah, forget what you started. I'll sweep it out and replace it with my take."

JJ respected what came before him. His execution may have been flawed, but it respected what Lucas did in 4 to 6. Rian said, "I see the story elements and universe rules you dropped there. They don't interest me, so I'll write around them." That is what is at the core ofca lot of my complaints.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Draegan on December 21, 2017, 09:46:59 AM
Another theory that I can think of is balance in the force. Essentially we were told the force produces force users to balance each other.

In the day Jedi we're limited in their use of the force, or at least were held back for reasons. This made the Jedi pool wide but shallow and explained very powerful darkbusers but limited in numbers.

Now Skywalker and snoke are gone Which allows for more users to come about, hence the kid at the end.

New movie might see a rise of random force users going nutty. Kind of like an X-Men movie with rampant mutant discovery.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on December 21, 2017, 10:16:27 AM
With all the crabbing about tech and tactics, I'm surprised no one has complained about WWII style belly-drop bombers..... in 0 G (of if they did I missed it).

Anyone complaining about WWII space battles is simply watching the wrong movie series. It is a feature, not a bug.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on December 21, 2017, 10:22:38 AM
Another theory that I can think of is balance in the force. Essentially we were told the force produces force users to balance each other.

In the day Jedi we're limited in their use of the force, or at least were held back for reasons. This made the Jedi pool wide but shallow and explained very powerful darkbusers but limited in numbers.

Now Skywalker and snoke are gone Which allows for more users to come about, hence the kid at the end.

New movie might see a rise of random force users going nutty. Kind of like an X-Men movie with rampant mutant discovery.

This is why I hate these movies. Just confuses the cannon, you can not insert this crap into the past movies or the established lore.

Balance in the force simply means "destruction of the sith, light triumphing over evil". The rule of 2 sith were created as a reaction to the inherent flaws of the past sith orders. Large pools and shallow force users only good for blood crazed suicide runs and betrayal. Instead of waiting for one sith master so powerful that the rest of the sith fall inline, dearth bane killed the order and insisted that only 2 true students of the dark side need to exist in order to propel the sith and the dark side into the future. This line of reasoning eventually created Palptine and since the jedi hasn't fought the sith in a 1000 years they weren't expecting him. Or his tactics which were completely different from how the sith of old normally operate. Palptine was a perfection of the dark side, a process of 1000 of years of evolution which is why he succeeded.

On the other hands the jedi were at the height of their power during the prequels. Most of them were peace keepers (mostly due to not having to fight a serious war since the last sith uprising) but the vast majority of those considered knights and masters were scary motherfuckers. The force isn't a ying yan relationship where there is duality and parity. The force works against the dark side coming to power, and having to work through mortal agents, doesn't always do a good job. For example Anakin was born specifically to counter Palptine. The force says "this is this kids destiny, the jedi will face a darkness that will require space jesus, here is space jesus". Despite this fact or even partially due to this fact, operation space jesus was a colossal failure.

What the new triology is doing is turning the mythos into the xmen. Which would be fine, if you didn't call it star wars.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 21, 2017, 10:22:41 AM
Question for people who hate that the evil mastermind in a trilogy of films is never fleshed out beyond 'I'm an evil guy in a robe who appears in one film in a single scene as a hologram, and in just two scenes in the only other film I appear in'. Also for people who really hate trilogys where we don't see how the evil mastermind turned his right hand  man to evil...

Why is all of this OK for you in the OT?

They were better written, better filmed and better structured than both this movie and TFA. Also, the character of Vader and the Imperial leaders were much better portrayed than a sniveling ginger masochist and a whiny temper tantrum throwing douche.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 21, 2017, 10:28:43 AM
We should be clear. NOBODY liked Snoke. There's only two camps now, either it's people who care about his backstory or people that don't but that character was never well regarded.

Actually, given the scenes we have with Snoke in TLJ, I actually like the character - or safer to say, I'm INTRIGUED enough about the character to want to know more about him. During his scenes, I kept noticing the scars and the fucked up uneven eyes and was like "How did that happen? Is he a failed Emperor clone? Did someon really fuck his shit up with a light saber? Is he a Sith Lord?

Some of I think Rian Johnson's comments after hint that maybe he's not even a Sith Lord and that it doesn't matter. The fuck you say it doesn't matter. It abso-fucking-lutely DOES matter since his efforts as leader of the First Order and the guy who corrupted Ben Solo enough that Luke Skywalker thought "I'd better ginsu this little bitch in his sleep" are pretty integral to the main galaxy-wide (we think?) conflict depicted in the WARS part of Star Wars.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Shannow on December 21, 2017, 10:29:43 AM
Hux is terrible, I think we can all agree on that. Dominic Gleason (sp?) is a good actor, this is not the role for him. Pick whatever accomplished English actor (aka someone who was on either GoT or in a Harry Potter) who's twenty years older and give him the role.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 21, 2017, 10:31:11 AM

Balance in the force simply means "destruction of the sith, light triumphing over evil". The rule of 2 sith were created as a reaction to the inherent flaws of the past sith orders. Large pools and shallow force users only good for blood crazed suicide runs and betrayal. Instead of waiting for one sith master so powerful that the rest of the sith fall inline, dearth bane killed the order and insisted that only 2 true students of the dark side need to exist in order to propel the sith and the dark side into the future. This line of reasoning eventually created Palptine and since the jedi hasn't fought the sith in a 1000 years they weren't expecting him. Or his tactics which were completely different from how the sith of old normally operate. Palptine was a perfection of the dark side, a process of 1000 of years of evolution which is why he succeeded.


Where does this knowledge come from?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on December 21, 2017, 11:47:04 AM
Hux is terrible, I think we can all agree on that. Dominic Gleason (sp?) is a good actor, this is not the role for him. Pick whatever accomplished English actor (aka someone who was on either GoT or in a Harry Potter) who's twenty years older and give him the role.

The guy who was commanding the ship that got blown up in the opening attack was perfect.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: BobtheSomething on December 21, 2017, 11:50:20 AM
We should be clear. NOBODY liked Snoke. There's only two camps now, either it's people who care about his backstory or people that don't but that character was never well regarded.

I actually quite enjoyed him in TLJ (although I hated him in TFA).  As someone who no longer cared about the Star Wars continuity, I was able to go with the film and take it on its own merits, which is why I enjoyed it.  But don't think for a second that it's ok to base the core conflict of the movie on Snoke's actions (he turned Kylo irredeemably, or made Luke think he did) without showing the audience the actions or the relationship between him and Luke and Ben that created the entire basis for the new trilogy.  Yeah, the movie stuck to the storytelling essentials as they pertain to this one film, but comp,ethyl dropped the ball when it comes to the fact that this movie does not exist on its own and never could.

Plus, as much as I respect RJ for flipping JJ the massive bird by ignoring all his mystery boxes, the audience did spend years speculating on Snoke and buying product.  A little customer loyalty, even an offhand explanatory comment, could have salvaged their emotional and financial investment.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Draegan on December 21, 2017, 11:55:09 AM
Or snoke isn't dead.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: BobtheSomething on December 21, 2017, 12:11:52 PM
Or snoke isn't dead.

But he's been Freeza'd!


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 21, 2017, 12:17:26 PM
Or snoke isn't dead.

This movie in itself has given us nothing to think that Snoke might have survived that. Even the previous movies haven't so much given us a firm belief that someone can come back from the dead like that.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on December 21, 2017, 12:26:26 PM
Or snoke isn't dead.

This movie in itself has given us nothing to think that Snoke might have survived that. Even the previous movies haven't so much given us a firm belief that someone can come back from the dead like that.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b7/1e/64/b71e643cc28e05e158ef30a599c2e507.jpg)


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 21, 2017, 12:51:00 PM
Or snoke isn't dead.

This movie in itself has given us nothing to think that Snoke might have survived that. Even the previous movies haven't so much given us a firm belief that someone can come back from the dead like that.

Have you heard the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the wise?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 21, 2017, 12:52:20 PM
But seriously Snoke is dead don't be ridiculous.

We've had two years of 'Rey is a Skywalker' and 'Finn is a jedi', lets not do that shit again.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 21, 2017, 12:54:09 PM
There is zero canon that resolves what "balance" means with respect to the Force. The Jedi were plainly wrong in their understanding of it when they thought a: it was a good thing if it happened and b: Anakin was the one who would bring balance. In fact, it's just more evidence for the Jedi-are-fucked-up bin, because the Jedi aren't running around in the time of The Phantom Menace thinking that there is something wrong with the Force or with their relationship to it. We have a vague intimation that Qui-Gon was on the philosophical outs with the Council; Count Dooku used to be a Jedi and now he's not, but until the Clone Wars starts they're all pretty chill about him leaving. That's about it as far as the Jedi worrying about the worms in their apple. They certainly don't think that the prophecy of "balance in the Force" means "there need to be Sith"--if that was the case, they wouldn't be calling Anakin the Chosen One, they'd be calling him the Cursed One, because they most emphatically do NOT welcome it when they run into an actual Sith.

Now, the Jedi can be wrong about that, but then that means that the Force itself, in some way, desires that there be an eternal contest between light and dark and is making moves to keep both sides in the game. The Tao doesn't have to manipulate reality to produce the Tao: it's intrinsic.

Luke in this film offers a different interpretation: the Force is not something to dam up and use as a resource. It's only in "balance" when it's flowing freely through all things--not just life but the nonliving. The light and dark in this respect are simply what exists naturally in people (and things: natural disasters and whatnot, after all). It's why he's come to his conclusion that it's a bad idea to recreate a highly disciplined order of Jedi, and it implies (Yoda seemingly agreeing at the end of the film) that the Jedi were in error to think that "light" comes from discipline and order and training. (Which also implies that they're making a big mistake to recruit people when they're kids.)  So in that way, Anakin AND Luke have brought balance to the Force--not by equalling out the dark and light sides, but by disbanding the Jedi and the Sith.

There's other ways you could probably work the idea that aren't ruled out by what's been on screen so far--that the Force should be used in a temperate or restrained way and that increasingly in the Old Republic era it was being used in more and more intense or concentrated ways; that a Force wielder should be in touch with light and dark (the whole "grey" thing). But I don't think we've seen an authoritative in-canon description of what the idea means by someone whose understanding of it is unimpeachable. The Jedi are clearly not trustworthy interpreters of the idea, and given what he's been through, maybe not Luke either.

I don't think we've ever heard also *who* exactly delivered the prophecy in the first place. All we know is that the late Old Republic Jedi are very familiar with the prophecy and very interested in it. It can't be that they think it's going to mean the destruction of the Sith, because until Darth Maul shows up, every single Jedi of that era is firmly convinced that the Sith are long gone.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on December 21, 2017, 12:56:10 PM
But seriously Snoke is dead don't be ridiculous.

We've had two years of 'Rey is a Skywalker' and 'Finn is a jedi', lets not do that shit again.

You have to keep in mind that there is no plan. Snoke is as dead as JJ feels he is, Rey might still be a Skywalker. All those things would be shitty of course, doesn't mean they can't happen.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on December 21, 2017, 12:59:38 PM

Balance in the force simply means "destruction of the sith, light triumphing over evil". The rule of 2 sith were created as a reaction to the inherent flaws of the past sith orders. Large pools and shallow force users only good for blood crazed suicide runs and betrayal. Instead of waiting for one sith master so powerful that the rest of the sith fall inline, dearth bane killed the order and insisted that only 2 true students of the dark side need to exist in order to propel the sith and the dark side into the future. This line of reasoning eventually created Palptine and since the jedi hasn't fought the sith in a 1000 years they weren't expecting him. Or his tactics which were completely different from how the sith of old normally operate. Palptine was a perfection of the dark side, a process of 1000 of years of evolution which is why he succeeded.


Where does this knowledge come from?


The fun thing about thr disney getting star wars is that everything published post episodr 6 was declared non-cannon but not everything pre episode 6. Which includes a lot of history.

In Episode 1 we know yoda and obiwan and mace windu discussed the rule of two when dearth maul died

In Episode 2 or 3 mace windu mentioned that the jedi and sith havent fought in 1000 years

This comment eventually led to ths old republic lore, which was further adapted by bioware for the old republoc games

In the lore, which goes back to the ousting of the datk jedi who will later become fhe sith, we get dearth bane

the same darth bane an entire episode of star wars the clone wars was devoted to when yoda was exploring an old sith tenple/relic. im fact the clone wars cartoon makes many many references to the 1000 year old old republic storylines.

In Episode 3 Darth Sidiou talks about his master and the fact that killed his master, confirming he is a product of the rule of two, which goes back to Darth Bane killing the old sith and establing the rule of 2.

As far as "nothing in the cannon tells what balance in the fourth is"

hm yes there is. Obi wan repeats what it is in the prequals and the original triology and George Lucas himself says the destruction of the sith and restoring light to the galaxy is balance in the force.

Because we're idiots we think there is a neccessary duality in the force because we are incapable of taking a black and white tail of good verses evil at face value.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 21, 2017, 01:07:05 PM
I'm always intrigued by the absurd interpretation that people put on yoda and obi wan's fireside chat about the rule of 2.

Sane viewers would interpret it as 'sith come in pairs' because only having 2 members at one time is plainly no basis for a sustainable religion.

Happily both clone wars and rebels have crapped all over this nonsense. Sith and jedi springing out of the woodwork all over the damn place.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on December 21, 2017, 01:13:02 PM
We should be clear. NOBODY liked Snoke. There's only two camps now, either it's people who care about his backstory or people that don't but that character was never well regarded.

Actually, given the scenes we have with Snoke in TLJ, I actually like the character - or safer to say, I'm INTRIGUED enough about the character to want to know more about him. During his scenes, I kept noticing the scars and the fucked up uneven eyes and was like "How did that happen? Is he a failed Emperor clone? Did someon really fuck his shit up with a light saber? Is he a Sith Lord?

Some of I think Rian Johnson's comments after hint that maybe he's not even a Sith Lord and that it doesn't matter. The fuck you say it doesn't matter. It abso-fucking-lutely DOES matter since his efforts as leader of the First Order and the guy who corrupted Ben Solo enough that Luke Skywalker thought "I'd better ginsu this little bitch in his sleep" are pretty integral to the main galaxy-wide (we think?) conflict depicted in the WARS part of Star Wars.

It really doesn’t matter and explaining him will likely make it worse. Explaining things almost always makes them worse.  
Another theory that I can think of is balance in the force. Essentially we were told the force produces force users to balance each other.

In the day Jedi we're limited in their use of the force, or at least were held back for reasons. This made the Jedi pool wide but shallow and explained very powerful darkbusers but limited in numbers.

Now Skywalker and snoke are gone Which allows for more users to come about, hence the kid at the end.

New movie might see a rise of random force users going nutty. Kind of like an X-Men movie with rampant mutant discovery.

This is why I hate these movies. Just confuses the cannon, you can not insert this crap into the past movies or the established lore.

Balance in the force simply means "destruction of the sith, light triumphing over evil". The rule of 2 sith were created as a reaction to the inherent flaws of the past sith orders. Large pools and shallow force users only good for blood crazed suicide runs and betrayal. Instead of waiting for one sith master so powerful that the rest of the sith fall inline, dearth bane killed the order and insisted that only 2 true students of the dark side need to exist in order to propel the sith and the dark side into the future. This line of reasoning eventually created Palptine and since the jedi hasn't fought the sith in a 1000 years they weren't expecting him. Or his tactics which were completely different from how the sith of old normally operate. Palptine was a perfection of the dark side, a process of 1000 of years of evolution which is why he succeeded.

On the other hands the jedi were at the height of their power during the prequels. Most of them were peace keepers (mostly due to not having to fight a serious war since the last sith uprising) but the vast majority of those considered knights and masters were scary motherfuckers. The force isn't a ying yan relationship where there is duality and parity. The force works against the dark side coming to power, and having to work through mortal agents, doesn't always do a good job. For example Anakin was born specifically to counter Palptine. The force says "this is this kids destiny, the jedi will face a darkness that will require space jesus, here is space jesus". Despite this fact or even partially due to this fact, operation space jesus was a colossal failure.

What the new triology is doing is turning the mythos into the xmen. Which would be fine, if you didn't call it star wars.

No. The cannon has been pushing us towards this path for a long time now right from Yodas presence in ESB. The ambiguity of the force is probably the only actual consistent theme in the entire series with every character which lives making mistakes based on their rigidity and finding redemption in flexibility.

Re: the rule of two.

I always thought that Yoda was talking about practicality. It’s like “I found a moth in my closet don’t worry it’s only one”. No, there are always more


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on December 21, 2017, 01:24:01 PM
One the rule of two and its orgins are very very cannon.
Two the force is not ambiguous. You are as the viewer isnt faced with an option that jells with who are as a person. Given two extreme options we desperately try to explain a middle ground where we can eat our cake and have it to. We do this politically given only two sides you find most people just pout and say both sides are bad instead of doing something. The only thing ambiguous is our natural tendency toward apathy.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Draegan on December 21, 2017, 01:27:12 PM
Or snoke isn't dead.

This movie in itself has given us nothing to think that Snoke might have survived that. Even the previous movies haven't so much given us a firm belief that someone can come back from the dead like that.

Maybe he wwas a force projection like what Luke did in th final sequence.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 21, 2017, 01:31:03 PM
Or snoke isn't dead.

This movie in itself has given us nothing to think that Snoke might have survived that. Even the previous movies haven't so much given us a firm belief that someone can come back from the dead like that.

Maybe he wwas a force projection like what Luke did in th final sequence.

Sure, and after Luke did his Force projection he was dead... SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO... still nothing in the movie that would say he could come back from the dead.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Draegan on December 21, 2017, 01:33:12 PM
I didn't interpret his force projecting is what killed him. I think he just found peace and transended or whatever force ghosting is called.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on December 21, 2017, 01:49:44 PM
One the rule of two and its orgins are very very cannon.
Two the force is not ambiguous. You are as the viewer isnt faced with an option that jells with who are as a person. Given two extreme options we desperately try to explain a middle ground where we can eat our cake and have it to. We do this politically given only two sides you find most people just pout and say both sides are bad instead of doing something. The only thing ambiguous is our natural tendency toward apathy.

Uhh no. The only unambiguous force is in Star Wars where the light side and dark side are literally not explained at all. Where Anakin turning to the dark side is described as him "betraying and murdering another person". Lukes speech about the force surrounding and binding us is almost word for word from Alec Guinness in Star Wars. His speech about failure is pretty much straight from "jesus did you even watch the prequel trilogy?"


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 21, 2017, 02:32:18 PM
They could wrap up Snoke very easily by next movie having Kylo discover several clone tubes with snokes inside them, all failed or attempts at rebuilding the emperor.  That's all the backstory Snoke would ever need and would also give the first order itself a bit more backstory, having been the empire all along, just with a makeover to likely get better/less defeated image.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 21, 2017, 07:52:29 PM
Gonna be stubborn here. Lucas can say "balance" means "the destruction of the Sith" all he wants, but his own damn movie makes that obviously crap. The Jedi have zero idea that there are any Sith left anywhere until they meet Darth Maul. They think that shit ended a thousand years ago. And yet they're all familiar with the prophecy of the Chosen One, and they're all hot for it. Why, if they don't think there are any Sith around to worry about, and seemingly no other major threats to peace and prosperity?

More importantly, I have no idea why some fans want to reduce rather than multiply the number of possible interpretations and perspectives in something they love. That's been the whole point about Star Wars all along: it's a homage, sure, but it quickly left all of its pulp antecedents in the dust almost from the first second of the first film, because most of them were simple-minded and one-dimensional in seriously stupid ways.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 22, 2017, 04:00:58 AM
On Snoke - while I don't care that this film, and almost certainly this trilogy isn't going to explain him, I'm definitely interested enough to watch a one shot film on the subject in the future.

I'm just not bothered that it didn't happen here, I'm not bothered if it never happens, and I rather like the fact that not every damn thing has a serious monologue explaining shit. I filled my boots on that in the prequels.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 22, 2017, 04:03:23 AM
Gonna be stubborn here. Lucas can say "balance" means "the destruction of the Sith" all he wants, but his own damn movie makes that obviously crap.

And more to the point, authors don't get to decide what their output means.

Especially not if they are George Lucas.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on December 22, 2017, 06:05:17 AM
Ok, been busy enjoying a holiday on a tropical island, and this thread moved fast.  I apologize for dredging up stuff that's been argued over already, but I feel I have to give some input back.  After this post, I'll try to just skim and briefly hit anything else that has come along, for everybodies sanity.

See, I also don't get this series of complaints, because they seem like lazy criticism, e.g., it's just rattling off epithets to describe imprecisely and generically a sensation of disliking the film.
I literally rattled off several very specific complaints about the writing and narrative choices.  Nothing imprecise, but I guess easy to ignore for you?  You didn't address any of them.  I mean, on the character backgrounds, I guess your fine with the vagueness, so sure, ignore that complaint.  But the others?
Quote
I get not liking that they didn't do with the characters what you wanted done, I get not liking the structure of the plot, but it's anything but lazy. It's essentially the opposite of lazy: it does unusual and provocative things with the characters. Lazy would have been, "Luke Skywalker does the grumpy Yoda thing, trains Rey to be an awesome Jedi in a quick montage, they fight Kylo Ren and then Snoke at the end and win; Poe Dameron has a brilliant desperate plan that against all the odds works and the Resistance escapes intact to save the day and Vice-Admiral Holdo admits Poe is a genius and also that she is falling in love with him". That's lazy writing.
See, I'm mostly on board with you on this.  The opening credits got me off to a bad mood to begin with because it basically said "WE ARE REDOING ESB EXACTLY".  Now, it ended up being fairly different, which is good.  But the different path they took I didn't particularly enjoy, though it has its strengths.  I actually am mostly ok with the Luke/Rei stuff, I just think it could have been handled better.  To the point I'm still torn on if the generic scenario you wrote above would have lead to a better movie or not, even if it was a lazy way out.

Quote
What's also lazy criticism is applying complaints to one film that would essentially indict every single one of them.

Does Obi-Wan tell Luke a whole bunch of things that he ought to tell him in ANH? Nope. "Unearned tension".
Not even slightly similar at all.  What valuable piece of information did he leave out that would have kept him from doing something important to the plot for no reason?  Not telling him Vader was his father makes perfect sense at the time.  Same with Yoda.  What information did either of those guys hold back that led to him needlessly doing something, except maybe stopping him from kissing his sister?[/quote]
Quote
Does it make any sense at all that this particular group of barely-competent fugitives should be able to sneak around the Death Star successfully (before Vader and Tarkin decide to put a tracker on the Falcon?) Not remotely.
Does a trash compactor as shown make any sense? Does the interior design of the Death Star make any sense?
Does the fact that the Death Star seems to only have about four to eight Tie Fighters total make any sense?
Why does the Empire not care about all the small fighters sneaking away from Hoth after the main transports have gotten away? Why not swarm the entire sector with Tie Fighters?
Does Yoda not telling Luke about his father prior to his father telling him make any sense? Why not get out in front of it? Unearned tension!
Does Yoda's method of oblique training in general make any sense?
Does a space worm make any sense? What's it eat, anyway? Why wouldn't Han know about such things?
How on earth does the implied time frame of Luke's time on Dagobah square with what's going on with the Falcon?
etc. None of these movies--and maybe no science-fantasy or science-fiction movie ever--really stands up if you're going to come at it with this kind of determination.
Holy shit who would even ask any of this?   You are reeeaching far.  I'm not talking about comic book guy geek level tearing apart a film and arguing over how many force ghost can dance on the head of a pin, which is what you are equating me to doing here.  I'm talking about this film literally saying an entire fleet of star destroyers and a super Death Star cannot penetrate the shields of a normal cruiser for reasons that fly in the face of every fleet battle we've ever seen.  For comparison, you'll notice that I did not bring up the crazy bomber run in the start of the film.  Fucking space B-52's that have to slowly fly over their target and drop, in zero gravity, their bombs?  Guess what, A OK!  Star Wars is WW2 in space, and that right here is completely constant with the story telling, even if when you look at it, its the dumbest thing ever (just like people having dog fights and shooting laser flack in space, all which is not actually possible).  I didn't even bat an eye at that, but the entire premise of the chase scene broke immersion very badly for me.  Same reason light speed kamakazi was cool but also somewhat immersion breaking.  Introducing real physics to Star Wars starts to make the entire premise fall apart.

Does that make sense?


Also, you're selling Vespasian short.  He was a cool dude!   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on December 22, 2017, 06:27:06 AM
But seriously Snoke is dead don't be ridiculous.

We've had two years of 'Rey is a Skywalker' and 'Finn is a jedi', lets not do that shit again.
I think it would be the most hilarious/amazing thing ever if JJ got back at RJ by undoing everything he did in this film.  Snoke IS Darth Plagious, and he's back!  Rei is actually a Skywalker after all!  Finn is a Jedi!  Fuck all of you alrlhaojdlfdldslslsf.....

Edit:  Oh, one other thing to add to the overall trend I've been seeing.  Lots of people talk about the performances of Luke, Leia, ect.  I just.... dont' see it.  Luke was the best of the old cast, but his acting was not that great overall (but manageable).  Leia in both TFA and this movie was terrible.  Like, she was slurring her words in both movies and sounded like she had a stroke.  Acting was flat out bad.  It made me feel genuinely bad that they had forced her out for this movie.  She really sounded like she should have just been resting and trying to take care of her health instead of doing this.  Harrison Ford sounded tired and bored in TFA, with none of the pop of his youthful self.  Honestly, I would have been totally fine if they had killed off the entire cast between trilogies or just gave them 1 minute cameos in the first movie.  Only Luke was needed for a big role in the new trilogy plot wise, and the actors all being so old and bad at acting hurt the films.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Draegan on December 22, 2017, 07:47:31 AM
One of the descriptions I liked for snoke was that he was just some random asshole who got powers after Vader died. Then schemed his way to evil power.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 22, 2017, 10:16:55 AM
Leia in both TFA and this movie was terrible.  Like, she was slurring her words in both movies and sounded like she had a stroke.

I think most reports I've heard said that she basically might as well have had a stroke and was clearly struggling through her lines. She probably shouldn't have done it and if she'd been sucked out of the hole in the bridge and died instead of Mary Poppinsing her way back into the plot, I'd have been perfectly fine with that. I think it would have actually helped the story.

EDIT: As for Snoke being just some guy, I'd be fine with that too if we'd, you know, actually been given that. As it was, his quick death and lack of any real background just confused me as a viewer. Like, based on his part in the story ordering around all the First Order dudes and Kylo Ren, I'm supposed to be attached to his evilness but then he's just Mace Windu'ed out of the plot? WUT?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Draegan on December 22, 2017, 11:54:10 AM
You didn't have Tarkins back story in IV. Or Yodas in V.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Samwise on December 22, 2017, 12:09:28 PM
Or Boba Fett's, or Jabba's, or even Obi-Wan's beyond "he's a Jedi and he knew Luke's dad".


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 22, 2017, 12:37:40 PM
We had more than just "supreme leader of First Order." That's literally ALL we know about the character and yet he's a major driver of the plot.

Tarkin? He was not a major driver of the plot, he was dead after episode 4. Yoda, Jabba and Obi-Wan we got more information about even after their deaths. I'm not even talking about backstory so much as place in the goddamn world other than a one-line job title. It would be like sending Luke to find Yoda only to never find out that Yoda was a Jedi Master - why would he be sent to Yoda in the first place?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on December 22, 2017, 12:37:54 PM
https://www.yahoo.com/news/mark-hamill-rips-role-apos-145123576.html

meanwhile when even the guy playing luke skywalker says you fucked up.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on December 22, 2017, 12:40:15 PM
He bitched about the original series too, apparently Luke wouldn't have killed the wampa or some such.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Surlyboi on December 22, 2017, 01:21:16 PM
Jesus, you all are broken.

I liked the direction this took. Could Luke have been a bit less of a whiny, bitch? Totally. He's still a Skywalker though, so whiny bitch is baked in. Rey not being anyone is kind of the point of the Force. The Force doesn't give a shit what your name is. It's going to choose you to be its conduit or it isn't. Matter of fact, I think the Skywalkers were an aberration. A line created by manipulating the Force for less-than-pure ends. If anything, all of the shit coming out of this is the Force correcting that aberration. Was the pacing off? Sure. Were there things that could've been better? Absolutely. But this was a damn solid Star Wars flick.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on December 22, 2017, 01:35:02 PM
Disney's original rough plan, after taking Lucas out, was that Episode 7 would focus on Han, 8 on Luke and 9 on Leia.  All three were originally going to be in all three, but the idea was to have only one of the old guard core characters front and center in each episode.  This changed a lot with Solo being killed for story reasons at the conclusion of 7, Luke not being included at all (really) in 7, and now with Fisher passing.  

There is a huge amount of information out there from official supporting materials.  For example, Snoke was not a Sith - the Sith ended with Vader.   He also, per some official materials, had an unnamed second apprentice (https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-8-snoke-second-apprentice/ (https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-8-snoke-second-apprentice/)).  More will follow.  Perhaps these materials will let us know the things we're curious about - although I still think think that we'll soon get an announcement that the next animated series will be focused on Luke between episodes 6 and 7 like we saw Kenobi as the focus of Clone Wars. All the hints about the series have pointed to a story tied more closely to the main character storylines.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 22, 2017, 03:29:37 PM
Hamill's complaint as reported seems pretty daft. But I kind of suspect he has been taken out of context because (a) he likes talking about acting and star wars a lot so is easy to quote out of context and (b) he isn't usually so absolute.

I had no issue whatsoever with Luke being broken after evil dude stole his fucking nephew and broke the galaxy with him. OT Luke never came up against anything remotely like that. While I found myself hoping to see him go rogue1vader at the end - it was also obvious that it would be flat out wrong, what he actually did was way more satisfying.

I really liked the sabre battle - reminded me a lot of the Rebels Maul vs Obiwan duel. Both manage to carry the feeling that lightsabres are actually fucking dangerous, and transmit a lot of character in a few simple moves and reactions.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 22, 2017, 03:39:35 PM
I still think think that we'll soon get an announcement that the next animated series will be focused on Luke between episodes 6 and 7 like we saw Kenobi as the focus of Clone Wars. All the hints about the series have pointed to a story tied more closely to the main character storylines.

I would happily make space for that animated series on my dvr.

That is exactly the right way deal with nerd questions about Luke and Snoke without gumming up the films.

But I doubt they'll make Luke main character. More likely it would be 'adventures of random jedi trainees in Luke's academy'.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MahrinSkel on December 22, 2017, 08:00:55 PM
God damn it, if you're going to argue about the history and theology of space wizards with laser swords, spell "Canon" right.

--Dave


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Soln on December 22, 2017, 10:07:07 PM
Did anyone catch Laura Dern say “ thank god”or “by god” near the end?  Pretty sure she did. That felt really odd.  Like the first time I’ve ever heard that in a SW film.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Surlyboi on December 22, 2017, 10:10:41 PM
It was, "godspeed". It was said by a few people. Did strike me as a little off.

Edited to put in the actual quote.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Draegan on December 23, 2017, 09:09:58 AM
We had more than just "supreme leader of First Order." That's literally ALL we know about the character and yet he's a major driver of the plot.

Tarkin? He was not a major driver of the plot, he was dead after episode 4. Yoda, Jabba and Obi-Wan we got more information about even after their deaths. I'm not even talking about backstory so much as place in the goddamn world other than a one-line job title. It would be like sending Luke to find Yoda only to never find out that Yoda was a Jedi Master - why would he be sent to Yoda in the first place?

We know he reached out and tainted kylo. We know he is feared etc. More info that palpatine.

Tarkin was more of a driver is 4 than snoke in 7.

I feel like this is a wow vs. new MMO debate about content in 2007.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 23, 2017, 09:34:49 AM
I am really just not getting some of the complaints, yeah. I understand the issues with pacing and I understand why someone might not like the staging of the chase and dramatic situation of the fleet.

The idea that you have just got to have more background on Snoke is dumb. He's not a dramatic character in the sense that he's got an arc or any development. He's a thematic plot device, and by this time in the series, a familiar one.

In the end, even after six movies, you still have almost no background on Palpatine, and certainly none in the original trilogy. Even with the prequels, the only glimmering you get of his background before the events of TPM is a possibly-apocryphal story of his possible-Sith Master and a recognition of the depth of his planning for the overthrow of the Republic and the Jedi. How exactly he was found by his Sith master, why he found the Sith teachings appealing (and was not previously identified as Force-sensitive before being found by the Sith) is strictly EU stuff. It's never on-screen because it doesn't matter. He also is not a character whose dramatic arc matters--he also is a plot device, fundamentally.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: BobtheSomething on December 23, 2017, 11:16:50 AM
I am really just not getting some of the complaints, yeah. I understand the issues with pacing and I understand why someone might not like the staging of the chase and dramatic situation of the fleet.

The idea that you have just got to have more background on Snoke is dumb. He's not a dramatic character in the sense that he's got an arc or any development. He's a thematic plot device, and by this time in the series, a familiar one.

In the end, even after six movies, you still have almost no background on Palpatine, and certainly none in the original trilogy. Even with the prequels, the only glimmering you get of his background before the events of TPM is a possibly-apocryphal story of his possible-Sith Master and a recognition of the depth of his planning for the overthrow of the Republic and the Jedi. How exactly he was found by his Sith master, why he found the Sith teachings appealing (and was not previously identified as Force-sensitive before being found by the Sith) is strictly EU stuff. It's never on-screen because it doesn't matter. He also is not a character whose dramatic arc matters--he also is a plot device, fundamentally.


So, you are ok with his treatment by this movie because it is right in this movie.  However, his presence has ramification on the entire franchise, not the least of which is how he could affect Luke, whose deviation from his arc over three films deserves a bit more fleshing out than "a wizard did it".  If you see the franchise as one whole story, then this particular chapter does not fit I. It so well, no matter how much you like it on its own.

Honestly, though, I don't see how you can not see the flaws in nearly every scene of the film.  Yeah, I liked it, too, but I can't pretend it's not deeply stupid.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: IainC on December 23, 2017, 11:18:19 AM
Right, but in the OT, Palpatine is part of the starting conditions. Like I said earlier, there's an evil Empire and therefore an evil Emperor. Everything we need to know about Palpatine, we find out through context in ESB and RotJ. The situation with Snoke is different because we already have a setup from the end of the OT and he clearly doesn't fit into it. So there's a discontinuity. Nobody is asking for a 20 minute training montage showing how he came to power or a long monologue where he explains his backstory to the audience, just some contextual clues that establish who he is and why he's leading the First Order instead of some random former Imperial Grand Moff.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on December 23, 2017, 11:31:16 AM
Yeah, if this was a stand alone movie, it would be perfectly fine (like Vader and the emperor).  But these movies are in fact sequels.  Same reason the lack of story for Kylo bugs me.  In a vacuum, its fine.  But this is the son of Han and Leia, two characters we know a lot about, and who we know would be good parents.  So he basically walks into this trilogy with an established background already, and its a total light side good guy background.  Going dark side is pretty major, and its aggravating not to be given some context as to why.  Like, if in RotJ they just said Leia is dark side now and works for the empire.  Why do you care how it happened?  Enjoy the pew pew!


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on December 23, 2017, 12:31:31 PM
the reason why there is no backstory to Ben Solo is because he is a EU character, EU meaning the expansed universe. His story line where Luke creates a new jedi order, it fails, and ben becomes a sith apprentice is straight from the EU. It was bait for the hardcore star wars fans, which is why ben solo was part of the marketing material before we even Rey or Finn. We're not told shit about his turn to the darkside because its a shot out to piece of fiction only hardcore fans know.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Surlyboi on December 23, 2017, 12:36:26 PM
How do we "know Han and Leia would be good parents"? Seriously? Their relationship was only really beginning at the end of Jedi and it got off to a really weird start. The fact that they were both kind of shit parents was fairly well established by the middle of TFA. Han was Han, a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants scoundrel that thought he could talk his way out of anything and Leia was very probably the helicopter mom that wanted her special son to "live up to his potential' The two parenting styles are very different and probably led to a lot of conflict. To just blanket throw out "we know they would be good parents" is no less ridiculous than you think parts of this film were.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 23, 2017, 01:05:07 PM
I completely understand why, as a bunch of star wars nerds, people can be grumpy that we have the OT story, and we have this story, but not the story in between.

I just don't feel it ruins this story.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 23, 2017, 01:21:41 PM
I didn't say it "RUINS" the story, I'm saying that it makes the current story very disjointed especially when considered as part of a larger arc. It takes me right out of the story when I'm TOLD "Snoke had already turned Ben to the Dark Side" instead of being shown that. That's part of what makes narratives work or not - if in the middle of the movie, I'm asking "Wait, why did that happen" then you haven't given enough. Even in Star Wars, with main, major characters, it's not enough to just say "Oh he's Dark Side" and hand wave away any objections to it, especially when that revelation doesn't jibe with where we were at the end of the OT.

I think the difference between my enjoyment of TFA (which I watched again recently and felt it held up) and TLJ is that the story in TFA kept me going along without having to stop and ask questions. Part of that is because I expected those questions to be answered later and part of it was because I was invested enough in the PEW PEW that I didn't have to pause too long. The flow of the story in TLJ didn't do that. It constantly interrupted itself with slapstick humor that felt out of place and side quests that didn't make sense (or weren't explained well) in the context of the story. The whole galaxy wide, impulse-speed chase scene REALLY hurt this movie's flow because once you establish those sorts of stakes, you can't slow up or else you lose all dramatic tension. A car chase scene doesn't work if you spend 10 minutes of slow conversation having little to do with the car chase for every 2 minutes of chase. That's why I say the movie was a mess. Pieces of it as self-contained story beats were acceptable (though not ones I'd have chosen) but as a whole narrative it's just all over the goddamn map. A better editor or writer might have been able to put it together in a more coherent structure even maintaining every major part with only minor dialogue differences.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on December 23, 2017, 01:29:10 PM
How do we "know Han and Leia would be good parents"? Seriously? Their relationship was only really beginning at the end of Jedi and it got off to a really weird start. The fact that they were both kind of shit parents was fairly well established by the middle of TFA. Han was Han, a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants scoundrel that thought he could talk his way out of anything and Leia was very probably the helicopter mom that wanted her special son to "live up to his potential' The two parenting styles are very different and probably led to a lot of conflict. To just blanket throw out "we know they would be good parents" is no less ridiculous than you think parts of this film were.

You know who make the best parents? Deadbeat dads who run away to be criminals and guerilla leaders who are more happy planning combat than working in a legislature. Both of which more than willing to give their son to a cult leader who has no experience training and only minimal experience being trained.

