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Author Topic: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi  (Read 248143 times)
jgsugden
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Reply #735 on: April 01, 2018, 03:14:04 PM

Good thing they never were able to get a significantly sized ship near the second Deathstar or the Starkillerbase.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
eldaec
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Reply #736 on: April 01, 2018, 03:56:15 PM

People on this very website wondered out loud about the star destroyer wreck on jakku and why it hadn't destroyed  the planet. At least those people were half joking.

There are legitimate things to moan about in tLJ. I disagree with most of them. But 'why wasn't military tactic x not used in previous film y' is a fucking stupid question of the highest grade. It is only a remotely sensible complaint if you hate all of star wars for not being hard SF.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Goumindong
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Reply #737 on: April 01, 2018, 04:37:31 PM

Good thing they never were able to get a significantly sized ship near the second Deathstar or the Starkillerbase.

They were not. Like... did you watch RotJ?
Draegan
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Reply #738 on: April 01, 2018, 05:25:03 PM

Maybe this Star Wars episode wasn't meant for the old generation.  Maybe it's just a fun movie for the younger crowd?



That's hilarious but the sad truth is that adult collectors are the ones keeping toy lines alive, kids mostly don't play with toys past the age of 4 or so they are too busy with ipads and videogames.

Have you seen all the toys my 5 year old plays with? Do you have kids?
Malakili
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Reply #739 on: April 01, 2018, 05:36:25 PM

Phantom Menace is so much better, pod racing and all, than TFA was. Yeah I said it.


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Khaldun
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Reply #740 on: April 01, 2018, 06:46:41 PM

I'd pay 100 bucks to a Kickstarter for someone making a space opera that didn't require the audience to have any imagination or sense of general fun, with the requirement that it have 2x the infodump exposition for the action in every action scene and require the audience to read a general treatise on physics in the film universe prior to watching.
Threash
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Reply #741 on: April 01, 2018, 07:27:08 PM

Maybe this Star Wars episode wasn't meant for the old generation.  Maybe it's just a fun movie for the younger crowd?



That's hilarious but the sad truth is that adult collectors are the ones keeping toy lines alive, kids mostly don't play with toys past the age of 4 or so they are too busy with ipads and videogames.

Have you seen all the toys my 5 year old plays with? Do you have kids?

Ok 5 or 6 still play with toys, but kids the age of the ones in the skit wouldn't be caught dead with them.

I am the .00000001428%
jgsugden
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Reply #742 on: April 01, 2018, 09:17:44 PM

Good thing they never were able to get a significantly sized ship near the second Deathstar or the Starkillerbase.

They were not. Like... did you watch RotJ?

They jumped a dang fleet adjacent to the thing.  Once the shield was down, the easiest way to destoy that thing would have been to jump a sizeable ship into it.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
SurfD
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Reply #743 on: April 02, 2018, 12:12:21 AM

Yes u guys must have liked the midichlorian scene. “But the movies never told me what exactly the force was and I cannot I fed anything on my own unless it’s explained to me in as if it were science”
Actually, no.  I am pretty sure that the Midichlorian scene was almost universally shit on by pretty much every starwars fan out there.   It was basically the polar opposite of the Hyperspace Attack scene, in that it explained something that did not need that explanation.  In fact, the explanation straight up shit on all the built up mysticism surrounding the force that had been established by all the preceding movies.  Midichloreians should never have been a thing.  Conversely, hyperspace ramming attack pretty much demands an explanation because if such a thing is possible then things like Hyperspace high mass torpedoes as ship killer weapons should have been a thing from like, day one.  I mean, if you can put a hyperdrive on an X-wing, you can put a hyperdrive on a several thousand tonne slug of metal and just fling it at a star destroyer instead of launching a fleet of x-wings for it's cannons to chew up.

Darwinism is the Gateway Science.
Draegan
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Reply #744 on: April 03, 2018, 06:25:59 AM

The scene looked cool. That's all I care About.
Threash
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Reply #745 on: April 03, 2018, 07:03:53 AM

The scene looked cool. That's all I care About.

