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Author Topic: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi  (Read 37713 times)
eldaec
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Reply #420 on: December 26, 2017, 05:36:20 AM

He explicitly said he wanted to destroy both.

I don't really buy the idea that this was trying anything interesting with light/dark. But it was saying the jedi don't own the light and the FO are not sole suppliers of the dark.

I took it that both Rey and Ben were still up for grabs by the light or dark until the throne room scene. At that point they were forced to chose their alignment with a couple of lines of dialogue in classic bioware style.

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HaemishM
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Reply #421 on: December 26, 2017, 09:32:13 AM

The point of the Casino scene is that it shows that the First Order and the Resistance are both being manipulated by a powerful, wealthy elite.

That might be a great direction to take the franchise... only there has never, ever, not in 7 previous movies EVER been any indication that was the case. Never. Palpatine never seemed to need the wealthy elite to create the clone troopers. Never once was it mentioned that anyone needed a wealthy elite to create weapons of mass destruction. In the prequels, we saw many weapons factories and never once did we hear about them being funded by a wealthy elite. Again, it's all well and good if this is the first of a series or a standalone movie, but this is building off a legacy of many many movies and TV series. Dropping that in now, especially in a setting that really doesn't feel like Star Wars (like not even night clubs on Coruscant had that kind of aesthetic) is jarring and doesn't really serve the story well at all.

Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #422 on: December 26, 2017, 09:36:43 AM

Taking prequels as canon means a whole lot of shit that doesn't make ANY sense is part of the lore.  It may be late in the game to start adding more depth to the universe but I welcome it. Also the whole casino sequence was done badly but I appreciate what they were trying to do with it.

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HaemishM
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Reply #423 on: December 26, 2017, 09:43:33 AM

Taking prequels as canon means a whole lot of shit that doesn't make ANY sense is part of the lore. 

While I agree wholeheartedly with that, Disney had every opportunity to shitcan that entire bit of lore and they chose to keep it.

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Reply #424 on: December 26, 2017, 10:00:23 AM

Yes.  But even more than that.  I think it's a rejection of the Light/Dark dynamic.  Velorath says that he's supposed to become uber-dark after killing Snoke...I think he's rejecting the whole system.  Kylo killing Snoke isn't about dark or light, and I don't recall Kylo ever mentioning the dark side to Rey in that scene at all.  He wants to destroy the past, burn it all, and create something new in its ruins.  He pretty much says it; you have to kill the past, etc.  Funny, too, since Snoke actually gave him the idea at the top of the movie; it's what drives him to destroy his mask.
I'd maybe buy into that interpretation a little bit more if Kylo wanted to destroy the First Order also and wasn't just hellbent on murdering the Resistance and Luke. He's not rejecting anything he hadn't already rejected aside from Snoke himself, and all he's done there is usurped Snoke's place in things and continued on with exactly what Snoke was already doing.

His character is largely unchanged after killing Snoke and he even still comes across like the same unhinged child trying to act like he's an adult. It's just that throughout the movie we've been teased with Rey sensing the good still in him which again is meant to evoke Luke's feelings about Vader in ROTJ in order to subvert that later. Kylo's whole character arc in this movie is that we're led to think he might change and then he doesn't. Rey gets that arc as well.

This movie has big themes it's trying to get across (all of which I think are outright stated by characters at various times) but I don't think it carries any of them through to successful conclusions.
Agreed.  The movie can't make up its mind and has a hard time staying consistent.  Not only the Snoke thing, but as others mentioned, him killing Han was suppose to be the big choice that sealed the deal Dark Side for him.  But wait, now he is still struggling yet again on killing Leia and has to make a choice?  Struggles again in the throne room and makes a choice?  I look forward to when he has to yet again make a dramatic choice between on if he will finally go light or dark in the next film.  Several times.

The point of the Casino scene is that it shows that the First Order and the Resistance are both being manipulated by a powerful, wealthy elite.

That might be a great direction to take the franchise... only there has never, ever, not in 7 previous movies EVER been any indication that was the case. Never. Palpatine never seemed to need the wealthy elite to create the clone troopers. Never once was it mentioned that anyone needed a wealthy elite to create weapons of mass destruction. In the prequels, we saw many weapons factories and never once did we hear about them being funded by a wealthy elite. Again, it's all well and good if this is the first of a series or a standalone movie, but this is building off a legacy of many many movies and TV series. Dropping that in now, especially in a setting that really doesn't feel like Star Wars (like not even night clubs on Coruscant had that kind of aesthetic) is jarring and doesn't really serve the story well at all.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly.  Never up until this point has there been any indication that this is the case.  And it would be the dumbest thing ever if they tried to insert heavy handed terrible 1% "rich people really cause all the wars" conspiracy theories into it.  The series is about good/evil fighting at its lightest, and great power politics/ideology at its deepest. 