Snoke also does not need to be explained. He is a powerful dark side force user and that is all you need to know


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on December 23, 2017, 01:46:48 PM
TFA was a good movie. It still remains horrible star wars. Its horrible star wars because the foundations TFA laid down are weak. Your building an entire new star wars franchise that suppose to jell with at least the cannon in the movies... only for every part of the "new" lore introduce to be utter trash. TFA was bad star wars because its bad for star wars. And the Last Jedi is proof of that concept, because everything many people noted was wrong with TFA was exacerbated by the Last Jedi. Its as if you have someone who makes one racist comment and instead of apologizing just starts saying the n word for 2 hours when confronted.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 23, 2017, 01:47:22 PM
I do not get the thought that this movie is dumb. At least in terms of what it wants to do in changing much of what Star Wars fans think is going on in Star Wars, it's anything but dumb--it's thinking really hard. Much as I still do not get the charge of "lazy"--lazy to me means the people making a movie did the most obvious, most expected, most focus-group tested, paint-by-numbers things.

I get not liking the changes. I get not liking the structure of the plot. I do not get how any of it is either "dumb" or "lazy".

--------------


In ESB, you get ZERO background on the Emperor other than that he knows the Force and that Darth Vader calls him Master and that he has sensed Luke's growing mastery of the Force. (But evidently not sensed that Yoda is responsible, interestingly.) You don't know where he's from or what his deal is. You find out that Vader is indeed in armor and that he seems to be seriously injured or scarred underneath it. You don't find out why or what happened, nor will you in Return of the Jedi, either. You get virtually no background on Yoda other than that he was a legendary Jedi teacher. Where's he from? Where are the flashbacks about Yoda? Why is he alive but the rest of the Jedi dead?

You don't find out what Han Solo was smuggling for Jabba, or how long he'd been working for him. You don't find out how Han Solo and Chewbacca met (we still haven't, in canon). You don't find out exactly how Vader turned once you find out that he is in fact Anakin Skywalker. You don't find out much more about Palpatine's background in ROTJ, really. We never even have it explained what a "Sith" is in ROTJ and ESB. When we find out Leia is Luke's sister, we don't find out really why Luke was put on Tatooine (with Anakin's stepbrother, for god's sake) other than to "keep them safe from the Emperor". We *do* find out that Obi-Wan and Yoda lie a lot, though, not that the series ever really comes to grips with that.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on December 23, 2017, 02:15:22 PM
TFA was a good movie. It still remains horrible star wars. Its horrible star wars because the foundations TFA laid down are weak. Your building an entire new star wars franchise that suppose to jell with at least the cannon in the movies... only for every part of the "new" lore introduce to be utter trash. TFA was bad star wars because its bad for star wars. And the Last Jedi is proof of that concept, because everything many people noted was wrong with TFA was exacerbated by the Last Jedi. Its as if you have someone who makes one racist comment and instead of apologizing just starts saying the n word for 2 hours when confronted.

No? There was no superweapon in TLJ. It wasn’t a retread beat for beat of Episode 5. It wasn’t paced too rapidly, with no appreciable downtime between action beats. There was a sense of time with traveling in hyperspace being fast but also not instantaneous. No on was seen as a Mary Sue*

The complaints I have seen boil down to “I don’t understand theme or voice in a movie”, “it was too slow”, “it was lazy”, Luke didn’t personally suck my cock in the theater”, “I want Star Wars physics to change from what they have been in literally every Star Wars movie ever”**

MovieBob has a good segment on why this needed to happen. And TLJ was amazing.

*note that this criticism of TFA was dumb as shit but I am including it to show just how dumb your comment is.

**not only is there gravity inside all of the non-rotating ships which would have the same effect on the bombs (which were magnetized l) as it would people but there are gravity bombs in space in ESB.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Surlyboi on December 23, 2017, 02:26:58 PM
Canon explanation of the bombs for the people needing an explanation.

Quote
The B/SF-17's intended purpose was to deliver a payload of 1,048 proton bombs on top of a target. The modular bombing magazine, called the "clip" by the bomber's crew, would drop the bombs through sequenced electromagnetic plates in the clip, which propelled the bombs to "drop" in microgravity environments. The bombs would then be drawn magnetically to their targets. The assembly could be programmed to drop specific sections of the payload in sequence, but the most common configuration was "deploy all.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: IainC on December 23, 2017, 03:31:06 PM
In ESB, you get ZERO background on the Emperor other than that he knows the Force and that Darth Vader calls him Master and that he has sensed Luke's growing mastery of the Force. (But evidently not sensed that Yoda is responsible, interestingly.) You don't know where he's from or what his deal is. You find out that Vader is indeed in armor and that he seems to be seriously injured or scarred underneath it. You don't find out why or what happened, nor will you in Return of the Jedi, either. You get virtually no background on Yoda other than that he was a legendary Jedi teacher. Where's he from? Where are the flashbacks about Yoda? Why is he alive but the rest of the Jedi dead?

You don't find out what Han Solo was smuggling for Jabba, or how long he'd been working for him. You don't find out how Han Solo and Chewbacca met (we still haven't, in canon). You don't find out exactly how Vader turned once you find out that he is in fact Anakin Skywalker. You don't find out much more about Palpatine's background in ROTJ, really. We never even have it explained what a "Sith" is in ROTJ and ESB. When we find out Leia is Luke's sister, we don't find out really why Luke was put on Tatooine (with Anakin's stepbrother, for god's sake) other than to "keep them safe from the Emperor". We *do* find out that Obi-Wan and Yoda lie a lot, though, not that the series ever really comes to grips with that.

None of that extra detail is important to the continuity of the trilogy or the evolution of the story. You know who those characters are via context but there isn't a lot of exposition to explain why they are where they are. The stuff in ESB and RotJ establishing the Vader/Luke relationship is really all of it. And that's fine, because the stories aren't establishing a history, they are following the same characters through a single arc. Again though (for the third time), that isn't what is happening in TFA/TLJ. We are being shown a new scenario which very clearly builds off the ending of RotJ. We have most of the same characters, we have the First Order who are using the equipment and iconography of the Empire so there's very obviously a direct connection between what we are seeing now and what was happening then. Now, in this new continuity, there's a new character with an unusual set of abilities on the very top of the tree with no explanation of how or why. Like, nobody gives a shit what Phasma's backstory is, she's just an interchangable senior commander. Likewise Hux or any of the disposable mooks who get blown out of the sky by Poe. But we are given this enigma who doesn't fit in with what we understand the situation is. He's external to the old Empire (otherwise Palpatine and Vader would have known about him) and yet he inherits all of the remnants of it somehow? It's a safe bet that most of the other First Order senior brass are former Imperial commanders but this guy just walks in off the street and takes over in place of an existing Grand Moff.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on December 23, 2017, 03:41:51 PM
Canon explanation of the bombs for the people needing an explanation.

Quote
The B/SF-17's intended purpose was to deliver a payload of 1,048 proton bombs on top of a target. The modular bombing magazine, called the "clip" by the bomber's crew, would drop the bombs through sequenced electromagnetic plates in the clip, which propelled the bombs to "drop" in microgravity environments. The bombs would then be drawn magnetically to their targets. The assembly could be programmed to drop specific sections of the payload in sequence, but the most common configuration was "deploy all.

Fuck that, the bombs dropped because its fucking Star Wars and thats how space battles fucking work.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 23, 2017, 04:04:06 PM
"this guy walks in off the street". That's fine. Why do you need more than that? You didn't have more than that about how the Emperor became the Emperor, or how the Jedi became extinct, or how Yoda survived, yadda yadda yadda. The Emperor and Vader didn't know about Obi-Wan's survival, they didn't know about Luke and Leia, they didn't know about Yoda, in the currently valid canon, they didn't know about Darth Maul surviving (maybe because that seems so ridiculous). I think the list of things they didn't know about it only going to multiply.

So Snoke is one of the many things they didn't know about. Yay! I guarantee you that we'll get some kind of EU treatment of him eventually. You know everything you need to know about him in this movie: bad guy who has been corrupting Ben Solo for a while, who recognized that all the thumbsucking alt-right wannabee Imperial officers clustered in the Outer Rim needed an Emperor-substitute and grabbed his main chance. For all we know he's a Dark Side grifter who isn't nearly as strong as he pretends to be and that's why Kylo/Ben is able to sucker him. That's fine--he's not an actual character, he's a plot device. As was the Emperor, really.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: IainC on December 23, 2017, 04:49:54 PM
When I said Snoke was external to the Empire, I meant that he wasn't part of the Imperial military/command structure, not that he was from somewhere physically outside of the space. Given that the First Order is basically bits of the Imperial military who are consolidating under a new banner, you'd expect that the person in charge of it would be someone from that hierarchy, someone who was already in a command position.

I don't know how to explain it in a different way, I've tried three times and you still don't understand what my point is. All of those things that you mentioned in your last couple of posts that we don't know about, aren't important to the continuity of the story. I'm not just pulling random background points out and trying to claim that they all need to be explained, I'm saying that there's a lot of deliberate continuity and then this one thing that breaks it with no explanation or context. I also don't really care about the EU, I don't read the novels or comics, I don't watch the cartoon series. The cinematic releases are supposed to maintain enough consistency that you shouldn't need to have read every page on Wookiepedia to follow along. Imagine if ESB had never been made but all the events from the movie were in a Tv special and a couple of novels, RotJ would make no sense to people familiar with ANH. Or if you are reading a history of the USA and there's a random and unexplained reference to the Chief Pope of America. It undermines what you think you know, breaks the rules of the internal arcs that you have already seen and there's no context for it.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on December 23, 2017, 04:56:49 PM
In ESB, you get ZERO background on the Emperor other than that he knows the Force and that Darth Vader calls him Master and that he has sensed Luke's growing mastery of the Force. (But evidently not sensed that Yoda is responsible, interestingly.) You don't know where he's from or what his deal is. You find out that Vader is indeed in armor and that he seems to be seriously injured or scarred underneath it. You don't find out why or what happened, nor will you in Return of the Jedi, either. You get virtually no background on Yoda other than that he was a legendary Jedi teacher. Where's he from? Where are the flashbacks about Yoda? Why is he alive but the rest of the Jedi dead?

You don't find out what Han Solo was smuggling for Jabba, or how long he'd been working for him. You don't find out how Han Solo and Chewbacca met (we still haven't, in canon). You don't find out exactly how Vader turned once you find out that he is in fact Anakin Skywalker. You don't find out much more about Palpatine's background in ROTJ, really. We never even have it explained what a "Sith" is in ROTJ and ESB. When we find out Leia is Luke's sister, we don't find out really why Luke was put on Tatooine (with Anakin's stepbrother, for god's sake) other than to "keep them safe from the Emperor". We *do* find out that Obi-Wan and Yoda lie a lot, though, not that the series ever really comes to grips with that.

None of that extra detail is important to the continuity of the trilogy or the evolution of the story. You know who those characters are via context but there isn't a lot of exposition to explain why they are where they are. The stuff in ESB and RotJ establishing the Vader/Luke relationship is really all of it. And that's fine, because the stories aren't establishing a history, they are following the same characters through a single arc. Again though (for the third time), that isn't what is happening in TFA/TLJ. We are being shown a new scenario which very clearly builds off the ending of RotJ. We have most of the same characters, we have the First Order who are using the equipment and iconography of the Empire so there's very obviously a direct connection between what we are seeing now and what was happening then. Now, in this new continuity, there's a new character with an unusual set of abilities on the very top of the tree with no explanation of how or why. Like, nobody gives a shit what Phasma's backstory is, she's just an interchangable senior commander. Likewise Hux or any of the disposable mooks who get blown out of the sky by Poe. But we are given this enigma who doesn't fit in with what we understand the situation is. He's external to the old Empire (otherwise Palpatine and Vader would have known about him) and yet he inherits all of the remnants of it somehow? It's a safe bet that most of the other First Order senior brass are former Imperial commanders but this guy just walks in off the street and takes over in place of an existing Grand Moff.


Considering we currently live in a world where some asshole just walked in off the street and co-opted about 40% of the US's political apparatus i am not too shocked that this could happen.

Plus there would be a lot of institutional as well as personal inertia in play when a big time dark side force user declares that he is in charge and murders the people who disagree.

Plus, its not like that doesn't happen before your eyes in TLJ. Hux is all "well now that snoke is dead I am in charge and you will answer to 'oh nevermind yes please do not murder me'". And this isn't even getting into snokes established powers like mind control and force connection. And if we want to say "but why did it take so long" well the dark side is fast, easy, seductive. He might not have even been around or not have cared or it literally doesn't matter he was a plot device and not a character


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 23, 2017, 05:07:32 PM
I remain puzzled. Here's what is (vaguely) canon via the new EU (comics, books, a few comments in TFA). The First Order are the fragments of the Imperial war machine that either survived the battle of Jakku or that never got involved with it, plus a whole bunch of new wannabees who have made their way to the the First Order. They operate at the Rim, or at least until recently. The Resistance formed because Leia couldn't convince the Republic hierarchy that the First Order was a threat that needed to be stopped.

There is nothing in any of that which makes it impossible or difficult to understand how a Dark Side Force wielder previously unassociated with the Empire might show up and gain control of it. It's practically expected--there's a ton of examples in human history of fragmented, formerly dominant forces in retreat that give way to a new charismatic leader who helps them find purpose again--often a leader who has been operating in the area that those forces have retreated into. This is a group of people where the old guys are like the Nazis who escaped to Paraguay and the new guys are like the alt-right, where they're gathering in some ass-end place that's far from anything. Where the entire mystique of their cause is about an all-powerful Emperor who had mysterious powers. I have no idea why the idea that some Force-using grifter could just show up and take charge seems like PLEASE EXPLAIN, THIS MAKES NO SENSE.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on December 23, 2017, 05:29:52 PM
The more they explain something the shittier it gets. That's how you end up with midichlorians.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 23, 2017, 09:10:14 PM
Completely. People are forgetting: not that much was explained in the original trilogy. The best stuff was the least explained stuff, really! Do you feel better knowing exactly how Vader ended up in his suit? Exactly who Leia and Luke's mom was? Exactly how she died? Exactly who the Emperor was? Exactly what Anakin was like before he was Darth Vader? Fuck no. Not one bit.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: patience on December 23, 2017, 09:28:23 PM
We should be clear. NOBODY liked Snoke. There's only two camps now, either it's people who care about his backstory or people that don't but that character was never well regarded.

.

Plus, as much as I respect RJ for flipping JJ the massive bird by ignoring all his mystery boxes, the audience did spend years speculating on Snoke and buying product.  A little customer loyalty, even an offhand explanatory comment, could have salvaged their emotional and financial investment.

JJ wasn't flipped the bird. He was made aware of what would happen.

It's more the case that Abrams is a slacker. All this knowledge and he was still pitching ideas to Disney last month?

I get he was brought back after the 3rd director was not part of the project but he was still supervising TLJ before that happened.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 23, 2017, 09:53:23 PM
"this guy walks in off the street". That's fine. Why do you need more than that? You didn't have more than that about how the Emperor became the Emperor, or how the Jedi became extinct, or how Yoda survived, yadda yadda yadda.

Because those movies were paced, filmed, and written better than TLJ and did not have 3 decades worth of fandom, lore and history built up in them. They were not continuations of a 6-movie series, they were universe-building as they went along. And Snoke's existence as head honcho of the First Order without any explanation is jarring based on the status quo we are left with at the end of RotJ.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: lamaros on December 23, 2017, 09:53:39 PM
Completely. People are forgetting: not that much was explained in the original trilogy. The best stuff was the least explained stuff, really! Do you feel better knowing exactly how Vader ended up in his suit? Exactly who Leia and Luke's mom was? Exactly how she died? Exactly who the Emperor was? Exactly what Anakin was like before he was Darth Vader? Fuck no. Not one bit.


You don't need an exegesis for something to be internally consistent. Nor does the lack of an exegesis prevent something from being internally inconsistent.

I've not seen the movie, but it's a real stretch from the discussion in here to date to consider it worth seeing.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on December 23, 2017, 10:36:05 PM
TLJ is, at the least, the third best Star Wars film unless you have a lightsaber stuck up your ass. It’s 100% worth seeing


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: schild on December 23, 2017, 11:49:15 PM
TLJ is, at the least, the third best Star Wars film unless you have a lightsaber stuck up your ass. It’s 100% worth seeing

The only one worth seeing is Empire, and even that’s filled with bad acting and aged worse than Macaulay Caulkin.

It’s ok to like something because you saw it as a kid and it stuck with you, but Star Wars has been pretty objectively bad since jump street. Anytime some motherfucker is all “it pioneered a whole bunch of special effects and moved a genre forward,” I can’t help but think about Titanic and what a giant piece of shit it was and it effectively did the exact same fucking thing.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on December 23, 2017, 11:49:31 PM
About on par with attack of the clones (better than Phantom Menace).


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: schild on December 23, 2017, 11:50:10 PM
About on par with the clone wars (better than Phantom Menace).

Valerian was better than Phantom Menace.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on December 24, 2017, 03:22:21 AM
"this guy walks in off the street". That's fine. Why do you need more than that? You didn't have more than that about how the Emperor became the Emperor, or how the Jedi became extinct, or how Yoda survived, yadda yadda yadda.

Because those movies were paced, filmed, and written better than TLJ and did not have 3 decades worth of fandom, lore and history built up in them. They were not continuations of a 6-movie series, they were universe-building as they went along. And Snoke's existence as head honcho of the First Order without any explanation is jarring based on the status quo we are left with at the end of RotJ.

Why is it jarring? It's been 30 years in the movies too. I just don't get why this is an issue.

Let me use a bad analogy. Assume World War 1 and World War 2 aren't history but are fictional stories. In the WW1 trilogy the Germans are led by Kaiser Wilhelm. In the WW2 trilogy they're led by Hitler. There is only a bit over 20 years between those two wars.  Your issues with Snoke would be like saying "where did this Hitler guy come from? He wasn't mentioned in the WW1 trilogy and this isn't the status quo we had at the end of the original World War trilogy."

I can honestly debate good and bad things about this new trilogy. But freaking out that we don't get a backstory on Snoke is just...silly. Shit changes in 3 decades. Even if you want to argue that "he's a powerful Force user, wouldn't he  have been mentioned?" there are counter arguments within the movies. The Jedi had no idea Palpatine was Sideous. The Empire had no clue where Yoda or Kenobi were or even if they were alive. More importantly, the Jedi thought Sith were wiped out and were shocked when Darth Maul killed Qui Gon.

But more to the main point. I can't stress enough how much of a big deal 30 years is. None of the heroes of the current trilogy were even born during the original trilogy timeline. I think the oldest is Poe and he was born a couple of years after Return of the Jedi.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Malakili on December 24, 2017, 06:22:53 AM
Good: Performances, Theme, Many of the visuals (especially in the final act)

Bad: Pacing in the middle, felt kind of long (as a result of 1).

I'm a "star wars fan" and wasn't bothered by the lore stuff that is apparently making some people grumpy. The protagonists of these movies are space wizards. I can suspend my disbelief for various forms of space wizardry.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 24, 2017, 07:03:15 PM
I can honestly debate good and bad things about this new trilogy. But freaking out that we don't get a backstory on Snoke is just...silly.

Goddamn, I cannot make it any more clear than I already have. It's not even about having an elaborate backstory, it's about having any sort of explanation of what or who the fuck he is whatsoever. Literally we know that he's super important (why? Don't know) to the First Order (until he's not), he's powerful in the Force (which we saw no evidence of in the first movie), and he maybe turned Ben Solo into Kylo Ren (but again, how or why? Don't know). Show don't tell is a big time rule in writing especially in screenwriting. For the most part, the things we've seen out of Snoke come out of nowhere because there's been no evidence of things we've been told before hand. He was too much of a mystery in TFA and despite 5 1/2 hours of screen time, we really don't know anything else about him now either. But that's ok, because we really don't know diddly shit about the First Order either other than their sheer ineptitude at everything which keeps me wondering how the fuck they are a danger to the Resistance.

Most of the problems I'm highlighting are because they are questions I asked myself in the theater during the movie, which takes me right out of the flow of watching the movie. I'm not saying they can't be fixed in the next movie, but they make watching this one without the benefit of the last movie really difficult.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on December 24, 2017, 08:29:31 PM
I honestly don't understand why anything more than what we got is in any way necessary. Nothing you can learn about Snoke would make the series any better, nothing.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 24, 2017, 08:45:47 PM
Because the death of what appeared to be a major (and interesting) character in the middle of the story arc without any explanation for that character seems like a tremendous goddamn waste, especially when what we are left with for an antagonist is a whiny, petulant teenager and his snotty bottom bitch who enjoys getting force tossed against the side of an AT-AT.

As I've said, I enjoyed the movie while watching it, but the problems with the movie's structure, pacing and story choices eats at me the more I think about it afterwards.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on December 24, 2017, 11:25:01 PM
It is damn near idiotic to compare TLJ to the original trilogy.  They were made 30 to 40 years apart, the genre has evolved a lot since then, and they play different roles in the mythology - when they're the first, second, third and 9th movies... and when there is literally a hundred more hours in the official storyline before this 9th movie was released. 

A new movie in a series should CONTINUE the existing story.  It should feel like it is the next step in the story.  This movie flipped off episode 7 by writing off the importance of the identity of core characters, it rewrote the identity of the most essential figure in the mythos (Luke) from the original trilogy and it applauded itself for "being novel" rather than being part of the existing journey.  JJ at least tried to honor what came before with episode 7, although he failed in many respects.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on December 25, 2017, 12:28:22 AM
I honestly don't understand why anything more than what we got is in any way necessary. Nothing you can learn about Snoke would make the series any better, nothing.

Maybe because he is a bad character and villain and the fact that his death means nothing really kills are dramatic tension in the film and franchise.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on December 25, 2017, 12:36:07 AM
I honestly don't understand why anything more than what we got is in any way necessary. Nothing you can learn about Snoke would make the series any better, nothing.

Maybe because he is a bad character and villain and the fact that his death means nothing really kills are dramatic tension in the film and franchise.

His death has plenty of meaning. It just has nothing to do with his backstory because his backstory doesn’t matter. You know everything you need to know about his relationship to Kylo with what is presented in the first two movies of this trilogy.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Soulflame on December 25, 2017, 12:59:46 AM
I didn't think the casino really felt out of place.  It showed where the real power brokers and wealthy hang out to have fun.  Or whatever.

Much of the places we've seen in the movies have been the ass end of nowhere.  The places Luke and Rey came from had few people.  The rebel bases are on planets that are essentially useless for human habitation, in order to be more difficult to be found.

Someone has to be bankrolling all of those capital class ships that are constantly being blown up.  It makes an evil sort of sense that there exists an entire class of people creating political strife and warfare for their own personal enrichment.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Velorath on December 25, 2017, 02:42:35 AM
I honestly don't understand why anything more than what we got is in any way necessary. Nothing you can learn about Snoke would make the series any better, nothing.

Maybe because he is a bad character and villain and the fact that his death means nothing really kills are dramatic tension in the film and franchise.

His death has plenty of meaning. It just has nothing to do with his backstory because his backstory doesn’t matter. You know everything you need to know about his relationship to Kylo with what is presented in the first two movies of this trilogy.

Does his death have much meaning though? TLJ feels a lot like an episode of a TV series to me in that it introduces these character arcs and then resolves them by the time the movie has ended and for the most part the characters aren't left that different than how they started at the beginning. We're shown that Poe (one of the least fleshed out TFA characters) is a hothead who charges into action rather than taking the time to look at the big picture but by the end he's learned to be a little wiser. Rey is in danger of succumbing to the dark side and there's a chance Kylo could be brought to the light, but in the end neither of them cross over to the other side. Luke has lost faith but finds it in the end and aside from being dead now has ended up back more in-line with what we'd expect from the OT. Plot-wise, Kylo now runs the First Order and the Resistance have been reduced to a handful of people and that is about the extent to which the ball has been moved down the field in this movie.

In theory Kylo killing Snoke is supposed to show that he's moved past his internal conflict and is committed to the Dark Side and burning down his past, but "guy who killed his father Han Solo in the last movie is still evil" isn't exactly a shocking character development.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on December 25, 2017, 04:12:45 AM
I can honestly debate good and bad things about this new trilogy. But freaking out that we don't get a backstory on Snoke is just...silly.

Goddamn, I cannot make it any more clear than I already have. It's not even about having an elaborate backstory, it's about having any sort of explanation of what or who the fuck he is whatsoever. Literally we know that he's super important (why? Don't know) to the First Order (until he's not), he's powerful in the Force (which we saw no evidence of in the first movie), and he maybe turned Ben Solo into Kylo Ren (but again, how or why? Don't know). Show don't tell is a big time rule in writing especially in screenwriting. For the most part, the things we've seen out of Snoke come out of nowhere because there's been no evidence of things we've been told before hand. He was too much of a mystery in TFA and despite 5 1/2 hours of screen time, we really don't know anything else about him now either. But that's ok, because we really don't know diddly shit about the First Order either other than their sheer ineptitude at everything which keeps me wondering how the fuck they are a danger to the Resistance.

Most of the problems I'm highlighting are because they are questions I asked myself in the theater during the movie, which takes me right out of the flow of watching the movie. I'm not saying they can't be fixed in the next movie, but they make watching this one without the benefit of the last movie really difficult.

This is actually more than we knew about Emperor Palpatine as of ESB. We didn't even know he had turned Vader. We knew he ruled the Empire and that even Vader answered to him. We knew he was worried about Luke being powerful. I don't think it's even clear he is a force user though appearing as a robed old dude in a hologram certainly implied evil space wizard.

The new trilogy has its issues but this fixation on Snoke isn't one of them. We really know all we need to know: 1) He is a powerful force user 2) he rules the First Order 3) he seduced Kylo Ren to the dark side.

How he came to power in the 30 years after the original trilogy isn't important. Exactly how he seduced Kylo isn't important. A list of his force abilities isn't important. What's important is his role in the story which honestly may not be over since Disney is apparently letting each team make its own decisions about the episodes. JJ could say it was all a trick, another Force hologram. He could have Snoke come back as an evil version of a Force ghost. Or he could simply go with what happened on screen and make Kylo the big bad.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on December 25, 2017, 10:04:02 AM
I can honestly debate good and bad things about this new trilogy. But freaking out that we don't get a backstory on Snoke is just...silly.

Goddamn, I cannot make it any more clear than I already have. It's not even about having an elaborate backstory, it's about having any sort of explanation of what or who the fuck he is whatsoever. Literally we know that he's super important (why? Don't know) to the First Order (until he's not), he's powerful in the Force (which we saw no evidence of in the first movie), and he maybe turned Ben Solo into Kylo Ren (but again, how or why? Don't know). Show don't tell is a big time rule in writing especially in screenwriting. For the most part, the things we've seen out of Snoke come out of nowhere because there's been no evidence of things we've been told before hand. He was too much of a mystery in TFA and despite 5 1/2 hours of screen time, we really don't know anything else about him now either. But that's ok, because we really don't know diddly shit about the First Order either other than their sheer ineptitude at everything which keeps me wondering how the fuck they are a danger to the Resistance.

Most of the problems I'm highlighting are because they are questions I asked myself in the theater during the movie, which takes me right out of the flow of watching the movie. I'm not saying they can't be fixed in the next movie, but they make watching this one without the benefit of the last movie really difficult.

This is actually more than we knew about Emperor Palpatine as of ESB. We didn't even know he had turned Vader. We knew he ruled the Empire and that even Vader answered to him. We knew he was worried about Luke being powerful. I don't think it's even clear he is a force user though appearing as a robed old dude in a hologram certainly implied evil space wizard.

The new trilogy has its issues but this fixation on Snoke isn't one of them. We really know all we need to know: 1) He is a powerful force user 2) he rules the First Order 3) he seduced Kylo Ren to the dark side.

How he came to power in the 30 years after the original trilogy isn't important. Exactly how he seduced Kylo isn't important. A list of his force abilities isn't important. What's important is his role in the story which honestly may not be over since Disney is apparently letting each team make its own decisions about the episodes. JJ could say it was all a trick, another Force hologram. He could have Snoke come back as an evil version of a Force ghost. Or he could simply go with what happened on screen and make Kylo the big bad.



The reason why "evil space wizard head of the empire 2.0" isn't enough because of the end of ESB. But lets go back to equivalents. The argument that Palptine didn't need development or explanation so neither does Snoke is a fallacy. They may occupy the same chair but they don't serve the same thematic roles. Vader by himself was a great villain who pushed around the characters on screen. He was a wall to overcome, a wall who seemed near impossible to overcome, that presented a lot of the emotional, spiritual and physical threat to our heroes. He wasn't just the big bad, he was The Bad, the physical and near omnipresent face of the Empire. If this was a cake, Vadar would be everything but the icing. Palptine was great icing, because he made "that guy" the guy who took no shit from his fellow officers say the word master. Palptine let us know that the Empire was even bigger still than Darth Vader and ultimately Luke's quest to defeat Vader, a quest given to him on Yoda's death bed, may have been a little pointless.

In comparison Ben Solo is none of those things. He isn't the face of the first order, he isn't some wall that our heroes need to overcome. He is what fans often say "a villain in training" or some shyt. From a story telling perspective if that guy isn't who the movie says we should care about than who is? Nobody? Well that's dumb might as well stay home and not watch this shyt. Obviously Snoke is the one who we has the audience to this shyt should be caring about, he turned Ben Solo to the darkside, orchestrated the murder of the new jedi order, and rules the empire v2. Obviously his story and the conflict that comes with overcoming that character is what we're watching these movies for. Well according the The Last Jedi, and the fanboys that's not the case either. So who is providing the conflict that we need so we can have stakes, and tension or drama. Who is the emotional, spiritual and physical threat to our heroes if we already established that Ben Solo is definitely NOT that guy? Nobody you say? Well looks like you failed at movie making, young adult novels for teenage girls to the right you go.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: BobtheSomething on December 25, 2017, 01:46:24 PM
On another board, someone pointed out that all the "backstory doesn't matter because drama" doesn't really pan out.  If you cut the spice of the story to get right to the meat, then the story better not skimp on the meat, right?  But when Rey and Ren finish overthrowing the Snoke regime, Rey discovers that Ren is not saved and they fight a battle of wills over the legacy lightsaber--and destroy it!  There is a huge flash and now these two pivotal characters stare each other down with nothing between them, no legacy to get in the way of this fresh, dynamic conflict.  Just Rey and Ren, the unturned and the unsaved in a universe overturned.  This is it!  This is the moment!  Conflict in the raw, right here, right now.  How will it end?


Fuck knows because the next time we see these characters, Ren is alone and Rey is on the Falcon.

I guess the resolution to the most personal conflict established in the film is unimportant to the film.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ruvaldt on December 25, 2017, 02:23:37 PM
I guess the resolution to the most personal conflict established in the film is unimportant to the film.

You do know that there's going to be another Star Wars movie, right?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: BobtheSomething on December 25, 2017, 02:32:39 PM
I guess the resolution to the most personal conflict established in the film is unimportant to the film.

You do know that there's going to be another Star Wars movie, right?

Are you saying we didn't need to see how they reacted to each other or how Rey got out of that situation and escaped from the big ship of doom?  If the confrontation and the escape aren't important, what is?

Besides, TLJ pretty much buried the idea that "we'll see this resolved in the next film".


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 25, 2017, 05:18:39 PM
Because, as many people pointed out at the time, the notion that the giant space Empire was finished because the leader was blown up in a desperate attack and they lost a big ship is not terribly satisfying. Like, there are no evil empires ever that are just defeated because the good guys send in an underpowered force that makes a hail mary move and gets lucky. They just lose a battle, it takes a lot longer to lose a war.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Malakili on December 25, 2017, 06:36:13 PM
I guess the resolution to the most personal conflict established in the film is unimportant to the film.

You do know that there's going to be another Star Wars movie, right?

Are you saying we didn't need to see how they reacted to each other or how Rey got out of that situation and escaped from the big ship of doom?  If the confrontation and the escape aren't important, what is?

Besides, TLJ pretty much buried the idea that "we'll see this resolved in the next film".

We saw the confrontation, they stalemated. She escaped after the explosion and a scene of her coming to and running to ship isn't really going to make that any more emotionally impactful.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on December 25, 2017, 10:00:06 PM
I honestly don't understand why anything more than what we got is in any way necessary. Nothing you can learn about Snoke would make the series any better, nothing.

Maybe because he is a bad character and villain and the fact that his death means nothing really kills are dramatic tension in the film and franchise.

His death has plenty of meaning. It just has nothing to do with his backstory because his backstory doesn’t matter. You know everything you need to know about his relationship to Kylo with what is presented in the first two movies of this trilogy.

Does his death have much meaning though?


Yes. He death has loads of meaning to Kylo.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Velorath on December 25, 2017, 10:47:36 PM
I honestly don't understand why anything more than what we got is in any way necessary. Nothing you can learn about Snoke would make the series any better, nothing.

Maybe because he is a bad character and villain and the fact that his death means nothing really kills are dramatic tension in the film and franchise.

His death has plenty of meaning. It just has nothing to do with his backstory because his backstory doesn’t matter. You know everything you need to know about his relationship to Kylo with what is presented in the first two movies of this trilogy.

Does his death have much meaning though?


Yes. He death has loads of meaning to Kylo.

How? It's set up like this is supposed to be Kylo going full Dark Side and no longer being conflicted, but that's also what killing Han in the last movie was supposed to do. All they did was backpedal on his character development by having him be unable to fire on Leia, and now killing Snoke is supposed to be a more pivotal moment for him than killing one of his parents?

It doesn't work and feels like the whole reason for that sequence is to redo Vader turning on Palpatine in ROTJ and then subverting expectations by not having Kylo turn back to the Light like Vader did.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 25, 2017, 11:03:16 PM
It doesn't work and feels like the whole reason for that sequence is to redo Vader turning on Palpatine in ROTJ and then subverting expectations by not having Kylo turn back to the Light like Vader did.

This. Lots of the story and character decisions they made felt like they were there merely to subvert expectations than for any good story reasons.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on December 25, 2017, 11:42:42 PM
I honestly don't understand why anything more than what we got is in any way necessary. Nothing you can learn about Snoke would make the series any better, nothing.

Maybe because he is a bad character and villain and the fact that his death means nothing really kills are dramatic tension in the film and franchise.

His death has plenty of meaning. It just has nothing to do with his backstory because his backstory doesn’t matter. You know everything you need to know about his relationship to Kylo with what is presented in the first two movies of this trilogy.

Does his death have much meaning though?


Yes. He death has loads of meaning to Kylo.

How? It's set up like this is supposed to be Kylo going full Dark Side and no longer being conflicted, but that's also what killing Han in the last movie was supposed to do. All they did was backpedal on his character development by having him be unable to fire on Leia, and now killing Snoke is supposed to be a more pivotal moment for him than killing one of his parents?

It doesn't work and feels like the whole reason for that sequence is to redo Vader turning on Palpatine in ROTJ and then subverting expectations by not having Kylo turn back to the Light like Vader did.

It is a rejection of the master/student relationship.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ruvaldt on December 26, 2017, 01:01:46 AM
Yes.  But even more than that.  I think it's a rejection of the Light/Dark dynamic.  Velorath says that he's supposed to become uber-dark after killing Snoke...I think he's rejecting the whole system.  Kylo killing Snoke isn't about dark or light, and I don't recall Kylo ever mentioning the dark side to Rey in that scene at all.  He wants to destroy the past, burn it all, and create something new in its ruins.  He pretty much says it; you have to kill the past, etc.  Funny, too, since Snoke actually gave him the idea at the top of the movie; it's what drives him to destroy his mask.

The point of the Casino scene is that it shows that the First Order and the Resistance are both being manipulated by a powerful, wealthy elite.  The war is, and always has been, a sham.  Even going back to the Clone Wars and the Empire vs. Rebellion period.  It's something that rich people dreamed up and perpetuated to keep making themselves even richer while they sit around on their pleasure planet and other people die for some meaningless cause.

That's the real essence of this movie.  It's a call to reject the past so that you can become your own person, unfettered by past mistakes.  Luke throws away his lightsaber.  Kylo destroys his mask.  Yoda/Luke destroy the Jedi books (though they really don't because Rey saves them).  Kylo kills Snoke.  It's a theme that repeats throughout the film.  Kylo attempting to kill Skywalker at the end is also an extension of that, though of course it also has a touch of personal vendetta.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Velorath on December 26, 2017, 01:55:20 AM
Yes.  But even more than that.  I think it's a rejection of the Light/Dark dynamic.  Velorath says that he's supposed to become uber-dark after killing Snoke...I think he's rejecting the whole system.  Kylo killing Snoke isn't about dark or light, and I don't recall Kylo ever mentioning the dark side to Rey in that scene at all.  He wants to destroy the past, burn it all, and create something new in its ruins.  He pretty much says it; you have to kill the past, etc.  Funny, too, since Snoke actually gave him the idea at the top of the movie; it's what drives him to destroy his mask.

I'd maybe buy into that interpretation a little bit more if Kylo wanted to destroy the First Order also and wasn't just hellbent on murdering the Resistance and Luke. He's not rejecting anything he hadn't already rejected aside from Snoke himself, and all he's done there is usurped Snoke's place in things and continued on with exactly what Snoke was already doing.

His character is largely unchanged after killing Snoke and he even still comes across like the same unhinged child trying to act like he's an adult. It's just that throughout the movie we've been teased with Rey sensing the good still in him which again is meant to evoke Luke's feelings about Vader in ROTJ in order to subvert that later. Kylo's whole character arc in this movie is that we're led to think he might change and then he doesn't. Rey gets that arc as well.

This movie has big themes it's trying to get across (all of which I think are outright stated by characters at various times) but I don't think it carries any of them through to successful conclusions.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 26, 2017, 05:36:20 AM
He explicitly said he wanted to destroy both.

I don't really buy the idea that this was trying anything interesting with light/dark. But it was saying the jedi don't own the light and the FO are not sole suppliers of the dark.

I took it that both Rey and Ben were still up for grabs by the light or dark until the throne room scene. At that point they were forced to chose their alignment with a couple of lines of dialogue in classic bioware style.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 26, 2017, 09:32:13 AM
The point of the Casino scene is that it shows that the First Order and the Resistance are both being manipulated by a powerful, wealthy elite.

That might be a great direction to take the franchise... only there has never, ever, not in 7 previous movies EVER been any indication that was the case. Never. Palpatine never seemed to need the wealthy elite to create the clone troopers. Never once was it mentioned that anyone needed a wealthy elite to create weapons of mass destruction. In the prequels, we saw many weapons factories and never once did we hear about them being funded by a wealthy elite. Again, it's all well and good if this is the first of a series or a standalone movie, but this is building off a legacy of many many movies and TV series. Dropping that in now, especially in a setting that really doesn't feel like Star Wars (like not even night clubs on Coruscant had that kind of aesthetic) is jarring and doesn't really serve the story well at all.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 26, 2017, 09:36:43 AM
Taking prequels as canon means a whole lot of shit that doesn't make ANY sense is part of the lore.  It may be late in the game to start adding more depth to the universe but I welcome it. Also the whole casino sequence was done badly but I appreciate what they were trying to do with it.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 26, 2017, 09:43:33 AM
Taking prequels as canon means a whole lot of shit that doesn't make ANY sense is part of the lore. 

