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Author Topic: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi  (Read 37845 times)
HaemishM
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Reply #980 on: July 05, 2018, 02:01:51 PM

Do not bring up the fucking Ewoks because the fucking Ewoks just about ruined the entirety of the original trilogy. Fucking furry wet dream pieces of shit.

01101010
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Reply #981 on: July 05, 2018, 03:03:04 PM

The lightsaber fight with the red shirts was the only thing I enjoyed out of this movie... semi-enjoyed Benicio because his character is the only one who I could get behind. Everything else made my eye rolls harder than when I used to drop E in the clubs in the 90s.

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Typhon
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Reply #982 on: July 05, 2018, 05:46:32 PM

There is only one example of jedi powers running in a family in the entire star wars canon.

The only reason it comes up in every film except Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, Revenge of the Sith, Rogue 1 and Solo is that the other films have two or more Skywalkers in them.


Come the fuck on! Imagine for a minute that you have read a single shred of anything Star Wars ever and that the movies are the sole source of info you have about Star Wars.  Now can you see how someone like that, based off of a fair bit of dialog in the third movie (see below) might be led to believe that the film maker/writer's intent was that the Skywalkers were a bloodline that was strong with the force?  Especially since none of the other movies (as far as I remember) ever say, "but the Skywalkers are an anomaly".

If your answer is, "well, you just need to educate yourself and read the wiki to be clued into the fact that the intent was never to have blah blah blah", then just go fuck yourselves because you are completely and utterly intellectually dishonest.  I'm not singling you out specifically  eldaec, but just the camp saying there is nothing that would lead you to believe IN THE MOVIES that the force runs in families.  Even the midi-cholirian invention actually kind of leads toward that conclusion because they are a symbiot (I think?), so one might assume that certain body chemistry might create a more hospitable environment for said symbiotic orgainism.

Quote
Darth Vader: You cannot hide forever, Luke.

Luke Skywalker: I will not fight you.

Darth Vader: Give yourself to the Dark Side. It is the only way you can save your friends. Yes, your thoughts betray you. Your feelings for them are strong. Especially for... sister. So, you have a twin sister. Your feelings have now betrayed her, too. Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the Dark Side... then perhaps she will!

Luke Skywalker: [igniting light saber, screams] NEVER!
and

Quote
Luke: Never. I'll never turn to the Dark Side. You've failed, your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me.

The Emperor: [angry] So be it... Jedi!


... and I can't believe I'm arguing any of this.  My sole argument was that the director didn't do a good job with the story telling unless the director was, to some extent, trying to troll the part of the fanbase that wanted seat of the pants swashbuckling and magical destined to be great heroes/heroines.  You don't have to spend 20 minutes giving Holdo a back story, just a "Poe-not-on screen" scene were it's obvious that she's in charge and has a plan.  Otherwise, you as the director, are setting Poe up to look like a dick.  Since Poe is the Han stand-in here, that's kind of anti-Star Wars.

I didn't want to hate movie, I really had no expectations.  I thought the cinematography and action scenes were good. I was just never drawn into the story/frequently reminded that I was watching a movie.
eldaec
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Reply #983 on: July 05, 2018, 07:14:37 PM

I mean, I'm not going to comment on the first three quarters of that, because it is mad.



But I am going to add, Poe is not the new Han.

Finn is the new Han, Poe is fairly obviously the new Leia.



As for complaining that a character you like sometimes acts like a dick, you are literally the guy the article I linked is writing about.

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MediumHigh
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Reply #984 on: July 05, 2018, 07:48:12 PM

I don't know how or why people think that the force is specific to bloodline. But your wrong. I mean epic reading comprehension wrong. The skywalkers are special because daddy skywalker was a jedi. And he had a kid. Something Jedi's don't do because force sensitive can be passed down to their children and the whole point of Jedi training is that YOUR NOT BORN WITH POWER. Not because you don't have it, force sensitivity is a 1:100000 mutation in any given population, but because you have to obtain focus and understanding to use it. Its the PROCESS that matters. Ignoring the process purely in favor of your natural talents is hubris and that was the problem in the original trilogy that Obi Wan and Yoda kept hinting at with Vader. And why they assumed he fell.

This is what makes discussing TFA and TLJ so frustrating. Because its one thing for the directors not to give a shit about Star Wars lore and cannon. Why the fuck not. Their only paid to make star wars movies so fans can mindless buy their new shiny Disney books, toys, video games?  why so serious?