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #425 on: December 26, 2017, 10:09:14 AM

Agreed.  The movie can't make up its mind and has a hard time staying consistent.  Not only the Snoke thing, but as others mentioned, him killing Han was suppose to be the big choice that sealed the deal Dark Side for him.  But wait, now he is still struggling yet again on killing Leia and has to make a choice? 

I'll nitpick this one a bit just because I prefer the way they did it.  Ren was obviously very troubled by killing Han and it's even mentioned in the film. Also killing a dad you likely blame a lot of shit on, probably for not being around much is way different than killing your mom who you likely have affection for.  Going to the darkside should not be like flipping a switch and suddenly you're slaughtering a room full of younglings so having this slower descent into "the darkside" for me works better.

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Teleku
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Reply #426 on: December 26, 2017, 10:15:22 AM

Eh, I get it, but that's how they always treated it though.  I mean, yeah, prequels suck, but Anakin just snaps there.  Then in RotJ, it was basically portrayed that if Luke killed his father as the emperor was manipulating, he'd fully let the dark side take control of his emotions, become evil, and join with the emperor.  Big sudden choices that control if the dark side takes control of you or not.  They even sort of kept it on with Luke freaking out about how Rei just looked right into the dark side abyss without care.  That's how it takes control of you and makes you evil before you realize it.  Why the Jedi felt they needed to control their emotions so carefully.

Now, if Kylo keeps having to make the Luke Skywalker choice over, and over, and over (and seems to keep choosing wrong), it loses emotional impact, as well as not being very consistent.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 10:19:42 AM by Teleku »

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Velorath
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Reply #427 on: December 26, 2017, 11:23:35 AM

Agreed.  The movie can't make up its mind and has a hard time staying consistent.  Not only the Snoke thing, but as others mentioned, him killing Han was suppose to be the big choice that sealed the deal Dark Side for him.  But wait, now he is still struggling yet again on killing Leia and has to make a choice? 

I'll nitpick this one a bit just because I prefer the way they did it.  Ren was obviously very troubled by killing Han and it's even mentioned in the film. Also killing a dad you likely blame a lot of shit on, probably for not being around much is way different than killing your mom who you likely have affection for.  Going to the darkside should not be like flipping a switch and suddenly you're slaughtering a room full of younglings so having this slower descent into "the darkside" for me works better.

I'm ok with moral ambiguity in SW but I don't think murdering one's dad, no matter how much of an absentee parent he might have been, is one of those grey areas. I realize that's an issue that goes back to Vader's Force equivalent of deathbed repentance after a lifetime of child-killing, planet-exploding evil, but if we have to debate whether or not patricide really marks a commitment to the Dark Side then morality in SW is completely broken.
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Reply #428 on: December 26, 2017, 12:19:23 PM

The real reason Kylo killed Han.


Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
eldaec
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Reply #429 on: December 26, 2017, 01:03:22 PM

I don't think tLJ has any shades of grey in its morality. I don't think it shifts away from a hard light/dark split or introduced any moral ambiguity.

What it does do is acknowledge that organisations like the jedi are not automatically good/bad (not a new thing given the history of the Republic and Empire) and that individuals can switch sides (not a new thing since it is a theme of every single star wars film) and that sometimes people capable of good, also do bad, and vice versa.

It didn't go where I thought it might - into the genuinely grey territory of 'how do we balance the dark and the light' or 'is light always inherently right?' or even 'is an amount of dark ok in service of a greater good?'.

Characters walk a path between light and dark like in every star wars film. But individual actions are always clearly in one column or the other.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 01:11:59 PM by eldaec »

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Riggswolfe
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Reply #430 on: December 26, 2017, 04:54:08 PM



In comparison Ben Solo is none of those things. He isn't the face of the first order, he isn't some wall that our heroes need to overcome. He is what fans often say "a villain in training" or some shyt. From a story telling perspective if that guy isn't who the movie says we should care about than who is? Nobody? Well that's dumb might as well stay home and not watch this shyt. Obviously Snoke is the one who we has the audience to this shyt should be caring about, he turned Ben Solo to the darkside, orchestrated the murder of the new jedi order, and rules the empire v2. Obviously his story and the conflict that comes with overcoming that character is what we're watching these movies for. Well according the The Last Jedi, and the fanboys that's not the case either. So who is providing the conflict that we need so we can have stakes, and tension or drama. Who is the emotional, spiritual and physical threat to our heroes if we already established that Ben Solo is definitely NOT that guy? Nobody you say? Well looks like you failed at movie making, young adult novels for teenage girls to the right you go.