While I agree wholeheartedly with that, Disney had every opportunity to shitcan that entire bit of lore and they chose to keep it.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on December 26, 2017, 10:00:23 AM
Yes.  But even more than that.  I think it's a rejection of the Light/Dark dynamic.  Velorath says that he's supposed to become uber-dark after killing Snoke...I think he's rejecting the whole system.  Kylo killing Snoke isn't about dark or light, and I don't recall Kylo ever mentioning the dark side to Rey in that scene at all.  He wants to destroy the past, burn it all, and create something new in its ruins.  He pretty much says it; you have to kill the past, etc.  Funny, too, since Snoke actually gave him the idea at the top of the movie; it's what drives him to destroy his mask.
I'd maybe buy into that interpretation a little bit more if Kylo wanted to destroy the First Order also and wasn't just hellbent on murdering the Resistance and Luke. He's not rejecting anything he hadn't already rejected aside from Snoke himself, and all he's done there is usurped Snoke's place in things and continued on with exactly what Snoke was already doing.

His character is largely unchanged after killing Snoke and he even still comes across like the same unhinged child trying to act like he's an adult. It's just that throughout the movie we've been teased with Rey sensing the good still in him which again is meant to evoke Luke's feelings about Vader in ROTJ in order to subvert that later. Kylo's whole character arc in this movie is that we're led to think he might change and then he doesn't. Rey gets that arc as well.

This movie has big themes it's trying to get across (all of which I think are outright stated by characters at various times) but I don't think it carries any of them through to successful conclusions.
Agreed.  The movie can't make up its mind and has a hard time staying consistent.  Not only the Snoke thing, but as others mentioned, him killing Han was suppose to be the big choice that sealed the deal Dark Side for him.  But wait, now he is still struggling yet again on killing Leia and has to make a choice?  Struggles again in the throne room and makes a choice?  I look forward to when he has to yet again make a dramatic choice between on if he will finally go light or dark in the next film.  Several times.

The point of the Casino scene is that it shows that the First Order and the Resistance are both being manipulated by a powerful, wealthy elite.

That might be a great direction to take the franchise... only there has never, ever, not in 7 previous movies EVER been any indication that was the case. Never. Palpatine never seemed to need the wealthy elite to create the clone troopers. Never once was it mentioned that anyone needed a wealthy elite to create weapons of mass destruction. In the prequels, we saw many weapons factories and never once did we hear about them being funded by a wealthy elite. Again, it's all well and good if this is the first of a series or a standalone movie, but this is building off a legacy of many many movies and TV series. Dropping that in now, especially in a setting that really doesn't feel like Star Wars (like not even night clubs on Coruscant had that kind of aesthetic) is jarring and doesn't really serve the story well at all.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly.  Never up until this point has there been any indication that this is the case.  And it would be the dumbest thing ever if they tried to insert heavy handed terrible 1% "rich people really cause all the wars" conspiracy theories into it.  The series is about good/evil fighting at its lightest, and great power politics/ideology at its deepest. 


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 26, 2017, 10:09:14 AM
Agreed.  The movie can't make up its mind and has a hard time staying consistent.  Not only the Snoke thing, but as others mentioned, him killing Han was suppose to be the big choice that sealed the deal Dark Side for him.  But wait, now he is still struggling yet again on killing Leia and has to make a choice? 

I'll nitpick this one a bit just because I prefer the way they did it.  Ren was obviously very troubled by killing Han and it's even mentioned in the film. Also killing a dad you likely blame a lot of shit on, probably for not being around much is way different than killing your mom who you likely have affection for.  Going to the darkside should not be like flipping a switch and suddenly you're slaughtering a room full of younglings so having this slower descent into "the darkside" for me works better.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on December 26, 2017, 10:15:22 AM
Eh, I get it, but that's how they always treated it though.  I mean, yeah, prequels suck, but Anakin just snaps there.  Then in RotJ, it was basically portrayed that if Luke killed his father as the emperor was manipulating, he'd fully let the dark side take control of his emotions, become evil, and join with the emperor.  Big sudden choices that control if the dark side takes control of you or not.  They even sort of kept it on with Luke freaking out about how Rei just looked right into the dark side abyss without care.  That's how it takes control of you and makes you evil before you realize it.  Why the Jedi felt they needed to control their emotions so carefully.

Now, if Kylo keeps having to make the Luke Skywalker choice over, and over, and over (and seems to keep choosing wrong), it loses emotional impact, as well as not being very consistent.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Velorath on December 26, 2017, 11:23:35 AM
Agreed.  The movie can't make up its mind and has a hard time staying consistent.  Not only the Snoke thing, but as others mentioned, him killing Han was suppose to be the big choice that sealed the deal Dark Side for him.  But wait, now he is still struggling yet again on killing Leia and has to make a choice? 

I'll nitpick this one a bit just because I prefer the way they did it.  Ren was obviously very troubled by killing Han and it's even mentioned in the film. Also killing a dad you likely blame a lot of shit on, probably for not being around much is way different than killing your mom who you likely have affection for.  Going to the darkside should not be like flipping a switch and suddenly you're slaughtering a room full of younglings so having this slower descent into "the darkside" for me works better.

I'm ok with moral ambiguity in SW but I don't think murdering one's dad, no matter how much of an absentee parent he might have been, is one of those grey areas. I realize that's an issue that goes back to Vader's Force equivalent of deathbed repentance after a lifetime of child-killing, planet-exploding evil, but if we have to debate whether or not patricide really marks a commitment to the Dark Side then morality in SW is completely broken.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Surlyboi on December 26, 2017, 12:19:23 PM
The real reason Kylo killed Han.

(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/061/444/36c.jpg)


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 26, 2017, 01:03:22 PM
I don't think tLJ has any shades of grey in its morality. I don't think it shifts away from a hard light/dark split or introduced any moral ambiguity.

What it does do is acknowledge that organisations like the jedi are not automatically good/bad (not a new thing given the history of the Republic and Empire) and that individuals can switch sides (not a new thing since it is a theme of every single star wars film) and that sometimes people capable of good, also do bad, and vice versa.

It didn't go where I thought it might - into the genuinely grey territory of 'how do we balance the dark and the light' or 'is light always inherently right?' or even 'is an amount of dark ok in service of a greater good?'.

Characters walk a path between light and dark like in every star wars film. But individual actions are always clearly in one column or the other.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on December 26, 2017, 04:54:08 PM


In comparison Ben Solo is none of those things. He isn't the face of the first order, he isn't some wall that our heroes need to overcome. He is what fans often say "a villain in training" or some shyt. From a story telling perspective if that guy isn't who the movie says we should care about than who is? Nobody? Well that's dumb might as well stay home and not watch this shyt. Obviously Snoke is the one who we has the audience to this shyt should be caring about, he turned Ben Solo to the darkside, orchestrated the murder of the new jedi order, and rules the empire v2. Obviously his story and the conflict that comes with overcoming that character is what we're watching these movies for. Well according the The Last Jedi, and the fanboys that's not the case either. So who is providing the conflict that we need so we can have stakes, and tension or drama. Who is the emotional, spiritual and physical threat to our heroes if we already established that Ben Solo is definitely NOT that guy? Nobody you say? Well looks like you failed at movie making, young adult novels for teenage girls to the right you go.

Ben Solo is not Vader, this is true. In fact, his entire arc in this movie was basically about him giving up on that. The moment in the throne room when Snoke flat out tells him A) you'll never be Vader and B) your mask is stupid is a huge turning point. When Kylo smashes his helmet in the elevator it is yet another temper tantrum. But it is also very symbolic. From that moment on Kylo stops trying to live up to the past and his entire focus becomes destroying the past and getting power for himself. Heck, those lines are right there in the trailer. Is it lazy writing to have Kylo explicitly tell us his new motivations? Yeah. Though sadly it is common in Hollywood these days. See: Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 2 for another good (bad) example.

I wasn't watching these movies for Snoke and I don't know anyone who was. True, it's anecdotal and people have different things they want out of the movie. Am I worried Kylo isn't a strong enough threat to give sufficient dramatic conflict in the next movie? Yes I am. I'm worried about the next movie anyway because it's being co-written by the Batman vs Superman guy so if we're unlucky we'll get this:

Rey is about to be killed by Kylo. "Save Leah!"
Kylo: "Why did you say that name?!?!?!"
Finn: "It's her mother's name, she just found out! Hux is holding her hostage."
Kylo turns off saber: "I'll save her, you stop the First Order."

If JJ is smart they'll have it turn out that Snoke was just using a force projection in the throne room like Luke did or he is a Force Spirit that can possess other bodies. I saw a fairly good Youtube video that made the case that Snoke's body was weak and crippled and that he not only knew Kylo was going to attack him but goaded him into it so he could get a new body. The best body would be Kylo's in my opinion. That said, I think we have like a 1% chance this will happen though I've seen JJ do some good writing in the past. (Fringe for example had some great episodes he wrote.)

Anyway, this is my long winded way of saying that I wasn't watching these movies for Snoke anymore than I watched the OT for Palpatine. Or even Vader.


The point of the Casino scene is that it shows that the First Order and the Resistance are both being manipulated by a powerful, wealthy elite.

That might be a great direction to take the franchise... only there has never, ever, not in 7 previous movies EVER been any indication that was the case. Never. Palpatine never seemed to need the wealthy elite to create the clone troopers. Never once was it mentioned that anyone needed a wealthy elite to create weapons of mass destruction. In the prequels, we saw many weapons factories and never once did we hear about them being funded by a wealthy elite. Again, it's all well and good if this is the first of a series or a standalone movie, but this is building off a legacy of many many movies and TV series. Dropping that in now, especially in a setting that really doesn't feel like Star Wars (like not even night clubs on Coruscant had that kind of aesthetic) is jarring and doesn't really serve the story well at all.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly.  Never up until this point has there been any indication that this is the case.  And it would be the dumbest thing ever if they tried to insert heavy handed terrible 1% "rich people really cause all the wars" conspiracy theories into it.  The series is about good/evil fighting at its lightest, and great power politics/ideology at its deepest. 

Arguably in the prequels we do actually see this. The Separatists are almost entirely funded by big companies including, explicitly, a large bank. True, they were all controlled by Palpatine but it is there to some extent. As bad as the writing is, Episode 1 even makes it clear that that first conflict was entirely about money and corporations being pissed about taxes. Episode 2 clearly sets up the other side as large corporate interests getting tired of the Republic telling them what to do. It's somewhat subtle but that's mostly because Lucas was more concerned with "Ani" and Yoda leaping around like an idiot.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on December 26, 2017, 04:56:20 PM
Accidental doublepost when attempting to edit. Derp!


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 26, 2017, 05:11:52 PM
Going to make a prediction now. Snoke is actually Kylo Ren's Tyler Durden.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on December 26, 2017, 08:50:32 PM
Going to make a prediction now. Snoke is actually Kylo Ren's Tyler Durden.  :why_so_serious:

I know you're being silly but I'd love to see the "A Star Wars story" movies really take some risks and branch out. A horror story or a psychological thriller could be interesting if done right. Like, an insane force wielding serial killer hunted by a cynical police detective in the lower levels of Coruscant or something.

Sadly, Disney will just explore the backstories of characters for now. Han, Kenobi, Boba Fett, etc.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 26, 2017, 09:19:10 PM
I'm actually only being half silly on that one. If Rian Johnson was doing IX, I'd think it was a distinct possibility. Abrams, however, would never do something that whacked.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Draegan on December 27, 2017, 07:56:13 AM
Eh, I get it, but that's how they always treated it though.  I mean, yeah, prequels suck, but Anakin just snaps there.  Then in RotJ, it was basically portrayed that if Luke killed his father as the emperor was manipulating, he'd fully let the dark side take control of his emotions, become evil, and join with the emperor.  Big sudden choices that control if the dark side takes control of you or not.  They even sort of kept it on with Luke freaking out about how Rei just looked right into the dark side abyss without care.  That's how it takes control of you and makes you evil before you realize it.  Why the Jedi felt they needed to control their emotions so carefully.

Now, if Kylo keeps having to make the Luke Skywalker choice over, and over, and over (and seems to keep choosing wrong), it loses emotional impact, as well as not being very consistent.

Ren thought that killing his dad would just flip a switch and all of his problems would go away. It just created more for him. He was, up until the end ifbth movie, trying to find the one act that would bring him peace of self. He was trying to believed that snoke was truth but couldn't make himself believe it.

It's actually more realistic than a shitty quest to kill dad to get the ultimate dark side point reward to fill up your faction bar.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Draegan on December 27, 2017, 08:00:11 AM
There any theories out there comparing snokes appearance in TFA and TLJ then showing how luke looked younger and better groomed in his force projection?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on December 27, 2017, 10:27:30 AM
There. Is. No. Plan. If Snoke is alive in the next movie it will be because JJ wants him alive, not because Rian Johnson planned it that way.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on December 27, 2017, 10:58:03 AM
There. Is. No. Plan. If Snoke is alive in the next movie it will be because JJ wants him alive, not because Rian Johnson planned it that way.
That is what they've stated over and over.  Conspiracy "thinkers" will not believe it, but Rian has said that he took what JJ gave him and Disney allowed him to evolve it as he saw fit, and that Disney will give JJ the same permission to modify what he did - but in his mind, Rey is not a Kenobi, Snoke is dead, and Kylo Ren is now a real threatening badass.  So, clearly, we can't trust everything he thinks.

Man, I want to see someone do a 10 minute remake of TLJ as an early 1900s style silent movie melodrama.  I can just see Kylo getting foiled over and over by the hero/heroine....


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 27, 2017, 05:21:58 PM
Well, because you know this Very Serious Movie Series has never previously been at all like pulp antecedents. Endless exchanges about "You must pay the rent!"  and "I can't pay the rent!" isn't very far away from the "Luke Skywalker comes back and totally deFEATS evil forevers until the next installment!!!!" and "We get thirty minutes of Snoke's totes fascinating backstory" desires that I'm seeing.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: SurfD on December 28, 2017, 02:02:22 AM
Canon explanation of the bombs for the people needing an explanation.

Quote
The B/SF-17's intended purpose was to deliver a payload of 1,048 proton bombs on top of a target. The modular bombing magazine, called the "clip" by the bomber's crew, would drop the bombs through sequenced electromagnetic plates in the clip, which propelled the bombs to "drop" in microgravity environments. The bombs would then be drawn magnetically to their targets. The assembly could be programmed to drop specific sections of the payload in sequence, but the most common configuration was "deploy all.

Fuck that, the bombs dropped because its fucking Star Wars and thats how space battles fucking work.
The bombers never really bothered me (sort of because of the above).  There are a HOST of other things that should bother you significantly more if you want to point out that starwars space physics is shit. 
For example:
- Appearently, the laws of space travel don't apply in the Starwars Galaxy, or at least, nobody has ever figured out that Constant Thrust = Constant Acceleration (which makes the entire chase sequence even more mind numbingly stupid than it already is).
- ARCING cannon fire?  ?!?  Dafuq?  That's not how zero g ballistics work......
- Poe pulls a proper, vector based space navigation manouver during that initial assault on the Dreadnaught cannons, and then magically seems to forget such proper spaceflight is possible for the entire rest of the movie....
- Spaceships, everywhere, "falling down" when shot, as if there is gravity in space.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on December 28, 2017, 02:43:30 AM
1) the rebel ships speed up to outrun the star destroyers and then modulate thrust back when they’re out of range to conserve fuel. Both fleets are then accelerating at the same speed keeping things static. When a ship runs out of fuel it stops accelerating and the Star destroyers catch up. Additionally the thrust failing unenvenly produces a rotational vector that mimics a ship falling.

To a frame of reference which is following either the star destroyers or the resistance this looks precisely like a chase scene under heavy friction.

2) Blasters and turbo lasers are not ballistic weapons.

3) Poe uhh doesn’t fly the rest of the movie

4) there is indeed gravity in space and large ships not traveling in stable orbits will fall towards the most present gravity well when they lose power of which there usually is one within a close proximity

5) it’s a fucking movie and those are the least egregious problems with space in it by far if you’re going to nitpick.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: IainC on December 28, 2017, 06:00:54 AM
"We get thirty minutes of Snoke's totes fascinating backstory" desires that I'm seeing.


Not a single person is asking for this. Stop being dumb.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Draegan on December 28, 2017, 07:32:45 AM
"We get thirty minutes of Snoke's totes fascinating backstory" desires that I'm seeing.


Not a single person is asking for this. Stop being dumb.

Plenty of people are on the interwebs.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: IainC on December 28, 2017, 07:44:41 AM
"I wish we had more context for who Snoke is and how he got to be where he is" =/= "Can we please have a 30 minute monologue or training montage where we have his entire life story explained to the audience."


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on December 28, 2017, 09:13:21 AM
"I wish we had more context for who Snoke is and how he got to be where he is" =/= "Can we please have a 30 minute monologue or training montage where we have his entire life story explained to the audience."

I wish we had a movie where our heroes have something to overcome beyond audience boredom. 


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on December 28, 2017, 09:32:15 AM
Yeah, we'll get Snoke's backstory and see more of young Ben Solo. The next animated series seems to be very likely to be the story of Luke's young Jedi Academy. The development timing schedule of it seems to align pretty much perfectly so that it can build based upon the final version of TlJ. It has to be tied to something in TLJ, and unless we get a Tale of the Stableboy, this seems like the obvious choice. 

As for seeing Star Wars try to do other types of films, there is a series of Clone Wars episodes that attempt to do this very thing: War Movies, Monster Movies, Buddy Cop, etc... in a 3 or 4 episode connecting story, just enough material for a short movie. Not quite the same, but good testing waters. I could see them doing a non-numbered film that tells the story of a Rebel Group struggling for survival on a crazy planet or a political thriller on the new Capital World.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on December 28, 2017, 12:31:15 PM
There any theories out there comparing snokes appearance in TFA and TLJ then showing how luke looked younger and better groomed in his force projection?

I've seen quite a few. Snoke does arguably look "better" than he did in TFA but it's hard to tell for sure. His scars don't look quite as good.

There. Is. No. Plan. If Snoke is alive in the next movie it will be because JJ wants him alive, not because Rian Johnson planned it that way.

There never was. Lucas used to claim he had a big plan but he was making it up as he went along. However, there is nothing to say this wasn't Rian's intention and that he told JJ this. "Btw, I tried to make it appear Snoke might actually not be dead." JJ of course can do what he wants with that information assuming it is true.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on December 28, 2017, 04:24:50 PM
I'm pretty sure lucas did have a plan for 1-3.

Reasonably accurate leaked story drafts were abundant on the 1990s internet.

From everything he and Disney have said he also had a plan for 7-9 but Disney decided to chuck it.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on December 28, 2017, 04:40:33 PM
...
There. Is. No. Plan. If Snoke is alive in the next movie it will be because JJ wants him alive, not because Rian Johnson planned it that way.

There never was. Lucas used to claim he had a big plan but he was making it up as he went along. However, there is nothing to say this wasn't Rian's intention and that he told JJ this. "Btw, I tried to make it appear Snoke might actually not be dead." JJ of course can do what he wants with that information assuming it is true.
Except Rian has, in interviews, said that Snoke, to him, is dead, but JJ will have the freedom to change that should he so desire.  That is the freedom Rian was given (to mess with what JJ set up in 7), and that is what he expects Disney to give JJ (to mess up what Rian setup).

As for Lucas' plan?  There was one.  It has been published a few times.  They even made a comic version of some of the original plan.  Lucas just threw it out the window and tried to come up with something better - and changed the plan*constantly*.  In the first draft of episode 4 as a script, Luke was old, Han was a lizard man, R2 talked, the Emporer did not use the Force, and Darth Vader was not terribly special either as a mere human general with no Force powers.  Lucas has ADD and can't stick with anything for more than a few minutes before he wants to change it.  And he does lie about what his plans were....

At the moment 4 was released, Lucas said he had a plan for 9 movies and this was the 4th.  There are a lot of interviews from that time with that comment.  Before Empire was released he commented that he'd planned three movies and had many more stories to tell - but that the real core story he wanted to tell was all going to take place in Episodes 1 to 6.  After Empire was released he said that the next movie (Revenge of the Jedi) was going to take place mostly on Chewie's Home Planet.  When Jedi was released he said there would be no prequel.  When the start of the prequel was released he - within a week - said both that there would be a three film followup following the prequel (taking place after Jedi), and that he had never had any intention of making a film after Jedi.  Hamill - around the time of the end of the prequel trilogy - said his agent had been contacted about his availability for a possible episode 7 (per a 2004 interview).  Lucas' era was whatever whim was in force whenever the filming started.





Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on December 29, 2017, 02:00:55 PM
...
There. Is. No. Plan. If Snoke is alive in the next movie it will be because JJ wants him alive, not because Rian Johnson planned it that way.

There never was. Lucas used to claim he had a big plan but he was making it up as he went along. However, there is nothing to say this wasn't Rian's intention and that he told JJ this. "Btw, I tried to make it appear Snoke might actually not be dead." JJ of course can do what he wants with that information assuming it is true.
Except Rian has, in interviews, said that Snoke, to him, is dead, but JJ will have the freedom to change that should he so desire.  That is the freedom Rian was given (to mess with what JJ set up in 7), and that is what he expects Disney to give JJ (to mess up what Rian setup).

As for Lucas' plan?  There was one.  It has been published a few times.  They even made a comic version of some of the original plan.  Lucas just threw it out the window and tried to come up with something better - and changed the plan*constantly*.  In the first draft of episode 4 as a script, Luke was old, Han was a lizard man, R2 talked, the Emporer did not use the Force, and Darth Vader was not terribly special either as a mere human general with no Force powers.  Lucas has ADD and can't stick with anything for more than a few minutes before he wants to change it.  And he does lie about what his plans were....

At the moment 4 was released, Lucas said he had a plan for 9 movies and this was the 4th.  There are a lot of interviews from that time with that comment.  Before Empire was released he commented that he'd planned three movies and had many more stories to tell - but that the real core story he wanted to tell was all going to take place in Episodes 1 to 6.  After Empire was released he said that the next movie (Revenge of the Jedi) was going to take place mostly on Chewie's Home Planet.  When Jedi was released he said there would be no prequel.  When the start of the prequel was released he - within a week - said both that there would be a three film followup following the prequel (taking place after Jedi), and that he had never had any intention of making a film after Jedi.  Hamill - around the time of the end of the prequel trilogy - said his agent had been contacted about his availability for a possible episode 7 (per a 2004 interview).  Lucas' era was whatever whim was in force whenever the filming started.





I forgot about Rian's comment. As for the rest of your post, you took a couple of paragraphs to say what I said in one sentence. But I suppose not everyone knew all that detail.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Rendakor on December 30, 2017, 09:47:06 AM
Saw this last night, enjoyed it a lot. Wish we'd seen a bit more on Snoke, didn't like the Casino scene nor Rose crash-saving Finn. Everything else was good.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on December 30, 2017, 11:39:08 AM
Saw this last night, enjoyed it a lot. Wish we'd seen a bit more on Snoke, didn't like the Casino scene nor Rose crash-saving Finn. Everything else was good.

You just summarized 13 pages of this thread.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on December 30, 2017, 01:00:10 PM
Except that for some people, those three things = the movie sucked.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on December 30, 2017, 01:08:00 PM
Yeah, but they are wrong and dumb.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: IainC on December 30, 2017, 01:42:09 PM
Except that for some people, those three things = the movie sucked.


Who is saying it sucked in this thread? Most of the people who have seen it and who have been posting ITT enjoyed it to various extents, just with a bunch of caveats.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on December 30, 2017, 02:07:36 PM
As I've said, I enjoyed it while watching it despite multiple story decisions taking me completely out of the immersion, but further analysis has weakened it further. I'm still not of the mind that "THIS SUCKS AND IS THE GREATEST INJUSTICE TO THE FRANCHISE OF ALL TIME" like somehow the prequels don't exist.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: grebo on December 30, 2017, 02:45:33 PM
Saw it last night.  Almost walked out multiple times.  Wow what a horrifyingly bad pile of shit this movie is.  JJ Abrams is the worlds biggest asshole.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Phildo on December 30, 2017, 03:08:40 PM
There it is!


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Meester on December 30, 2017, 03:17:09 PM
JJ Abrams is the worlds biggest asshole.

Why? He didn't direct it.

And I thought it was rather mediocre, 5/10 for me.

Doesn't live up to the hype [if anything does anymore], is good for the generic sci-fi fan I suppose but for people who know the Star Wars Universe, its a fairly damp squib and immersion breaking.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ceryse on December 30, 2017, 05:05:22 PM
The movie sucked.

To be fair the best Star Wars movie in the entire franchise registered at a solid "meh" to me (one of the original trilogy, I forget which), so I'm clearly just not the target for the movies. Star Wars is probably the most over-hyped franchise in the history of franchises.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on December 31, 2017, 04:00:05 AM
Except that for some people, those three things = the movie sucked.


Who is saying it sucked in this thread? Most of the people who have seen it and who have been posting ITT enjoyed it to various extents, just with a bunch of caveats.

I say it sucks. People need to stop holding up the prequels when people criticize this shit. They were bad movies get over it. Its the same shit you'd hear from The Amazing Spider-man fans before Amazing Spiderman 2 came out. "Come on man, its better than spider-man 3". Ok... but this is still shit and an insult to spider-man fans and no good can come from Sony making more of these except for more bad spider-man movies. Same shit different IP.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ironwood on December 31, 2017, 08:05:00 AM
So, there was a movie I just watched.

Yes, it was definitely a movie. 

I watched it.

....

Time for a cuppa and then never to think on it again because I'll have forgotten it.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: schild on December 31, 2017, 10:54:46 AM
It is a TINY leap from saying one star wars movie sucked to saying they all sucked. They all suffer the exact same problems: bland, poorly written, flat characters, horrific dialogue, TERRIBLE pacing, inconsistent quality from scene to scene (not even movie to movie, that's a fucking rollercoaster) - and perhaps, most importantly of all - an inability to fucking keep to the goddamn story.

There are no rose-colored glasses more rosy than the ones used by people in their feelings for Star Wars. I don't even know how people watch the original 3 anymore. They're paced like a 1950s movie and at that point you may as well watch fucking Rashomon or Hidden Fortress because that's all it fucking is and at least they're paced better (and made a whole hell of a lot better to boot). Or don't watch either because better examples of both subgenres have been made 50 times over.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on January 01, 2018, 04:47:26 AM
We get it, you vape.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Mosesandstick on January 02, 2018, 01:56:45 PM
Watched this on New Year's in 2D Imax. I enjoyed it, but my main thought at the end of the movie was "what the fuck did I just watch?". Definitely a better movie than TFA. I'm with the people who have been criticising it.

My main views:
- Movie meandered and pacing was inconsistent
- Loved that he was willing to take on the nature of the force (I'm a massive KOTOR 2 fan), but it could've been executed better
- I enjoyed the tropes that were subverted
- Still plenty of hamfisted moments and McGuffins


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Raguel on January 02, 2018, 03:53:13 PM
I really loved the movie. There are problems with it but none I felt were serious enough for me to not enjoy it.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 02, 2018, 06:26:40 PM
 :thumbs_up:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Hoax on January 04, 2018, 07:46:49 AM
I haven't read pages 6-14 yet but I saw this finally last night because it is doing really really well and I couldn't get imax 3d tickets where I wanted them when I wanted them until this week which is a first for any movie.

Was this good? Nope.

Was this better than TFA? Obviously.

Was this better than Phantom Menace? Its so close anyone gushing over this should be ashamed of themselves.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on January 04, 2018, 10:16:15 AM
To be fair, in this movie especially, both sides really are monumentally dumb.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: NowhereMan on January 04, 2018, 11:02:57 AM
There are obvious ways that they could have explained why no-one ever does that, in fairness though they would likely have been Checkov's gun style conversations earlier or painfully unnecessary dialogue when she was gearing up to do it. Something, something equal chances of a galaxy ending explosion or it's 50/50 the collided object takes damage but the ship going into hyperdrive is annihilated, etc. None of the problems with it are technical but it does introduce an obvious tactic that's never been tried before without much reason as to why it's not been done before.

It did look really badass though, I wish they'd been able to think of some other way of accomplishing that.

I think the whole plot with Kylo Ren is a quest for self-fulfillment. He turned on Skywalker because he felt he'd failed and been rejected. He felt Luke saw him as a weak and he was determined to prove that his 'falling' to the Dark Side was a strength. At the same time he hates the evil things he does and obviously isn't happy so he's no more fulfilled or at peace as Snoke's apprentice. It's kind of the typical anime hero journey just instead of finding it hard to do the right thing or feeling guilty about not saving someone or being scared, he feels guilty because feels bad that he murdered his dad or because he found it hard to be super evil. It's an interesting concept in a villain but
1) they really needed to do a better job setting him as actually menacing by the end of this and
2) Whiny anime heroes suck, why would you make more?

I can imagine an ending here where Kylo Ren has rejected Vader's legacy, taken control of the First Order and actually struck a blow against the Resistance that would echo ESB while being subtly different. Instead I think they went for an upbeat ending that required Kylo Ren continue to look like a chump and the FO continue to look like sadistic idiots. Having a small core leave and the majority of soldiers remain to fight a rearguard, and they get taken apart by Ren might have worked to actually make it seem like he'd had some kind of character growth. Instead the Resistance gets out of their valiant last stand without further sacrifices.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 04, 2018, 11:38:14 AM
So, in WWII naval combat, you could do some serious damage if you'd driven a battleship into another battleship. Even accidental collisions caused (and still cause) serious damage. A battleship normally takes a full crew, but you'd only need a handful of sailors to execute a collision. Why wasn't that a frequently employed tactic, then?

a) Because you lose a battleship that way! Sacrificing one asset to take out an equivalent asset is normally not a great tactic unless you either have tons and tons of such assets to spare compared to your enemies (and if so, why waste one that way? Just pound them conventionally) or unless the enemy ship is the absolutely pivotal ship--say, the entire enemy command and political leadership is on board, which is an extraordinarily rare situation in a military confrontation. A force that has very few such assets absolutely cannot afford to be doing this kind of thing regularly.
b) Because it takes a while to set up for ramming and if the tactic were normal, the enemy would respond by concentrating fire on the ramming vessel and/or evading it. It only works once, as a surprise, or because the enemy must concentrate fire on something else.
c) Because in general, militaries don't consciously use suicidal tactics. Sure, commanders send forces into situations where they expect high casualties or are planning to win through attrition, which is a kind of unacknowledged use of suicidal tactics, but it's a different matter to consciously ask soldiers and leaders to die carrying out a suicide attack. Militaries that not conscript forces especially don't do this sort of thing very often. Individuals may choose to give their lives for others in desperate situations, but that's very different than methodically planning that as an approach.

I have no problem following this reasoning to understand why the Rebellion/Resistance/Republic simply don't do this as a matter of course on a regular basis, even at the level of building large uncrewed capital vessels as hyperdrive kamikazes. They don't have the assets to do it--they're still tooling around in shit they had sixty years ago, more or less. It's antithetical to their values. I think you could ask why the Empire/First Order doesn't do it more often, because they seem to have Star Destroyers to spare. I think there it's the pro-military fascism that both have exhibited--it's one thing to lose a ship to enemy fire and another to suicide it on purpose just to blow up the other guys.

Now you might wonder why not do it with small unmanned vessels--something a bit closer to what has happened in human warfare more often--and the answer is that the Rebellion/Resistance does just that. We've seen that regularly--pilots of small fighters that are going to die often try to crash into a weapon or command center on a large craft to cause damage. And it works fairly often, enough that you have to wonder why the Empire/First Order doesn't build a new generation of smaller, faster capital ships built around defending from wave attacks by small fighters. There I really think you have to look at what we know about this universe--and one thing we know is that it is technologically stagnant, for whatever reasons. Folks just don't think about fundamentally new technologies. Even planet killers seem like an old idea in the SW universe. Maybe that seems stupid to you, but in an odd way I think it's an interesting proposition--a galactic civilization that has reached a kind of peak technology and isn't trying to fiddle with it much. I also think there's likely to be some kind of galactic consensus about purely droid-crewed vessels following the Clone Wars, though we haven't really seen the sort of deeply anti-droid attitude you think that would imply. (The First Order seems to be allowing droids a bit more autonomy, following on the example of the Resistance/Rebellion, who've clearly always given droids a lot of room to do as they will.)

I think if you're looking for dumb things here, it's:

Why bring your Supreme Leader into a potentially dangerous military situation? (Answer: I guess because he's an arrogant, entitled doofus and he said to bring him.)
Why not recognize what Holdo was doing with the cruiser? (Answer: they do realize it, only too late, because they've got tunnel vision and are focusing on killing the transports.)
Why not peel off the other capital ships to distract the pursuers earlier? (Answer: yeah, this part is genuinely stupid, they should have split the fleet five ways the moment they realized what was going on.)


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: IainC on January 04, 2018, 12:27:38 PM
All of those concerns mostly go away if you substitute 'big space rock with a hyperdrive and some basic manoeuvring engines' for 'sacrificial battleship'. We don't ram battleships into enemy battleships, but we do fly things into them deliberately. They look like this

(https://i.imgur.com/8Ec4vgs.jpg)

Even in pre-20th century naval warfare, the concept of fireships was a well-tried and rightly feared tactic that was mostly limited by the logistics of getting derelict hulls to where the enemy fleet was - which isn't an issue with science fiction tech.

If the enemy wants to concentrate fire on your wave of weaponised spacerocks, then that's a win too because it means they aren't firing at your crewed ships that are designed to engage multiple times instead of only once.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on January 04, 2018, 02:41:59 PM
There is an entire shot in the movie dedicated to explaining why this is an uncommon tactic. Jesus Christ.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on January 04, 2018, 03:58:11 PM
There is an entire shot in the movie dedicated to explaining why this is an uncommon tactic. Jesus Christ.
Elaborate - what did I miss?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on January 04, 2018, 05:43:00 PM
There is an entire shot in the movie dedicated to explaining why this is an uncommon tactic. Jesus Christ.
Elaborate - what did I miss?

“Sir the cruiser is preparing to jump to light speed”

“Hux: Ignore it, it’s a diversion, it’s empty”

IE had they been considering it they would have blown it away before it could have jumped


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on January 04, 2018, 07:13:47 PM
See, I just interpreted that as more shitty writing.  The ship is going to escape, ignore it because its empty.  Makes sense, lets  not even consider the possibility of being rammed, because thats impossible..  Then Hux was just as surprised as we were when they rammed him at light speed.  "WTF, this is Star Wars, you cant do that!"


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on January 04, 2018, 07:47:23 PM
It gives you precisely enough information to determine why it worked and why it’s not common. You really don’t need more. And wanting more makes me wonder if you had ever seen another Star Wars movie.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 04, 2018, 08:02:21 PM
So, fire ships were only something you could use in highly specific circumstances, first off. You had to have hulks or decomissioned ships to spare, you had to be in a harbor action, not in the open seas, etc.

And ramming is something some naval combat used--but a ramming vessel was a specific thing. You didn't do it with most combat vessels, and it was an expensive tactic to be used sparingly in any event. At some speeds or wind conditions, it's not possible in either sail or rowing warfare.

This is all pretty easily solved if they say, "only a ship of a specific tonnage (that is otherwise way more valuable) could do this, only if it's not fired upon, only if the target vessel is not paying attention to the risk, and we're not the types to commit suicide normally". But there's something kind of stupid about insisting that you hate the scene, which is visually impressive and kind of amazing, unless someone infodumps all of that for you. I continue to insist that if you're that kind of audience, you should be asking why the fuck the Empire builds giant Star Destroyers anyway or why Stormtroopers wear armor in the first place, etc. etc.--very little about the SW universe makes sense in that way.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on January 04, 2018, 08:05:00 PM
Ok, I've determined that apparently nobody is actually reading any posts in this thread.

I did not ask for more of an explanation (which is good, because despite what you say, that scene gave zero information).  Nobody has.  Is it really hard not to understand that doing something that breaks all scientific continuity of all the previous content is annoying?  It was only a minor thing to me overall in the movie, but still highlighted how little they seem to care about the material.  It was just as content breaking and lazy a way out of a conflict as the magic teleporter in Star Trek, which also broke most of the established rules of the IP.  

Physics don't belong in Star Wars or everything falls apart.  Have you watched any previous Star Wars films?  Because they all revolve around physics not actually being a thing in the universe.

This shit is literally midichlorians.  Nobody liked midichlorians either.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on January 04, 2018, 09:14:58 PM
It does not break any “scientific continuity” in the series.

Such an attack is expensive and prone to failure.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on January 04, 2018, 09:15:47 PM
Of all the things to be upset about in that movie, the very impressive looking scene of the lightspeed suicide run is the least of them. I was fine with it. I thought it was dumb that the younger leader did it instead of Leia since Leia looked half dead anyway and probably was considering her trip to Mary Poppins land.

They made a lot of odd story choices that either didn't make sense, didn't make sense in the Star Wars movie or were poorly executed or explained.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 04, 2018, 09:35:42 PM
Ok, I've determined that apparently nobody is actually reading any posts in this thread.

I did not ask for more of an explanation (which is good, because despite what you say, that scene gave zero information).  Nobody has.  Is it really hard not to understand that doing something that breaks all scientific continuity of all the previous content is annoying?  It was only a minor thing to me overall in the movie, but still highlighted how little they seem to care about the material.  It was just as content breaking and lazy a way out of a conflict as the magic teleporter in Star Trek, which also broke most of the established rules of the IP.  

Physics don't belong in Star Wars or everything falls apart.  Have you watched any previous Star Wars films?  Because they all revolve around physics not actually being a thing in the universe.

This shit is literally midichlorians.  Nobody liked midichlorians either.

We're reading. We disagree. Arguing that you have unimpeachable evidence on imaginary Star Wars physics based on seven previous movies and some animated show stuff and don't understand how anybody could possibly think otherwise is just kind of weird, that's all. It's pretty clear that many people who have seen as much Star Wars as you liked the movie and the scene and had no difficulty understanding its in-canon plausibility. This is not a thing that is going to be resolved on "I care about the material, you other people don't". It just isn't. This is pretty much "in matters of taste, there is no dispute". I am interested in how strongly people feel about this film both yay and nay. I'm not entirely sure what that means. I do not argue that people who feel differently than me don't know Star Wars like I know Star Wars or whatever. The different reactions are coming from somewhere deeper in how people watch movies--and how they watch Star Wars.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Hoax on January 04, 2018, 09:41:04 PM
Yuck on second thought I'm not going to read 8 pages of people pretending this movie wasn't mediocre at best.

Cmon if that is a valid attempt at suicide why wouldn't the medical cruiser or the other ship have done that before they ran out of fuel? are you kidding me? not only that but I believe from the shot her suicide hyperdrive thing not only ripped the omega ship in half but also took out 2-3 star destroyers? are you serious?

the defense of that is so bad. its soooooo flimsy.

If she had the option to do that why wait so fucking long to execute that plan?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on January 04, 2018, 09:57:50 PM
It made more sense than Rose saving Finn.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on January 04, 2018, 10:12:59 PM
Also, should have been Admiral Akbar instead of Admiral no name red shirt.

Then when Hux realizes whats about to happen, he could yell out "Its a trap!"