But its downright sad when people want to argue from the position of the idiots who don't give a fuck how any of this actually works. Even if you knew nothing else about star wars but the original triology why would you think bloodlines is the focus of this series when the most powerful characters are a bunch of old people who went through decades of training.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 08:11:30 PM by MediumHigh »

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Reply #985 on: July 05, 2018, 11:11:07 PM

I mean, I'm not going to comment on the first three quarters of that, because it is mad.



But I am going to add, Poe is not the new Han.

Finn is the new Han, Poe is fairly obviously the new Leia.



As for complaining that a character you like sometimes acts like a dick, you are literally the guy the article I linked is writing about.

del toro is the new han

both sides are the same, bruh

star wars sucks
IainC
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Reply #986 on: July 06, 2018, 03:30:12 AM


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Reply #987 on: July 06, 2018, 05:29:29 AM

I have tried to watch this twice on Netflix.  Once I get to the point where the women who is very annoying and Finn casually leave a ship that is under attach but seems to miraculously be able to withstand the attack of a all those star destroyers and go find a hacker in a casino. (don't even get me started on the casual conversation with Maz while shes under fire). 

This movie is just generic Disney bad. 

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Jeff Kelly
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Reply #988 on: July 06, 2018, 05:32:31 AM

The original Star Wars (A new hope) was heavily inspired by Lucas' love of Kurosawa and Japanese cinema and the philosophical core of the whole martial arts and Wu Xia genre is that the supernatual feats performed therein are the result of a single-minded life-long dedication to a craft, theoretically attainable by all that subject themselves to those rrigors, and not because of talent or birthright. They often feature protagonists that come from lower classes and don't have the privilege of being born into the bloodline of a Samurai/Shogun or Chinese nobility and achieve their feats by essentially dedicating their life to imrpoving. The whole genre also always includes the theme of responsibility for the greater good in that the value of those powers should be to use it for the benefit of the people or for physical and spiritual self-improvement and enlightenment. A person dedicated to the craft could even transcend physical reality. The whole Wu Xia/martial arts genre is at its core also aspirational, which makes sense given the socio-cultural background in both Japan and China at the time the genre became popular.

The genre never explains what mechanisms or powers are responsible for the martial artist to be able to transcend the physical world and become supernatural, for obvious reasons. Reasons which Lucas unfortunately never understood. Lucas unfortunately never got a lot of the philosophical underpinnings, cultural context and subleties of Kurosawa's work in particular and the martial arts genre in general and also retconned almost all of it later anyway once it became clear that Star Wars could be a massive franchise.

I liked that TFA scrapped all of Lucas' bullshit and reverted the force back to its status of "Space Magic" and powers that could be attained by everyone not just Skywalkers. I especially liked the scene where Kylo Ren descends onto the battlefield in the Imperial shuttle because his presence both "awakens" Rey's powers and Finn's individuality (before that event he's just a mindless drone with a code for a name).

I even liked the twist in the formula in that Kylo Ren is not struggling with falling prey to the dark side but instead that he's fighting to not fall prey to the light side. I felt that there was a core of an idea there where both Finn and Rey would become force users, representing different aspects of the force (and different story arcs)

Then Snoke and the beautiful british Emo Space Nazis happened and that movie completely flew off the rails. That was the point where I realized that no one - and especially not JJ Abrams - had any clue how to write a competent Star Wars story let alone a trilogy spanning story arc.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 05:35:20 AM by Jeff Kelly »
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #989 on: July 06, 2018, 05:36:38 AM

Also the people who wrote that manifesto have a poor grasp of grammar and are also massive entitled tools.
eldaec
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Reply #990 on: July 06, 2018, 07:55:35 AM

Also the wood texture background gives it a bad 90s Web design vibe that says an awful lot about the likely demographic.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
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eldaec
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Reply #991 on: July 06, 2018, 08:02:06 AM

Not to mention the choice of a serif font, on anything intended to be read on a screen, in 2018.

And if they are designing anything to be read on paper, they clearly don't know star wars at all.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
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Selby
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Reply #992 on: July 06, 2018, 08:04:50 AM

Finally saw this the other day. Honestly I don’t get all the hate, it wasn’t the best movie ever, episode 4 or 5 or even TFA, but it wasn’t awful (prequels... Jedi with Lucas’ edits). I was entertained despite questioning some of the motives of the leaders, I could at least suspend enough belief to get what they were going for without saying “hey, wait a minute...”