Yup, I am baffled that people want it to go any further than that or expect a detailed technical explanation. It looked cool, literally the main reason for absolutely everything in Star Wars. Why did the rebels have to fly along the death star trench to shoot a torpedo at an exhaust port? IT DOESN'T MATTER, IT WAS COOL.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 07:08:15 AM by Threash »

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Khaldun
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Reply #746 on: April 03, 2018, 07:28:01 AM

Why didn't the Death Star, being an expensive all-purpose done-in-one dominate-the-galaxy weapon, have whatever weapons it takes to blow away small fast snub fighters? I mean, fuck, it's not like the use of those fighters was a big surprise--they were a standard part of space warfare in that galaxy at least back to the late Republic. Why didn't the Death Star have a fucking SWARM of Tie Fighters instead of Darth Vader and his two wingmen? Did Han and Luke blow up the only other ones when escaping? Speaking of escaping, didn't those Tie Fighters that were supposed to let them go actually get pretty close to blowing up the Millennium Falcon? Why did Princess Leia take the Millennium Falcon back to Yavin IV when she suspected they were being tracked?

Why isn't the Empire better at searching a known smuggler's vessel, particularly given that Darth Vader sensed Obi-Wan? Han seems pretty careful about engaging the hyperdrive back then, why does he get as sloppy about it later without worry about the consequences? If Imperial Star Destroyers can't stop the Millennium Falcon blasting off from Mos Eisley, what's the point of having them hanging around Tatooine in the first place? It's not like Han uses any particular subterfuge.

Why does it take hours to go through hyperspace sometimes and minutes other times, even if we can see on the maps that SW creators have made that the locations involved are sometimes half or more of the galaxy's breadth (in either case)? If all locations in the galaxy are effectively only minutes apart, why is anything "remote"? Why can't the Empire, the Rebellion, the First Order, etc., effectively assemble their entire fleet resources at a single location without any prior planning or coordination given that all locations are only minutes away and all communications are instantaneous? What would be the risk in concentrating your entire military capacity in a single location within fifteen minutes of getting the alert if you could be somewhere else a few hours later?

Are there any energetic or economic limitations on fleet travel? TLJ is the first time we've ever really heard anyone worrying about running out of fuel. Fuel supplies must be nearly infinite--we've never heard anyone worry about having a fleet that's too big or a fleet that's hard to supply.

------------

SW's worldbuilding is in the look of things, the feel of it--and in cool things like lightsabers. If you want it to work in a way that's more coherent, consistent, etc., you're in the wrong universe altogether. Best you give up and disavow all of the films. Go watch the Expanse--that's pretty consistently thought out.
BobtheSomething
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Reply #747 on: April 03, 2018, 07:59:32 AM

The scene looked cool. That's all I care About.

Some people have higher standards.
Threash
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Reply #748 on: April 03, 2018, 08:07:01 AM

The scene looked cool. That's all I care About.

Some people have higher standards.

Some people are dumb twats watching the wrong series then.

I am the .00000001428%
Sir T
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Reply #749 on: April 03, 2018, 08:11:26 AM

Why didn't the Death Star, being an expensive all-purpose done-in-one dominate-the-galaxy weapon, have whatever weapons it takes to blow away small fast snub fighters?

They explain that away by one sentence saying its defenses were geared around fending off a major assault. So it had big Battleship guns. Which makes sense if you are used to looking  at real world vessels in WW2 that had loads of big stonking guns but fuck all anti-aircraft weapons. No excuse for not having 200 Tie Fighters however, or at least having a couple of Star Destroyers stuffed with them as escorts. The only reason for the trench shit is to shelter yourself from the guns on the surface.

In one of the books they jumped a hundred X-wings onto a Star Destroyer and launched 200 Torps at it. Its guns took out 100 of the torps but the other 100 blew it apart. There is an awful lot of Sci fi that makes zero sense from a Tactics point of view.