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: IainC on January 05, 2018, 03:28:47 AM
It gives you precisely enough information to determine why it worked and why it’s not common. You really don’t need more. And wanting more makes me wonder if you had ever seen another Star Wars movie.
I interpreted that scene exactly the same way that Teleku did. Trying to pretend that it explains why hyperspace bullets aren't a thing is reaching hard.

They thought the (empty) 'escaping' cruiser was a diversion to draw them away from the (not empty) escaping transports. Which is why they didn't divert any firepower to destroy it.

Given that it's clearly a massively effective tactic, you have to wonder why it doesn't happen more often. And no, again not with expensive combat ships, but with disposable one-use vessels (like our friend Mr Tomahawk or our in-universe analogue, Mr Spacerock with rudimentary engines strapped to it).

There's a point where the audience can see the effectiveness of a tactic and wonder why it isn't either used or defended against. For example, it's clear that swarms of small, heavily armed fighters can ruin the day of a much larger capital ship. The in-universe answer to this is to have defending swarms of fighters. That makes sense. From a tactical perspective, the best solution would be to have something like a perimeter of destroyer-class ships around any valuable fleet, but the space battles are cool and iconic so it's fine that they go back to X-Wing vs TIE dogfights. The hyperspace bullet as a thing that no-one has ever tried before makes no sense. Holdo thought it would do *something* even if she didn't appreciate just how devastating it was. There are plenty of prior movie scenes where collisions between ships manoeuvring *slowly* are catastrophic, you don't need to be a rocket surgeon to realise that adding more v in the p=mv equation is going to have a linearly increasing effect.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: NowhereMan on January 05, 2018, 04:46:18 AM
It's annoying to me because, while it was a very cool scene, it seems possible to explain why it isn't a common tactic (though not easy to do it well). Instead we're left arguing plausible reasons on the internet. It isn't anywhere the worst bit of the movie, it was fucking cool, but it also feel symptomatic of the desire to put a cool scene in without feeling a need for it to fit with Star Wars or even make a lot of sense by itself. I also felt like they missed a few points because they were trying so hard to escape the TFA issue of following all the movie beats from ANH. The 'happy' ending that they got robbed Ren and the FO of any real menace. Had they ended with a more substantial victory rather than getting punked by a Jedi Ghost we'd be left with more of a feeling that losing Snoke hasn't left them bumbling idiots. As it is Ren finishes up just as whiny as he did at the start. Him successfully leading an attack and butchering a fortress full of Resistance fighters would have left him seeming like someone who had taken a definite turn.

Finn and Rose: I read that scene as him about to just get vaporised by a laser beam for no reason and she crashed into him, which made sense. How she managed to get ahead of him and swing in from the side when he was near the front and going full speed in a  straight line is another question.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: IainC on January 05, 2018, 07:23:15 AM
How she managed to get ahead of him and swing in from the side when he was near the front and going full speed in a  straight line is another question.

That bit didn't bother me too much. They talk about how janky all the speeders are when they get into them, I just assumed that some were faster than others because their engines were in better condition or they didn't have the same stability problems or something.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ironwood on January 05, 2018, 08:16:44 AM
Also, the rest of them pulled up while he had the drag from his ski.

Also, the movie was just pus riddled shit and I'm too old for Star Wars now.

Far too fucking old.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on January 05, 2018, 08:31:48 AM
Finn and Rose: I read that scene as him about to just get vaporised by a laser beam for no reason and she crashed into him, which made sense. How she managed to get ahead of him and swing in from the side when he was near the front and going full speed in a  straight line is another question.

Its a bit more that. He *might* have taken down the laser and been a big damn dead hero, but over the whole movie Rose is saying that if he doesn't work as part of a team instead of running away or pointlessly sacrificing himself (because of lack of faith in the group in either case), they are all going to die, there will be nothing left to save, and everything will be shit.

She intervened to get both of them light side points.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on January 05, 2018, 09:10:02 AM
I wonder how many classic scifi shows would hold up under the lens of today's scrutiny.  Not just here but the entire internet seems to regard everything with the sharp knees argument these days.  Now that everyone has a platform criticisms have gone from the "eh, I thought it was boring" to your friends, into a 19 paragraph dissertation on the in-world inconsistencies  vis-a-vis farting in space.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on January 05, 2018, 09:17:42 AM
vis-a-vis farting in space.

Clearly, they would all be "silent but deadly."  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on January 05, 2018, 10:07:08 AM
I wonder how many classic scifi shows would hold up under the lens of today's scrutiny.  Not just here but the entire internet seems to regard everything with the sharp knees argument these days.  Now that everyone has a platform criticisms have gone from the "eh, I thought it was boring" to your friends, into a 19 paragraph dissertation on the in-world inconsistencies  vis-a-vis farting in space.
Pretty sure you can find people arguing over classic sci-fi shows on the internet if you want, and the good ones still hold up.  Hell, going back and watching the original Alien, I'm still impressed by how much better of a movie it is then most modern sci-fi/horror.

And in comparison to now, I went back and watched Rogue One after all the craziness of this thread, to see if maybe Star Wars just isn't for me anymore.  That movie is near perfect.  It is so much better than The Last Jedi at every single level of the craft of film making its not funny.  Pacing, acting, writing, editing.....  It had its flaws, but they were minor and smoothed over by the overall quality of the movie.  It's made me dislike Jedi even more now.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: IainC on January 05, 2018, 11:30:04 AM
I love me some classic sci-fi, almost all of the properties that span more than a single movie are better made in every way than TLJ. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to claim that Prometheus is a great movie, but even the bad Alien movies manage to build on a consistent universe. Even super janky one-movie stuff like The Black Hole or Silent Running manage to be better and more consistent.

And yeah, Rogue One was on cable here over Christmas so I watched it again a few times and it's the best SW film by such a huge distance it's not even close.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: DevilsAdvocate25 on January 05, 2018, 12:16:52 PM
but still highlighted how little they seem to care about the material.

This was my feeling about this movie too. It really felt like they didn't care about the original characters or their stories, except for Leia. I felt they disrespected the character of Luke and that he was acting out of character most of the movie. I did love the story beat of his ghost ascension with the music and the suns. Most of the story beats though seemed like the director trying to be sly and *wink, wink* wasn't that cool. You didn't expect that, did you? I liked this movie less than TFA and I am not a fan of TFA.

My family agreed that we liked the character of Rose until she wrecked Finn at the end. The "I love you" scene was sweet, but would have fit better if she told him before the attempted sacrifice.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on January 05, 2018, 12:21:33 PM
but still highlighted how little they seem to care about the material.

This was my feeling about this movie too. It really felt like they didn't care about the original characters or their stories, except for Leia. I felt they disrespected the character of Luke and that he was acting out of character most of the movie. I did love the story beat of his ghost ascension with the music and the suns. Most of the story beats though seemed like the director trying to be sly and *wink, wink* wasn't that cool. You didn't expect that, did you? I liked this movie less than TFA and I am not a fan of TFA.

My family agreed that we liked the character of Rose until she wrecked Finn at the end. The "I love you" scene was sweet, but would have fit better if she told him before the attempted sacrifice.

I liked the movie but when she kissed Finn while their base was literally being blown up in the background of the shot my wife and I both laughed out loud and I'm pretty sure that wasn't the intended reaction.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on January 05, 2018, 01:16:23 PM
Fuck that shit.

When you take over a franchise, you have a duty to build upon, not coop, what came before. 

When JJ did 7, he really tried to build upon Lucas' work.  He did it to the extent that he nearly remade episode 4.  He may have done it too much.

When Rian did 8, he said, "I see what you were trying to do, but I like this better."  The 1% analogy does not fit with episodes 1 to 7.  The ramming does not fit with anything we saw in 1 to 7.  The 'Rey is nobody' doesn't match with the foreshadowing.  The 'Kylo abandons his Vader fetish' is a reversal from where he was going.  Killing Snoke without explaining who he was closes a story that was never told. 

If Episode 7 didn't exist and we started this new phase with episode 8, some of these 'sins' would be more forgivable.  But when JJ was as respectful as he was of the past (not saying he was perfect in his respect, btw - but he did a darn good job), it really stood out when Rian was going his own direction.

I'll be excited to see Rian do a trilogy that isn't so tied to the past.  I think it was just a mistake to have his talents step on the existing path.







Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: schild on January 05, 2018, 01:26:01 PM
Fuck that shit.

When you take over a franchise, you have a duty to build upon, not coop, what came before. 

That bullshit thinking has ruined more series than I can count.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 05, 2018, 02:58:10 PM
A small but great example. Alan Moore took over DC's Swamp Thing, which had mostly been an atmospheric "man trapped in the form of a monster" with horror elements thrown in, with great art by Berni Wrightson, up to that point. I could see someone loving that old comic, but the idea that Moore should just keep doing more of that only slightly different would have been a sign of being an unimaginative fan who needs to always get the same thing again and again and again forever. Moore said: you know this character? Nothing you thought about him is true. He's not at all what you think, this is now a fundamentally different kind of story. And it was fucking genius.

A universe that can only be used to tell the same story again and again and again is a flawed universe. Comics suffer from that sometimes. Genre fiction suffers from that sometimes. The desire to just have the same thing only with a few slight new additions, nothing too radical, is something that fan cultures are prone to, and it is a case of loving something so much that you hurt it.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on January 05, 2018, 03:23:59 PM
On the other hand, Swamp Thing had shitty sales before Alan Moore took over and was basically given the book because no one else would take it?

Swamp Thing pre-Moore and Star Wars post-TFA are two entirely different set of circumstances, both from the editorial standpoint and the narrative. Alan Moore and DC had nothing to lose by going whole hog, so creative freedom likely had no push back. Star Wars, however, isn't just a low-sales also-ran, it's a giant, money-making, megalithic brand. Writers of these kinds of properties not only have to think creatively, but they also have to considered shepherds of a brand. As such, yes, there is going to be a variable amount of "don't rock the boat" thinking to the people like the editors/producers who greenlight stories. As a writer, I think you do have to at least RESPECT the material and respect the brand. That doesn't mean you can't make some risky calls - I think Rogue One and it's ending was an extremely risky call for a Star Wars branded movie, whereas it wouldn't be all that risky for a movie with no brand/legacy fandom to worry about.

Hewing closely to a brand isn't going to be as creative or as interesting as taking the Alan Moore Swamp Thing risk, just by the nature of branding. That doesn't mean it can't be good.

I don't think Rian Johnson hewed as closely to the Star Wars brand as he should have for a tent pole movie. His own trilogy? I expect that one to go even farther afield and it's probably best that he does. I imagine that's part of the reason he's not doing Star Wars IX.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on January 05, 2018, 03:55:08 PM
All of this is why doing "episode whatever" is obviously harder than "a star wars story". Neither TFA nor tLJ did an especially good job of extending the grand narrative. But for my money tLJ was at least a good film in its own right, wheras TFA was just brainless fun.

R1 OTOH was great because it said 'hey, you know the overall story this sits in, we can zoom in on some dudes and make a film about them and just assume knowledge of the universe'.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 05, 2018, 04:17:20 PM
I guess when someone says, "He didn't hew as closely to the brand", that's a recommendation for me. And I love Star Wars. That's what I want from people who are doing "tent pole" work--as long as they wander away in a fashion that's creatively interesting (say, unlike JJ Abrams with Star Trek, where wandering away meant a dinner-theater re-enactment of Wrath of Khan).



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on January 05, 2018, 04:26:33 PM
My problem is that TLJ wasn't creatively interesting, it was just odd for the sake of being odd.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Hoax on January 05, 2018, 05:23:20 PM
I wonder how many classic scifi shows would hold up under the lens of today's scrutiny.  Not just here but the entire internet seems to regard everything with the sharp knees argument these days.  Now that everyone has a platform criticisms have gone from the "eh, I thought it was boring" to your friends, into a 19 paragraph dissertation on the in-world inconsistencies  vis-a-vis farting in space.

I've literally gone to bat for Ghost in the Shell (I've rewwatched it out of theaters still think its very cool), Pacific Rim (stupid sure but glorious monsters vs robots and Edris Elba), Bright being way fucking better than the online buzz around it seemed to suggest etc.

I'm pretty sure I'm not that guy with most things.

I 100% agree with Ironwood on feeling like I'm just too old for this shit. TFA was just bad, a complete and utter shit movie, like NuTrek Khan without any acting talent to make you want to look past what a fucking hack JJ is. The Last Jedi was (less) bad but also just felt like it wasn't made for me at all. I can only assume that small idiot kids might not notice how retarded the entire opening is?

Its a dreadnought with no fighter screen (why ever?) that gets all its anti-bomber stuff taken out by a single fighter while the two captains say really fucking dumb shit! Then the bombers go into the teeth of the now deployed fighter screen so they can drop their bombs down onto things IN SPACE. The fuck are we "dropping" bombs in space exactly? I thought we already had star wars bombers in A or B or Y wings? One of them was supposed to be the heavier fighter-bomber thing right? They should have fucking torpedoes and the reason you take out those static heavy cannons is those deal with torps etc etc.

I mean there are like 2 very successful star wars based TT miniature wargames right now if not more. A movie directed at me and my kind would have clearly pandered by using real military tech on both sides and using them in a way that makes any sense at all.

I mean good god that stalling for time communication call thing btwn Poe and Hux? I had forgotten that until just now when I was trying to put into words how annoying I found the stupidity of the bad guys. Was that a real scene? From a not youtube fan movie?

Fuck Star Wars. This is 2 movies I regretted going to in a row plus 2 movies I didn't bother to watch in theater that I could barely sit through on tv. Its not for me.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on January 05, 2018, 06:37:42 PM
TFA is good until they leave Jakku.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on January 05, 2018, 06:41:39 PM
On bombs, I have no idea why people keep having an issue with that shit.

Every ship in SW can demonstrably generate artificial gravity, including the bomber.

If you can do gravity, shooting bombs at things using that gravity makes sense to me.

/shrug


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on January 05, 2018, 06:47:54 PM
On bombs, I have no idea why people keep having an issue with that shit.

Every ship in SW can demonstrably generate artificial gravity, including the bomber.

If you can do gravity, shooting bombs at things using that gravity makes sense to me.

/shrug

They’re looking for a reason to not like the new movie so they can be hipsters about how everything was better when they were 12/before it was popular.

They’re doing the same thing with the light speed attack. If the cruiser were seen as a threat it would have been obliterated. Same with any ship or asteroid designed for the task.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Hoax on January 05, 2018, 07:39:30 PM
TFA is good until they leave Jakku.


Everything until they steal the MF was great. Agreed. I posted that in the thread I'm fairly certain.

Your next post is utter bullshit and Goum is... whatever. I literally addressed that I'm not the person who cares about hipster points or liking something that can have holes poked in it. This movie wasn't good and was full of holes.

My #1 beef is not the holes its that the cool parts were few and far between and not really cool at all.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on January 05, 2018, 09:43:07 PM
Movie was good for people who like it. As a for instance, people here said I should check out Ghost in the Shell. (Not the Scarlett movie) What little I could sit thru was utter garbage. Obviously not for me. But enough folk appear to, that it must appeal to a section of the populace. It appears to have the shallow asshole contingent anyway.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on January 05, 2018, 10:34:17 PM
On bombs, I have no idea why people keep having an issue with that shit.

Every ship in SW can demonstrably generate artificial gravity, including the bomber.

If you can do gravity, shooting bombs at things using that gravity makes sense to me.

/shrug

They’re looking for a reason to not like the new movie so they can be hipsters about how everything was better when they were 12/before it was popular.

They’re doing the same thing with the light speed attack. If the cruiser were seen as a threat it would have been obliterated. Same with any ship or asteroid designed for the task.

The bomb thing is apparently explained in the visual dictionary. Here's an article talking about how the bombs had messages written on them that also links to a twitter post with a screen shot of the bomb stuff. Basically, they're launched by magnets, and drawn magnetically to their targets. The bombs to me fit Star Wars. I mean Lucas famously used WW2 dog fight footage in his early cuts and ILM just copied it when they did the FX.

Link: Here (http://comicbook.com/starwars/2017/12/28/star-wars-the-last-jedi-bombs-messages/)

As for the suicide attack this same question can be asked of any franchise that uses FTL. Borg cube threatening Earth? Have a Federation starship warp into it. Etc.

The way I viewed it as a nerd is that hyperdrive takes you to a sort of shadow of the galaxy. If memory serves your ship goes to lightspeed then goes to this "hyperdrive dimension". Sort of like the Delorean going to 88 mph to time travel.

When you watch a ship go to hyperspace it massively accelerates then does the spinning star thing and disappears. I think what basically happened is she was close enough that her ship hit theirs while doing the lightspeed acceleration.

As for why it's not a common tactic, for the same reason it's not usually a common tactic in sci-fi. It's usually not an exciting way to depict space battles. If this was "real"? Yeah. It'd be a common tactic. Space terrorists would use it all the time.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on January 05, 2018, 11:58:50 PM
They’re looking for a reason to not like the new movie so they can be hipsters about how everything was better when they were 12/before it was popular.

Stop it. That's not what anybody in this thread is doing and you fucking know it. I'd think most of us have been around each other long enough to know that we're not really of the beret-wearing crowd trying to impress anyone.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 06, 2018, 10:49:33 AM
Any time I come across people who often agree on things feeling radically different and borderline angry about it, I think that is by definition something interesting and meaningful. I also think it is precisely when recognize that's what's going on, it means that if it's about a work of culture, that work of culture did something worth doing. A film or book or painting that deeply polarizes people who see it, where there are strong feelings on both sides, did something interesting. I say that even when it's something I profoundly dislike. I would much rather somebody make something that produces interestingly strong divergences in reaction than something that produces mild and easily forgotten approval from most people.

I mean, everything ever made has someone who loves it. I met a person who thought "The Room" actually was a pretty good movie. And even the most beloved things have a few people who really hate them, usually for idiosyncratic or circumstantial reasons. But when something produces a nearly even split, and the reactions on both sides are strong, that's meaningful and important and worth some continued conversation. Often what happens over time is that each side starts to see what the other did, and ten or twenty years later, a new consensus emerges. I don't know if that's going to happen here--it might or might not. But it is worth everyone's time to be curious about what other people saw when they saw this movie.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: schild on January 06, 2018, 11:05:11 AM
hm

I also think it is precisely when recognize that's what's going on, it means that if it's about a work of culture, that work of culture did something worth doing.

i am not sure this applies to franchises that literally exist to milk money from children and fanboys - and i'm pretty loose with my definitions of art


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 06, 2018, 12:44:35 PM
I think it works even with stuff that's pretty much just commercial genre material. If a Superman comic story makes half the existing fans furious and the other half enthusiastic, that's interesting, even if Superman is in some sense an uninteresting character in a relatively unsophisticated medium. Strong evenly divided reactions from existing audiences are always an interesting thing.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: BobtheSomething on January 09, 2018, 12:57:39 AM
On bombs, I have no idea why people keep having an issue with that shit.

Every ship in SW can demonstrably generate artificial gravity, including the bomber.

If you can do gravity, shooting bombs at things using that gravity makes sense to me.

/shrug

But they already established that bombing runs involve...shooting proton torpedoes from fast agile craft.  Even the Falcon shoots missiles out the front.  Even in this same fucking movie, Kylo Ren uses missiles to "bomb" the Raddus' hanger and his bros "bombed" the bridge from fucking TIE fighters.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 09, 2018, 10:43:12 AM
Yeah, it really was kind of dumb. All they had to do is say, "Here's a specialized attack craft that does something that requires clearing the deck guns". Say, lands on a Star Destroyer hull and detaches part of its hull that's clamped magnetically and then blows inward into the SD hull. And then you can still have a scene where only one gets through and the hull won't detach properly due to damage, so the pilot blows the ship while she's still in it.

There's some script fixes possible for sure. But for me the core characterizations are so good and some of the adjustments/reconfiguring of the universe equally so.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on January 09, 2018, 10:45:46 AM
I think any talk of the tactics and strategies of Star Wars space battles are a waste of time. Since the very first movie in the series, every single choice in battle choreography has been made with the only limitation being "the rule of cool." Does it look cool? Do it. The most thought that has been given to tactics is "make it like WWII movies in space." Full stop.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Brolan on January 09, 2018, 11:49:09 AM
Undoubtedly the choice to use a new bomber class in the movie was so they had a new toy to sell at Christmas.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 09, 2018, 01:34:31 PM
Second-guessing the tech in ANY space opera is a mistake. I thnk the only one modestly attentive to that is the Expanse series. I can't think of a single other filmed space opera that holds up under close examination. Babylon 5 was a bit more thoughtful about setting out the rules than is common, I suppose, and the BSG reboot tried pretty hard early on to do the same. Star Wars is at the opposite end of the scale--the only way you can hold up the worldbuilding at all is to accept that the denizens of the SW universe are exceptionally unimaginative about the possible uses of their existing technology and disinclined to pursue technological innovation. Star Trek is the opposite--everybody's doing new stuff all the time and then forgetting about it right away.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on January 09, 2018, 02:11:01 PM
Look at the difference in damage between the torpedoes and the bombs. The torps damaged the rebel cruiser, the bombs utterly destroyed a battleship. Slight difference in force projection there. (Ha.)


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on January 09, 2018, 02:18:47 PM
What you did there... see it I did.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on January 09, 2018, 02:52:58 PM
Undoubtedly the choice to use a new bomber class in the movie was so they had a new toy to sell at Christmas.

One of my biggest disappointments about the film was the shortage of new toy spaceships for Disney to sell me.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on January 09, 2018, 03:08:16 PM
The basic problem problem with the bomber scene was that it didn't make sense visually. Either you turned your brain off when Poe showed up and solo'ed a destroyer's worth of static defenses, or you didn't. You see even if bombers in space make sense, even if we can scientifically justify using gravity/magnetism to drop a load of explosives the size of pineapples... why on gods green earth are they slow. What tactical advantage is there to them being slow. Why is there a physical human in charge of the release of said bombs. This is not even WW2 in space. This isn't even WW1 in space. This is fan-girls writing a romance novel about her abusive boyfriend learning to love again in space.
 


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on January 09, 2018, 03:39:04 PM
I wasn't a fan of Poe vs the dreadnought, in fact at that point I was really worried that I'd driven into central London at midnight to watch a shit film. Apart from soloing the turbolasers or whatever, Poe's comedy crank call stylings were... not funny.

But once the bombers arrived it was fine.

And as I mentioned a few pages back Dreadnought Captain Guy had the only amusing lines in the film. So that was nice.

Melee stormtroopers are a lot sillier than bombers.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on January 09, 2018, 05:43:31 PM
How are ships slowly moving through space while not having enough armor or shielding to not get fucked by fighters even remotely ok. How is someone needing to manually press the button to release bombs from a cargo bay OK. Well jimmy fuck a baby with a dried bagel that was stupid.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Samwise on January 09, 2018, 05:48:44 PM
If you want to go there, how are manned fighters remotely okay?   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 09, 2018, 07:36:53 PM
I have to admit I turned my brain off a little during the bombing-the-Star-Destroyer scene because the Star Destroyer commander looked uncannily like my worst graduate professor, so I was kind of enjoying watching him get blown to smithereens.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on January 09, 2018, 08:30:44 PM
If you want to go there, how are manned fighters remotely okay?   :awesome_for_real:
Clone Wars.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on January 09, 2018, 11:33:58 PM
Yeah, why aren't they using one jump capable ship to verify enemy coordinates and jumping in clusters of bombs on the position. Boom. I'm a general.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Surlyboi on January 10, 2018, 12:39:35 AM
A bombad general...


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: NowhereMan on January 10, 2018, 04:51:27 AM
The bombers as a concept was ok going with the SW rule of cool thing and the WWII heritage. Having to have someone onboard press a physical button (on a remote handset?) to drop the bombs was a bit too far but I can live with that.

The slow speed chase was what I couldn't get over. The fact that ships were able to jump in and out of it just felt like I was watching fucking Speed 3 from Father Ted. I get what they wanted to achieve in that scene but to show but that undermining of the SW trope (lone sacrificial team of heroes pulls off a complicated, high stakes plan to save the day) could have been done far better. That's what I mean when I say lazy writing, the writer/director was looking to undermine some SW tropes and did so in a way that was somewhat ham fisted (fair enough, most viewers would miss it if it had been subtle) and without much care for consistency with the universe. I think they also caught themselves a little bit between wanting to undermine SW tropes and avoid repeating all the beats of ESB so sacrificed having actual bad things happen at the end.

Unlike Empire this ends on a positive note with the FO very much not looking totally in control and on the brink of final victory. Even though their position is somehow way stronger than the Empire was in ESB (the Resistance is much, much smaller than the Rebels were) ending on the Resistance escaping and them getting so thoroughly clowned by holo-Luke leaves them feeling much less threatening than they could have been.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on January 10, 2018, 02:23:49 PM
The 'chase' didn't bother me much, but I couldn't help thinking that BSG is how it should have been done if this was all they could come up with themselves.

But I liked the ending more than I liked the ending of empire.

Empire has a bad ending, it just stops.

It isn't that this has a happy ending - it is that the 4 main characters plus Luke resolve what this film is about for them.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: calapine on January 10, 2018, 11:47:40 PM
Here is the kamikaze outtake in high quality:

https://i.imgur.com/lMNLmTB.mp4

Aaaaaaaaand:

(https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BN-WW580_201801_M_20180107175027.jpg)


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on January 11, 2018, 09:03:27 AM
Man, on closer inspection, that looks like a goddamn girdle.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on January 11, 2018, 10:57:27 AM
The pants do no favors but make no mistake that dude is in good shape.  Not marvel comic centerfold ripped but more of a don't fuck with this dude irl, strong.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on January 11, 2018, 10:58:54 AM
Oh I know, he's definitely much buffer than I thought. The all black suit makes him look a lot slimmer than that pic.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: IainC on January 11, 2018, 02:13:12 PM
I saw him in Silence recently. Dude's a decent actor when he gets good lines.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on January 11, 2018, 04:09:06 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v2PV52WNLY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v2PV52WNLY)

I'll just leave this here.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Raguel on January 11, 2018, 06:18:23 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1M95njhovw

The science behind that kamikaze scene. I'm glad my initial, no math included, thoughts on what should have happened is close to what Kyle got.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on January 12, 2018, 03:40:53 AM
Discounting the energy ball, I was pretty sure the debris field that would still be moving at speed would have taken out a couple of those star destroyers following on. Still a pretty cool video, thanks for that.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: BobtheSomething on January 12, 2018, 01:33:26 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v2PV52WNLY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v2PV52WNLY)

I'll just leave this here.

Nice.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on January 12, 2018, 02:22:49 PM
https://imgur.com/a/6smO9


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on January 12, 2018, 02:51:41 PM
SHOULDA DONE MORE ROCK LIFTS!


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on January 12, 2018, 03:20:39 PM
Obviously we shouldn't give any more money to this series seeing how its been bad for 60+ years.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on January 12, 2018, 05:41:40 PM
You should definitely stop letting it occupy your faculties.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on January 13, 2018, 03:40:13 AM
https://imgur.com/a/6smO9
Holy shit people are getting desperate to defend this movie from even the slightest criticism.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on January 13, 2018, 04:03:53 AM
Sure. Some of the criticisms are valid. Some are nitpicky bullshit. Some people genuinely didn't like, and some are looking to hate on it just because. I thought that shit was pretty funny.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 13, 2018, 07:36:06 AM
I think that skewers pretty well the incessant demands for more exposition, more background, more consistency in internal world-building. I also think it captures a difference between fans in 1982 and fans in 2017.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Mosesandstick on January 13, 2018, 10:22:35 AM
I found both the video and the pictures funny.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on January 13, 2018, 12:59:56 PM
I think that skewers pretty well the incessant demands for more exposition, more background, more consistency in internal world-building. I also think it captures a difference between fans in 1982 and fans in 2017.


People had similar reactions to ESB when it came out as well. It was only lasted that people said “clearly the best”


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Raph on January 15, 2018, 02:32:01 AM
I finally saw this. My sense is that it does two key things that basically add up to "the end of Star Wars" -- as we know it at least. Thematically, this wraps the key arcs of the entire series, in order to set up new ones. All that remains for the last movie is plot.

It is doing set up to create a permanent soap-opera-like storytelling engine. It ends the notion that the Skywalker family is special. It sets it up instead so that there is always one key hero and one key villain who are strong in the Force, because the Force *averages out* to balance. It returns the theme of the Rebellion to a lot of small scrappy individuals, ordinary folk, rather than an aristocracy, and it's going to scatter them to the winds, which means endless possible sources for stories. It provides satisfying arcs and lessons for all the main characters (biggest difference between this an Empire is that in ESB those lessons are learned offscreen between ESB and ROTJ; the ending is actually in the pit of despair).

The nice meta touch is that it literally ends on kids playing with lightsabers -- just as the actual movie accomplished in real life. That's about as firm a statement of a new beginning and of potential as you can get.

It was enjoyable, but it definitely felt like an ending of something to me. I wouldn't be surprised if the next one basically set up a new beginning for ongoing franchise development.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on January 15, 2018, 07:03:21 AM
"Ongoing franchise development" has been star wars' M.O since the 80's, they don't need a movie to set that up.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on January 15, 2018, 08:47:12 AM
https://imgur.com/a/6smO9
Holy shit people are getting desperate to defend this movie from even the slightest criticism.

That album is absolutely right on about the stupid complaints most people have about the movie.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on January 15, 2018, 09:51:48 AM
I'm guessing that insofar as there was a plan - it wasn't even planned as the end of the skywalkers. Luke will be back as a force ghost and keeping Leia alive must surely have been a Disney stipulation.

I'd really like it to be a transition to a setting for stories not about skywalkers and that don't completely reorient the galaxy twice in every 6 hours of screentime - it is possible that this is what RJ intended. But I'm sceptical that this will happen. One quarter of the main cast are still direct descendants of Darth Vader.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: IainC on January 15, 2018, 11:12:02 AM
Some redpill idiot spent time out of his busy life to make a 'defeminised edit' of TLJ. That version is only 46 minutes long.

Quote
Basically The Last Jedi minus Girlz Powah and other silly stuff.

It would probably be easier to make a list of things that were kept instead of things that were changed. Hardly any scene got away without cuts.

The resulting movie is (wait for it ...) 46 minutes long.

Yeah I know, it's not ideal. It's made from a CAM source (the most recent HDTC one with the Asian hard subs, which is pretty watchable). It has issues. But it had to be done.

You will probably enjoy it most when you view it less as a blockbuster movie and more as some kind of episode from some non-existent mediocre Star Wars series.

Here's a short rundown of changes (spoilers! full list in description.txt):
- No whiny/reluctant/murderous psycho Luke.
- NO HALDO! She simply doesn't exist. Her whole subplot doesn't exist. The Kamikaze is carried out by Poe. ( = Poe dies.)
- Leia never scolds, questions nor demotes Poe. - Lea dies. Kylo kills her.
- Kylo is more badass and much less conflicted and volatile.
- Kylo takes on more of Snoke's guards, Rey struggles with a single one.
- No bomber heroism by china girl in the beginning.
- No Canto Bight.
- No superpowered Rey.
- Luke is not a semi-force-ghost and is smashed by the first laser cannon shot. (sorry, I just had to!)
- Phasma is finished after the first blow by Finn. (Women are naturally weaker than men, she isn't force-sensitive, and we know nothing about any exo-skeleton in her suit)
- Asian chick speaks less, doesn't bully Finn, Finn doesn't try to escape, she is never formally introduced. She is just there and occasionally smiles at Finn or screams "Finn!". She has no sister. Serves her right for all the heinous stuff she did.
- Lots of little cuts reducing the number of female facial shots. Too many to count. (Pun intended.)
- Quite a few scenes rearranged so that the flow of the shortened movie is still somewhat coherent.

Obviously it's far from perfect. The source is not even on DVD-level. Some of the technical edits were slacked because why not, it's a CAM source (e.g. some masks and Snoke disappearing). Sometimes there's an extreme zoom despite the mediocre quality. There are plotholes and continuity errors and some cuts are not as smooth as they should be, especially audio transition-wise. But for what it's worth, it can now at least be viewed without feeling nauseaus about most of the terrible big and small decisions they made in this film. Also, at least the intro sequence is now very watchable and actually much cooler without all of Leia's nitpicking. Now it's all one united Resistance fighting without inner conflict and that's much more satisfying to watch. Due to the extreme shortening, the whole movie is much more fast-paced now, at times unfortuantely also rushed due to a lack of usable filler footage

 :uhrr:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on January 15, 2018, 11:44:14 AM
"Superpowered Rey"... do people just mean she moved some rocks? Or am I forgetting something?

Because after two movies as main character you definitely get to move rocks. Admittedly Luke was shit at rocks but he did blow up the death star with the force so honestly he can't complain.

In tFA I had niggles with superpowered Rey. If anyone is still complaining about it after she literally trains with Luke Skywalker I don't know what to tell you.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on January 15, 2018, 12:07:57 PM
To be fair, she didn't train with him very long. Also, she's a woman so clearly she should have trained longer for less money.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on January 15, 2018, 02:02:12 PM
I do accept that every part of this film and the last one would have benefited from a few 'time passes' star wars wipes.

But seriously, she visited the centre of all jedidom. That has to grant a pretty big xp boost. Definitely enough for 'force lift'.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on January 15, 2018, 02:17:48 PM
Isane person

I feel like a worse human being for even having read that.  How do you even find shit like this?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Surlyboi on January 15, 2018, 03:48:00 PM
"no bomber heroism by china girl..."   :uhrr:

I'm pretty sure this guy is in utter bewilderment why no woman will touch him.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on January 15, 2018, 03:53:31 PM
Upside, he won't reproduce.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on January 15, 2018, 04:28:20 PM
That's what the roofies are for... DUH.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Surlyboi on January 15, 2018, 04:45:22 PM
He's too alpha for most women. The roofies are to help her see his brilliance.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on January 15, 2018, 05:06:17 PM
Gorilla mindset channel?  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on January 15, 2018, 07:00:27 PM
I do accept that every part of this film and the last one would have benefited from a few 'time passes' star wars wipes.

But seriously, she visited the centre of all jedidom. That has to grant a pretty big xp boost. Definitely enough for 'force lift'.
I have zero problems with Rei throwing force around like nothing (she has raw talent or what ever), but wasn't one of the big points of tLJ is that Luke refuses to train her?  Wasn't that one of the things everybody went off about as being 'subversive'?

Like, Luke taught her how to sense things with the force, and then she fell into a hole.  That was about the extent of her training as I recall.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on January 15, 2018, 07:55:49 PM
Training in the force was never some “level up” type shit. Being able to reach out and feel everything is about all you need and is frankly just about all Yoda gave to Luke. (Luke was there like... a few days... maybe...)



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on January 15, 2018, 08:13:47 PM
Some redpill idiot spent time out of his busy life to make a 'defeminised edit' of TLJ. That version is only 46 minutes long.

Quote
Basically The Last Jedi minus Girlz Powah and other silly stuff.

<snip cringe inducing hatred>


 :uhrr:

I literally cannot understand hating women this much. I know the cheap and easy joke is "well, you're not a Republican." But this is...it's just oozing with the author's contempt of women. I mean, he cut out reaction shots with women in them because...too much estrogen or something?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on January 15, 2018, 08:17:01 PM
Training in the force was never some “level up” type shit. Being able to reach out and feel everything is about all you need and is frankly just about all Yoda gave to Luke. (Luke was there like... a few days... maybe...)
Rock lifts and military like obstacle course runs seemed pretty important to Yoda's training regime.   :awesome_for_real:

And to be fair, Luke wasn't all that great with the force after that training.  He basically learned just enough to let him make use of some of the powers, thought that meant he could fight Vadar, who promptly kicked the shit out of his untrained ass (just as Yoda predicted would happen since he hadn't finished his training).  Then he went back and trained with Yoda for years until he became a Jedi master, and then kicked Vaders face in.  Mind you, of the many things I didn't like about this movie, Rei's power level is near the bottom.  Though I can understand how for some people its jarring that she has become such a force badass in a way that goes against how the previous 6 movies portrayed what it takes to achieve that.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on January 15, 2018, 08:29:07 PM
Training in the force was never some “level up” type shit. Being able to reach out and feel everything is about all you need and is frankly just about all Yoda gave to Luke. (Luke was there like... a few days... maybe...)
Rock lifts and military like obstacle course runs seemed pretty important to Yoda's training regime.   :awesome_for_real:

And to be fair, Luke wasn't all that great with the force after that training.  He basically learned just enough to let him make use of some of the powers, thought that meant he could fight Vadar, who promptly kicked the shit out of his untrained ass (just as Yoda predicted would happen since he hadn't finished his training).  Then he went back and trained with Yoda for years until he became a Jedi master, and then kicked Vaders face in.  .

Did you watch the Return of the Jedi? Luke doesn't return to see Yoda until after he rescues Han. And he doesn't really whip Vader's ass, he spends most of the movie retreating from him. Granted, he was hoping to redeem him, not beat him. Still...


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on January 15, 2018, 08:35:21 PM
I always thought the implication was that he went back and trained with Yoda for a long time between the movies.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on January 15, 2018, 08:43:40 PM
I always thought the implication was that he went back and trained with Yoda for a long time between the movies.

No, he goes and rescues Han right away and then he sees Yoda and Yoda is like “I ain’t got shit to teach you”


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Abagadro on January 15, 2018, 11:18:07 PM
I always thought the implication was that he went back and trained with Yoda for a long time between the movies.

No, he goes and rescues Han right away and then he sees Yoda and Yoda is like “I ain’t got shit to teach you”

It's generally thought that there was a year between the events in Cloud City and rescuing Han.   Luke wasn't training with Yoda, but he was probably training on his own in that time. He has clearly become better at using the Force between the two films.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on January 16, 2018, 02:56:53 AM
I thought the show made it fairly obvious that Rey has absurd power with near zero control. It's like the first time you go against a teenage pitcher that suddenly grew an arm. Yeah, dude can throw fast, but he's walking every other batter.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on January 16, 2018, 03:25:35 AM
Is Rey a force baddass though?

Force related feats so far...

Mindtricks a stormtrooper
Nifty with a lightsabre
Force grabs lightsabres
Lifts rocks

They already established she was good with a stick on Jakku and anyway none of this is really jedi master level.

The mindtrick threw me in tFA, but if you can mindtrick with no training at all, the rest of this just isn't a big deal.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on January 16, 2018, 03:37:46 AM
Well, I sort of always lumped in light saber ability with force power.  Being able to literally deflect bullets and fight at the levels Jedi do is sort of implied that they are channeling force to give them Daredevil like senses and reflexes (also see Luke making a one and a million shot with his tie fighter using force).  Just simply being good with a stick doesn't really gel with defeating the galaxies most powerfull force user, who's spent most of his life specifically training to be a bad ass Jedi, on the first try.  Unless you are a force badass.  Also beat Luke as well (though I guess you can say he was rusty).

Again, mind you, I'm fine with the "she has raw talent" aspect and care very little about that particular complaint (everything else about the movie is what sucked  :awesome_for_real:).  But unless they give some reason in the next movie, it is a bit inconsistent.  