Ben Solo is not Vader, this is true. In fact, his entire arc in this movie was basically about him giving up on that. The moment in the throne room when Snoke flat out tells him A) you'll never be Vader and B) your mask is stupid is a huge turning point. When Kylo smashes his helmet in the elevator it is yet another temper tantrum. But it is also very symbolic. From that moment on Kylo stops trying to live up to the past and his entire focus becomes destroying the past and getting power for himself. Heck, those lines are right there in the trailer. Is it lazy writing to have Kylo explicitly tell us his new motivations? Yeah. Though sadly it is common in Hollywood these days. See: Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 2 for another good (bad) example.

I wasn't watching these movies for Snoke and I don't know anyone who was. True, it's anecdotal and people have different things they want out of the movie. Am I worried Kylo isn't a strong enough threat to give sufficient dramatic conflict in the next movie? Yes I am. I'm worried about the next movie anyway because it's being co-written by the Batman vs Superman guy so if we're unlucky we'll get this:

Rey is about to be killed by Kylo. "Save Leah!"
Kylo: "Why did you say that name?!?!?!"
Finn: "It's her mother's name, she just found out! Hux is holding her hostage."
Kylo turns off saber: "I'll save her, you stop the First Order."

If JJ is smart they'll have it turn out that Snoke was just using a force projection in the throne room like Luke did or he is a Force Spirit that can possess other bodies. I saw a fairly good Youtube video that made the case that Snoke's body was weak and crippled and that he not only knew Kylo was going to attack him but goaded him into it so he could get a new body. The best body would be Kylo's in my opinion. That said, I think we have like a 1% chance this will happen though I've seen JJ do some good writing in the past. (Fringe for example had some great episodes he wrote.)

Anyway, this is my long winded way of saying that I wasn't watching these movies for Snoke anymore than I watched the OT for Palpatine. Or even Vader.


The point of the Casino scene is that it shows that the First Order and the Resistance are both being manipulated by a powerful, wealthy elite.

That might be a great direction to take the franchise... only there has never, ever, not in 7 previous movies EVER been any indication that was the case. Never. Palpatine never seemed to need the wealthy elite to create the clone troopers. Never once was it mentioned that anyone needed a wealthy elite to create weapons of mass destruction. In the prequels, we saw many weapons factories and never once did we hear about them being funded by a wealthy elite. Again, it's all well and good if this is the first of a series or a standalone movie, but this is building off a legacy of many many movies and TV series. Dropping that in now, especially in a setting that really doesn't feel like Star Wars (like not even night clubs on Coruscant had that kind of aesthetic) is jarring and doesn't really serve the story well at all.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly.  Never up until this point has there been any indication that this is the case.  And it would be the dumbest thing ever if they tried to insert heavy handed terrible 1% "rich people really cause all the wars" conspiracy theories into it.  The series is about good/evil fighting at its lightest, and great power politics/ideology at its deepest. 

Arguably in the prequels we do actually see this. The Separatists are almost entirely funded by big companies including, explicitly, a large bank. True, they were all controlled by Palpatine but it is there to some extent. As bad as the writing is, Episode 1 even makes it clear that that first conflict was entirely about money and corporations being pissed about taxes. Episode 2 clearly sets up the other side as large corporate interests getting tired of the Republic telling them what to do. It's somewhat subtle but that's mostly because Lucas was more concerned with "Ani" and Yoda leaping around like an idiot.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #431 on: December 26, 2017, 04:56:20 PM

Accidental doublepost when attempting to edit. Derp!
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 08:48:53 PM by Riggswolfe »

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
HaemishM
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Reply #432 on: December 26, 2017, 05:11:52 PM

Going to make a prediction now. Snoke is actually Kylo Ren's Tyler Durden.  why so serious?

Riggswolfe
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Reply #433 on: December 26, 2017, 08:50:32 PM

Going to make a prediction now. Snoke is actually Kylo Ren's Tyler Durden.  why so serious?