That’s just me though. Not going to wade through 500+ pages of internet nerd fights to find out why I should hate it more ;-)
HaemishM
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Reply #993 on: July 06, 2018, 09:29:23 AM

Previous Star Wars movies (which is the only goddamn thing that matters when discussing the latest movie - fuck any of this wiki/novels/interviews bullshit - a movie audience can't be expected to know or give a shit about these things) have hinted very strongly that being strong with the Force does not REQUIRE it be passed down by bloodlines but at the same time, it's been pretty much the story of how one goddamn bloodline whose members all had strong connections to the Force fucked up the Galaxy. So it's certainly reasonable for the average movie goer to think Rey would be of a Force sensitive bloodline being as how she's been clearly the center of the story. The existence of Ben Solo as Kylo Ren would also make a reasonable moviegoer (so not a Star Wars nerd) think that bloodlines may not be the only determinate factors in Force sensitivity and power but that they certainly CAN BE.

However, I still don't have any problem with Rey not being anybody important's bloodline (whether that gets retconned out in the next movie or not). That actually was one of the few expectation subversions that didn't bother me at all.

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Reply #994 on: July 06, 2018, 09:49:13 AM

I didn't mind it when I saw it at launch. Some parts bothered me (Jesus Leia) but overall it was enjoyable. I tried watching it recently and realized it really is not a very good movie or story. EXTREME Star Wars turned up to 11.

The idea of Star Wars is so much better than the implementation.
eldaec
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Reply #995 on: July 06, 2018, 10:42:17 AM

It was certainly reasonable for an audience member to think Rey might be the child of someone we know.

But it is absurd to think she must be.

And much more satisfying that she isn't.

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Typhon
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Reply #996 on: July 06, 2018, 12:01:05 PM

Life long effort of study... except for the kid at the end of TLJ who pulls the broom to him with no training what-so-ever.  And all the kids that Anakin kills - who all have natural aptitude, which is why they are at jedi day care.  It's like none of you watch the movies.

What the fuck are y'all smoking?
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #997 on: July 06, 2018, 12:34:18 PM

.
Life long effort of study... except for the kid at the end of TLJ who pulls the broom to him with no training what-so-ever.  And all the kids that Anakin kills - who all have natural aptitude, which is why they are at jedi day care.  It's like none of you watch the movies.

What the fuck are y'all smoking?

I was specifically talking about Star Wars, the 1977 movie (later renamed to Star Wars Episode 4: A New Hope) its themes and the sources of inspirations Lucas had used for that movie. You could extend that to The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi as well. Not only does Lucas borrow heavily from Akira Kurosawa, he also draws a lot of inspiration from the Samurai/Martial arts cinema of Japan.

That's why the original trilogy is permeated by themes that are common in martial arts cinema and Japanese mythology. Either by design or by accident. (Going by what we know of Lucas its probably by accident). Star Wars is a hero's journey borrowing heavily from contemporary Japanese cinema and both the hero's journey and Asian martial arts movies rely on the idea that with dedication and focus even the most lowly peasant from the most remote backwater place in the universe can transcend his destiny and overcome evil.

I frankly don't give a rats ass about what Lucas did in the prequels because by that time he had retconned almost everything about Star Wars and its creation to better fit its blockbuster and merchandise model

Turning a classic aspirational story into a bloodline and nobility dynasty saga only shows that neither prequel trilogy Lucas nor the writers on the new trilogy get what made the original trilogy work.
Typhon
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Reply #998 on: July 06, 2018, 01:14:03 PM

[snip]

Turning a classic aspirational story into a bloodline and nobility dynasty saga only shows that neither prequel trilogy Lucas nor the writers on the new trilogy get what made the original trilogy work.

I'm in complete agreement with this.  This was the point that I was trying to make (apparently very poorly) - the way the movies are presented and executed, no one should be surprised that some people walk away thinking that this is a bloodlines story.  Anyone getting pissy that someone (apparently mistakenly) thinks this is a bloodline saga needs to up their meds.