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: IainC on January 16, 2018, 04:35:49 AM
In ESB, Luke is able to nearly lift his X-Wing out of the swamp when he first meets Yoda. At that point the only training he's had is in ANH for however many days on the Falcon between leaving Tatooine and bumping into the Death Star. It's clear that he only fails to lift the X-Wing because he believes that he can't and not because he needs more practice.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on January 16, 2018, 05:54:34 AM
In ESB, Luke is able to nearly lift his X-Wing out of the swamp when he first meets Yoda. At that point the only training he's had is in ANH for however many days on the Falcon between leaving Tatooine and bumping into the Death Star. It's clear that he only fails to lift the X-Wing because he believes that he can't and not because he needs more practice.

Fucking A.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YkbgvRMpW0

He barely gets it to budge. The scene implies that he has a LONG journey ahead of him as he has a lot to learn about the force. Luke Skywalker story is full of failure. Full of moments when he doesn't live up to expectations or can't even do the basics. There is progression, half rushed due to pressing need and mostly haphazard since again nothing about the situation Luke was in was normal even by jedi standards. He really only has 2 moments when he takes a decisive win against the odds between 3 movies. And Anakin, the chosen one, the force imbued jesus-kun only has one real win under his belt, two if you count the beginning of his fall to the dark side with count dooku.

Even my wife a non star wars nerd but a seasoned movie goer links the ability to not cut yourself in half with a light saber with force proficiency. And watching Rey and Jar Jar wield one registered a big wtf when the Force Awakens ended. But even more annoying, these movies would be at least bearable with some attention to what it takes to be a jedi. Its like literally saying Tom Cruise learned how to be a samurai after 2 weeks of being a hobo in a random Japanese village. Its laughably stupid only remotely redeemed by him dying at the end.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ironwood on January 16, 2018, 06:06:02 AM
Tom Cruise didn't die in that movie.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on January 16, 2018, 06:44:16 AM
I prefer his version.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 16, 2018, 06:44:41 AM
Why does Luke fail? Yoda says it in the movie. Because he won't let himself believe in the Force or himself enough.

Not because he hasn't done 10,000 rock lifts. Yoda implies very clearly that lifting the X-Wing is not a matter of training, it's a matter of belief, of total commitment.

Why is Luke able to fight Darth Vader well in the 3rd movie? Because he's totally committed now to the premise that he's going to save his father by reaching the good in him. Not because he spent a year training on Dagobah. Yoda doesn't greet him on his return as if he and Luke have been training extensively since the Cloud City debacle, but as if this is the first time he's seen him since then.

What has Luke discovered in the time between ROTJ and TFA? That it's not about the training--that this was an affectation of the Jedi. In fact, arguably the Jedi may have known it too--that they were using the "you need training" thing as a way to keep Force wielders under their command. The Jedi as we see them in the prequels are dedicated to making sure there are no Force users running around beyond their control--perhaps that's because they think that's how you get new Dark Side wielders.

What's the training for among the Jedi, really? Learning to fight--the warrior piece of it. Which Rey, we've seen, has been doing on her own with her stick-weapon ever since she was left on Jakku. As well as handling the athletics of raiding starship hulks. That part of it shouldn't require any additional explanation--she's basically Lara Croft--she fights, she trains, she goes into dangerous places that are physically challenging.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on January 16, 2018, 07:09:28 AM
Fuck you and your rock lifts.

The point of Luke's failure is that he has much more to learn about the force and himself. Its. A. Journey. Its. A. Path. That he takes in order to get to Return of the Jedi. Of course he doesn't believe that force can lift X-wings. Neither does the fucking audience, we come to realize that in completing his training, his self discovery, by attain a degree of discipline he can do those amazing things. How he reaches that is up to the movie to imply or to show. Or even let him fail, as again we don't know if Luke CAN be a jedi and he rushes off to fight darth vader we're given doubt to whether he will ever reach that point.

Fuck sake this concept is in our fucking kid shows. Avatar The Last Airbender has a little gary sue called Aang. He is the best airbender of his generation, a natural born genius and who can learn anything in a fraction of the time of any normal person. Yet even he had to go through a journey, not across the map but personally in order to become the Avatar the story says he can become. In fact the last air bender does a better job at being star wars, than star wars and I'm starting to wonder why their even wasting these actors time producing shyt.

Fuck this Disney bullshit and the clique it claims.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 16, 2018, 07:46:50 AM
"Please show me the same cookie-cutter version of the same archetypical story with the same archtypical characters that I've seen before because otherwise I don't know how to recognize it."


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on January 16, 2018, 08:56:10 AM
While I get what you all are saying about her lack of a journey, her lack of growth I don't think this is a Star Wars thing. Or even a Disney thing. This is a mordern movies thing.

At some point, most movies gave up on this type of arc. You watch an action movie now, for example, and even if the main character has never touched a gun in their life, in most movies they're a John Wick level bad ass by the time the credits roll. Usually with no explanation given. These days it seems to all be about characters being bad asses with zero effort or really even zero challenge to them. It's why movie fights are increasinly boring to me as time passes. It's very rare to see the main character suffer a setback or even get hurt. It's one reason I loved Atomic Blonde so much. She wins most of her fights but she comes out looking like a person who is held together by pain pills and alcohol.

Also, I just realized, we never see Rey deflect a blaster with her saber. We see her win some fights with it sure, though only the throne room fight really counts. The TFA fight was against Kylo after he'd been shot and was mentally screwed up from killing his dad.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on January 16, 2018, 09:12:47 AM
I would like to hear more about how Real jedi Really work.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ironwood on January 16, 2018, 09:24:39 AM
Usually 9 to 5, but you can pay extra for after hours support.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on January 16, 2018, 10:24:04 AM
I think that the difference between end of ESB Luke and beginning of RotJ Luke is actually one of the big failings of the original trilogy. There feels like a greater deal of time between the movies than there actually is and Luke is likely much further along as a Jedi at the beginning of RotJ than he should be if training is required. And even in Jabba's palace, his overconfidence in his Jedi badassery backfires and he's captured. However, he also knows he has Lando as backup. He doesn't really become "a Jedi" in the sense of the Jedi Council until the very end when he realizes that he can't beat the Emperor or save his father without surrendering to the whims of the Force. You see the same kind of surrender at the end of TLJ. In that sense, I actually do have very little problem with TLJ's character journey for Luke other than the very clipped, much too short "I sensed Ben had been turned by Snoke and so went to kill him even though the only evidence any of the audience ever has of any of that is because I said so in this one little flashback."

I also don't have a problem with Rey's ability with the Force and never have. I can see people's problems with it, specifically the Mary Sue aspect of her character, but I really don't have a problem with that. It's pretty much established canon that some Force users are quicker studies than others. I mean, one of the reasons Qui-Gon took Anakin in the first place wasn't just the midichlorians, he distinctly felt something about the kid before he ever tested him (so if you retcon out Midichlorians for mercy's sake, there's still a reason to save Anakin). And clearly the Phantom Menace led you to believe that Anakin's amazing flying abilities in the pod race and "luck of the draw" destruction of the main ship at the end was an unconscious use of the Force (or the Force working through him if you are so inclined).

TLJ's problems are way above and beyond whether Force users are immediate badasses or require unlocking holocrons.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on January 16, 2018, 10:26:51 AM
In ESB, Luke is able to nearly lift his X-Wing out of the swamp when he first meets Yoda. At that point the only training he's had is in ANH for however many days on the Falcon between leaving Tatooine and bumping into the Death Star. It's clear that he only fails to lift the X-Wing because he believes that he can't and not because he needs more practice.

Exactly. Getting Luke to believe in "magic" is the majority of his training. Rey already believes, she's grown up believing.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on January 16, 2018, 10:37:07 AM
I love the mary sue thing comes up so much with rey as though it's somehow a new concept or that it's even an extreme example of it.  Who would you pick for top mary sue characters in film?

Off the top of my head tony stark gets a big nod.  Just saying "he's a genius" is not a great excuse for bending every law of physics and building a nuclear heart and walking robot body from spare parts in a cave with a forge.  Every Iron man movie had something just magic'd up by tony because the plot demanded it with no hint of explanation beyond "of course he can, he's smart" and we don't even see WHY he's smart, there's zero explanation given or any kind of backstory shown about him.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on January 16, 2018, 10:41:45 AM
I don't consider Tony Stark a Mary Sue simply because his flaws are SO prominent in his character, and despite the fact that yeah, he can super science up some bullshit for just about anything, much of the time that blows up in his face. Ultron anyone?

That dumb bitch from Fifty Shades? Mary Sue. The lead from Twilight? Mary Sue.

Rey isn't even close because sure, she's survived but what has it won her?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on January 16, 2018, 10:54:26 AM
I'll grant you he has character flaws but literally nothing stark does negatively impacted him.  He's still with pepper and even after ultron goes on a killing spree across the world(wait, I think ultron only fucks up that one city in the movie, they really fucked that villain over) tony gets a slap on the wrist.  stark comes out of every situation smelling like a fresh bed of roses, even the whole alchoholic thing is hand-waved off after the first movie. 

Also I veto twilight and 50 shades as they are just both terrible and written by insane people.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on January 16, 2018, 11:13:15 AM
I don't consider Tony Stark a Mary Sue simply because his flaws are SO prominent in his character, and despite the fact that yeah, he can super science up some bullshit for just about anything, much of the time that blows up in his face. Ultron anyone?

That dumb bitch from Fifty Shades? Mary Sue. The lead from Twilight? Mary Sue.

Rey isn't even close because sure, she's survived but what has it won her?

the best ship in the galaxy
the best force usee in the galaxy
defecto symbol of the resistance
2 hot guys pining after her
the best weapon in the galaxy
the founding textbooms of the jedi order

she has more in common with the girl from books like twilight and hunger games. wish fulfilment power fantasy for a  audiences who wants power and adjacency without any of the actual consequences or work required. you can probably sub rey in for bella not miss a beat.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on January 16, 2018, 11:46:10 AM
I'll grant you he has character flaws but literally nothing stark does negatively impacted him.  He's still with pepper and even after ultron goes on a killing spree across the world(wait, I think ultron only fucks up that one city in the movie, they really fucked that villain over) tony gets a slap on the wrist. 

Actually, he specifically says in Civil War that Pepper and him are done. That one destroyed city actually led to the Sokovia accords, which required him and all super-powered people to register. That also led to his very public and painful falling out with Steve Rogers, which led to Rhodey getting shot out of the sky and paralyzed.

Sure, he wasn't the one getting jailed, or having his back broken. But you can't say those things haven't negatively impacted him.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on January 16, 2018, 12:01:30 PM
Are people taking crazy pills?

the best ship in the galaxy -  It's not
the best force usee in the galaxy - snoke hands her ass to her so no
defecto symbol of the resistance - leia doesn't seem to give a shit about rey in fact finn seems to be the only one making her a priority
2 hot guys pining after her - two males  showing interest in a hot girl? stop the fucking presses.
the best weapon in the galaxy -  It's not
the founding textbooms of the jedi order - She stole them from Luke who found them but we better just get on Frodo's ass too about just happened to 'find' the one ring in his uncle's fucking living room.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on January 16, 2018, 12:18:30 PM
Are people taking crazy pills?

the best ship in the galaxy -  It's not
the best force usee in the galaxy - snoke hands her ass to her so no
defecto symbol of the resistance - leia doesn't seem to give a shit about rey in fact finn seems to be the only one making her a priority
2 hot guys pining after her - two males  showing interest in a hot girl? stop the fucking presses.
the best weapon in the galaxy -  It's not
the founding textbooms of the jedi order - She stole them from Luke who found them but we better just get on Frodo's ass too about just happened to 'find' the one ring in his uncle's fucking living room.

The only thing I'm going to respond to you with is;

Snokes dead. Killed by Ben. Rey is stronger than Ben Solo by a factor of a lot. Go back to dry humping to the corpse of this franchise.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on January 16, 2018, 12:33:29 PM


Snokes dead. Killed by Ben. Rey is stronger than Ben Solo by a factor of a lot.


I like how people who don't like the movie just call him ben, do you spell microsoft as m$ too? it's what cool kids do.

Snoke wasn't killed in any way that power in the force mattered, he was fooled by his apprentice and murdered.  To say rey is even stronger than the artist formerly known as ben solo is also not proven in any way, they had one skirmish that got interrupted and was able to fight back a bit on his mind probing shit, that makes her more powerful?

It's almost as if people are looking for reasons to be upset.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on January 16, 2018, 12:47:29 PM
Also Finn may be over her and I am not sure who the other boy is because Poe was all about that Finn last movie.

Rey is, clearly the second strongest force user in the galaxy (out of three confirmed)


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on January 16, 2018, 01:39:38 PM
Are people taking crazy pills?

the best ship in the galaxy -  It's not
the best force usee in the galaxy - snoke hands her ass to her so no
defecto symbol of the resistance - leia doesn't seem to give a shit about rey in fact finn seems to be the only one making her a priority
2 hot guys pining after her - two males  showing interest in a hot girl? stop the fucking presses.
the best weapon in the galaxy -  It's not
the founding textbooms of the jedi order - She stole them from Luke who found them but we better just get on Frodo's ass too about just happened to 'find' the one ring in his uncle's fucking living room.

The only thing I'm going to respond to you with is;

Snokes dead. Killed by Ben. Rey is stronger than Ben Solo by a factor of a lot. Go back to dry humping to the corpse of this franchise.


Jesus christ, and you wonder why we say your complaints are moronic.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on January 16, 2018, 02:07:58 PM
I like how moronic means, everyone points it out but I don't see a problem with this because i turned my brain off for several scenes of this movie and admitted not using critical analysis for several moments of this film as to not tinge or hinder my enjoyment. Which is fine, the movie made a million + dollars, so someone enjoyed this shlock.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 16, 2018, 02:32:59 PM
Normally you just seem like a troll who is a bit more than medium high at the time you're typing, but this time you seem to really really feel this way. You poor guy.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on January 16, 2018, 04:47:43 PM
Also Finn may be over her and I am not sure who the other boy is because Poe was all about that Finn last movie.

Rey is, clearly the second strongest force user in the galaxy (out of three confirmed)

There are at least four live force users.

Admittedly one of them only uses it for chores.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: IainC on January 16, 2018, 04:53:50 PM
Ren, Rey, Leia, slave kid. Who is the fifth?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on January 16, 2018, 04:54:53 PM
Ren, Rey, Leia, slave kid. Who is the fifth?

Jar Jar Binx Finn and that's a stretch.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on January 16, 2018, 04:58:29 PM
Ren, Rey, Leia, slave kid. Who is the fifth?

Leia is dead. We can leave her out even if she doesn’t die on screen


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on January 16, 2018, 05:14:50 PM
Ren, Rey, Leia, slave kid. Who is the fifth?

Jar Jar Binx Finn and that's a stretch.

wow


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on January 16, 2018, 07:14:02 PM

The only thing I'm going to respond to you with is;

Snokes dead. Killed by Ben. Rey is stronger than Ben Solo by a factor of a lot. Go back to dry humping to the corpse of this franchise.


I know this has already been covered but we have no onscreen evidence she is stronger than Ben.

TFA - Yes, she overcomes his mind attack and surprises him but my read of the scene is that she took him by surprise as he didn't even know she had force powers. Yes, she beat him in a light saber battle but A) He'd just been shot by Chewbacca. They spent half of the movie showing us how powerful that crossbow was. Stormtroopers hit by it fly through the air. We also get several prominent shots of blood dripping from his abdomen. He also fights Finn first who actually gets in a glancing blow against him. And finally, and this is a bit nerdy but I don't care, the novelization explicitly says that when he killed Han he actually was so unbalanced by it he lost some power because he just couldn't focus.

TLJ - Zero evidence in this movie. Their only true conflict is when they fight to pull the saber to themselves and it ends in a draw. Snoke also explicitly says the Force granted her power to be his counter-balance.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 16, 2018, 09:35:35 PM
The basic message of the kid at the end is: the Force is awake. The Jedi were a kind of Army Corps of Engineers who tried to channel it down concrete banks. That's all gone now. So I think by the end of this movie, you can safely assume there are a lot more Force users out there somewhere.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: calapine on January 16, 2018, 10:09:16 PM
Some redpill idiot spent time out of his busy life to make a 'defeminised edit' of TLJ. That version is only 46 minutes long.


Quote
Basically The Last Jedi minus Girlz Powah and other silly stuff.


- No whiny/reluctant/murderous psycho Luke.
How is being a murderous psycho = feminised?   :uhrr:


Honestly the only thing that bothered me was the purple-hair, no uniform, everyone does what he/she wants stuff.

But I am more a pro-empire authoritarian person in the first place, so that's probably to be expected.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on January 17, 2018, 01:50:36 AM
Ren, Rey, Leia, slave kid. Who is the fifth?

Yeah, funny thing, turns out I can't count to four.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ironwood on January 17, 2018, 03:34:01 AM
his overconfidence in his Jedi badassery backfires and he's captured.

Wait, no.  No.  This is not how that plan worked.  The plan was one of those 'It would be nice if this worked, but here's the actual plan'.  According to most sources and novelisations and whatnot, Luke knew that getting out of that fucking fortress would be horrendous and pretty much involve killing everyone.

His plan was to get captured and then take the Sarlacc trip if all failed so that escape was 'easier'.  He had Lando and Artoo with the saber.  He also put Leia in there as first gasp.

Now, I can see that you can argue the other way, of course, but you don't put all these safeguards in if you think you can just walk in and mind control some cunt.  Say what you like, but Luke PLANNED for all that shit.

You're welcome to disagree, of course, but this has always been my interpretation.  Chewie even reassures Han multiple times that 'don't worry, Luke's got this'.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on January 17, 2018, 07:25:07 AM
his overconfidence in his Jedi badassery backfires and he's captured.

Wait, no.  No.  This is not how that plan worked.  The plan was one of those 'It would be nice if this worked, but here's the actual plan'.  According to most sources and novelisations and whatnot, Luke knew that getting out of that fucking fortress would be horrendous and pretty much involve killing everyone.

His plan was to get captured and then take the Sarlacc trip if all failed so that escape was 'easier'.  He had Lando and Artoo with the saber.  He also put Leia in there as first gasp.

Now, I can see that you can argue the other way, of course, but you don't put all these safeguards in if you think you can just walk in and mind control some cunt.  Say what you like, but Luke PLANNED for all that shit.

You're welcome to disagree, of course, but this has always been my interpretation.  Chewie even reassures Han multiple times that 'don't worry, Luke's got this'.


That's been pretty much how it has been portrayed, both on screen and in the novels. As they're going to the Sarlac Luke is utterly unworried. And it's not an accident that Lando is one of the guards on their skiff.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 17, 2018, 08:02:19 AM
Yeah. Though it's not a great plan, considering that it sets Leia up to get sexually assaulted by a giant slug and Han only survives by a lucky swing of a stick.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on January 17, 2018, 11:19:50 AM
Well yes, I realize he went in there having a backup plan, so he wasn't totally confident he could Jedi mind trick his way out of it (though having lived on Tatooine, I'm pretty sure he knew he couldn't mind trick a Hutt). He did, however, think he'd be able to fight his way through it, otherwise, it's a really stupid fucking plan that got Leia captured.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: BobtheSomething on January 17, 2018, 12:37:40 PM
Yeah. Though it's not a great plan, considering that it sets Leia up to get sexually assaulted by a giant slug and Han only survives by a lucky swing of a stick.

For this reason, I always assumed that Leia jumped the gun on unfreezing Han.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 17, 2018, 01:23:28 PM
Yeah, that seems kind of right--that Luke was hoping to get Jabba to take just him out for the execution and then strike back at him. Though also there, Luke wasn't really ready for the rancor fight, and he was pretty well underestimating Boba Fett if Boba Fett hadn't been played as an incompetent doofus in this particular film. And yet nobody was screaming Mary Sue then that I recall--the big fan gripes were really about the Ewoks and a teeny bit about Leia being Luke's sister.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on January 17, 2018, 03:06:45 PM
I don't think "mary sue" was even a thing back then. Even if it was it was not common or people didn't care.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: BobtheSomething on January 17, 2018, 03:32:16 PM
Yeah, that seems kind of right--that Luke was hoping to get Jabba to take just him out for the execution and then strike back at him. Though also there, Luke wasn't really ready for the rancor fight, and he was pretty well underestimating Boba Fett if Boba Fett hadn't been played as an incompetent doofus in this particular film. And yet nobody was screaming Mary Sue then that I recall--the big fan gripes were really about the Ewoks and a teeny bit about Leia being Luke's sister.


I seem to recall the words "Han Solo" and "emasculated" being used together a lot.  And fans absolutely complained about Boba Fett going out like a punk.  But that ties more into Han Solo being the Finn of the movie and sucking Fett into his vortex of comic relief buffoonery than Luke being a Mary Sue.

Edit: for that matter, I remember a lot of complaints about the tone of the film, such as torture being played up for laughs as opposed to the previous two, and of course the raping of Leia as a set up for a Threepio.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: IainC on January 17, 2018, 03:39:43 PM
I don't think "mary sue" was even a thing back then. Even if it was it was not common or people didn't care.

Fun fact, the original Mary Sue was a character in a 1973 Star Trek fan fiction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue).

Quote
The term "Mary Sue" comes from the name of a character created by Paula Smith in 1973 for her parody story "A Trekkie's Tale":15 published in her fanzine Menagerie #2.The story starred Lieutenant Mary Sue ("the youngest Lieutenant in the fleet — only fifteen and a half years old"), and satirized unrealistic characters in Star Trek fan fiction. Such characters were generally female adolescents who had romantic liaisons with established canonical adult characters, or in some cases were the younger relatives or protégées of those characters. By 1976 Menagerie's editors stated that they disliked such characters, saying:

Mary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling. This character can also be found burrowing her way into the good graces/heart/mind of one of the Big Three [Kirk, Spock, and McCoy], if not all three at once. She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship.

"Mary Sue" today has changed from its original meaning and now carries a generalized, although not universal, connotation of wish-fulfillment and is commonly associated with self-insertion. True self-insertion is a literal and generally undisguised representation of the author; most characters described as "Mary Sues" are not, though they are often called "proxies"[9] for the author. The negative connotation comes from this "wish-fulfillment" implication: the "Mary Sue" is judged as a poorly developed character, too perfect and lacking in realism to be interesting.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on January 17, 2018, 06:17:05 PM
Well yes, I realize he went in there having a backup plan, so he wasn't totally confident he could Jedi mind trick his way out of it (though having lived on Tatooine, I'm pretty sure he knew he couldn't mind trick a Hutt). He did, however, think he'd be able to fight his way through it, otherwise, it's a really stupid fucking plan that got Leia captured.

See, I never thought of it as a backup plan. Even as a kid I fairly clearly saw how he laid out the game pieces.

1) Send Lando in early to establish himself as a guard.
2) Send the droids in with Artoo having his lightsaber.
3) Send Leah in to A) get Chewie in place to watch over Han and B) Defrost Han
4) Show up minus a lightsaber, piss off Jabba enough to get him to take them out to be executed away from the palace.

I always figured that as a native Luke knew 2 things: 1) Jabba had a pet rancor he fed guests to and 2) if he got really pissed he sent people out to be digested by the Sarlacc since it took 1000 years for them to die. For a "normal" person I think Luke's actions would be "let's roll the dice and hope they fall the way I want." I think Luke spent the time between movies looking into possible futures and figured this one had the best chance of getting them all out alive.





Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on January 18, 2018, 01:10:21 AM
I always thought he was surprised by the Rancor, and prepared for the Sarlacc. There was just zero point to standing on the trap door and placing yourself in some extra jeopardy that he didn't have people in place to help him with.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ironwood on January 18, 2018, 02:42:08 AM
I think the Rancor genuinely scared him, but there was no way he didn't know exactly what he was doing.  He stood on the trapdoor.  He silenced 3PO with a look.  He grabbed a GUN for a really clumsy shot at Jabba. 

Oh, and he can see the fucking future.   :oh_i_see:

I'm of the view the visit was just to piss Jabba off and get out to Karkoon.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on January 18, 2018, 09:30:00 AM
I always viewed it less as...

"all part of Luke's cunning plan"

... and more...

"I'm an actual jedi now so hey you can fuck about all you want but me and my backup will just flip out and wreck everything if you really really make us. But I'll give you every chance to back down because my light sabre is a pain to clean and I'm above all of this shit."


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 18, 2018, 09:34:21 AM
Yeah, kind of. We get that sense from Jedi generally in the prequels--that their faith in the Force is that it will let them improvise an answer to any confrontation and come out on top, and to let enemies know that in advance. Which is kind of why they were arguably guardians of "peace and justice", really--if a Jedi showed up, you get the sense that much of the time, the bad guys just backed down or crept away.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on January 18, 2018, 09:51:59 AM
This is still George Lucas we are talking about, there was no more thought put into that whole sequence other than "this looks cool".


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 18, 2018, 09:57:20 AM
That too. And also of course, "This is what used to happen in Flash Gordon, he got dropped into arenas or cages and had to fight monsters."


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on January 27, 2018, 08:33:20 PM
This Twitter account is doing genius work with the throne room scene. https://twitter.com/rachlikesbands


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on February 07, 2018, 02:22:20 PM
So, per Disney release, Weiss/Benioff are also writing and producing a trilogy, different to the RJ trilogy and what they are calling the episodic "skywalker saga".

I like that they are increasingly focussing on stories separate from the 'episode n' track, but I'm not sure I'd hire those 2 to write cards for hallmark.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Soulflame on February 07, 2018, 02:37:26 PM
This Twitter account is doing genius work with the throne room scene. https://twitter.com/rachlikesbands


You sure that's the right twitter account?  That shows no tweets.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on February 07, 2018, 03:18:37 PM
Moved, plus she's had some IP takedowns. https://twitter.com/rachnarok/status/957030732395958272

Polygon got some of the best ones.

The best one is synched to "Toxic". https://twitter.com/rachnarok/status/955869025778765826


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Shannow on February 08, 2018, 06:29:32 AM
Proves that 'Dont stop me now' makes everything better.  :drill:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on February 08, 2018, 09:44:25 AM
Indeed.  Also feels like a big miss for a Guile's Theme Goes With Everything meme.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Samwise on February 08, 2018, 11:32:42 AM
The best one is synched to "Toxic". https://twitter.com/rachnarok/status/955869025778765826

Made even better by the fact that Plinkett used that same track in some of his original Star Wars reviews.   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on March 01, 2018, 07:41:10 PM
Meanwhile

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og77pfVFJTs


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Surlyboi on March 01, 2018, 11:00:07 PM
Yeah, that reviewer's a nimrod.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on March 02, 2018, 03:36:17 AM
Literally made it ten seconds. Hate his voice, hate his bullshit buzzword bingo. It might even be a good review, but I'll never know.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on March 02, 2018, 09:31:35 AM
I watched about 10 minutes.  He makes some good points, but that delivery is annoying.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on March 02, 2018, 11:22:44 AM
Liked it!   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Paelos on March 20, 2018, 09:16:06 PM
I saw this. I walked away with this face.  :oh_i_see:

The theme of "hey buddy stop doing crazy ass stuff being a hero it gets people killed," is all well and good, except this is a franchise built on the most popular characters being heroes and doing crazy ass stuff. The tone seems like a huge departure from what makes the movies fun. It's like they were trying to be depressing but it lacked some emotional gravitas.

Rey just immediately goes to the dark side well? Why? What's this all about? What's the long mirror thing all about? It was very confusing.

We have all kinds of technology but we essentially turn the whole focus of the movie into OJ in a slow speed stellar white bronco waiting to run out of gas? You're telling me nobody can catch this thing? Not fighters? But yet they can send out a help mission to a casino planet that also fails and basically means nothing?

The plan is to abandon ship but we're also going to tell people to shut up and mind their fucking business and not be a hero?

Luke doesn't want to be a hero either? Great so I guess we're just all about not being heroes anymore. Rey is a nobody, nobody has destiny, nobody matters, we're all just trundling along waiting for the bad guys to shoot us?

It just didn't matter. Other than killing the big bad and ghosting Luke, what the hell was the actual point of this movie? If the point of the movies is going to be "don't be a hero" I can get that from anywhere else. Geez.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on March 20, 2018, 10:20:15 PM
This movie is like a Rorshach test. Forgive me, but for some of you, it makes me feel like you need everything to be really fucking obvious and really fucking simple. It's not like this iteration of it is Citizen Kane but honestly how many movies of this do you need where Dudley Do-Right saves Nell from Snidley Whiplash in exactly the same plot before you say, "Hey, maybe this time, Dudley should be allowed to wonder what it's all for" or Snidley wonders why he has this thing about tying Nell to the railroad tracks.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on March 20, 2018, 11:34:25 PM
That is absolutely not what any of the criticism of the movie is about, in any way, shape or form. It's extremely reductive, but if you want to simplify it down, most of the criticism I've seen of the movie, and the criticism I level at it is "this is not a Star Wars movie and it basically takes the piss at the very concept of a Star Wars movie - but not in a good Thor: Ragnarok way more in a Batman vs. Superman way."


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on March 21, 2018, 12:40:30 AM
Yeah, my main criticism has been piss poor writing and lazy story telling.  There was nothing deep about this.  He tried to deconstruct Star Wars and go against a few expected plot beats.  Suddenly its Citizen Kane to some people, instead of a boring incoherent mess of scenes thrown together.  A friend of mine, who liked it, described it as the least consequential Star Wars ever made, and I have to agree.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Velorath on March 21, 2018, 01:56:17 AM
Yeah, I hate to beat a dead horse here but really, what is this movie about? It's a movie with a bunch of plot, but no actual story. Like if you were writing the two-sentence synopsis for this movie for the cable guide or whatever, what would it be? It feels like a movie made with the knowledge that there's going to be a Star Wars movie every year (and possibly one with this cast every other year). As such they feel this movie doesn't need to have an actual story in mind so long as it feels like there is some arc for the characters and overall story being advanced.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Paelos on March 21, 2018, 07:12:12 AM
I walked away feeling that the movie was completely pointless. Snoke's dead but I just met him really and I hardly care. Luke's "dead" but not really. Losing Han had actual impact, but this was just a strange way to finish off Luke. Then we had was 30 minutes of arc that had nothing to do with anything in regards to the side-quest for Finn and Rose.

They needed to get on the big bad ship. They didn't have the skills, but they do know of a guy on another planet in the middle of a high speed chase. So let's detour over there, find out we can't actually get to the guy, find another guy who just HAPPENS to be a slicer in prison, escape on a bunch of weird horse-cats, and then head back to the ship so that we can get on the big bad ship.

You know how you shore that up? You put the slicer in a Resistance prison on the ship and save us 30 minutes of floundering nonsense. The casino planet is so shoe-horned in there it's the pinnacle of lazy writing, and it's likely because Disney wants to sell another book or movie or some sort of cat-horse doll.

I've read other reviews about political bullshit and women and all that crap. That has nothing to do with this being a bad movie. I'm tired of people defending or attacking something based on weird political hang-ups.

At the core, it's not a Star Wars movie. It went out of it's way to try to be manipulative and depressing and came up boring. It's the anti-Empire. I didn't think of any cool lines or great moments beyond Luke's projection in the battlefield.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on March 21, 2018, 09:38:34 AM
The more time away from the movie the less I've liked it.  When I first saw it I thought it was good, not great but was really put off by how negative some people were about it.  In fact I think I still disagree with a lot of the initial criticisms (luke being too silly, he would never do this/that, floating leia, poe not being told plan, etc) because a lot of these were just writing choices that diverged from what people wanted.

What does bother me more and more with time are things like introducing the laura dern as though she was a long established character who we should give half a shit about when she dies. A side adventure with finn and rose that seems to take place in another movie and is ultimately pointless.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on March 21, 2018, 10:53:57 AM
Yeah, I hate to beat a dead horse here but really, what is this movie about?

Failure.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on March 21, 2018, 02:54:10 PM
I'm gonna stick to my guns here. I think you guys wanted certain Pavlovian bells run for you in expected ways and when they weren't--or they were and then you were not served the treats you have been trained to expect--you went looking for reasons to explain your dissatisfaction.

You could just as easily say that ESB is all plot and no story. It opens with a big set-piece that in the end is only important in story terms because it separates the main protagonists. One group goes off to have an abbreviated hero's journey training montage, the other marks time on the run so that two characters can develop a romance that's largely unconvincing. The bad guy gets one group of good guys, sets a trap for the training montage good guy. There's a surprise that seems to wholly contradict stuff said in the first movie (or it means that the ostensible good guys of the first movie are outrageously manipulative liars, something that the whole series never really got a grip on). It's a series of plot set-pieces that are loosely strung together, but the mood and tone is great and the set-pieces really strong. So it works.

Or ROTJ, which is two separate films, almost: the Tatooine stuff and then the Endor stuff. The central gimmick of the Endor stuff--that the Emperor has foreseen this all and it's a giant trap--ends up being voided in fundamentally inexplicable ways. (e.g., the goddamn Emperor has been successfully plotting everything for his entire life, that's why he's Emperor, and he's at the seeming peak of his powers, so why can't he see that in fact the entire thing is a trap for HIM, that he's gonna lose? Why not just stay safely on Coruscant and let Vader capture Luke and bring him back while the Rebellion gets blown away?)

You can rip all of these movies apart on story grounds, on characterization, on consistency, on what goes unexplained, etc., if you're so inclined. The question is, what inclines you? If you're someone who has liked some of these (rather than a person who hates all of them), I think Last Jedi rankles for reasons that are deeper than simple critique of story etc.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on March 21, 2018, 03:07:50 PM
ROTJ isn't really defensible. It's got some decent set pieces and the first half is ok, but yes, it absolutely falls apart in the end from the minute we are shown that Ewoks defeat the Empire. I don't have a problem with the Emperor being there at the end, as arrogance and overconfidence in his own powers is a key feature of Dark Side Jedi. He also underestimates the power of love or something. ROTJ is a weak film, made weaker by its insistence on catering to children with the goddamn Ewoks.

ESB, however, is not all plot and no story. It does actually turn some of the expectations of the original on its head - i.e. Ben Kenobi was no choir boy and he lied to Luke about Luke's father, Leia seems to be a cocktease by flitting between Luke and Han (and the sister thing didn't really come up until ROTJ), and the big awesome Jedi master is a goddamn grumpy muppet living on a bog planet in the middle of nowhere. Hoth serves a purpose - the Empire is looking for a desperate Rebellion force that's hiding out, and word is that the heroes of the Death Star battle are there. The thread that runs through them is a lot stronger than whatever the fuck was going on in TLJ.

The Last Jedi had no cohesion and very little tension. It seemed to do things just to do them without any real rhyme or reason and most of them it did badly. You could literally remove the entirety of the chase scene, casino plot and mutiny and the movie wouldn't miss them, and I daresay would be better for it.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Raguel on March 21, 2018, 03:32:39 PM
I think most of the Star Wars movies are bad (e.g. bad acting, bad script, etc.) we just give them a pass. Some people actually like the prequels (these people are WRONG). Specifically, there are a lot of problems with TLJ (are people supposed to sacrifice themselves for others or not? You can't have it both ways but this movie does) but I forgive it because it's SW and I like it.

The main issue I have with the new SW is that none of the new characters are very memorable. Maybe that's because  I'm much older than I was when I first saw SW for the first time, but I think it's more fundamental than that. For example, while I think Kylo is a much more interesting character than Vader, he's a lot less compelling of a villain. 


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on March 21, 2018, 03:43:34 PM
I find him much more compelling as a villain because he is more interesting as a character. Even when you know everything about Vader, his motivations are not altogether that interesting, and in the original trilogy, we don't even know that much about his background--there's only a hint of the self-loathing and hatred of his 'master' that might be bubbling under the surface, and that only in ROTJ. Vader is a pulp/serials villain done absolutely right--pure evil, stylish, powerful. But he's all hat and no cattle in some sense.

Real villains are people who do wrong things for the wrong reasons but where that has something of a human prior to it. Ben Solo/Kylo Ren is way more interesting in that sense AND more villainous. Not liking him as a bad guy is partly a case of wanting another disfigured bad ass in black armor as the Big Bad. I'm not sure what else would foot the bill for what people think a Star Wars bad guy ought to be.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on March 21, 2018, 04:24:57 PM
As I've posted about before, Kylo Ren's biggest problem is that he's unconvincing as a bad guy - the minute he takes off the helmet and starts whinging, I am in no way convinced he's competent enough to be a villain that can carry a trilogy. The First Order is equally inept and I've been given no visual evidence that any of them can manage a slushie stand, much less a galaxy-spanning Space Fascist Empire. They weren't horrible in TFA but in TLJ it was 2.5 hours of Keystone Cops that the movie expected me to take seriously.

Vader was an inexorable force. Kylo Ren is a petulant, annoying imp.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on March 21, 2018, 04:42:03 PM
I think JJ had ideas for Ren that required him to begin as a 'Wanna Be' Vader... and that the sidetrack to Rian derailed what he was trying to do.  Rian used the characters he was given in the story that he wanted to tell, ignoring the architecture in place that had been building towards a unified trilogy, and now we're going to get another film where we face a change in direction.  Hopefully JJ will do a better job of respecting Rian's foundation than Rian did of respecting JJ's.

Regardless - we'll just have to wait and see.  I think we wasted a lot of potential with these films.  I'd have loved to have seen Luke and Han share scenes again...


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on March 21, 2018, 04:53:00 PM
Hux and Ren became Colonel Sandurz and Dark Helmet.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on March 21, 2018, 04:56:32 PM
The idea of starting him as a wanna be was a good one. But the execution in tFA is bad. And in neither film is he allowed enough time or experience for him to believably grow into anything else.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Paelos on March 21, 2018, 05:18:02 PM
Kylo Ren just comes off as a angsty teen rather than a true villain. We're two movies in and in no way can I understand why The First Order has the power to do anything, it's run by idiots, for idiots.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: NowhereMan on March 21, 2018, 06:22:54 PM
Yeah TLJ got too hung up on deconstructing Star Wars Tropes while still telling a Star Wars story, hitting all the major plot beats in radically different ways. I think Ren as a Darth Vader wannabe, someone who's fundamentally a spoiled and emotionally damaged person is a good foundation for a villain. I agree with Khaldun in principle that he's a good model for a more... mature take on the Vader idea. The problem is that he still needs some level of menace. Show us his motivation is base human, show he has flaws and isn't sexy but if he's meant to be taken seriously as a villain show us he's really fucking dangerous. Wil e Coyote does not make for a compelling villain no matter how dark his intentions or how nuanced his character portrayal.

Hell I adore the idea of getting a KotOR II style SW movie but this really wasn't it. My opinion of it has actually gone down a bit as well, partly because I think visually it was so well done and it was a decent bit of spectacle.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Samwise on March 21, 2018, 06:37:14 PM
We're two movies in and in no way can I understand why The First Order has the power to do anything, it's run by idiots, for idiots.