I know you're being silly but I'd love to see the "A Star Wars story" movies really take some risks and branch out. A horror story or a psychological thriller could be interesting if done right. Like, an insane force wielding serial killer hunted by a cynical police detective in the lower levels of Coruscant or something.

Sadly, Disney will just explore the backstories of characters for now. Han, Kenobi, Boba Fett, etc.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
HaemishM
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Reply #434 on: December 26, 2017, 09:19:10 PM

I'm actually only being half silly on that one. If Rian Johnson was doing IX, I'd think it was a distinct possibility. Abrams, however, would never do something that whacked.

Draegan
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Reply #435 on: December 27, 2017, 07:56:13 AM

Eh, I get it, but that's how they always treated it though.  I mean, yeah, prequels suck, but Anakin just snaps there.  Then in RotJ, it was basically portrayed that if Luke killed his father as the emperor was manipulating, he'd fully let the dark side take control of his emotions, become evil, and join with the emperor.  Big sudden choices that control if the dark side takes control of you or not.  They even sort of kept it on with Luke freaking out about how Rei just looked right into the dark side abyss without care.  That's how it takes control of you and makes you evil before you realize it.  Why the Jedi felt they needed to control their emotions so carefully.

Now, if Kylo keeps having to make the Luke Skywalker choice over, and over, and over (and seems to keep choosing wrong), it loses emotional impact, as well as not being very consistent.

Ren thought that killing his dad would just flip a switch and all of his problems would go away. It just created more for him. He was, up until the end ifbth movie, trying to find the one act that would bring him peace of self. He was trying to believed that snoke was truth but couldn't make himself believe it.

It's actually more realistic than a shitty quest to kill dad to get the ultimate dark side point reward to fill up your faction bar.
Draegan
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Reply #436 on: December 27, 2017, 08:00:11 AM

There any theories out there comparing snokes appearance in TFA and TLJ then showing how luke looked younger and better groomed in his force projection?
Threash
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Reply #437 on: December 27, 2017, 10:27:30 AM

There. Is. No. Plan. If Snoke is alive in the next movie it will be because JJ wants him alive, not because Rian Johnson planned it that way.

I am the .00000001428%
jgsugden
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Reply #438 on: December 27, 2017, 10:58:03 AM

There. Is. No. Plan. If Snoke is alive in the next movie it will be because JJ wants him alive, not because Rian Johnson planned it that way.
That is what they've stated over and over.  Conspiracy "thinkers" will not believe it, but Rian has said that he took what JJ gave him and Disney allowed him to evolve it as he saw fit, and that Disney will give JJ the same permission to modify what he did - but in his mind, Rey is not a Kenobi, Snoke is dead, and Kylo Ren is now a real threatening badass.  So, clearly, we can't trust everything he thinks.

Man, I want to see someone do a 10 minute remake of TLJ as an early 1900s style silent movie melodrama.  I can just see Kylo getting foiled over and over by the hero/heroine....

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Khaldun
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Reply #439 on: December 27, 2017, 05:21:58 PM

Well, because you know this Very Serious Movie Series has never previously been at all like pulp antecedents. Endless exchanges about "You must pay the rent!"  and "I can't pay the rent!" isn't very far away from the "Luke Skywalker comes back and totally deFEATS evil forevers until the next installment!!!!" and "We get thirty minutes of Snoke's totes fascinating backstory" desires that I'm seeing.
SurfD
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Reply #440 on: December 28, 2017, 02:02:22 AM

Canon explanation of the bombs for the people needing an explanation.

Quote
The B/SF-17's intended purpose was to deliver a payload of 1,048 proton bombs on top of a target. The modular bombing magazine, called the "clip" by the bomber's crew, would drop the bombs through sequenced electromagnetic plates in the clip, which propelled the bombs to "drop" in microgravity environments. The bombs would then be drawn magnetically to their targets. The assembly could be programmed to drop specific sections of the payload in sequence, but the most common configuration was "deploy all.

Fuck that, the bombs dropped because its fucking Star Wars and thats how space battles fucking work.
The bombers never really bothered me (sort of because of the above).  There are a HOST of other things that should bother you significantly more if you want to point out that starwars space physics is shit. 
For example:
- Appearently, the laws of space travel don't apply in the Starwars Galaxy, or at least, nobody has ever figured out that Constant Thrust = Constant Acceleration (which makes the entire chase sequence even more mind numbingly stupid than it already is).
- ARCING cannon fire?  ?!?  Dafuq?  That's not how zero g ballistics work......
- Poe pulls a proper, vector based space navigation manouver during that initial assault on the Dreadnaught cannons, and then magically seems to forget such proper spaceflight is possible for the entire rest of the movie....
- Spaceships, everywhere, "falling down" when shot, as if there is gravity in space.