Also, I remember the years long attempts on this forum to try and pretend the prequels were not a load of horseshit. So I am naturally suspicious of all attempts to cannonise these movies. No I haven't seen them, because I don't want to. If you enjoyed them, cool, but when it comes to Star Wars and Trek I don't believe a word of anything said online anymore.

*Cries on his copy of the original unedited ESB.*

Hic sunt dracones.
Gimfain
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Reply #750 on: April 03, 2018, 09:23:26 AM

Watched the movie yesterday, it wasn't good and I can't be arsed about star wars anymore.

When you ask for a miracle, you have to be prepared to believe in it or you'll miss it when it comes
eldaec
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Reply #751 on: April 03, 2018, 09:50:07 AM

The death star was also being sabotaged by its own engineers - maybe they removed most of the defences from the trench.

Maybe in 2058 at the release of Star Wars Story XX we'll discover Snoke's chief engineer secretly built a flaw into the 'stop dudes hyperjumping into me box' on the Snoke Destroyer so it fails at the start of the third act. Maybe a plucky gang of bothans sneaked this information out to cgi Laura Dern just before tLJ begins.

There you go I fixed Star Wars for you - no need to thank me.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Khaldun
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Reply #752 on: April 03, 2018, 11:35:12 AM

I mean, if you want to work at it even a little, it's not hard:

a) ramming is a thing in the SW universe; we've seen ships badly damaged and destroyed by both accidental and purposeful collisions. One would have to infer that the major reason the Rebellion doesn't just send kamikaze pilots for every attack is simultaneously a moral objection to doing so and that competent pilots don't grow on trees--it's made clear multiple times that not just anyone can jump in an X-Wing and fly it successfully

b) hyperspace jumps are said repeatedly to be dangerous and that the dangers involved are specifically about transitioning out of hyperspace into physical objects; "that would end your trip real quick" seems to imply that it's the hyperjumping ship that's in danger, but what if it's a thing you avoid because it may also badly damage the object that you transition into?

c) capital ships for the Rebellion/Resistance are implied to be extremely precious and indispensible to its military strategy. We don't know if the New Republic had capital ships or where they might be after the destruction of their capital, but the Resistance is clearly still built around the idea of potentially challenging the First Order fleet head-to-head. So in both cases where military commanders might have used the "crash a really big ship into a really big ship at hyperspeed" tactic, the weaker force didn't have any ships to spare. This includes capital ship-sized dummy objects--it's clearly the scale of the ship that's the first and foremost issue. Just as it would be for the US military, for example, if we said: build an aircraft carrier only just make it an engine and the metal, don't build an elaborate control room, guns, berths and a galley for the crew, etc. That doesn't make a ship the size of an aircraft carrier all that much cheaper to build, it's the metal for the frame and the internal structure and the engine that's the expensive thing.

The Imperial Navy/First Order seems to have ships to spare, so they could arguably throw suicide destroyers at any enemy. But maybe they don't have ships to spare--maybe all those ships are needed in order to retain an iron grip on all those star systems--and maybe the support of the military is the major source of political support for the Emperor/Supreme Leader Snoke. Also they don't seem to be quite as fast as the Rebellion/Resistance capital ships, and arguably being fast enough to get in close ramming range is also necessary.

I mean, if you really want to work your way through it, you can. If you don't want to, you're either lazy or you never liked Star Wars much in the first place.
TheWalrus
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Reply #753 on: April 03, 2018, 12:28:21 PM

The rebels are out of money and low on people. That's not really hard to discern. Resources are precious, and they got squished in TLJ, just like any similar rebellion would in the real world.

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Sir T
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Reply #754 on: April 03, 2018, 12:54:04 PM

I cared enough at one time to check whether the Super Star Destroyer was 8 or 11 times as long as a stander SD. It's 8, by the way. The whole 11 times was based on a misprint in some book, that SW nuts ran with because somehow only 8 times longer was insufficiently awesome.