 :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on March 21, 2018, 07:29:28 PM
Kylo Ren's most menacing moment was in the first few minutes of TFA where he stops the blaster bolts in mid-air while in his helmet. In the helmet, he had gravitas and cool, mainly because he seemed like an emotionless killer. Even through TFA, without his helmet he was less menacing but we got his emotional side. Unfortunately, from the moment Snoke made fun of his helmet, he regressed into pantomime brat and any character progression he might have had was lost in his general whining. Rather than humanizing him and expanding his character, he's become a one-note joke.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Hoax on March 21, 2018, 10:57:13 PM
Man fucking TFA was a bad movie, anything good I think about this pile was mainly down to at least it wasn't TFA.

But fuck this movie. I don't get why the entire "no i want to talk to the real empire ship captain" stall tactic into big sis heroically bombing them blahblah shit isn't up there was casino planet in terms of just plain stupid. BB8 plugging sparks with his 20 arms... just fuck the entire start of this one.

TFA the start was good, it was Star Wars. From the MF find on it was paint by numbers shoe on head retarded.

Rebel 1 the combat was good, it was Star Wars, in fact some of the ragtag band stuff was pretty Star Wars too. It was a Star Wars movie I guess but pointless be prequels are dumb.

Phantom Menace while not good was a Star Wars movie with Star Wars moments. Darth Maul was Kylo done right, I mean edgelord as fuck but still somewhat threatening. It had great SW music and a great saber fight. Its casino planet (pod racing!) was utter dogshit but at least it fit slightly better.

Essentially nothing in this movie was good. Luke being blown up by AT-AT's was probably the best bit?



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Velorath on March 22, 2018, 03:27:14 AM
You can rip all of these movies apart on story grounds, on characterization, on consistency, on what goes unexplained, etc., if you're so inclined. The question is, what inclines you? If you're someone who has liked some of these (rather than a person who hates all of them), I think Last Jedi rankles for reasons that are deeper than simple critique of story etc.

What inclines me is that we know that Disney is capable of doing big blockbuster movies that also have some soul to them. That's not to say everything they do is great, but they have a pretty good track record with the MCU movies despite having to crank out three a year now. Disney's general quality is one of the few bright sides to them buying up every major studio and franchise. Now maybe it's just a learning curve here, but they're about to be four movies deep into SW once Solo comes out and I'm still not seeing any indication that they've cracked the formula on how to make a good one yet. Reminding people that the original movies had major flaws also doesn't somehow make the new ones better.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Comstar on March 22, 2018, 04:16:54 AM
Kylo Ren just comes off as a angsty teen rather than a true villain. We're two movies in and in no way can I understand why The First Order has the power to do anything, it's run by idiots, for idiots.

Someone's going to make a tv series based on the last 2 years in US Politics and if you miss the first season no one will understand WTF happened to US Politics.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on March 22, 2018, 06:40:41 AM
tFA was half a good movie.

It is absolutely fine until they reach the green planet.

Even the han solo vs cthulu bit is fine.



But I just want them to do standalone movies in the original trilogy period. R1 benefits so much from the limits the existing story put on the writers.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on March 27, 2018, 12:17:28 PM
You can rip all of these movies apart on story grounds, on characterization, on consistency, on what goes unexplained, etc., if you're so inclined. The question is, what inclines you? If you're someone who has liked some of these (rather than a person who hates all of them), I think Last Jedi rankles for reasons that are deeper than simple critique of story etc.

What inclines me is that we know that Disney is capable of doing big blockbuster movies that also have some soul to them. That's not to say everything they do is great, but they have a pretty good track record with the MCU movies despite having to crank out three a year now. Disney's general quality is one of the few bright sides to them buying up every major studio and franchise. Now maybe it's just a learning curve here, but they're about to be four movies deep into SW once Solo comes out and I'm still not seeing any indication that they've cracked the formula on how to make a good one yet. Reminding people that the original movies had major flaws also doesn't somehow make the new ones better.

I think the big difference is that the MCU has Kevin Feige. He tightly controls what happens and there have been some movies that were misfires but it was all coherent and building towards a grand story. Star Wars doesn't have that. I think if JJ had stayed on we'd be in a much different place right now because he wrote an outline for the entire trilogy but Rian Johnson reportedly chucked almost everything he had for the sequel and went his own way. If this was Marvel Kevin Feige would've said "No, you can change some stuff but the general story thread needs to go HERE. You don't kill of Thanos halfway through the movie damn it. Rewrite that shit." Say what will you will about JJ but if he'd done this movie at least it'd be more coherent.

I certainly don't envy JJ's job now. I mean, how do you follow up this movie? The intended main villain is dead. Kylo is the leader of the First Order which I don't think was ever the intention. Luke is dead. Leah has to be killed offscreen. I mean, how do you handle that? Frankly, if I were Disney I'd have told Rian Johnson to cut the scene where Luke dies. With Carrie Fisher gone they absolutely need him to still be around though I suppose he can be a Force ghost. And if I were JJ I'd have a scene where we find out that Snoke isn't stupid and he has clones or was using a Force projection in the throne room or something.

And if I were Kathleen Kennedy I'd be giving serious thought to taking a firmer hand on Star Wars before a great white gloved hand grasps me and pulls me out of my job.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on March 27, 2018, 12:24:14 PM
I'm not sure Kathleen Kennedy can take a much firmer hand without choking the shit out of someone. See the whole replacing the directors thing with the Solo movie.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on March 27, 2018, 12:58:46 PM
I'm not sure Kathleen Kennedy can take a much firmer hand without choking the shit out of someone. See the whole replacing the directors thing with the Solo movie.

She's doing decent at maintaining a thematic consistency but she's not providing a vision for the current trilogy. At all. And that's why TLJ went the way it did is she gave Rian Johnson utterly free reign.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on March 27, 2018, 01:58:53 PM
I'm not sure Kathleen Kennedy can take a much firmer hand without choking the shit out of someone. See the whole replacing the directors thing with the Solo movie.

She's doing decent at maintaining a thematic consistency but she's not providing a vision for the current trilogy. At all. And that's why TLJ went the way it did is she gave Rian Johnson utterly free reign.

I liked the movie just fine but there being absolutely no plan for the trilogy and telling her she could do whatever she wanted IS in fact a horrible way to run things.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on March 27, 2018, 02:21:04 PM
Disney had a chance to print money with a fanbase frothing at the bit for any thing star wars related and took the cheapest route possible. Which wouldn't be a problem, sometimes less is more....except when called out on the supposed meat of this story, they double down.

They have a blanket defense for producing crap;

*half of because of the undiscerning nature of the star wars fanbase
*half because when faced with hard criticism they can hide behind "the force is female" skirt and watch knuckle draggers ram their dicks at that ball idiocy
*half because at the end of the day their motivation to put any quality beyond visual effects into these movies is zero and if they can hide behind novelty and competent direction and acting talent they'll be critical darlings for the foreseeable future. 

That's the problem with JJ Abrams Star Wars, the problem with Rian Johnson Star Wars and will be a problem with every star wars until enough of people stop feeding into their day 0 opening box office and their toys, books, and video games. Which won't happen so welcome to the shlock. And the major source of exasperation fans are having that want to feed into this Disney monstrosity is that their hoping that the "3rd" movie in a fucking trilogy will be course correction. Will be that moment when Disney apologizes and goes "no no for real guys this is the star wars you always wanted." This is like watching someones gf go "my i see something in my abusive boyfriend, i can change him" after two black eyes. 


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on March 27, 2018, 02:25:18 PM
The idea that people are watching this movies because they actually like and enjoy them is really beyond your grasp isn't it? could they be better? sure, anything could be. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with them.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on March 27, 2018, 02:52:24 PM
If you walked away hating The Last Jedi, please don't go see the next one. Vote with your wallet. It will save everyone some pain and suffering.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ironwood on March 27, 2018, 03:18:48 PM
Not as easy as that Chief.  Some of us have kids.

Gotta feed the beast.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on March 27, 2018, 04:35:18 PM
TLJ was amazing and y’all are crazy.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on March 27, 2018, 05:05:28 PM
^


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on March 27, 2018, 05:11:12 PM
Fair criticisms of the film:

* It wasn't traditional Star Wars.
* It ignored or abandoned things set up in TFA in favor of a new direction.
* It presented sides to the Star Wars universe previously unseen and that do not align with known elements.
* One half of the movie was a remake of 'The Chase'  set in space and that film sucked.

However, it was an enjoyable film on its own.

Regardless, I think I'd have been much happier with the trilogy had JJ made all three films.  TFA was far from perfect, but I'd rather have seen three films with similar flaws than a series made up of drastically waffling flaws.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on March 27, 2018, 05:47:46 PM
I'm not sure Kathleen Kennedy can take a much firmer hand without choking the shit out of someone. See the whole replacing the directors thing with the Solo movie.

She's doing decent at maintaining a thematic consistency but she's not providing a vision for the current trilogy. At all. And that's why TLJ went the way it did is she gave Rian Johnson utterly free reign.

I liked the movie just fine but there being absolutely no plan for the trilogy and telling her she could do whatever she wanted IS in fact a horrible way to run things.

The thing that is perplexing about this is that they didn't need to make anything into a trilogy.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ginaz on March 27, 2018, 06:16:29 PM
TLJ was amazing and y’all are crazy.

Half the movie was a dumb as fuck slow speed chase that seemingly could have been resolved by setting one of the ships on auto pilot and crashing it into the chasing ship.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on March 27, 2018, 08:25:58 PM
The idea that people are watching this movies because they actually like and enjoy them is really beyond your grasp isn't it? could they be better? sure, anything could be. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with them.

People are defiantly enjoying these movies. It's hard for me to grasp why star wars fans like these movies. And I'm not going to trash anyone personally taste, but there is a "why did you do that cry" coming from half the fanbase which is getting a "shut up and like it you god damn weeb" from the segment that are adoring this shlock. Even between the people who don't this these movies, there is those who genuinely liked TFA and are pissed off at Rian for shitting the bed or those who hated TFA and possible never going to like the main trilogy for being not star wars but is semi willing to give the in between movies a pass if their half decent.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on March 27, 2018, 08:32:10 PM
There are certainly people pissed off at the movie, there was literally zero chance there wouldn't be. But calling it half the fan base is massively over estimating them. They are like the people who complain about comic book changes in the MCU movies, a loud annoying faction that can and should be easily ignored while they continue to rack up billions making people happy.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on March 27, 2018, 09:00:34 PM
Excerpt these are the fans that actually want to buy your merch, and your dvds, and see your movie 3-5 times in theater. On that metric the new star wars suffers. The comic book weebs are already a marginal market and are not the driving force of the marvel movies. The stars wars geeks... not so much, not if the only thing you want to sell are just movies.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on March 27, 2018, 09:38:06 PM
There are certainly people pissed off at the movie, there was literally zero chance there wouldn't be. But calling it half the fan base is massively over estimating them. They are like the people who complain about comic book changes in the MCU movies, a loud annoying faction that can and should be easily ignored while they continue to rack up billions making people happy.

Based on what I've seen, I'd be more inclined to believe the takes on this movie are about 1/3 positive, 1/3 absolute hatred and that 1/3 that doesn't really have a firm opinion about anything. Rotten Tomatoes audience score is 48% liking the movie, with the average rating being about 3/5.

It ain't just the diehard Star Wars nerds that are hating on this thing.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Malakili on March 27, 2018, 09:38:28 PM
Here's my Hot Take as a pretty big star wars fan: The Last Jedi was a better movie than The Force Awakens.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on March 27, 2018, 09:41:16 PM
My hot take as a Star Wars fan who drifted away from the franchise because of the prequels (and was never what you'd consider a die hard Star Wars fan), TFA was a better Star Wars movie than TLJ, a more coherent story than TLJ, though TLJ had better cinematography on the whole.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on March 27, 2018, 10:13:00 PM
TFA was incredibly well made but unambitious and derivative. 

TLJ had some great ideas that were executed poorly.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: BobtheSomething on March 27, 2018, 10:43:32 PM
Here's my Hot Take as a pretty big star wars fan: The Last Jedi was a better movie than The Force Awakens.

That doesn't really say much.  I mean, I agree with you, but most likely from the wrong end, the dental surgery is better than eye surgery end.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Surlyboi on March 27, 2018, 10:47:06 PM
My hot take as a fanboy who still builds his own lightsabers but was disappointed in the prequels and saw some missed opportunities in TFA:

TLJ was spectacular.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ruvaldt on March 27, 2018, 10:57:23 PM
TLJ was amazing.

I'm looking forward to Rian Johnson's trilogy, whatever it is.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on March 27, 2018, 11:09:04 PM
Yeah, I am really not inclined to make apologies for it. Of course there's a few elements I'd change, but that's true even of ESB and ANH. I thought it was a great film and a great Star Wars film. I'm still puzzling over what it means that people have such sharply divided feelings about it. I think in a way that's good? A truly mediocre film--like The Force Awakens--would inspire largely mediocre feelings, as it did.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Velorath on March 27, 2018, 11:44:07 PM
I think the big difference is that the MCU has Kevin Feige. He tightly controls what happens and there have been some movies that were misfires but it was all coherent and building towards a grand story. Star Wars doesn't have that. I think if JJ had stayed on we'd be in a much different place right now because he wrote an outline for the entire trilogy but Rian Johnson reportedly chucked almost everything he had for the sequel and went his own way. If this was Marvel Kevin Feige would've said "No, you can change some stuff but the general story thread needs to go HERE. You don't kill of Thanos halfway through the movie damn it. Rewrite that shit." Say what will you will about JJ but if he'd done this movie at least it'd be more coherent.

Sure, but I also think maybe the most important thing Feige has going for him is that he has a good eye for very talented directors who weren't necessarily huge commercial successes prior to coming on board. I mean, giving the guys behind You, Me and Dupree the keys to the Captain America (and now the Avengers) franchise? Giving cult favorites like Waititi and Gunn a chance at massively budgeted movies? Even Whedon wasn't a sure thing since his biggest success had been having one of the more popular shows on one of the least popular networks.

Once things were restructured to give Feige more control, I think he's been pretty trusting with the directors in allowing them to make the movies they want. It seems like Waititi in particular was able to make Ragnarok a much different movie than it was originally intended so I don't know that a heavy hand is particularly necessary.

Another big difference might be that with Marvel you have 50-70+ years of history with some of the Marvel characters that can be mined to come up with some sort of emotional core that makes them work. If you try to mine SW's source material (the original trilogy) for what makes them work, you've got cool laser swords, the fact that Lucas was really good at practical effects even on a smallish budget, and Harrison Ford in his prime. Yes, I'm being reductive, but I do think as long as they keep trying to make sequels/spin-offs of the original movies they're hamstringing themselves. Guardians of the Galaxy is a better modern Star Wars movie than any of the recent Star Wars movies.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on March 28, 2018, 12:29:55 AM
Yeah, I am really not inclined to make apologies for it. Of course there's a few elements I'd change, but that's true even of ESB and ANH. I thought it was a great film and a great Star Wars film. I'm still puzzling over what it means that people have such sharply divided feelings about it. I think in a way that's good? A truly mediocre film--like The Force Awakens--would inspire largely mediocre feelings, as it did.


If TLJ had been Lukewarm (Badum) stuff like TFA, there would have been mild bitching but a lot of nodding as the same old same old was done. It amuses me a tad that with IPs like this, the folk that want it to continue to do the same shit over and over but cry about how nobody tries anything new will be the same ones that throw holy hell over a new direction.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on March 28, 2018, 01:21:27 AM
Remember Ragnarok was Thor 3.

Feige is selective about when directors can go off reservation. It seems like the MCU is still enforcing the formula with an iron fist with intro movies. Dr Strange, Ant Man, even GotG were well executed but ultimately formulaic.

R1 and tLJ were both more of a departure from any SW formula than most MCU films are from their template.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on March 28, 2018, 01:28:26 AM
My only real complaints about tLJ remains the slowmo chase and the opening act. Seems like BSG shows you how to do that chase properly, and the opening sequence wasn't as funny as they clearly believed.

Casino planet side quest I understand the complaints but didn't bother me much.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Velorath on March 28, 2018, 02:25:37 AM
Remember Ragnarok was Thor 3.

Feige is selective about when directors can go off reservation. It seems like the MCU is still enforcing the formula with an iron fist with intro movies. Dr Strange, Ant Man, even GotG were well executed but ultimately formulaic.

R1 and tLJ were both more of a departure from any SW formula than most MCU films are from their template.

Feige didn't get full control of Marvel Studios until 2015. Maybe it's simplistic to give him credit for everything good and to blame Perlmutter for most of the bad, like Age of Ultron being a bit of a mess, but from the bits and pieces that people have said that sounds like it's largely been the case. I'd disagree with GotG being formulaic except in their need to have the hero vs. villain battles at the ends of the movies but regardless there's nothing in those movies that feels like it was shoehorned in against Gunn's wishes.

Considering that even the SW spin-off movies are just fleshing out characters and storylines from the movies that came out 35-40 years ago, I'd say they aren't really that much of a departure from the SW template aside from the fact that they feel like movies from the modern era. I guess maybe Rogue One was a departure in that unlike other Star Wars movies it didn't even have likable characters and performances to fall back on.

I'm less concerned about a SW vs. MCU comparison though and more just a general feeling of "Disney is capable of doing better". Yeah, they put out some shit like the last several Pirates of the Caribbean movies, A Wrinkle in Time, and have been churning out uninspired live action adaptations of their animated stuff, but they're also capable of stuff like Coco, Moana, Inside Out, and Zootopia which are all-ages movies (which SW movies are generally claimed to be) and which actually have a soul to them. Hell, I'd probably be happier at this point of Disney let Pixar take a crack at an animated SW movie. I know Pixar isn't as consistent as they used to be but they can still knock it out of the park every now and again.

SW just feels like it's coasting off peoples' attachment to the franchise. I genuinely believe that if you took the story structure of TLJ and used it to make a generic, non-SW movie nobody would be defending the mess of narrative and pacing. There's no story here, it's just each of the main characters learning one valuable lesson which is fine if you're writing a 22 minute episode of a TV show but less so for a 2 1/2 hour movie where you have to wait 2 years for the follow-up.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on March 28, 2018, 04:44:37 AM
I think Disney are not so much coasting on SW as they are overawed by the IP.

For tFA they were obviously petrified of repeating the prequel errors and R1 would benefit from cutting about half the obvious OT references to make room for more of the story at hand.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on March 28, 2018, 10:31:42 AM
I look at it like this. Guardians of the Galaxy 1 was a HUGE risk, not only because the characters not only weren't household names or icons and they are weird as fuck, but mostly because James Gunn as a director is just an oddball. Even taking the Marvel formula, he managed to make both GOTG movies feel like a fresh take on the whole MCU. That's what TLJ should have been - giving an odd director (I mean, have you seen Brick?) the reins of a huge franchise and saying "do something different with it." And yes, I do consider the entire MCU one franchise because of how much it builds off the other films in the same way that Star Wars is now trying to be a huge franchise that branches out from the existing main story.

Gunn took the MCU and ran with it but stayed within parameters that never let you think that it didn't fit within the wider context.

As a "Star Wars" movie, TLJ didn't do that. It's risks and oddities didn't mesh with what had gone before. The casino scene is just the most jarring aspect of it, though the Poe Dameron phone call to the bridge of the Star Destroyer is another glaring example. It doesn't just go beyond subverting expectations - you still have to make those story beats work, and they didn't. As Velorath said, if this wasn't a Star Wars franchise movie, it would have been looked at like Valerian - an odd little movie that didn't gel together well.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: grebo on March 28, 2018, 11:31:02 AM
I think that from ANH Disney confirmed their hypothesis that there was no point in targeting Star Wars movies at adults.  They aimed TLJ squarely at kids, which only required cool action sequences and kid-friendly characters.  There was no requirement or expectation of making what an adult would call a good movie.  They tossed random Star Wars tropes in there as a joke, porkins exploding, etc, because that's what Star Wars is to them, a joke.  They paid a lot for the franchise, they just want to make money off it, they can do that with no risk by shoveling out garbage that kids will like.

There will never be another good Star Wars movie, except maybe by total accident.  If you loved TLJ, you probably also love Peppa Pig.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on March 28, 2018, 12:35:14 PM
Bunch of salty losers doom and glooming a franchise that keeps knocking it out of the park year after year up in here.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on March 28, 2018, 12:36:13 PM
I think that from ANH Disney confirmed their hypothesis that there was no point in targeting Star Wars movies at adults.  They aimed TLJ squarely at kids, which only required cool action sequences and kid-friendly characters.  There was no requirement or expectation of making what an adult would call a good movie.  They tossed random Star Wars tropes in there as a joke, porkins exploding, etc, because that's what Star Wars is to them, a joke.  They paid a lot for the franchise, they just want to make money off it, they can do that with no risk by shoveling out garbage that kids will like.

There will never be another good Star Wars movie, except maybe by total accident.  If you loved TLJ, you probably also love Peppa Pig.

You should fuck off.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on March 28, 2018, 12:41:20 PM
Unless they start catering to me this guys are totally fucked! meanwhile:
(http://i65.tinypic.com/16bgi1u.jpg)


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Velorath on March 28, 2018, 12:58:21 PM
It's like I'm seeing the force ghost of WUA.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: grebo on March 28, 2018, 01:27:05 PM
(http://i63.tinypic.com/fuz2ub.png)

Yay they made lots of money.  They also make lots of money with a cartoon mouse.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on March 28, 2018, 01:51:52 PM
Honest Question. Did you watch TLJ?

Cause I am failing to see how any of it, besides the horses, was made for kids.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on March 28, 2018, 02:00:23 PM
Are we saying Toy Story 3 was bad now? cause i will fight you.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: grebo on March 28, 2018, 02:28:15 PM
Are we saying Toy Story 3 was bad now? cause i will fight you.

I thought so.  It also made twice as much as the first one.  Was it twice as good?  I hope not.

Quote
Honest Question. Did you watch TLJ?

Cause I am failing to see how any of it, besides the horses, was made for kids.

Uh, ... what?  I can't even understand how you could think it wasn't.  I mean lol.  But whatever, this is page 20, everything's been said already.

Yes I sat through the whole thing and didn't walk out. I held up 2 middle fingers when Abrams name came up at the end.  I've never done that before.  I wanted to slam his face into a loaded toilet for 2 hours so he could have the same experience I just had. 

I don't understand how any grown human can be a Star Wars fan, watch that movie, and not feel like the retarded kid on the playground being knocked down by all the other kids.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on March 28, 2018, 02:53:12 PM
I don't blame Abrams at all for TLJ - his ideas were discarded and Rian pissed all over them.  He'd have made a flawed film, but this film was not filled with his flaws. 


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on March 28, 2018, 04:08:55 PM
The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our Star Wars,
But in ourselves, that we are bitter fanlings



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on March 28, 2018, 04:31:38 PM
Hmmm, this thread went downhill fast.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on March 28, 2018, 04:45:32 PM
So did this movie.  :rimshot:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on March 28, 2018, 04:52:06 PM
Hmmm, this thread went downhill fast.
I'm trying to decide whether you think 21 pages is fast, or if you just failed to note until now that this thread went downhill from the start... 


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: grebo on March 28, 2018, 06:10:28 PM
I don't blame Abrams at all for TLJ - his ideas were discarded and Rian pissed all over them.  He'd have made a flawed film, but this film was not filled with his flaws. 

I want to believe this.  Any concise articles out there?  Everything I'm finding isn't helpful.  Apologies if this was covered already.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on March 28, 2018, 07:18:28 PM
Hire a private investigator! No crime must go unpunished!


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on March 29, 2018, 11:05:47 AM
Well, there's the problem. He watched it in subtitles and can't read.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on March 29, 2018, 01:36:48 PM
...
I want to believe this.  Any concise articles out there?  Everything I'm finding isn't helpful.  Apologies if this was covered already.
3 seconds with Google.  3 seconds. 
https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/films/925958/Star-Wars-8-Rian-Johnson-JJ-Abrams-Last-Jedi-outline-plot-script-Daisy-Ridley (https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/films/925958/Star-Wars-8-Rian-Johnson-JJ-Abrams-Last-Jedi-outline-plot-script-Daisy-Ridley)


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Draegan on March 29, 2018, 07:43:43 PM
My hot take as a fanboy who still builds his own lightsabers but was disappointed in the prequels and saw some missed opportunities in TFA:

TLJ was spectacular.

This is my opinion except I now have lightsaber duels with my 3 years old son in a full kylo Ren costume, mask and all.

My son after seeing half of tlj is still asking me when is kylo going to fix his mask.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on March 30, 2018, 09:07:26 AM
(https://i.redditmedia.com/mrkJZFBkL3p_madjv5XwzfHbcrN--N9dW5GSfNgXduE.png?w=659&s=c64c26c6dbfa952696e15225b194a555)

The honest trailers guy seems to have noticed the over the top hatred for this movie among some people.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: grebo on March 30, 2018, 11:32:56 AM
...
I want to believe this.  Any concise articles out there?  Everything I'm finding isn't helpful.  Apologies if this was covered already.
3 seconds with Google.  3 seconds. 
https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/films/925958/Star-Wars-8-Rian-Johnson-JJ-Abrams-Last-Jedi-outline-plot-script-Daisy-Ridley (https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/films/925958/Star-Wars-8-Rian-Johnson-JJ-Abrams-Last-Jedi-outline-plot-script-Daisy-Ridley)

There are oceans of dreck written about TLJ.  Thanks for taking the 3 seconds.

Star Wars is more than just a random movie to some people.  It started, and continues to be a major part of a subcultural identity.  Proof that you're not alone, blah blah.  If the pope publicly apologized to Sam Harris for centuries of wrongheadedness, then parceled up the Vatican and donated it to various LGBT groups, you'd see a similar reaction in a different cultural subgroup.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on March 30, 2018, 12:15:23 PM
Oh for pity's sake. Let's get this much straight: being a Star Wars fan who thinks of it as a major part of a subcultural identity and thinks that everyone who feels that way must have the same feeling about the movie is as dumb as a Baptist thinking that every other kind of Christian is a heretic. I saw Star Wars as a young teenager in 1977 about 25 times in a movie theater, and it was precisely that kind of proof of non-aloneness, that sense of awe and excitement about seeing things I thought were strictly for me and a few other geeks up on screen and validated.

And I love The Last Jedi. So cut it the fuck out: don't like it, like it, but don't try to tell me that the only True Fans [tm] are those who have a particular opinion of the movie.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on March 30, 2018, 02:16:27 PM
Star Wars isn't an identity for me. I just like non lazy stories or at least ones that give me want I want out of said genre. What I can't stand is people using nostalgia and brand to coast on the low expectations of their audience. When people decide that "anything" is good enough you get repackaged garbage. We've seen this thought process infect triple A gaming, and the DC movies are basically run on executive desire to see money with zero effort required. I never want to signal to studio execs that "the bar is this low" because they'll shovel shit until people start tasting the brown bites past the nostalgia frosting.

Star Wars nerds have a right to be angry. They may not be all of them, or even most of them, but I hope its enough of them to tell Disney that if they want this fucking franchise to print money they need to stop acting like Warner Bros.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on March 30, 2018, 04:38:59 PM
I haven't noticed a fall off in the printing of money hats from Star Wars. But do carry on as if a few angry fans actually matter at the box office. That's the favorite threat of the fan who believes they're not being serviced exquisitely enough, and it almost never has anything to do with how anything performs in the actual marketplace.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ginaz on March 30, 2018, 06:06:29 PM
I haven't noticed a fall off in the printing of money hats from Star Wars. But do carry on as if a few angry fans actually matter at the box office. That's the favorite threat of the fan who believes they're not being serviced exquisitely enough, and it almost never has anything to do with how anything performs in the actual marketplace.



I haven't really liked any of the films since the original trilogy but I'll still go and see whatever they put out next.  I realize I'm not the target audience anymore and that's OK.  There's no point in bitching endlessly about something as trivial as Star Wars.  If I don't like it I won't talk about it.  I do the same thing for games.  I don't like DOTA2, Guild Wars 2, Pokemon or any of the Final Fantasy games but you won't see me continuously trashing them just because I think they're hot garbage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0la5DBtOVNI


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Velorath on March 30, 2018, 06:14:14 PM
I haven't noticed a fall off in the printing of money hats from Star Wars. But do carry on as if a few angry fans actually matter at the box office. That's the favorite threat of the fan who believes they're not being serviced exquisitely enough, and it almost never has anything to do with how anything performs in the actual marketplace.



If there's a fall off I don't think we'll really know about it until Episode IX. There's a sizable drop off between VII and VIII which is to be expected of course but how many people turn out for the opening weekend of IX will to some extent be a reflection of how many people liked VIII.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on March 30, 2018, 08:04:45 PM
Prediction: it won't matter one fucking bit what a bunch of angry menchildren think--and I'm a Star Wars manchild.

Where the falloff will come is if the million side movies like Solo suck--there's only so much Star Wars people can take, and if it really sucks, nobody, even the angry menchildren, will buy it. If you do a bad fighting game or a mediocre loot-box multiplayer game or a bad TV special, then it's bad and people won't come.

If you do something that's good in basic terms but that a particular subtribe of the tribe of fans think is sacrilege, you'll do fine. Because Protestantism is always big enough to survive a small movement of angry weirdos founding their own church; it's kind of the basic idea of Protestantism in the first place.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on March 30, 2018, 08:42:56 PM
Well Rogue One was probably the best of the bunch so far, Solo did seem to have problems during production but what they've shown so far looked good.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Velorath on March 30, 2018, 11:43:47 PM
Prediction: it won't matter one fucking bit what a bunch of angry menchildren think--and I'm a Star Wars manchild.

Where the falloff will come is if the million side movies like Solo suck--there's only so much Star Wars people can take, and if it really sucks, nobody, even the angry menchildren, will buy it. If you do a bad fighting game or a mediocre loot-box multiplayer game or a bad TV special, then it's bad and people won't come.

If you do something that's good in basic terms but that a particular subtribe of the tribe of fans think is sacrilege, you'll do fine. Because Protestantism is always big enough to survive a small movement of angry weirdos founding their own church; it's kind of the basic idea of Protestantism in the first place.

It's not a matter of what angry menchildren think, although since menchildren make up a lot of the repeat business I would suspect that for every one they alienate that potentially multiple ticket sales being lost.

I don't think it's a controversial statement to say that people who don't like a movie are less likely to watch the next one in a franchise. You can point to TLJ's box office grosses as an indication that people liked it but those grosses also include the money of people who bought a ticket that thought it was shit. I don't know that the spinoff grosses are or will be much of an indication of anything, but I absolutely think IX's opening weekend will be a reflection of what people thought about VIII for better or worse (and I'm not predicting that there's going to be a huge drop off because I clearly have no idea).


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ironwood on March 31, 2018, 07:08:36 AM
Well Rogue One was probably the best of the bunch so far, Solo did seem to have problems during production but what they've shown so far looked good.

There's no probably.  Great Star Wars movie.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on March 31, 2018, 09:24:21 AM
I think the core of the TLK backlash is the catfishing nature of the departures. They set stuff up in TFA that is discarded without respect in TLJ. Characters and plots were just taken away, similarly to how you'd feel if you met that online romance for the first time in person and discovered all the photos were fake. Even if TLJ was a different kind of attractive, it was not the attractive we had been set up to expect.

Snoke essentially violated Chekhov's Gun by going from what seemed to be a major villainous role to an easily discarded and pointless minor character.  The Star Wars phyics that we know were violated by allowing tracking through hyperspace, nonsensical space chase scenes, and a new megaweapon approach to lightspeed ramming that should have changed Star Wars battles a long time ago if it was that easy. JJ respected Lucas' storytelling in TFA, while TLJ adopts different sensibilities. Known characters speak with different voices in TLJ.

Taken separately, most of these departures are digestible. Collectively, they were just too much change from where we expected to go. In the end, I feel like Rian did to Star Wars what JJ did to Star Trek. They changed too much, too fast.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Nebu on March 31, 2018, 11:01:21 AM
Maybe this Star Wars episode wasn't meant for the old generation. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYyuo7gm-aQ)  Maybe it's just a fun movie for the younger crowd?




Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on March 31, 2018, 12:36:24 PM
Maybe this Star Wars episode wasn't meant for the old generation. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYyuo7gm-aQ)  Maybe it's just a fun movie for the younger crowd?



That's hilarious but the sad truth is that adult collectors are the ones keeping toy lines alive, kids mostly don't play with toys past the age of 4 or so they are too busy with ipads and videogames.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on March 31, 2018, 07:24:48 PM
Chekov's Gun and other cheap bullshit tropes of cultural criticism should never have gotten into the hands of people who don't have the sense to apply them with any self-awareness.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on March 31, 2018, 09:49:34 PM
If you apply Chekov's Gun to life, that's either one insanely busy or ridiculously empty life you got.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on April 01, 2018, 01:47:59 AM
I think the core of the TLK backlash is the catfishing nature of the departures. They set stuff up in TFA that is discarded without respect in TLJ. Characters and plots were just taken away, similarly to how you'd feel if you met that online romance for the first time in person and discovered all the photos were fake. Even if TLJ was a different kind of attractive, it was not the attractive we had been set up to expect.

Snoke essentially violated Chekhov's Gun by going from what seemed to be a major villainous role to an easily discarded and pointless minor character.  The Star Wars phyics that we know were violated by allowing tracking through hyperspace, nonsensical space chase scenes, and a new megaweapon approach to lightspeed ramming that should have changed Star Wars battles a long time ago if it was that easy. JJ respected Lucas' storytelling in TFA, while TLJ adopts different sensibilities. Known characters speak with different voices in TLJ.

Taken separately, most of these departures are digestible. Collectively, they were just too much change from where we expected to go. In the end, I feel like Rian did to Star Wars what JJ did to Star Trek. They changed too much, too fast.



1) very little was discarded from TFA. Like... I don’t even have a clue about what you’re referring to here

2) Snoke isn’t a “checkovs gun”.... and a checkovs gun isn’t something that can be “violated”. A checkovs gun is something that is unimportant(typically it’s a piece of the background)  and becomes important. Snoke was either always unimportant or was important and then became unimportant. Or was important and then was used for more import.

3) there is nothing wrong with adding new technology to new movies. You’re not violating physics.

4) the space chase was perfectly sensical. And if you can’t figure it out why then maybe you’re just dumb.

5) it’s literally explained right before the hyperspace attack that such things are not easy. They had an entire scene dedicated to telling you this right before the ramming.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: SurfD on April 01, 2018, 02:24:32 AM
5) it’s literally explained right before the hyperspace attack that such things are not easy. They had an entire scene dedicated to telling you this right before the ramming.
Really? Cause I saw the movie twice, and I don't recall anything I would consider a "scene" explaining anything.  It was literally about 5 seconds that consisted of "What are they doing?  Oh shit, they wouldn't!  KRAZAP!" and that was it.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Velorath on April 01, 2018, 02:53:53 AM
Hmmm, this thread went downhill fast.

To be fair it would still take 160 more pages to have generated as much debate here as the Star Wars Galaxies NGE.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on April 01, 2018, 03:39:04 AM
5) it’s literally explained right before the hyperspace attack that such things are not easy. They had an entire scene dedicated to telling you this right before the ramming.
Really? Cause I saw the movie twice, and I don't recall anything I would consider a "scene" explaining anything.  It was literally about 5 seconds that consisted of "What are they doing?  Oh shit, they wouldn't!  KRAZAP!" and that was it.

Gunnery Officer: Sir, they’re powering up their light speed drive and maneuvering to escape. Should we fire on them?
Hux: It’s empty, let it go
Gunnery Officer: ohhh shit
Hux: Ohhhh shit!

Like, they didn’t sit down and get out a fucking whiteboard and go over the pros and cons but if you aren’t illiterate it should have been pretty obvious.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: SurfD on April 01, 2018, 04:00:49 AM
5) it’s literally explained right before the hyperspace attack that such things are not easy. They had an entire scene dedicated to telling you this right before the ramming.
Really? Cause I saw the movie twice, and I don't recall anything I would consider a "scene" explaining anything.  It was literally about 5 seconds that consisted of "What are they doing?  Oh shit, they wouldn't!  KRAZAP!" and that was it.

Gunnery Officer: Sir, they’re powering up their light speed drive and maneuvering to escape. Should we fire on them?
Hux: It’s empty, let it go
Gunnery Officer: ohhh shit
Hux: Ohhhh shit!

Like, they didn’t sit down and get out a fucking whiteboard and go over the pros and cons but if you aren’t illiterate it should have been pretty obvious.
Right, except that your "scene" that was supposed to explain "something" literally explains nothing.  Refer back to my original comment to #5 on your point list, and we can maybe keep going around in circles here a few more times.  There was no explanation.  There was just "sudden hyperspace ramming attack".


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Hoax on April 01, 2018, 06:48:10 AM
imo everything with spaceships in TLJ was fuckstupid and terrible. Everything The New Order does and says is stupid. The comedy for kids bits are really jarringly bad and tonedeaf. The casino planet is awful and if you don't think so you are awful and that's with Benicio Del Toro probably being one of my favorite actors of all time?

Also they don't explain shit about the suicide attack being difficult to do or why nobody ever does it. Fuck off. Its literally a "why doesn't everyone do this all of the time if its this effective" thing and not a single line in the movie removes that question or even half addresses it.

I'm watching Solo in imax because Rogue 1 was fun and the casting looks great. I won't watch the next main trilogy Star Wars in theater unless the word of mouth is really really good from people who admit that the last two are dogshit. Star Wars will continue to print money maybe for our lifetimes or maybe for another decade who knows. It printing money will be used as evidence that its great even though we know that's piss poor evidence.

But this new trilogy looks like it'll reach the same level for me personally as the prequels. I won't even bother seeing all 3 in theaters and imo the prequels so far are better because Phantom Menace is so much better, pod racing and all, than TFA was. Yeah I said it.

Prequel 2 and this movie, advantage to TLJ but its hard to quantify the damage to the universe/lore that yes is a thing and is a deal. I'm going to have a hard time doing anything but roll my eyes every time we send a bunch of x-wings in a desperate low chance attack because why aren't they just suicide attacking this fleet / super weapon?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on April 01, 2018, 12:09:21 PM
Assholes have trouble with the word essentially, apparently,


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on April 01, 2018, 02:26:32 PM
Yes u guys must have liked the midichlorian scene. “But the movies never told me what exactly the force was and I cannot I fed anything on my own unless it’s explained to me in as if it were science”

Ships are expensive. damage is proportional to the mass of the ship which makes them more expensive. In order to carry out such an attack you have to be close enough to not hit hyperspace but far enough away to have enough velocity to do damage. In order to be at that range the target fleet would have to decide to not fire upon and destroy the hyperspace ram.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on April 01, 2018, 05:14:04 PM
Good thing they never were able to get a significantly sized ship near the second Deathstar or the Starkillerbase.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on April 01, 2018, 05:56:15 PM
People on this very website wondered out loud about the star destroyer wreck on jakku and why it hadn't destroyed  the planet. At least those people were half joking.

There are legitimate things to moan about in tLJ. I disagree with most of them. But 'why wasn't military tactic x not used in previous film y' is a fucking stupid question of the highest grade. It is only a remotely sensible complaint if you hate all of star wars for not being hard SF.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on April 01, 2018, 06:37:31 PM
Good thing they never were able to get a significantly sized ship near the second Deathstar or the Starkillerbase.