And just to re-iterate, I have no skin in this game because of the prequels killed any interest I had (... ok, to be completely honest eventually all this crap comes on netflix and I can't help but watch the continuing train wreck).  I'm just kind of pissed that so many of you react so strongly to what the movies pretty clearly show.  Ren, for instance.  Yet another special person that doesn't have to train at all, in any way.  Saying that I'm cherry-picking when virtually every character we've seen in the movies jump from novice to adept in two scenes (without painting a single fence) seems a bit dishonest.

And with that I guess I'll stop.  I'm really not trolling or trying to convince anyone of anything except, "really, you can't see why people might think this is a bloodline saga?"
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #999 on: July 06, 2018, 01:34:44 PM

It was certainly reasonable for an audience member to think Rey might be the child of someone we know.

But it is absurd to think she must be.

And much more satisfying that she isn't.

To me it was the movie taking directly to the fans and not itself.  There is maybe one line or two in the first movie about her parents, she by and large does not seem to care about finding them. Then in the second movie it's this big unknowable question that gets answered.  It was all the star wars fans who get wondering about her parents, wouldn't stop posting online about it.  The second movie just seemed to want to shut them up in a way that wasn't very consistent with the first one.

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TheWalrus
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Reply #1000 on: July 06, 2018, 02:07:06 PM

  There is maybe one line or two in the first movie about her parents, she by and large does not seem to care about finding them.

Blink.

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Threash
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Reply #1001 on: July 06, 2018, 02:22:56 PM

  There is maybe one line or two in the first movie about her parents, she by and large does not seem to care about finding them.

Blink.

Yeah... I don't get how anyone that actually saw the movie can possibly think that.

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jgsugden
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Reply #1002 on: July 06, 2018, 03:45:34 PM

If we're going to start arguing based upon facts rather than just what we want to make up, 90% of the threads are going to unravel.

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Riggswolfe
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Reply #1003 on: July 06, 2018, 04:27:35 PM

 There is maybe one line or two in the first movie about her parents, she by and large does not seem to care about finding them.

Blink.

Yeah... I don't get how anyone that actually saw the movie can possibly think that.

What you guys? It's not like she's obsessed with returning to Jakku because she thinks her parents will return for her. It's not like her lightsaber vision shows the moment she's abandoned implying it's a very important moment for her. It's not like half of the time when people meet her you can almost hear them asking "who are you?" in their minds, except for the little pirate alien with the goggles who explicitly asks Han who she is. It's not like Kylo Ren reacts strongly to being told a mystery girl took the droid they were after, implying he knows who she is and is quite worried about it.

No, this only came up in The Last Jedi because Rian Johnson noticed fans on the internet were obsessing over it. Clearly, if you watch the movie, his primary concern is giving the fans exactly what they want.

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Jeff Kelly
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Reply #1004 on: July 06, 2018, 04:58:57 PM

I read that as threash ans Walrus disagreeing with Lakovfor reasons you pointed out.
TheWalrus
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Reply #1005 on: July 06, 2018, 05:08:25 PM

He's also being snarky and pointing out what should be obvious to anyone with a pulse who watched the movie.

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grebo
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Reply #1006 on: July 06, 2018, 07:57:03 PM

I watched this again, somehow made it through the whole thing.  Barely.

There's 2 themes.

First, mocking the Star Wars fanbase and calling them stupid.

Second, empowering the "youth of today" or whatever to seize their political destiny.  They have the power to change the world.  Ugh.

Garbage.

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Sir T
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Reply #1007 on: July 06, 2018, 08:07:08 PM

I watched this again, somehow made it through the whole thing.  Barely.

There's 2 themes.

First, mocking the Star Wars fanbase and calling them stupid.

Second, empowering the "youth of today" or whatever to seize their political destiny.  They have the power to change the world.  Ugh.

Garbage.

By the way, you shot second.  why so serious?

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jgsugden
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Reply #1008 on: July 06, 2018, 08:29:43 PM

Stop arguing about this shit and go see Ant-man and Wasp so we can switch to arguing over Marvel.

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Reply #1009 on: July 07, 2018, 12:16:09 AM

marvel movies are entertaining though

this was uh

not
TheWalrus
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Reply #1010 on: July 07, 2018, 02:25:19 AM

Lot of people enjoyed it. You clearly didn't. Maybe Star Wars just isn't your thing?

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TheWalrus
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Reply #1011 on: July 09, 2018, 12:05:59 AM


Paelos: Somebody find that post where I declared Seattle dead, because those fuckers are NFL cockroaches in the NFC.
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