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Trippy
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Reply #755 on: April 03, 2018, 12:58:05 PM

Or maybe somebody was a Spinal Tap fan.
BobtheSomething
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Reply #756 on: April 03, 2018, 01:11:28 PM

I cared enough at one time to check whether the Super Star Destroyer was 8 or 11 times as long as a stander SD. It's 8, by the way. The whole 11 times was based on a misprint in some book, that SW nuts ran with because somehow only 8 times longer was insufficiently awesome.

I remember reading a book about the model making and one of the designers stated that they were making the Star Destroyers a mile long, the super star destroyers ten miles long, the Death Star 100 miles across and the second one 500 miles.  They really seemed to like nice, round numbers.
TheWalrus
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Reply #757 on: April 03, 2018, 02:24:31 PM

Which would be an amazing feat. The raw materials alone would be staggering, let alone the design and functionality working well enough that service maintenance would be possible.

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Riggswolfe
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Reply #758 on: April 03, 2018, 02:49:36 PM

Why didn't the Death Star have a fucking SWARM of Tie Fighters instead of Darth Vader and his two wingmen? Did Han and Luke blow up the only other ones when escaping? Speaking of escaping, didn't those Tie Fighters that were supposed to let them go actually get pretty close to blowing up the Millennium Falcon? Why did Princess Leia take the Millennium Falcon back to Yavin IV when she suspected they were being tracked?


This one has actually been explained in one of the novels based on, I think, a scene that was scripted but either not filmed or edited out. It basically boils down to Tarkin going "They have 30 ships? Against this station? Screw it, let the guns take them out. I'm not wasting fighters on them." Tarkin was incredibly arrogant about how powerful the Death Star was.

Vader explicitly ordered his own personal squadron to go after them which is what that small scene in the hallway is all about.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
jgsugden
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Reply #759 on: April 03, 2018, 03:28:53 PM

The rebels are out of money and low on people. That's not really hard to discern. Resources are precious, and they got squished in TLJ, just like any similar rebellion would in the real world.
Which is why jumping one asteroid with an engine on it into the Star Destroyer, rather than assaulting it witha fleet that gets blown to its in a lengthy battle, would have made more sense.

Trying to excuse the logic failure with bad hypothesis is just ... sad.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #760 on: April 03, 2018, 03:51:55 PM

So how exactly would you get an asteroid with enough mass close enough to pull off such a maneuver without it getting immediately blasted into dust?

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Draegan
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Reply #761 on: April 03, 2018, 03:56:29 PM

Star Wars tech fights are dumber than star trek tech fights.
Trippy
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Reply #762 on: April 03, 2018, 04:00:56 PM

It has a hyperdrive too, duh! Just take it out of hyperspace right next to the Star Destroyer. Or heck you don't even need to take it out of hyperspace. Just plot a hyperspace course straight through the Star Destroyer. Hmm....
Khaldun
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Reply #763 on: April 03, 2018, 04:18:04 PM

A lot of the bigger ships in the SW universe have shapes that seem to privilege aerodynamics despite that not being an issue ostensibly, right? If you've got the engines, they can move any mass, right? Except well, the ramming/hyperspace maneuver seems to depend on going fast enough prior to hyperspace and getting close enough prior to hyperspace to a big ship to do the damage, so you know, maybe a big rock with an engine can't do the trick.

Seriously, don't fucking mix mass drivers with a science fantasy universe. You want to wank about mass drivers, don't watch the beloved ESB, which has asteroids doing shit that no universe with even remotely respectable astrophysics would allow. You want a mass driver universe, go watch Babylon 5 or The Expanse, where it makes marginal sense.
Threash
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Reply #764 on: April 03, 2018, 05:18:23 PM


Trying to excuse the logic failure with bad hypothesis is just ... sad.

Needing a technical explanation for a cool star wars scene is sad.