They were not. Like... did you watch RotJ?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Draegan on April 01, 2018, 07:25:03 PM
Maybe this Star Wars episode wasn't meant for the old generation. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYyuo7gm-aQ)  Maybe it's just a fun movie for the younger crowd?



That's hilarious but the sad truth is that adult collectors are the ones keeping toy lines alive, kids mostly don't play with toys past the age of 4 or so they are too busy with ipads and videogames.

Have you seen all the toys my 5 year old plays with? Do you have kids?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Malakili on April 01, 2018, 07:36:25 PM
Phantom Menace is so much better, pod racing and all, than TFA was. Yeah I said it.


 :uhrr:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on April 01, 2018, 08:46:41 PM
I'd pay 100 bucks to a Kickstarter for someone making a space opera that didn't require the audience to have any imagination or sense of general fun, with the requirement that it have 2x the infodump exposition for the action in every action scene and require the audience to read a general treatise on physics in the film universe prior to watching.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on April 01, 2018, 09:27:08 PM
Maybe this Star Wars episode wasn't meant for the old generation. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYyuo7gm-aQ)  Maybe it's just a fun movie for the younger crowd?



That's hilarious but the sad truth is that adult collectors are the ones keeping toy lines alive, kids mostly don't play with toys past the age of 4 or so they are too busy with ipads and videogames.

Have you seen all the toys my 5 year old plays with? Do you have kids?

Ok 5 or 6 still play with toys, but kids the age of the ones in the skit wouldn't be caught dead with them.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on April 01, 2018, 11:17:44 PM
Good thing they never were able to get a significantly sized ship near the second Deathstar or the Starkillerbase.

They were not. Like... did you watch RotJ?

They jumped a dang fleet adjacent to the thing.  Once the shield was down, the easiest way to destoy that thing would have been to jump a sizeable ship into it.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: SurfD on April 02, 2018, 02:12:21 AM
Yes u guys must have liked the midichlorian scene. “But the movies never told me what exactly the force was and I cannot I fed anything on my own unless it’s explained to me in as if it were science”
Actually, no.  I am pretty sure that the Midichlorian scene was almost universally shit on by pretty much every starwars fan out there.   It was basically the polar opposite of the Hyperspace Attack scene, in that it explained something that did not need that explanation.  In fact, the explanation straight up shit on all the built up mysticism surrounding the force that had been established by all the preceding movies.  Midichloreians should never have been a thing.  Conversely, hyperspace ramming attack pretty much demands an explanation because if such a thing is possible then things like Hyperspace high mass torpedoes as ship killer weapons should have been a thing from like, day one.  I mean, if you can put a hyperdrive on an X-wing, you can put a hyperdrive on a several thousand tonne slug of metal and just fling it at a star destroyer instead of launching a fleet of x-wings for it's cannons to chew up.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Draegan on April 03, 2018, 08:25:59 AM
The scene looked cool. That's all I care About.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on April 03, 2018, 09:03:53 AM
The scene looked cool. That's all I care About.

Yup, I am baffled that people want it to go any further than that or expect a detailed technical explanation. It looked cool, literally the main reason for absolutely everything in Star Wars. Why did the rebels have to fly along the death star trench to shoot a torpedo at an exhaust port? IT DOESN'T MATTER, IT WAS COOL.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on April 03, 2018, 09:28:01 AM
Why didn't the Death Star, being an expensive all-purpose done-in-one dominate-the-galaxy weapon, have whatever weapons it takes to blow away small fast snub fighters? I mean, fuck, it's not like the use of those fighters was a big surprise--they were a standard part of space warfare in that galaxy at least back to the late Republic. Why didn't the Death Star have a fucking SWARM of Tie Fighters instead of Darth Vader and his two wingmen? Did Han and Luke blow up the only other ones when escaping? Speaking of escaping, didn't those Tie Fighters that were supposed to let them go actually get pretty close to blowing up the Millennium Falcon? Why did Princess Leia take the Millennium Falcon back to Yavin IV when she suspected they were being tracked?

Why isn't the Empire better at searching a known smuggler's vessel, particularly given that Darth Vader sensed Obi-Wan? Han seems pretty careful about engaging the hyperdrive back then, why does he get as sloppy about it later without worry about the consequences? If Imperial Star Destroyers can't stop the Millennium Falcon blasting off from Mos Eisley, what's the point of having them hanging around Tatooine in the first place? It's not like Han uses any particular subterfuge.

Why does it take hours to go through hyperspace sometimes and minutes other times, even if we can see on the maps that SW creators have made that the locations involved are sometimes half or more of the galaxy's breadth (in either case)? If all locations in the galaxy are effectively only minutes apart, why is anything "remote"? Why can't the Empire, the Rebellion, the First Order, etc., effectively assemble their entire fleet resources at a single location without any prior planning or coordination given that all locations are only minutes away and all communications are instantaneous? What would be the risk in concentrating your entire military capacity in a single location within fifteen minutes of getting the alert if you could be somewhere else a few hours later?

Are there any energetic or economic limitations on fleet travel? TLJ is the first time we've ever really heard anyone worrying about running out of fuel. Fuel supplies must be nearly infinite--we've never heard anyone worry about having a fleet that's too big or a fleet that's hard to supply.

------------

SW's worldbuilding is in the look of things, the feel of it--and in cool things like lightsabers. If you want it to work in a way that's more coherent, consistent, etc., you're in the wrong universe altogether. Best you give up and disavow all of the films. Go watch the Expanse--that's pretty consistently thought out.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: BobtheSomething on April 03, 2018, 09:59:32 AM
The scene looked cool. That's all I care About.

Some people have higher standards.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on April 03, 2018, 10:07:01 AM
The scene looked cool. That's all I care About.

Some people have higher standards.

Some people are dumb twats watching the wrong series then.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sir T on April 03, 2018, 10:11:26 AM
Why didn't the Death Star, being an expensive all-purpose done-in-one dominate-the-galaxy weapon, have whatever weapons it takes to blow away small fast snub fighters?

They explain that away by one sentence saying its defenses were geared around fending off a major assault. So it had big Battleship guns. Which makes sense if you are used to looking  at real world vessels in WW2 that had loads of big stonking guns but fuck all anti-aircraft weapons. No excuse for not having 200 Tie Fighters however, or at least having a couple of Star Destroyers stuffed with them as escorts. The only reason for the trench shit is to shelter yourself from the guns on the surface.

In one of the books they jumped a hundred X-wings onto a Star Destroyer and launched 200 Torps at it. Its guns took out 100 of the torps but the other 100 blew it apart. There is an awful lot of Sci fi that makes zero sense from a Tactics point of view.

Also, I remember the years long attempts on this forum to try and pretend the prequels were not a load of horseshit. So I am naturally suspicious of all attempts to cannonise these movies. No I haven't seen them, because I don't want to. If you enjoyed them, cool, but when it comes to Star Wars and Trek I don't believe a word of anything said online anymore.

*Cries on his copy of the original unedited ESB.*


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Gimfain on April 03, 2018, 11:23:26 AM
Watched the movie yesterday, it wasn't good and I can't be arsed about star wars anymore.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on April 03, 2018, 11:50:07 AM
The death star was also being sabotaged by its own engineers - maybe they removed most of the defences from the trench.

Maybe in 2058 at the release of Star Wars Story XX we'll discover Snoke's chief engineer secretly built a flaw into the 'stop dudes hyperjumping into me box' on the Snoke Destroyer so it fails at the start of the third act. Maybe a plucky gang of bothans sneaked this information out to cgi Laura Dern just before tLJ begins.

There you go I fixed Star Wars for you - no need to thank me.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on April 03, 2018, 01:35:12 PM
I mean, if you want to work at it even a little, it's not hard:

a) ramming is a thing in the SW universe; we've seen ships badly damaged and destroyed by both accidental and purposeful collisions. One would have to infer that the major reason the Rebellion doesn't just send kamikaze pilots for every attack is simultaneously a moral objection to doing so and that competent pilots don't grow on trees--it's made clear multiple times that not just anyone can jump in an X-Wing and fly it successfully

b) hyperspace jumps are said repeatedly to be dangerous and that the dangers involved are specifically about transitioning out of hyperspace into physical objects; "that would end your trip real quick" seems to imply that it's the hyperjumping ship that's in danger, but what if it's a thing you avoid because it may also badly damage the object that you transition into?

c) capital ships for the Rebellion/Resistance are implied to be extremely precious and indispensible to its military strategy. We don't know if the New Republic had capital ships or where they might be after the destruction of their capital, but the Resistance is clearly still built around the idea of potentially challenging the First Order fleet head-to-head. So in both cases where military commanders might have used the "crash a really big ship into a really big ship at hyperspeed" tactic, the weaker force didn't have any ships to spare. This includes capital ship-sized dummy objects--it's clearly the scale of the ship that's the first and foremost issue. Just as it would be for the US military, for example, if we said: build an aircraft carrier only just make it an engine and the metal, don't build an elaborate control room, guns, berths and a galley for the crew, etc. That doesn't make a ship the size of an aircraft carrier all that much cheaper to build, it's the metal for the frame and the internal structure and the engine that's the expensive thing.

The Imperial Navy/First Order seems to have ships to spare, so they could arguably throw suicide destroyers at any enemy. But maybe they don't have ships to spare--maybe all those ships are needed in order to retain an iron grip on all those star systems--and maybe the support of the military is the major source of political support for the Emperor/Supreme Leader Snoke. Also they don't seem to be quite as fast as the Rebellion/Resistance capital ships, and arguably being fast enough to get in close ramming range is also necessary.

I mean, if you really want to work your way through it, you can. If you don't want to, you're either lazy or you never liked Star Wars much in the first place.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on April 03, 2018, 02:28:21 PM
The rebels are out of money and low on people. That's not really hard to discern. Resources are precious, and they got squished in TLJ, just like any similar rebellion would in the real world.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sir T on April 03, 2018, 02:54:04 PM
I cared enough at one time to check whether the Super Star Destroyer was 8 or 11 times as long as a stander SD. It's 8, by the way. The whole 11 times was based on a misprint in some book, that SW nuts ran with because somehow only 8 times longer was insufficiently awesome.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Trippy on April 03, 2018, 02:58:05 PM
Or maybe somebody was a Spinal Tap fan.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: BobtheSomething on April 03, 2018, 03:11:28 PM
I cared enough at one time to check whether the Super Star Destroyer was 8 or 11 times as long as a stander SD. It's 8, by the way. The whole 11 times was based on a misprint in some book, that SW nuts ran with because somehow only 8 times longer was insufficiently awesome.

I remember reading a book about the model making and one of the designers stated that they were making the Star Destroyers a mile long, the super star destroyers ten miles long, the Death Star 100 miles across and the second one 500 miles.  They really seemed to like nice, round numbers.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on April 03, 2018, 04:24:31 PM
Which would be an amazing feat. The raw materials alone would be staggering, let alone the design and functionality working well enough that service maintenance would be possible.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on April 03, 2018, 04:49:36 PM
Why didn't the Death Star have a fucking SWARM of Tie Fighters instead of Darth Vader and his two wingmen? Did Han and Luke blow up the only other ones when escaping? Speaking of escaping, didn't those Tie Fighters that were supposed to let them go actually get pretty close to blowing up the Millennium Falcon? Why did Princess Leia take the Millennium Falcon back to Yavin IV when she suspected they were being tracked?


This one has actually been explained in one of the novels based on, I think, a scene that was scripted but either not filmed or edited out. It basically boils down to Tarkin going "They have 30 ships? Against this station? Screw it, let the guns take them out. I'm not wasting fighters on them." Tarkin was incredibly arrogant about how powerful the Death Star was.

Vader explicitly ordered his own personal squadron to go after them which is what that small scene in the hallway is all about.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on April 03, 2018, 05:28:53 PM
The rebels are out of money and low on people. That's not really hard to discern. Resources are precious, and they got squished in TLJ, just like any similar rebellion would in the real world.
Which is why jumping one asteroid with an engine on it into the Star Destroyer, rather than assaulting it witha fleet that gets blown to its in a lengthy battle, would have made more sense.

Trying to excuse the logic failure with bad hypothesis is just ... sad.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on April 03, 2018, 05:51:55 PM
So how exactly would you get an asteroid with enough mass close enough to pull off such a maneuver without it getting immediately blasted into dust?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Draegan on April 03, 2018, 05:56:29 PM
Star Wars tech fights are dumber than star trek tech fights.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Trippy on April 03, 2018, 06:00:56 PM
It has a hyperdrive too, duh! Just take it out of hyperspace right next to the Star Destroyer. Or heck you don't even need to take it out of hyperspace. Just plot a hyperspace course straight through the Star Destroyer. Hmm....


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on April 03, 2018, 06:18:04 PM
A lot of the bigger ships in the SW universe have shapes that seem to privilege aerodynamics despite that not being an issue ostensibly, right? If you've got the engines, they can move any mass, right? Except well, the ramming/hyperspace maneuver seems to depend on going fast enough prior to hyperspace and getting close enough prior to hyperspace to a big ship to do the damage, so you know, maybe a big rock with an engine can't do the trick.

Seriously, don't fucking mix mass drivers with a science fantasy universe. You want to wank about mass drivers, don't watch the beloved ESB, which has asteroids doing shit that no universe with even remotely respectable astrophysics would allow. You want a mass driver universe, go watch Babylon 5 or The Expanse, where it makes marginal sense.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on April 03, 2018, 07:18:23 PM

Trying to excuse the logic failure with bad hypothesis is just ... sad.

Needing a technical explanation for a cool star wars scene is sad.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on April 04, 2018, 01:31:57 AM
The rebels are out of money and low on people. That's not really hard to discern. Resources are precious, and they got squished in TLJ, just like any similar rebellion would in the real world.
Which is why jumping one asteroid with an engine on it into the Star Destroyer, rather than assaulting it witha fleet that gets blown to its in a lengthy battle, would have made more sense.

Trying to excuse the logic failure with bad hypothesis is just ... sad.

Noop. Limited fucking resources. That drive could be better used on an actual ship rather than a throwaway single target eliminator. Just because you want a carrier doesn't mean you have the vespene gas.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on April 04, 2018, 03:00:08 AM
Christ, this thread.  Is it really so hard for you guys to understand that this just felt out of place?  It was taking Hard Sci-if and injecting it into a very soft sci-fi setting.  On top of that, it was a lazy Deus Ex way out of a problem they pulled out of their ass that went against all previously established physics in the world, keeping on the theme this entire script was lazy as fuck asshalf shit I’d expect from network TV.

Yet you guys seem intent of having arguments with voices in your head.  Khaldun has written multiple gigantic posts about why using suicide ships would not be a good tactic, even though nobody is calling for that.  So, no idea whats going on there.

Then this
Needing a technical explanation for a cool star wars scene is sad.
When the entire argument is how dumb it is to bring in hard sci-fi technical shit into Star Wars, which you guys are doing endlessly to defend this scene, again missing the point of why it was off.
Noop. Limited fucking resources. That drive could be better used on an actual ship rather than a throwaway single target eliminator. Just because you want a carrier doesn't mean you have the vespene gas.
And then things like this that make me wonder if we really did watch the same movie.  The ship crash took out a massive hunk of their fleet, not a single target.  Ignore the damage to the mothership, 10-15 Star destroyers went down with it.  That ship never in its lifetime would destroy that many ships, so that was the most value possible for using that hyper drive.  Again, if it had just ramed into the giant ship, took a hunk of it out in a big cool explosion, that would have been totally cool!  But instead, they needed it to magically wipe out most of the fleet so they could Deus Ex their way into an escape, breaking immersion heavily in the process.

I just find it amazing that there is such a hard fight to defend every. Single. Aspect. Of this movie.  For me it was a death by a thousand cuts.  Lots of dumb little things that added up to a big mess.  Yet even the most minor of those criticisms I’m seeing you guys defend unto the death.  This is mind boggling.  I can’t think of any movies I loved that I would put this much effort into defending.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Rishathra on April 04, 2018, 09:01:12 AM
As someone who enjoyed this movie, I also have to say, "Christ, this thread."  There's that poster whose name is shorthand for 'breaking up quotes into a thousand pieces and arguing the points of every one,' but I forgot the name.  I will admit that I want to do it to your post, Teleku.  Short version:  all the complaints you are making about the people defending this movie, I have the same about people attacking this movie.

Okay, I'm going to do one, just one.  Sorry.

Quote from: Teleku
Is it really so hard for you guys to understand that this just felt out of place?  It was taking Hard Sci-if and injecting it into a very soft sci-fi setting.

The movie isn't doing that.  YOU are doing that.  (I was about to launch into a super-detailed rant that said the same thing, but used more words.  I stopped myself about three sentences in.)

Here is where EVERYONE should have left it.

"Eh, that scene felt off to me.  It brings up certain technical issues that don't jive with the universe."
"Eh, I can think of a couple of ways that it would make sense, but they are a bit of a stretch, and I can see why you would have an issue with it.  I thought it had enough Rule of Cool to counteract the issue."
"Eh, fair enough."
"Fair enough."
* both of us take a sip off our pint *
"So, tell me more Bangkok stories."


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on April 04, 2018, 09:35:05 AM
So how exactly would you get an asteroid with enough mass close enough to pull off such a maneuver without it getting immediately blasted into dust?

You hitch it to an African swallow.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sir T on April 04, 2018, 09:37:19 AM
Is that a European or... oh.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on April 04, 2018, 09:52:12 AM
I'm just pointing out that if someone really really needs an explanation beyond "that was cool", they can come up with it if they're willing to do a bit of nerdwork. As nerds and geeks famously do. If you don't want to, it's not the fault of Star Wars or Rian Johnson or whatever. It's that you don't want to, for whatever reason.

I can see people saying, "That's not my Luke Skywalker". It isn't quite what I expected either, but it makes a ton of sense to me and makes him a much more interesting character to me. It ages him in a way that feels more evocative than just "boyish hero becomes wise old sage". I can see people saying, "I'm not sure I liked Leia using the Force like that." I can see people saying, "I didn't care for some of the humor". I totally see people saying, "I didn't like the casino planet sidequest, it was clumsy". I don't agree, except on the last one, and even there I understand narratively what was going on with that.

I find the "well, it was visually and narratively cool to crash the capital ship into Snoke's flagship, but I hate it because the entire Star Wars world should routinely feature suicide hyperspeed ramming for this to be credible" really really sad. That's looking for a reason to hate something rather than looking for a way to explain something cool as fitting into the established universe.

I find the "wait where's the backstory on Snoke, wait he was supposed to be important" really really sad. I find the "wait where's the conventionally evil dark-suited dangerous villain that I'm used to" really really sad. I find the "wait why can't Poe be a conventional dashing scoundrel who saves the day" really really sad. etc.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on April 04, 2018, 09:59:51 AM
When the entire argument is how dumb it is to bring in hard sci-fi technical shit into Star Wars, which you guys are doing endlessly to defend this scene, again missing the point of why it was off.

The entire argument is that it doesn't need explaining, none of the cool looking bullshit in any star wars movie has ever needed explaining and the fact that so many people are going insane over this particular movie is entirely about them and not any inherent flaws the movie might or might not have.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on April 04, 2018, 10:38:50 AM
All the coolshit in star wars was consistent with the themes and tone established in the previous movies. You don't watch gundam and suddenly the power rangers are fighting godzillas. Is it cool yes? Does it belong? No. So what people are really articulating is that your "cool" thing doesn't matter if it doesn't belong in star wars. Because consistency matters. Or it doesn't and we're all five year old pretending the lone ranger and spider man are in the same universe.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on April 04, 2018, 10:49:30 AM
That's just you trying to justify why this movie gets held up to a massively different standard.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: BobtheSomething on April 04, 2018, 11:07:31 AM
This reminds me a lot of the people defending Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull.  "The original movies did it!"  "It's for kids!"  "You don't understand storytelling!"  "You want everything explained!"

As someone who liked TLJ enough to see it three times in the theater and buy it on amazon, I will never understand the defenders who can't see the film's flaws or won't even try to understand the opposing point of view.  It's one thing to acknowledge the opposition's points and disagree/love the film anyway, but some of you are just denying reality.  I'll side with the people who can't get past the minor nitpicks over the people who dismiss the entire idea that consistency of setting matters.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: satael on April 04, 2018, 11:17:28 AM
I think Crystal Skull is a good comparison. You can start by having Indiana steal an idol and running from a rolling boulder or you can have him hiding from a nuke in a fridge. Both make no sense but one is a classic while the other is not (and the "hold for the general"-shtick is certainly the latter type in my opinion).


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on April 04, 2018, 11:30:46 AM
Consistency of setting absolutely matters.

Using a hyperdrive ramming to blow up another ship is not the level of consistency that matters. That's the nitpick level.

Consistency of setting is something like:

You're watching Lord of the Rings and suddenly Aragorn starts worrying about complicated factional in-fighting within Gondor that involves disagreements about the rights of bourgeois merchants in relationship to taxation levels set by the lower ministerial bureaucracy in the smaller cities west of Minas Tirith.

You're watching Fury Road and suddenly jet fighters crewed by highly trained pilots drop small atomic weapons on all of the cars except for the truck that Max and the women are in and they drive off into the sunset towards a fully-functioning city that has all the amenities of civilization.

You're watching Pacific Rim and suddenly superpowered psychic mutants show up and insta-kill all the mechs and the kaiju and the world is restored to peace.

You're watching Beauty and the Beast and suddenly Belle gets an invitation for a fully-paid scholarship at a university and realizes that the Beast is just an immature teenager who needs a mother, not a lover, and so packs up her dad and hops in a carriage and leaves everybody behind.

You're watching Star Wars and suddenly Princess Leia announces that the Resistance is going to follow the Prime Directive and stop interfering with more primitive cultures. And also that the Force is not midichloreans or the lifeforce of the galaxy but is actually small nanobots randomly seeded by a progenitor race several billion years ago.

==============

There are also complaints you can make about all sorts of things that aren't best put as "consistency" but are simply bad narrative moves. Arguably the nuke-fridge moment is like that.

In some sense the traps in the beginning of Raiders of the Lost Ark are just as physically improbable as surviving a nuke by hiding in a fridge--preindustrial technology that involves that kind of sensitivity to the weight of an object? A stone pillar that descends and destroys an entire underground complex? A perfectly round multiton boulder that's got a diameter of 20 meters or more on a track where it has been poised to roll down for centuries, but where nothing has decayed to the point of the trap collapsing? Or how about a Lost Ark that can melt Nazis with the will of God if they're dumb enough to open it, but where that same God is completely ignoring the murder of millions of his chosen people?

It's easier to say that the nuke-fridge is just bad storytelling without worrying about whether it's physically probable or inconsistent with the physical improbabilities that practically define the entire series. Or to think about consistency in terms of *tonality*.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on April 04, 2018, 04:36:11 PM
"wait why can't Poe be a conventional dashing scoundrel who saves the day" really really sad. etc.

I've always found this complaint especially weird, both now and around tFA, because Poe is fairly obviously the Princess Leia analogue.

I don't agree btw, that star wars should be held purely to the 'is it cool' standard. It also has to make sense in story/character terms - and Admiral Dern suiciding the cruiser did make story sense. That is what the 'opera' bit means in space opera.

But it doesn't ever have to make any tactical or scientific sense whatsoever. Or we'd have turned off when parsecs were a measure of time, and when the trench run was ridiculous, and when the space geography in Empire makes no sense whatsoever, and when ewoks.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Teleku on April 04, 2018, 10:39:27 PM
When the entire argument is how dumb it is to bring in hard sci-fi technical shit into Star Wars, which you guys are doing endlessly to defend this scene, again missing the point of why it was off.

The entire argument is that it doesn't need explaining, none of the cool looking bullshit in any star wars movie has ever needed explaining and the fact that so many people are going insane over this particular movie is entirely about them and not any inherent flaws the movie might or might not have.
Maybe, possibly, instead of just going with the "it's every single other person that's crazy, I'm not the one that's crazy" argument, you could think on why this scene and others like it struck so many people the wrong way.  People who've watched all the Star Wars up to this point, and have not had this sort of reaction so something like that till now.  It's not because we are holding it to a different standard, its because we're holding it to the same standard.  It stood out to everybody.  You can disagree with that and like it for your own reasons, that's fine.  But you have to acknowledge that there is some reason why this scene, and many others like it, have stood out so much to long standing fans as inherent flaws in the movie.  And just blaming it on people magically attacking this movie specifically for some reason makes no sense. 

The Force Awakens and Rogue One had little issues you could nit pick (well in the case of TFA, some big ones), but they did not get the level of backlash this movie did for breaking in world consistency, so its not a matter of nostalgia and length of time between the last batch of movies.

Also, see Rogue one for battlefield ship ramming done right.   :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on April 04, 2018, 11:53:15 PM
parsecs were a measure of time

This one's been explained fairly well I thought.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: SurfD on April 04, 2018, 11:53:52 PM
I think Crystal Skull is a good comparison. You can start by having Indiana steal an idol and running from a rolling boulder or you can have him hiding from a nuke in a fridge. Both make no sense but one is a classic while the other is not (and the "hold for the general"-shtick is certainly the latter type in my opinion).
except that running from a rolling boulder is an orders of magnitude more believable kind of "makes no sense" than "Hiding from a Nuke in a Fridge".   It is slightly plausible that a physically fit adventurer type could maybe outrun a giant rolling rock.  It is literally impossible to believe that you wouldn't be scraping Dr Jones out of the inside of that fridge with a spatula after watching that scene.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sky on April 04, 2018, 11:54:32 PM
I'ma be honest here: I love this movie more with every page this thread generates.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: BobtheSomething on April 05, 2018, 12:35:41 AM
Consistency of setting absolutely matters.

Using a hyperdrive ramming to blow up another ship is not the level of consistency that matters. That's the nitpick level.

Consistency of setting is something like:

You're watching Lord of the Rings and suddenly Aragorn starts worrying about complicated factional in-fighting within Gondor that involves disagreements about the rights of bourgeois merchants in relationship to taxation levels set by the lower ministerial bureaucracy in the smaller cities west of Minas Tirith.

You're watching Fury Road and suddenly jet fighters crewed by highly trained pilots drop small atomic weapons on all of the cars except for the truck that Max and the women are in and they drive off into the sunset towards a fully-functioning city that has all the amenities of civilization.

You're watching Pacific Rim and suddenly superpowered psychic mutants show up and insta-kill all the mechs and the kaiju and the world is restored to peace.

You're watching Beauty and the Beast and suddenly Belle gets an invitation for a fully-paid scholarship at a university and realizes that the Beast is just an immature teenager who needs a mother, not a lover, and so packs up her dad and hops in a carriage and leaves everybody behind.

You're watching Star Wars and suddenly Princess Leia announces that the Resistance is going to follow the Prime Directive and stop interfering with more primitive cultures. And also that the Force is not midichloreans or the lifeforce of the galaxy but is actually small nanobots randomly seeded by a progenitor race several billion years ago.

==============

There are also complaints you can make about all sorts of things that aren't best put as "consistency" but are simply bad narrative moves. Arguably the nuke-fridge moment is like that.

In some sense the traps in the beginning of Raiders of the Lost Ark are just as physically improbable as surviving a nuke by hiding in a fridge--preindustrial technology that involves that kind of sensitivity to the weight of an object? A stone pillar that descends and destroys an entire underground complex? A perfectly round multiton boulder that's got a diameter of 20 meters or more on a track where it has been poised to roll down for centuries, but where nothing has decayed to the point of the trap collapsing? Or how about a Lost Ark that can melt Nazis with the will of God if they're dumb enough to open it, but where that same God is completely ignoring the murder of millions of his chosen people?

It's easier to say that the nuke-fridge is just bad storytelling without worrying about whether it's physically probable or inconsistent with the physical improbabilities that practically define the entire series. Or to think about consistency in terms of *tonality*.


And hyperspace ramming is bad storytelling because it is a solution to a problem that would and should have been used before on screen.  The fact that no one previously used this obvious solution either means it was never really viable (the natural assumption based on all previous space battles and requiring an explanation for why it suddenly is viable) or all the previous characters were unable to grasp the obvious.   

To use Pacific Rim, it's like the scene where Gypsy Danger's crew remembered it hey had a sword, only if Pacific Rim was the eighth film and Gypsy Danger had never been upgraded, implying the unused sword had always been there.

Heck, Pacific Rim Uprising managed a Holdo-style fake-out better than TLJ, which is kind of embarrassing. 



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on April 05, 2018, 12:42:16 AM
Out of interest would people still have issues if the ramming had happened without hyperdrive involvement?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: SurfD on April 05, 2018, 12:52:43 AM
Out of interest would people still have issues if the ramming had happened without hyperdrive involvement?
no.  Cause nobody had any problem at all with the ramming scene in Rogue One.  Which predates TLJ by a year.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: BobtheSomething on April 05, 2018, 01:57:03 AM
Out of interest would people still have issues if the ramming had happened without hyperdrive involvement?

Fewer issues.  It really was a culmination of incompetence from every quarter, so there would always be issues with how stupid Hux was or why didn't Holdo use an autopilot, or why did she not even admit there was a plan, or why did Poe give out sensitive info, or whatever, but at least it wouldn't retroactively make Ackbar or Leia seem stupid.   

I mean, how many people complained about the ramming in Rogue 1.  Fewer, right?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on April 05, 2018, 04:16:17 AM

Maybe, possibly, instead of just going with the "it's every single other person that's crazy, I'm not the one that's crazy" argument, you could think on why this scene and others like it struck so many people the wrong way. 

But it's actually "It's the tiny irrelevant minority that's crazy, not the tens of millions who enjoyed the movie".


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on April 05, 2018, 06:30:52 AM
Seriously. This is the same thing that aggrieved fans do all the time in message boards. If I had a nickel for every time I've read a particular small faction of players in an MMO declare that the latest change to a class is OBVIOUSLY the OBJECTIVELY WORST THING EVER and EVERYONE is AGAINST IT and ABOUT TO CANCEL THEIR SUBSCRIPTION and JUST WAIT UNTIL NEXT MONTH'S SUB FIGURES COME OUT YOU'LL SEE, I'd be a rich man. In this case, of course, people are draping their own idiosyncratic reaction to various things with the claim that they and only they have been true Star Wars fans since even before 1977, that they actually dreamed of the Platonically-perfect version of Star Wars even before the movie came out, unlike all these latter-day half-fans who clearly don't understand what Star Wars really is.

Some of you didn't like it. That's fine. Some of what you didn't like is a significant departure from the obvious, lowest-common-denominator expectation about how characters would develop. I get that. I was also spinning theories about how Rey would be Obi-Wan Kenobi's grand-daughter and thinking myself very clever; I was also expecting Luke to have become the conventional wise old sage. But that's what I love most about the film: it did things I didn't expect that were exciting and plausible and made me realize what a cramped narrative space Star Wars was becoming. A protagonist who isn't biologically related to everyone else? A story that isn't just the story of one family? Great! A hero who discovers that a pure spirit and a quick hand with a lightsaber aren't enough by themselves to save the whole galaxy and who is actually bitter and self-loathing about it? Great! That's a new turn, an emotionally plausible one, that makes a conventional pulp hero into something richer and more interesting. A derring-do pilot whose derring-do involves an inordinate amount of unwarranted self-confidence and who doesn't get his vanity validated by the script? That's a nice touch. A desperate situation where there's no way to win, only to survive, but which reveals that resistance might be more than having more pew-pew than the bad guys? Good! A mystical Force made more mysterious once again? A bad guy who isn't just a reprise of the last bad guy? An ultimate evil guy who turns out to be a red herring? All fun!

I can see you preferring the version you had in your head instead. Different strokes. But I would still say you could appreciate why many of us just as true fans of the series love all those moves.

I can see not liking the humor. I liked it mostly but a few things didn't quite work for me. I can see being annoyed by the structure of the plot: the chase could have been much smarter, the casino planet sidequest better handled. Those are enough to interfere with a complete enjoyment of the movie if they got under your skin more than they did for me.

I cannot see getting nerd-obsessed with something like "why haven't they done hyperdrive ramming before?" and letting that be a major part of your dislike.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ironwood on April 05, 2018, 07:25:59 AM
The bigger issue is not really  'why haven't they done that before', more, for me, why the hell didn't they do that on the first place.  Forget your daft rant against nowt for a second :  The film wasn't even consistent  in and of itself.


Bad film was bad dude. Soooo boring.   even the awordfight we should have loved was just pretty silly really, so much so that it actually works better to  'Toxic' by Spiers.

Bad.

The rest of the stuff you mention?  Big who cares.

I mean, sure if you liked it, shine on. But don't try and say its objectively a really good film or even a really good Star Wars film, because, you know, big pile of meh.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on April 05, 2018, 10:24:39 AM
I think one big example of why this film rubs so many people including me the wrong way can be summed up in the whole premise of "we can be tracked in hyperspace now." One thing that has been consistent throughout the movies, even going back to the prequels, is the sense that the technology in this universe is fairly static, almost stagnant. Now, it's likely just because the filmmakers involved haven't been all that creative when it comes to the tech. They have pew pew and zoom and they haven't really needed much before. The hyperspace tracking thing felt more like a Star Trek plot point than a Star Wars one, the kind of tech Mcguffin that entire episodes of Trek are built around (before being completely forgotten the next episode). I mean, the Empire builds a Death Star that does the job in the first movie, it gets blown up and they just build another one and in TFA, the First Order planet is just a larger and more implausible version of that. So for them to suddenly come up with a new technology that drives the plot for 3/4 of the way through feels out of place. It doesn't feel like a Star Wars film.

And that was true throughout the whole movie. The casino scene. The hyperspace ramming. Not to mention the pissing upon the sacred cow of Jedi white knighthood. Had this not been a Star Wars movie, I still think it would have been a mediocre film because its structural flaws are still there, but it wouldn't have drawn as much vehement backlash either.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on April 05, 2018, 11:58:05 AM
Why Jedi gotta be white?

(https://orig00.deviantart.net/2d66/f/2014/353/7/5/jedi_motherfucker_by_coringanerd-d8adq25.jpg)


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on April 05, 2018, 03:29:34 PM
Good thing they never were able to get a significantly sized ship near the second Deathstar or the Starkillerbase.

They were not. Like... did you watch RotJ?

They jumped a dang fleet adjacent to the thing.  Once the shield was down, the easiest way to destoy that thing would have been to jump a sizeable ship into it.

Full of personnel? Through a star destroyer? Before they could get enough velocity to make an impact? Before trying their original much cheaper plan involving fewer people and less resources?

Yea ok

Yes u guys must have liked the midichlorian scene. “But the movies never told me what exactly the force was and I cannot I fed anything on my own unless it’s explained to me in as if it were science”
Actually, no.  I am pretty sure that the Midichlorian scene was almost universally shit on by pretty much every starwars fan out there. 

Dot dot dot

Re: The fridge

This is actually an interesting observation about why the fridge didn’t work. The short answer was that it wasn’t just the fridge.  Lucas has always had a thing for pulp adventures. He did the original trilogy as pulp. He did the original Indy as pulp. When he did the prequel trilogy he did them as 1920s pulp, whereas the OT was 1970s pulp. This transition did not work. He also changed the Indy series from 1940s pulp to 1950s pulp. These transitions simply do not work because each era is tonally and thematically separate in ways that break the fundamental assumptions.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on April 06, 2018, 02:27:24 AM
Clearly I dread to think what goes on in the heads of some of you fuckers. But. Is it possible that rather than the problem being tech and tactics consistency, some of you got turned off by the FO's comedy stylings and the casino planet, then were too far out of the film to roll with what is fairly normal star wars 'operatic' loose physics and tactics?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Hoax on April 06, 2018, 07:29:50 AM
That's likely but I don't think it was the casino planet, that was just bad but not jarring me out of the film bad.

I think it was just everything about the First Order / Hux in the entire movie but extra super duper especially the whole Poe rings them up and stalls thing into BB8 plugging the electricity dam shit. Just right from the jump I was struggling with the movie and could feel myself watching a movie wondering why I was watching it.

I mean we don't expect much from Star Wars villains, they don't get a lot of range time etc. but this was a straight up kid's movie. You know the type, where any type of perceived menace would be too terrifying for the lil guys so we have to remind them how bumbling and non threatening the bad guys are every 20min.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on April 06, 2018, 07:47:39 AM
So, speaking of tonality, Star Wars villains have in their time routinely murdered billions of people in a cold and distant way; burned the flesh off of Uncle Ben and Aunt Owen; sacrificed slave women to a giant monster; choked their own subordinates; etc. But of those villains, the only ones who never really get a moment of incompetence that's faintly or not so faintly ridiculous are...Darth Vader. That's about it. Maybe the Emperor, though his gloating to Luke in ROTJ is basically a classic villain monologue that gives away the evil plan. Darth Maul is pretty badass in the three or four scenes that he's central to but looks kind of stupid when he gets cut in half by an apprentice Jedi. There's one or two Imperial officers who don't seem incompetent; the rest are routinely shown being hapless or easily foiled by simple trickery or Rebel/Resistance tactics. Let's not even get started on Stormtroopers, who are routinely portrayed as useless. 

I suppose the unusual thing in TLJ is that they are largely focused just on murdering the Resistance.

So when someone says, "I don't want villains who bumble or who are not threatening in my Star Wars", I am at a loss. First, because even the bumblers are killers and torturers who wear all black and have English accents or are in dehumanizing armor. I mean, they're not Team Rocket, they're not kiddie villains who never do anything particularly harmful. Second, what would a non-bumbling, non-threatening and yet Star Warsy villain who was not just a reprise of Darth Vader be? What would satisfy? This goes back to tonality here. Star Wars is if nothing else a reworking of old pulp serial films; the kinds of villains it works with are descendants of Ming of Mongo. Villains who are not bumblers and are deeply threatening and frightening in a non-kiddie way come from some other family tree. Having an Anton Chigurh or Hannibal Lecter in Star Wars seems like an unambiguous tonal mistake. I suppose you could have a Khan Noonian Singh, but that's basically Darth Maul, an angry vengeance machine who is operatically over the top--and yet in the end (like Khan) kind of incompetent precisely because he's so operatic.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on April 06, 2018, 07:50:07 AM
That's likely but I don't think it was the casino planet, that was just bad but not jarring me out of the film bad.

I think it was just everything about the First Order / Hux in the entire movie but extra super duper especially the whole Poe rings them up and stalls thing into BB8 plugging the electricity dam shit. Just right from the jump I was struggling with the movie and could feel myself watching a movie wondering why I was watching it.

I mean we don't expect much from Star Wars villains, they don't get a lot of range time etc. but this was a straight up kid's movie. You know the type, where any type of perceived menace would be too terrifying for the lil guys so we have to remind them how bumbling and non threatening the bad guys are every 20min.

That does seem fair enough. I think the reason that didn't take me out of the film is that this movie was more about main characters (including Kylo) overcoming their own shit. The FO just weren't important enough to spoil the film for me.

But hard to argue they were anything like as watchable as OT vader, R1 Krennic or even prequel palpatine & co.