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Goumindong
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Reply #441 on: December 28, 2017, 02:43:30 AM

1) the rebel ships speed up to outrun the star destroyers and then modulate thrust back when they’re out of range to conserve fuel. Both fleets are then accelerating at the same speed keeping things static. When a ship runs out of fuel it stops accelerating and the Star destroyers catch up. Additionally the thrust failing unenvenly produces a rotational vector that mimics a ship falling.

To a frame of reference which is following either the star destroyers or the resistance this looks precisely like a chase scene under heavy friction.

2) Blasters and turbo lasers are not ballistic weapons.

3) Poe uhh doesn’t fly the rest of the movie

4) there is indeed gravity in space and large ships not traveling in stable orbits will fall towards the most present gravity well when they lose power of which there usually is one within a close proximity

5) it’s a fucking movie and those are the least egregious problems with space in it by far if you’re going to nitpick.
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Reply #442 on: December 28, 2017, 06:00:54 AM

"We get thirty minutes of Snoke's totes fascinating backstory" desires that I'm seeing.


Not a single person is asking for this. Stop being dumb.

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Draegan
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Reply #443 on: December 28, 2017, 07:32:45 AM

"We get thirty minutes of Snoke's totes fascinating backstory" desires that I'm seeing.


Not a single person is asking for this. Stop being dumb.

Plenty of people are on the interwebs.
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Reply #444 on: December 28, 2017, 07:44:41 AM

"I wish we had more context for who Snoke is and how he got to be where he is" =/= "Can we please have a 30 minute monologue or training montage where we have his entire life story explained to the audience."

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Reply #445 on: December 28, 2017, 09:13:21 AM

"I wish we had more context for who Snoke is and how he got to be where he is" =/= "Can we please have a 30 minute monologue or training montage where we have his entire life story explained to the audience."

I wish we had a movie where our heroes have something to overcome beyond audience boredom. 

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jgsugden
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Reply #446 on: December 28, 2017, 09:32:15 AM

Yeah, we'll get Snoke's backstory and see more of young Ben Solo. The next animated series seems to be very likely to be the story of Luke's young Jedi Academy. The development timing schedule of it seems to align pretty much perfectly so that it can build based upon the final version of TlJ. It has to be tied to something in TLJ, and unless we get a Tale of the Stableboy, this seems like the obvious choice. 

As for seeing Star Wars try to do other types of films, there is a series of Clone Wars episodes that attempt to do this very thing: War Movies, Monster Movies, Buddy Cop, etc... in a 3 or 4 episode connecting story, just enough material for a short movie. Not quite the same, but good testing waters. I could see them doing a non-numbered film that tells the story of a Rebel Group struggling for survival on a crazy planet or a political thriller on the new Capital World.

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Riggswolfe
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Reply #447 on: December 28, 2017, 12:31:15 PM

There any theories out there comparing snokes appearance in TFA and TLJ then showing how luke looked younger and better groomed in his force projection?

I've seen quite a few. Snoke does arguably look "better" than he did in TFA but it's hard to tell for sure. His scars don't look quite as good.

There. Is. No. Plan. If Snoke is alive in the next movie it will be because JJ wants him alive, not because Rian Johnson planned it that way.

There never was. Lucas used to claim he had a big plan but he was making it up as he went along. However, there is nothing to say this wasn't Rian's intention and that he told JJ this. "Btw, I tried to make it appear Snoke might actually not be dead." JJ of course can do what he wants with that information assuming it is true.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
eldaec
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Reply #448 on: December 28, 2017, 04:24:50 PM

I'm pretty sure lucas did have a plan for 1-3.

Reasonably accurate leaked story drafts were abundant on the 1990s internet.

From everything he and Disney have said he also had a plan for 7-9 but Disney decided to chuck it.

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jgsugden
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Reply #449 on: December 28, 2017, 04:40:33 PM

...
There. Is. No. Plan. If Snoke is alive in the next movie it will be because JJ wants him alive, not because Rian Johnson planned it that way.

There never was. Lucas used to claim he had a big plan but he was making it up as he went along. However, there is nothing to say this wasn't Rian's intention and that he told JJ this. "Btw, I tried to make it appear Snoke might actually not be dead." JJ of course can do what he wants with that information assuming it is true.
Except Rian has, in interviews, said that Snoke, to him, is dead, but JJ will have the freedom to change that should he so desire.  That is the freedom Rian was given (to mess with what JJ set up in 7), and that is what he expects Disney to give JJ (to mess up what Rian setup).

As for Lucas' plan?  There was one.  It has been published a few times.  They even made a comic version of some of the original plan.  Lucas just threw it out the window and tried to come up with something better - and changed the plan*constantly*.  In the first draft of episode 4 as a script, Luke was old, Han was a lizard man, R2 talked, the Emporer did not use the Force, and Darth Vader was not terribly special either as a mere human general with no Force powers.  Lucas has ADD and can't stick with anything for more than a few minutes before he wants to change it.  And he does lie about what his plans were....

At the moment 4 was released, Lucas said he had a plan for 9 movies and this was the 4th.  There are a lot of interviews from that time with that comment.  Before Empire was released he commented that he'd planned three movies and had many more stories to tell - but that the real core story he wanted to tell was all going to take place in Episodes 1 to 6.  After Empire was released he said that the next movie (Revenge of the Jedi) was going to take place mostly on Chewie's Home Planet.  When Jedi was released he said there would be no prequel.  When the start of the prequel was released he - within a week - said both that there would be a three film followup following the prequel (taking place after Jedi), and that he had never had any intention of making a film after Jedi.  Hamill - around the time of the end of the prequel trilogy - said his agent had been contacted about his availability for a possible episode 7 (per a 2004 interview).  Lucas' era was whatever whim was in force whenever the filming started.




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Riggswolfe
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Reply #450 on: December 29, 2017, 02:00:55 PM

...
There. Is. No. Plan. If Snoke is alive in the next movie it will be because JJ wants him alive, not because Rian Johnson planned it that way.

There never was. Lucas used to claim he had a big plan but he was making it up as he went along. However, there is nothing to say this wasn't Rian's intention and that he told JJ this. "Btw, I tried to make it appear Snoke might actually not be dead." JJ of course can do what he wants with that information assuming it is true.
Except Rian has, in interviews, said that Snoke, to him, is dead, but JJ will have the freedom to change that should he so desire.  That is the freedom Rian was given (to mess with what JJ set up in 7), and that is what he expects Disney to give JJ (to mess up what Rian setup).

As for Lucas' plan?  There was one.  It has been published a few times.  They even made a comic version of some of the original plan.  Lucas just threw it out the window and tried to come up with something better - and changed the plan*constantly*.  In the first draft of episode 4 as a script, Luke was old, Han was a lizard man, R2 talked, the Emporer did not use the Force, and Darth Vader was not terribly special either as a mere human general with no Force powers.  Lucas has ADD and can't stick with anything for more than a few minutes before he wants to change it.  And he does lie about what his plans were....

At the moment 4 was released, Lucas said he had a plan for 9 movies and this was the 4th.  There are a lot of interviews from that time with that comment.  Before Empire was released he commented that he'd planned three movies and had many more stories to tell - but that the real core story he wanted to tell was all going to take place in Episodes 1 to 6.  After Empire was released he said that the next movie (Revenge of the Jedi) was going to take place mostly on Chewie's Home Planet.  When Jedi was released he said there would be no prequel.  When the start of the prequel was released he - within a week - said both that there would be a three film followup following the prequel (taking place after Jedi), and that he had never had any intention of making a film after Jedi.  Hamill - around the time of the end of the prequel trilogy - said his agent had been contacted about his availability for a possible episode 7 (per a 2004 interview).  Lucas' era was whatever whim was in force whenever the filming started.





I forgot about Rian's comment. As for the rest of your post, you took a couple of paragraphs to say what I said in one sentence. But I suppose not everyone knew all that detail.

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Rendakor
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Reply #451 on: December 30, 2017, 09:47:06 AM

Saw this last night, enjoyed it a lot. Wish we'd seen a bit more on Snoke, didn't like the Casino scene nor Rose crash-saving Finn. Everything else was good.

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Threash
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Reply #452 on: December 30, 2017, 11:39:08 AM

Saw this last night, enjoyed it a lot. Wish we'd seen a bit more on Snoke, didn't like the Casino scene nor Rose crash-saving Finn. Everything else was good.

You just summarized 13 pages of this thread.

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Khaldun
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Reply #453 on: December 30, 2017, 01:00:10 PM

Except that for some people, those three things = the movie sucked.
Threash
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Reply #454 on: December 30, 2017, 01:08:00 PM

Yeah, but they are wrong and dumb.

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