I am the .00000001428%
TheWalrus
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Reply #765 on: April 03, 2018, 11:31:57 PM

The rebels are out of money and low on people. That's not really hard to discern. Resources are precious, and they got squished in TLJ, just like any similar rebellion would in the real world.
Which is why jumping one asteroid with an engine on it into the Star Destroyer, rather than assaulting it witha fleet that gets blown to its in a lengthy battle, would have made more sense.

Trying to excuse the logic failure with bad hypothesis is just ... sad.

Noop. Limited fucking resources. That drive could be better used on an actual ship rather than a throwaway single target eliminator. Just because you want a carrier doesn't mean you have the vespene gas.

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Teleku
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Reply #766 on: April 04, 2018, 01:00:08 AM

Christ, this thread.  Is it really so hard for you guys to understand that this just felt out of place?  It was taking Hard Sci-if and injecting it into a very soft sci-fi setting.  On top of that, it was a lazy Deus Ex way out of a problem they pulled out of their ass that went against all previously established physics in the world, keeping on the theme this entire script was lazy as fuck asshalf shit I’d expect from network TV.

Yet you guys seem intent of having arguments with voices in your head.  Khaldun has written multiple gigantic posts about why using suicide ships would not be a good tactic, even though nobody is calling for that.  So, no idea whats going on there.

Then this
Needing a technical explanation for a cool star wars scene is sad.
When the entire argument is how dumb it is to bring in hard sci-fi technical shit into Star Wars, which you guys are doing endlessly to defend this scene, again missing the point of why it was off.
Noop. Limited fucking resources. That drive could be better used on an actual ship rather than a throwaway single target eliminator. Just because you want a carrier doesn't mean you have the vespene gas.
And then things like this that make me wonder if we really did watch the same movie.  The ship crash took out a massive hunk of their fleet, not a single target.  Ignore the damage to the mothership, 10-15 Star destroyers went down with it.  That ship never in its lifetime would destroy that many ships, so that was the most value possible for using that hyper drive.  Again, if it had just ramed into the giant ship, took a hunk of it out in a big cool explosion, that would have been totally cool!  But instead, they needed it to magically wipe out most of the fleet so they could Deus Ex their way into an escape, breaking immersion heavily in the process.

I just find it amazing that there is such a hard fight to defend every. Single. Aspect. Of this movie.  For me it was a death by a thousand cuts.  Lots of dumb little things that added up to a big mess.  Yet even the most minor of those criticisms I’m seeing you guys defend unto the death.  This is mind boggling.  I can’t think of any movies I loved that I would put this much effort into defending.

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Rishathra
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Reply #767 on: April 04, 2018, 07:01:12 AM

As someone who enjoyed this movie, I also have to say, "Christ, this thread."  There's that poster whose name is shorthand for 'breaking up quotes into a thousand pieces and arguing the points of every one,' but I forgot the name.  I will admit that I want to do it to your post, Teleku.  Short version:  all the complaints you are making about the people defending this movie, I have the same about people attacking this movie.

Okay, I'm going to do one, just one.  Sorry.

Quote from: Teleku
Is it really so hard for you guys to understand that this just felt out of place?  It was taking Hard Sci-if and injecting it into a very soft sci-fi setting.

The movie isn't doing that.  YOU are doing that.  (I was about to launch into a super-detailed rant that said the same thing, but used more words.  I stopped myself about three sentences in.)

Here is where EVERYONE should have left it.

"Eh, that scene felt off to me.  It brings up certain technical issues that don't jive with the universe."
"Eh, I can think of a couple of ways that it would make sense, but they are a bit of a stretch, and I can see why you would have an issue with it.  I thought it had enough Rule of Cool to counteract the issue."
"Eh, fair enough."
"Fair enough."
* both of us take a sip off our pint *
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HaemishM
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Reply #768 on: April 04, 2018, 07:35:05 AM

So how exactly would you get an asteroid with enough mass close enough to pull off such a maneuver without it getting immediately blasted into dust?

You hitch it to an African swallow.  why so serious?

Sir T
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Reply #769 on: April 04, 2018, 07:37:19 AM

Is that a European or... oh.

Hic sunt dracones.
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