I do wonder if I'll find the bad parts drag on a second viewing. But I liked Luke Skywalker, I liked rey & kylo working shit out and I liked the  throne room, I liked Poe and Finn getting an actual arc. I liked that unlike the second and third act of tFA the film felt like it told its own story.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on April 06, 2018, 10:15:37 AM
So when someone says, "I don't want villains who bumble or who are not threatening in my Star Wars", I am at a loss.

I think of it like this when I'm considering why Hux is so bothersome to me.

I imagine Tarkin talking to Vader right before they blow up Alderan with the Death Star. Right as they give the order to commit genocide, right as Leia is watching, Tarkin rips a loud, old man fart. Leia, rather than being distraught at the deaths of billions, quips something along the lines of "perhaps the Admiral would like an antacid?" or something similarly quippy and stupid.

That's Hux in a nutshell, only the actor himself doesn't even have the gravitas and age to compare to Peter Cushing, he just looks like a teenager trying to impress a girl, who is completely repulsed by his Nazi-ism. And rather than having the stoic, opaque menace of Darth Vader next to Hux, we have the whiny Kylo Ren. The only First Order character to exude any menace whatsoever was Snoke (perhaps because he was both alien looking and mysterious) and he went out like a punk bitch. We're told that the First Order is dangerous and kicking the shit out of the Resistance, but nothing on screen has given us any reason to believe that's true.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Goumindong on April 06, 2018, 01:44:16 PM
So, speaking of tonality, Star Wars villains have in their time routinely murdered billions of people in a cold and distant way; burned the flesh off of Uncle Ben and Aunt Owen; sacrificed slave women to a giant monster; choked their own subordinates; etc. But of those villains, the only ones who never really get a moment of incompetence that's faintly or not so faintly ridiculous are...Darth Vader. That's about it. Maybe the Emperor, though his gloating to Luke in ROTJ is basically a classic villain monologue that gives away the evil plan. Darth Maul is pretty badass in the three or four scenes that he's central to but looks kind of stupid when he gets cut in half by an apprentice Jedi. There's one or two Imperial officers who don't seem incompetent; the rest are routinely shown being hapless or easily foiled by simple trickery or Rebel/Resistance tactics. Let's not even get started on Stormtroopers, who are routinely portrayed as useless. 

I suppose the unusual thing in TLJ is that they are largely focused just on murdering the Resistance.

So when someone says, "I don't want villains who bumble or who are not threatening in my Star Wars", I am at a loss. First, because even the bumblers are killers and torturers who wear all black and have English accents or are in dehumanizing armor. I mean, they're not Team Rocket, they're not kiddie villains who never do anything particularly harmful. Second, what would a non-bumbling, non-threatening and yet Star Warsy villain who was not just a reprise of Darth Vader be? What would satisfy? This goes back to tonality here. Star Wars is if nothing else a reworking of old pulp serial films; the kinds of villains it works with are descendants of Ming of Mongo. Villains who are not bumblers and are deeply threatening and frightening in a non-kiddie way come from some other family tree. Having an Anton Chigurh or Hannibal Lecter in Star Wars seems like an unambiguous tonal mistake. I suppose you could have a Khan Noonian Singh, but that's basically Darth Maul, an angry vengeance machine who is operatically over the top--and yet in the end (like Khan) kind of incompetent precisely because he's so operatic.

Vader was incompetent. He kept murdering anyone who made a mistake. Which meant that no one smart climbed the chain of command and that if you did perchance get one they would likely get murdered.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on April 06, 2018, 02:13:03 PM
Some people are clearly invested in these movies not being shit. Anf while I'm completely invested in this movie being shit, the utter denial of any problems this movie has is rather hilarious. Anyway this proves that the marvel movies were a fluke.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on April 06, 2018, 02:26:34 PM
That's Hux in a nutshell, only the actor himself doesn't even have the gravitas and age to compare to Peter Cushing, he just looks like a teenager trying to impress a girl, who is completely repulsed by his Nazi-ism. And rather than having the stoic, opaque menace of Darth Vader next to Hux, we have the whiny Kylo Ren. The only First Order character to exude any menace whatsoever was Snoke (perhaps because he was both alien looking and mysterious) and he went out like a punk bitch. We're told that the First Order is dangerous and kicking the shit out of the Resistance, but nothing on screen has given us any reason to believe that's true.

I guess I could understand this if you hadn't watched any previous SW film. But you're talking about an organization that took the reins of power from the old Empire. So you've got guys who are opportunistic, not necessarily skilled, and completely drunk with power. Huxs largest fault as far as I go is, he consistently underestimates Kylo. Kylo is a damn strong force user, seems barely out of his teens, and recognizes his own potential. Yeah, he's a whiny bitch, Snoke is the only one we've seen so far who wasn't. As far as the First Order being dangerous, you may have noticed them eradicate a village at the beginning of TFA, and the ridiculously small rebel fleet they were chasing. There's definitely been some trimming going on.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on April 06, 2018, 04:26:36 PM
Exactly. This is the point of the First Order: they're alt-right wannabees trying to imitate the fascists of days gone by, but underneath it all they know they're kind of shit. Hux and Kylo are Mencius Moldbug and Dylann Roof: poseurs, phonies, trying to talk themselves into believing they're the conquerors of the galaxy and the dark lords of the Sith.

You might say: I don't like villains who seem like the shitty villains of our times. But you know, most of the people you think of as seriously evil in the past were generally just as bogus or overwrought when you were actually living through their reigns of terror. You might also ask yourself: why do I want my fascists to be appealingly badass rather than shitty, phony fuckfaces?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sir T on April 06, 2018, 05:45:49 PM
Let's not even get started on Stormtroopers, who are routinely portrayed as useless. 

Lets be somewhat fair, in the first movie they were missing on purpose on order to let the Heroes go.

In the other movies there really was no excuse...


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on April 06, 2018, 09:06:59 PM
The village slaughter scene at the beginning of TFA was the first and last time the First Order seemed genuinely menacing (also the first and last time for Kylo Ren with the stopping the blaster bolt in mid-air). Even the destruction of five planets in TFA felt underwhelming - probably because it just felt like an echo of the Death Star. Despite getting their asses handed to them in the end, the Empire always seemed genuinely menacing. The First Order has shown no onscreen capability to even turn on a light switch.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on April 07, 2018, 01:14:14 AM
I think one big example of why this film rubs so many people including me the wrong way can be summed up in the whole premise of "we can be tracked in hyperspace now." One thing that has been consistent throughout the movies, even going back to the prequels, is the sense that the technology in this universe is fairly static, almost stagnant. Now, it's likely just because the filmmakers involved haven't been all that creative when it comes to the tech. They have pew pew and zoom and they haven't really needed much before. The hyperspace tracking thing felt more like a Star Trek plot point than a Star Wars one, the kind of tech Mcguffin that entire episodes of Trek are built around (before being completely forgotten the next episode). I mean, the Empire builds a Death Star that does the job in the first movie, it gets blown up and they just build another one and in TFA, the First Order planet is just a larger and more implausible version of that. So for them to suddenly come up with a new technology that drives the plot for 3/4 of the way through feels out of place. It doesn't feel like a Star Wars film.

And that was true throughout the whole movie. The casino scene. The hyperspace ramming. Not to mention the pissing upon the sacred cow of Jedi white knighthood. Had this not been a Star Wars movie, I still think it would have been a mediocre film because its structural flaws are still there, but it wouldn't have drawn as much vehement backlash either.

When I first saw the movie I honestly thought "Ok, so the stuff on the fleet is going to be about them looking for the traitor who planted the tracking device." I then imagined "Ok, we know they go to a casino planet, so maybe they're going looking for proof before they accuse this new Admiral they introduced?"

Nope. Out of all the plot points in the movie this one bugs me the most. Followed a distant second by Rian Johnson being like "You know all that stuff JJ set up in VII? Totally tossing it aside because fuck you, that's why." I'm not claiming JJ is a master storyteller or anything but when you totally cast away things that were set up in a previous movie in a trilogy it just causes tonal whiplash.

Finally, about the hyperspace ramming. Much like the parsecs thing this is apparently "fixed" in the novelization. It seems that that specific cruiser had some kind of new shield on it. When she went to hyperspace the ship actually stopped when it contacted the First Order Cruiser and that shield is what caused the damage or something. I don't know, I don't have the book but saw a Youtube video in passing that said something like "Why wasn't Hyperspace ramming used before in Star Wars?" and I was like "Well, i have 5 minutes to spare...."


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Malakili on April 07, 2018, 06:53:41 AM
The First Order has shown no onscreen capability to even turn on a light switch.

Am I the one who remembers they blew up like 8 planets in one go (in a scene that is far worse than any scene in TLJ, I might add)?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on April 07, 2018, 09:35:00 AM
Some relevant statements from Rian himself on his future visions... (http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/rian-johnson-on-making-a-new-star-wars-trilogy-what-is-star-wars-after-skywalker)


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on April 07, 2018, 11:53:32 AM
The First Order has shown no onscreen capability to even turn on a light switch.

Am I the one who remembers they blew up like 8 planets in one go (in a scene that is far worse than any scene in TLJ, I might add)?

To be fair the problem isn't them having the machinery, it is them having the competence to acquire and use it.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on April 07, 2018, 05:07:14 PM
The First Order has shown no onscreen capability to even turn on a light switch.

Am I the one who remembers they blew up like 8 planets in one go (in a scene that is far worse than any scene in TLJ, I might add)?

To be fair the problem isn't them having the machinery, it is them having the competence to acquire and use it.


Yeah, that scene in TFA? It's fucking terrible and has absolutely no emotional impact nor does it impart any sort of menace on them at all. I mean, yes, it should but it doesn't. Probably because it's so laughably implausible as to be just glossed over in the mind. It was one of those I just kind of hand-waved it away as "homage to Star Wars," the kind of thing JJ Abrams does all too often.

However, there isn't even that one bit of competence shown in TLJ.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on April 07, 2018, 07:02:56 PM
The idea that TLJ is less competent in some sense than TFA seems to me almost inexplicable. It's less cynical? Less risk-averse? Less a lot of things. But the notion that somehow Abrams delivered a competent story and TLJ didn't is more weird fan mentality. It's ok to not like it--why is it so hard to say, "This is not my cup of tea?" I have plenty of things whose competency, virtues, etc., I readily concede and I simply say, "This is not my cup of tea." That seems like it's an essential distinction for anyone with a cultural life--to not confuse, "This is poorly made" with "It's not to my taste".


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on April 07, 2018, 09:36:19 PM
That's the problem though. Neither is a perfectly great film but yes, TFA is much more competently written. Certainly it doesn't try anything risky. It's actually in a sense one of the most perfect franchise movies - it doesn't really break any new ground but at the same time is mostly a competent, retread of a similar formula. TLJ does try new things but it does them without any real basis for them within the context of the universe it's set in. And in a pure storytelling sense, most of its story beats are really really poorly conceived and poorly executed. It is not a bad film in the sense of its technical accomplishments  - it looks good, it's visually well done. I don't really think there are any poor acting performances. It is a storytelling disaster however.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: BobtheSomething on April 07, 2018, 10:27:28 PM
The First Order has shown no onscreen capability to even turn on a light switch.

Am I the one who remembers they blew up like 8 planets in one go (in a scene that is far worse than any scene in TLJ, I might add)?

To be fair the problem isn't them having the machinery, it is them having the competence to acquire and use it.


Yeah, that scene in TFA? It's fucking terrible and has absolutely no emotional impact nor does it impart any sort of menace on them at all. I mean, yes, it should but it doesn't. Probably because it's so laughably implausible as to be just glossed over in the mind. It was one of those I just kind of hand-waved it away as "homage to Star Wars," the kind of thing JJ Abrams does all too often.

However, there isn't even that one bit of competence shown in TLJ.

It's hard to even tell if we are supposed to view the scene as an actual event or rather as an emotional interpretation of events.  Are the five unnamed planetsplosions visible from Maz's sky supposed to be metaphorical? 

But I guess wanting to know the physical, social and emotional scale of events is just nitpicking.  How dare the audience ask for things to make sense.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: BobtheSomething on April 07, 2018, 10:50:10 PM
The idea that TLJ is less competent in some sense than TFA seems to me almost inexplicable. It's less cynical? Less risk-averse? Less a lot of things. But the notion that somehow Abrams delivered a competent story and TLJ didn't is more weird fan mentality. It's ok to not like it--why is it so hard to say, "This is not my cup of tea?" I have plenty of things whose competency, virtues, etc., I readily concede and I simply say, "This is not my cup of tea." That seems like it's an essential distinction for anyone with a cultural life--to not confuse, "This is poorly made" with "It's not to my taste".


Well, I can't speak for Haemish, but I am not a fan of TFA at all, and more and more of the fans I talk to feel the same way.  It's the Star Trek Into Darkness effect; TFA is more easily recognized as a failure these days than when it was new. 

And your own argument works against you, too.  Why can you not recognize the flaws riddled through TLJ while being able to say it's still your cup of tea?  There's a lot to like in the film, but it's not flawless.  There seems to be a Madonna/whore complex about the film from all sides.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Velorath on April 07, 2018, 11:45:42 PM
The idea that TLJ is less competent in some sense than TFA seems to me almost inexplicable. It's less cynical? Less risk-averse? Less a lot of things. But the notion that somehow Abrams delivered a competent story and TLJ didn't is more weird fan mentality. It's ok to not like it--why is it so hard to say, "This is not my cup of tea?" I have plenty of things whose competency, virtues, etc., I readily concede and I simply say, "This is not my cup of tea." That seems like it's an essential distinction for anyone with a cultural life--to not confuse, "This is poorly made" with "It's not to my taste".


At a narrative level, I think the film is poorly made. It has long stretches of side-plot that don't actually advance the story like the casino. It has character arcs that either don't make sense, like Poe's (rather than try to be the hero, you should blindly trust that your superior has a plan they're just not sharing with you) or are contradictory (Rose's monologue explaining why Finn shouldn't sacrifice himself, which is delivered in a movie where two of the biggest moments are heroes sacrificing themselves). Overall the heroes of this trilogy feel like side characters in their own story, with Kylo, Luke, and Laura Dern actually having the biggest effect on the story. The slow speed chase doesn't build any tension visually so it falls on characters periodically reminding the audience that the fuel is going to run out soon. I don't feel like this movie is telling a story. It took a couple pieces off the board and answered a couple questions left over from the previous movie, but "good guys escape villains, each hero learns an important life lesson" is more like a filler episode of a TV series than the 2nd part of a trilogy that's presumably meant to set up a finale.

And yes, I realize that the original trilogy has it faults which is probably why nobody praises those movies for being well-written.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on April 08, 2018, 01:49:11 AM
The idea that TLJ is less competent in some sense than TFA seems to me almost inexplicable. It's less cynical? Less risk-averse? Less a lot of things. But the notion that somehow Abrams delivered a competent story and TLJ didn't is more weird fan mentality. It's ok to not like it--why is it so hard to say, "This is not my cup of tea?" I have plenty of things whose competency, virtues, etc., I readily concede and I simply say, "This is not my cup of tea." That seems like it's an essential distinction for anyone with a cultural life--to not confuse, "This is poorly made" with "It's not to my taste".


Except it's really not. Now, I should put in a disclaimer here. Unlike a lot of people on this board I enjoyed TFA but even if I didn't TLJ has some major issues. In no particular order:

1) Rian discarded story beats left, right and center without much thought to how that will affect the continuity of the trilogy. The best example of this is Snoke. I am not someone who cared about Snoke's back-story which is one of the gripes I hear a lot. "He died and we didn't even get his backstory!" But I do think he was clearly set up and forecast as the series main villain. So why was he killed off? What narrative purpose did it serve? You could say it was to further Kylo Ren's story arc but did it really? It just pushed him into full-on evil guy when he was much more interesting as a conflicted man who does awful things but doesn't seem to be evil to the core. This movie even seemed to be leaning into that theme when we got the backstory about how Luke had a moment of doubt and ignited his saber which was the moment that fully pushed Kylo to the Dark Side. And then Rian just utterly switches gears and it feels like a bit of a cheap change just to be like "SEE? I'm not following the formula!"

2) This one is worse for me in some ways as a nerd. He introduces new technologies without thought of how it will effect things. For all of Star Wars, jumping to hyperspace equaled escape. Now it doesn't anymore. For all of Star Wars, it was essentially World War 2 battleships and fighters duking it out. Now we know they can just hyperspace ram each other. Also, I can't think of a single time in Star Wars fuel has bee an issue. I know fuel tanks have been mentioned mostly in the "shoot the fuel tank!" type of dialogue in the clone wars but it's never been a consideration. Now it is. This all can have major impacts on the universe going forward but clearly Rian didn't think it over.

3) The entire Casino planet side trip is mostly wasted screen time. They just sort of bumbled around and did very little except look impressed when BB-8 saved the day in antics very reminiscent of the prequel trilogies.

4) A lot of the Luke and Rey scenes make very little sense when you look back at them. Luke didn't really teach her hardly anything. Now, in some ways you can say it is an inversion of the trope as Rey convinced Luke to let go of his fear and reenter the fight but still...

5) Which brings me to characterization. It feels like the only character he really "got" was Rey. He utterly screwed up Poe and to a lesser extent Finn. In particular, he had Finn fall back on his "I'm scared and leaving" arc from TFA, an arc that had clearly already been dealt with. The whole point of Finn volunteering to go to Starkiller base was to show he was now committed to the fight. But in TLJ we get the scene of him getting ready to bail on the Resistance when Rose catches him...

I mean in a lot of ways TLJ feels like a movie made by a man who either didn't understand Star Wars (as in 'get' the universe) or just really disliked it as it was and wanted to remold it into something different.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on April 08, 2018, 08:01:40 AM
TFA was also bad. JJ shameless remake of a new hope plus his inability to give me any reason to care about the characters or whats going on will always be beginning of the fucking shitshow. Episode 8 is suppose to be course correction but no it merely double down about what was stupid about TFA while throwing away the plot elements TFA promised will fill in the giant holes in the ongoing plot.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Hoax on April 08, 2018, 08:19:39 AM
TFA was worse. Way way way worse.

Man fuck TFA. That's probably the worst I've felt after watching a movie in theaters in the past 5 years or so. I mean I'm trying to think if anything else has come close. Avengers: Ultron might have been the second worst off the top of my head and while it wasn't a good movie it didn't make me feel anywhere near as bad, just letdown that it wasn't anywhere near as cool and fun as the first Avengers.

I agree with 2-5 wholeheartedly but I've never heard the discarded TFA stuff thing be explicit except with regards to Snoke and I don't give a fuck about him. His death while super extra telegraphed was still one of the better parts of this shitpile.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on April 08, 2018, 10:04:41 AM
The discarded story beats thing more than anything else makes me think some of the negative reaction some people have is because they personally feel criticized by what Johnson did.

What Johnson did is say: here are the bells that are being rung where you salivate. Here's what you've been trained to expect--not just by Star Wars but by reams of by-the-numbers heroic narratives. You already had in your mind what was supposed to happen: Luke would take the lightsaber and say 'I have been waiting for you, youngling...it is time to begin the training'; Poe would hatch a desperate plan that defied the dull bureaucratic leadership of women admirals and it would work; Snoke would reveal his sinister plans and turn out to be a millennia-old menace from the Outer Reaches; Kylo would be turned back to the good side by the love of a good woman; Rey would turn out to be a Skywalker or a Kenobi; Luke would show up at the last and do a Starkiller where he throws planets around using the Force, but then dies and Snoke has to retreat snarling, hatching yet another Ultimate Plan of Evil.

There is nothing that says, "These story beats have to be paid off in a particular way." A former hero, broken by his failures, hiding from the world? Maybe that's not your Luke, but it makes emotional and narrative sense and there's nothing in the prior movies that promises something else. A lost young woman, strong in the Force, who was simply abandoned by neglectful parents? All you saw of her folks before was a ship taking off--nothing more. That's a resolution with its own epic resonance (not all heroic fantasy is a story of a lineage--a hero who overcomes abandonment and loss is another perfectly common template!) A derring-do pilot who is so headstrong that he makes horrible errors in judgment but who learns some lessons and begins to be more like a real leader? How much did you know about Poe before that makes that a "failed story beat"? Snoke? All you knew about him was two short, vague menacing conversations--about as much as you knew about the Emperor in ESB, when the Emperor could have turned out to be anything, really.

There's no failed story beats here: there's your expectations, conditioned by a thousand cookie-cutter plot templates. Johnson decided to surprise us all. Some of us plainly don't like be surprised; some of us do.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on April 08, 2018, 11:43:15 AM
In particular, he had Finn fall back on his "I'm scared and leaving" arc from TFA, an arc that had clearly already been dealt with. The whole point of Finn volunteering to go to Starkiller base was to show he was now committed to the fight. But in TLJ we get the scene of him getting ready to bail on the Resistance when Rose catches him...

TBF, I have to disagree with this one. He wasn't bailing on the Resistance, he was trying to go save Rey, or at least try to save Rey and get her to come back to help the Resistance. It was a dumb idea, however, and it really feels like Rian didn't get Finn at all as anything other than comic relief. And neither JJ or Rian were able to mine the "I'm a Stormtrooper trained from birth to be a killer but I rebelled against that" or even explain what any of that means. Which meant that Phasma character, which was wasted by both directors, didn't really have any reason to exist either.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Velorath on April 08, 2018, 11:44:59 AM
There's no failed story beats here: there's your expectations, conditioned by a thousand cookie-cutter plot templates. Johnson decided to surprise us all. Some of us plainly don't like be surprised; some of us do.

You're right, the movie isn't paced and structured badly with long diversions that don't really add up to anything or advance the story, Johnson has invented a whole new way to do narrative that the rest of us just don't get. Clearly I just don't like the surprise that comes from realizing you could lift half of the main characters out of the movie and the only thing that would change is that the movie would be 45 minutes shorter.

Also I don't think very many people here have complained about Luke. My only issues with his stuff is a) playing it for laughs by tossing the lightsaber away at the beginning in what feels like something Hamill might have done in an outtake that Johnson latched onto, and b) Luke even slightly contemplating killing his own nephew in his sleep.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on April 08, 2018, 11:51:25 AM
What Johnson did is say: here are the bells that are being rung where you salivate. Here's what you've been trained to expect--not just by Star Wars but by reams of by-the-numbers heroic narratives. You already had in your mind what was supposed to happen: Luke would take the lightsaber and say 'I have been waiting for you, youngling...it is time to begin the training'; Poe would hatch a desperate plan that defied the dull bureaucratic leadership of women admirals and it would work; Snoke would reveal his sinister plans and turn out to be a millennia-old menace from the Outer Reaches; Kylo would be turned back to the good side by the love of a good woman; Rey would turn out to be a Skywalker or a Kenobi; Luke would show up at the last and do a Starkiller where he throws planets around using the Force, but then dies and Snoke has to retreat snarling, hatching yet another Ultimate Plan of Evil.

Fuck right the everliving fuck off with that. It is utter horse shit and you ought to know most of the posters around here, including me, better than to expect ANY of that bullshit. If indeed Rian Johnson wrote those story beats the way he did with a "SEE HOW PAVLOVIAN YOUR DESIRES ARE NERDLINGS!!!!" then he can fuck right off with it too, because he's supposed to be writing a script that builds organically rather than trying an experiment in GOTCHA storytelling. It's not any more interesting to take a paint-by-numbers narrative structure and then just insert negative numbers in where there were positives. That's just as hackneyed as bringing in the typical pablum only with a side note of comic book guy "AIN'T I SO CLEVER!!!!"

Indeed if that's why he chose to take the story beats where he did, that's exactly why they are so terrible. They don't feel organic. They are forced. They make the audience stop and go "WUUUUT?" And again, they aren't even logically consistent within their own movie. The entire Poe story arc is a clever attempt to highlight the stupidity of the rogue maverick hero, only it also highlights how utterly stupid and convoluted Lara Dern's plan is to the point of "why wouldn't you tell the leader of your fighter squadrons what your plan is?" Because the story says so, which is what takes the audience out of the story.

I like Rian Johnson's previous work. I thought Brick was fantastic. This was just a fucking mess and I can't understand why Disney gave him a separate, standalone trilogy based on this movie.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on April 08, 2018, 01:06:19 PM
I like Rian Johnson's previous work. I thought Brick was fantastic. This was just a fucking mess and I can't understand why Disney gave him a separate, standalone trilogy based on this movie.

Is it really that hard to understand that your opinion constitutes an insignificant minority?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Sir T on April 08, 2018, 01:13:11 PM
I like Rian Johnson's previous work. I thought Brick was fantastic. This was just a fucking mess and I can't understand why Disney gave him a separate, standalone trilogy based on this movie.

Because this movie made moolah. If people would actually stop going to see these servings of shit, then the production companies might actually have a reason to stop serving them.

Instead its the same old story. People flock to them, say "wow its fantastic Starwars is back we are saved!!" and then over the next few months people slowly start to admit that they were shit, but then the HYPE for the next serving of of even more watery shit starts and people queue up again.

It is possible to wait a week to see if word of mouth says this piece of crap is worth seeing, you know. But, as things stand for right now, there is zero and no reason for them to stop making piles of crap.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on April 08, 2018, 01:21:57 PM
I like Rian Johnson's previous work. I thought Brick was fantastic. This was just a fucking mess and I can't understand why Disney gave him a separate, standalone trilogy based on this movie.
Is it really that hard to understand that your opinion constitutes an insignificant minority?
Except it isn't the opinion of an insignificant minority - a lot of people share it.   


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on April 08, 2018, 01:29:24 PM
I like Rian Johnson's previous work. I thought Brick was fantastic. This was just a fucking mess and I can't understand why Disney gave him a separate, standalone trilogy based on this movie.
Is it really that hard to understand that your opinion constitutes an insignificant minority?
Except it isn't the opinion of an insignificant minority - a lot of people share it.   

Of course, that's why this movie bombed so hard and Rian Johnson will never get to direct another movie again. Or we could look at the actual reality and see that in fact it is a tiny minority that for some reason holds some completely irrational hate for this movie.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ironwood on April 08, 2018, 03:09:11 PM
It's good to have you back WUA.
 :grin:


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on April 08, 2018, 03:59:29 PM
I like Rian Johnson's previous work. I thought Brick was fantastic. This was just a fucking mess and I can't understand why Disney gave him a separate, standalone trilogy based on this movie.
Is it really that hard to understand that your opinion constitutes an insignificant minority?
Except it isn't the opinion of an insignificant minority - a lot of people share it.   

Of course, that's why this movie bombed so hard and Rian Johnson will never get to direct another movie again. Or we could look at the actual reality and see that in fact it is a tiny minority that for some reason holds some completely irrational hate for this movie.

First off, I didn't pay to go see it - my company bought tickets for everyone. So I didn't actually pay for this movie.

Secondly, Rotten Tomatoes Audience Score is 47%. Force Awakens audience score is 88%. So while true this is a small portion of the overall audience, it's enough numbers to get a good idea of where the sentiment stands. In other words, about half the people who saw this did not like it compared to TFA where almost 90% did. We're talking about somewhere in the neighborhood of 200,000 respondents which is more than you normally get with most polling of any kind that is considered scientific.

And how do we know the TLJ did not succeed as well as TFA? MONEY. TFA made over $2 billion worldwide, while Last Jedi is at $1.3 billion worldwide. It had a lower opening weekend, with more theaters available than TFA. It was in theater release 8 weeks less than TFA. While clearly it made it's money and isn't a financial failure, it empirically not as much of a success as TFA, and the audiences clearly did not return for multiple viewings because the box office was lower, which matches the audience score.

Nobody said it bombed. It wasn't as good, and that's not just my opinion, that's the opinion of at least half the people who saw it and the numbers back that shit up.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Jeff Kelly on April 08, 2018, 04:28:55 PM
The people bothering to submit a rotten tomato score are not representative of the general viewership. I’d also be hesitant to base my argument off of something that can be as easily manipulated as online user ratings, hence why metabombing is a thing.

200,000+ ratings in three months. It took phantom menace years to reach that point and TFA two years.

Neither of which has as many “why Kathleen Kennedy/SJW ruined Star Wars” YouTube tirades as this one.

None of the actual decision making by Disney shows that they view TLJ as anything other than a success. Including but not limited to the fact that they didn’t shitcan Rian Johnson but instead gave him even more Star Wars movies.

If you hated the movie, fine. If you think that it’s the worst movie of all time, fine.

It was the highest grossing movie of 2017, had the highest grossing domestic opening weekend of all time and currently sits at the #9 spot of highest grossing worldwide release of all time, though. Arguing that it is anything other than a huge success just because it didn’t beat the #2 all time highest grossing worldwide release TFA or because of about 100,000 people and bots voicing their displeasure on Rotten Tomatoes is beyond ridiculous though.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: HaemishM on April 08, 2018, 04:53:52 PM
Never said it wasn't a huge success or that it meant that Disney wasn't happy with Rian Johnson, as they clearly were. I merely pointed out that it was not as great a success as TFA, both in terms of box office numbers AND audience score.

And frankly, even if it's been manipulated, most pollsters would be quite fine making a conclusion with 1/4 of the numbers of respondents as the two movies got on Rotten Tomatoes.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Jeff Kelly on April 08, 2018, 05:23:32 PM
It wasn’t as much of a success is technically correct but I feel it is a bit of a pointless argument when the two movies being compared to each other are the #2 and #9 all time highest grossing films. It doesn’t make any statement on quality either because Avatar is still #1 and that movie is utter shit.

Disney won’t change its approach. Firstly because it’s insanely successful with Disney dominating  the top twenty highest grossing movies of all time list. Secondly because they know all of the people complaining now will dutifully buy tickets to the next Star Wars installment anyway.

They might if Star Wars 9 fails, which it won’t

TFA and TLJ alone have already more than made up the 4.5 billion purchase price of Lucasfilm if you include merchandising.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: MediumHigh on April 08, 2018, 09:11:18 PM
TFA was peak interest in Disney Star Wars. TLJ is a significant jump downward but your still talking a difference between say 2 billion and 1.3 billion. So either a lot of people didn't watch this twice, TFA threw enough of the "whiny nerd" crowd off the franchise, or a combination of both. Even if the 9th movie follows the trend, your still talking a box office of 800 million + world wide...maybe. Sony cut the amazing spiderman series short for a difference of 50 million. But spiderman isn't star wars.

Disney doesn't need the older fans, I mean whiny nerds, to sell movie tickets for a profit and will probably continue to do so because they found a audience that is easier to please. Disney has no obligation to make these movies good, and their pretty much saying they won't. And not because their an evil corporation but because star wars is too big to conceivably fail and if a star wars movie did bomb in the not so distant future... well Disney made their money back. Even merchandising not selling at the rate predicted is but a small set back. Disney can always kill the brand wait 5-15 years and release a new series of even more kid friendly movies to an audience of 20 year olds who found the The Force Awakens nostalgic.

But its ok, the nerds don't matter their only a small vocal minority.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Velorath on April 08, 2018, 10:39:18 PM
TFA was peak interest in Disney Star Wars. TLJ is a significant jump downward but your still talking a difference between say 2 billion and 1.3 billion. So either a lot of people didn't watch this twice, TFA threw enough of the "whiny nerd" crowd off the franchise, or a combination of both. Even if the 9th movie follows the trend, your still talking a box office of 800 million + world wide...maybe. Sony cut the amazing spiderman series short for a difference of 50 million. But spiderman isn't star wars.

I was just thinking of the same comparison with Amazing Spider-man. It's not just about how much money these movies make, it's about how much the studios feel they could be making. TLJ is by no means a bomb, but anybody would be fooling themselves to think that there's not a single person at Disney thinking about if anything could have been done differently to prevent at least some of that $700 million drop-off. Obviously it's not all on Rian Johnson's head. TFA had the benefit of being the first SW movie in 10 years, and the first one under Disney's control and without Lucas involved. It was an event, and each subsequent SW movie being released is less-so.

And there's a lot of ways you could look at the numbers. On the one hand you can say $1.3 billion worldwide is great. On the other, you could say that Star Wars was the biggest franchise and now Star Wars movies are getting passed up by stuff like Avengers, Jurassic World, and are getting challenged internationally by stuff like Fast & Furious movies. At the same time, depending on if they bring Luke back as a force ghost or not, Star Wars is running out of original trilogy characters they can bring out for nostalgia. They've got Lando as an option and that's about it, and when they're done with that Kylo is the only character they've got that has any sort of connection to the original movies.

After Episode IX, pretty much everything is going to be a spin-off movie by virtue of having no connection to the original movies, and they're going to need to do something with the franchise other than Dengar: A Star Wars Story or Episode X: The Empire, First Order, Guys Who Currently have the Star Destroyers and TIE Fighters Fight the Rebellion, Resistance, X-Wing People. I'm curious to see where they take things, but one thing none of Disney's Star Wars movies have done yet is to actually make me excited to see to what's coming next.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Riggswolfe on April 08, 2018, 11:57:00 PM
The discarded story beats thing more than anything else makes me think some of the negative reaction some people have is because they personally feel criticized by what Johnson did.

What Johnson did is say: here are the bells that are being rung where you salivate. Here's what you've been trained to expect--not just by Star Wars but by reams of by-the-numbers heroic narratives. You already had in your mind what was supposed to happen: Luke would take the lightsaber and say 'I have been waiting for you, youngling...it is time to begin the training'; Poe would hatch a desperate plan that defied the dull bureaucratic leadership of women admirals and it would work; Snoke would reveal his sinister plans and turn out to be a millennia-old menace from the Outer Reaches; Kylo would be turned back to the good side by the love of a good woman; Rey would turn out to be a Skywalker or a Kenobi; Luke would show up at the last and do a Starkiller where he throws planets around using the Force, but then dies and Snoke has to retreat snarling, hatching yet another Ultimate Plan of Evil.

There is nothing that says, "These story beats have to be paid off in a particular way." A former hero, broken by his failures, hiding from the world? Maybe that's not your Luke, but it makes emotional and narrative sense and there's nothing in the prior movies that promises something else. A lost young woman, strong in the Force, who was simply abandoned by neglectful parents? All you saw of her folks before was a ship taking off--nothing more. That's a resolution with its own epic resonance (not all heroic fantasy is a story of a lineage--a hero who overcomes abandonment and loss is another perfectly common template!) A derring-do pilot who is so headstrong that he makes horrible errors in judgment but who learns some lessons and begins to be more like a real leader? How much did you know about Poe before that makes that a "failed story beat"? Snoke? All you knew about him was two short, vague menacing conversations--about as much as you knew about the Emperor in ESB, when the Emperor could have turned out to be anything, really.

There's no failed story beats here: there's your expectations, conditioned by a thousand cookie-cutter plot templates. Johnson decided to surprise us all. Some of us plainly don't like be surprised; some of us do.


Some of my favorite movies challenge cliches in precisely the way you are describing. I love Big Trouble in Little China precisely because Jack Burton is the sidekick but thinks he is the hero, for example. This can be done and be done in a clever way but I don't think TLJ did it. It just had too many plot issues to successfully pull it off.

I'm not bothered by Luke withdrawing in despair. It was the biggest failure of his life and I suspect the First Order rising made him just go "Was any of it even worth it?" I'm not even bothered by Rian wanting to show Poe having to learn some hard lessons about leadership. Buit he did it in hamfisted and dumb ways.

For example: Why didn't Holdo tell Poe what she planned? There was literally zero reason to keep it from him. And she didn't just keep it from him, she kept it from most of the senior crew resulting in a mutiny which could have been disastrous. Also, her plan was stupid anyway. Why didn't she realize the First Order would target the shuttles? Or that the Resistance would now be trapped in a bunker with no ships to escape with?

For example: Why doesn't the First Order have a few ships from its fleet make a small hyperspace jump ahead of the Resistance fleet? Why just go on a slow motion chase until they run out of fuel? Also, when they saw Finn's shuttle leave why not shoot it out of space like they did the other shuttles at the end?

For example: Why show that Luke has lost faith in the Jedi but then have him lose the courage to burn the tree down? And why have the entire scene if Rey has already stolen the books anyway? Also, is Luke suddenly so dumb that he didn't walk in there and see that his bookshelf is now empty?

For example: Let's talk about some of the bad editing decisions. Regardless of how you feel about Snoke the entire throne room scene is ruined by one shot. The shot showing the Skywalker saber rotating on the arm of his throne a few seconds before it ignites. That one shot utterly robs the scene of tension. There are other examples like that but that one stands out to me the most. It also makes you realize that Snoke is apparently deaf as he did not hear the metal of the saber rubbing against the armrest as it turned.




Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on April 09, 2018, 12:30:34 AM
That was good, do Black Panther next.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ironwood on April 09, 2018, 04:16:17 AM
Please don't.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on April 09, 2018, 08:00:59 AM
That was good, do Black Panther next.

Nah, do the original trilogy next.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Ironwood on April 09, 2018, 08:03:23 AM
Please don't.



Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Draegan on April 09, 2018, 05:45:45 PM
Luke made out with his sister.
Darth Vaders first name was Darth.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: lamaros on April 11, 2018, 12:37:18 AM
I've not seen this movie, but this repetitive and mostly tedious thread does have some humor in it. Khal, you do realise that you and Tele are making the same point? Just, you really like the movie, and he don't.

Also, Something can be more or less good (or interesting), without that being correlated to how more or less Star Wars it is?


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Khaldun on April 11, 2018, 04:41:04 PM
Sure. But I think these are actually interesting conversations. Culture isn't meant to be consumed in privacy; opinions form and become more substantive in conversation. And I really do find the intensity of reactions on both sides interesting; I would rather have a cultural work be polarizing than to have a consensus that it's just ok or fine. (Which seems to be the view on TFA.)


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on April 12, 2018, 02:01:52 AM
It has been brought to my attention that there is one serious issue with tLJ we have not discussed.

It has paper in it.

There is no paper in star wars.

Twelve prior theatrical productions, three animated series and a holiday special managed to get this right.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on April 12, 2018, 11:49:28 AM
They're ancient papers.  I'm ok with Ancient Jedi writing on paper rather than using some ancient technology.

We've seen drawings as well in various places.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: eldaec on April 12, 2018, 01:52:52 PM
Not drawings on paper we haven't.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: TheWalrus on April 12, 2018, 01:54:05 PM
Christ, that's some nitpicky bullshit, man.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: jgsugden on April 12, 2018, 02:56:26 PM
Not drawings on paper we haven't.
So, you're concerned that they should never have had paper technology? Too advanced or something?  Just because it was so rare as to never make screen time in the moves/shows does not mean it is gone.  Using paper here, and only here, makes the texts feel more ancient.  There is some discussion of paper in various Star Wars projects, btw, even if not a movie or animated series:  [urlhttp://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Paper]Paper trail[/url]

One must ask, though, how they wipe their asses.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Rendakor on April 12, 2018, 02:58:46 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/azJIAQi.jpg)


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on April 12, 2018, 02:59:07 PM
One must ask, though, how they wipe their asses.

(https://i.imgur.com/fTdTZNm.jpg)


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Threash on April 12, 2018, 02:59:26 PM
Damn you.


Title: Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
Post by: Rendakor on April 12, 2018, 02:59:35 PM
Too slow. :why_so_serious: