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Author Topic: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi  (Read 28473 times)
eldaec
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Reply #490 on: January 05, 2018, 08:31:48 AM

Finn and Rose: I read that scene as him about to just get vaporised by a laser beam for no reason and she crashed into him, which made sense. How she managed to get ahead of him and swing in from the side when he was near the front and going full speed in a  straight line is another question.

Its a bit more that. He *might* have taken down the laser and been a big damn dead hero, but over the whole movie Rose is saying that if he doesn't work as part of a team instead of running away or pointlessly sacrificing himself (because of lack of faith in the group in either case), they are all going to die, there will be nothing left to save, and everything will be shit.

She intervened to get both of them light side points.

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Reply #491 on: January 05, 2018, 09:10:02 AM

I wonder how many classic scifi shows would hold up under the lens of today's scrutiny.  Not just here but the entire internet seems to regard everything with the sharp knees argument these days.  Now that everyone has a platform criticisms have gone from the "eh, I thought it was boring" to your friends, into a 19 paragraph dissertation on the in-world inconsistencies  vis-a-vis farting in space.

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Reply #492 on: January 05, 2018, 09:17:42 AM

vis-a-vis farting in space.

Clearly, they would all be "silent but deadly."  why so serious?

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Reply #493 on: January 05, 2018, 10:07:08 AM

I wonder how many classic scifi shows would hold up under the lens of today's scrutiny.  Not just here but the entire internet seems to regard everything with the sharp knees argument these days.  Now that everyone has a platform criticisms have gone from the "eh, I thought it was boring" to your friends, into a 19 paragraph dissertation on the in-world inconsistencies  vis-a-vis farting in space.
Pretty sure you can find people arguing over classic sci-fi shows on the internet if you want, and the good ones still hold up.  Hell, going back and watching the original Alien, I'm still impressed by how much better of a movie it is then most modern sci-fi/horror.

And in comparison to now, I went back and watched Rogue One after all the craziness of this thread, to see if maybe Star Wars just isn't for me anymore.  That movie is near perfect.  It is so much better than The Last Jedi at every single level of the craft of film making its not funny.  Pacing, acting, writing, editing.....  It had its flaws, but they were minor and smoothed over by the overall quality of the movie.  It's made me dislike Jedi even more now.

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Reply #494 on: January 05, 2018, 11:30:04 AM

I love me some classic sci-fi, almost all of the properties that span more than a single movie are better made in every way than TLJ. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to claim that Prometheus is a great movie, but even the bad Alien movies manage to build on a consistent universe. Even super janky one-movie stuff like The Black Hole or Silent Running manage to be better and more consistent.

And yeah, Rogue One was on cable here over Christmas so I watched it again a few times and it's the best SW film by such a huge distance it's not even close.

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Reply #495 on: January 05, 2018, 12:16:52 PM

but still highlighted how little they seem to care about the material.

This was my feeling about this movie too. It really felt like they didn't care about the original characters or their stories, except for Leia. I felt they disrespected the character of Luke and that he was acting out of character most of the movie. I did love the story beat of his ghost ascension with the music and the suns. Most of the story beats though seemed like the director trying to be sly and *wink, wink* wasn't that cool. You didn't expect that, did you? I liked this movie less than TFA and I am not a fan of TFA.

My family agreed that we liked the character of Rose until she wrecked Finn at the end. The "I love you" scene was sweet, but would have fit better if she told him before the attempted sacrifice.
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Reply #496 on: January 05, 2018, 12:21:33 PM

but still highlighted how little they seem to care about the material.

This was my feeling about this movie too. It really felt like they didn't care about the original characters or their stories, except for Leia. I felt they disrespected the character of Luke and that he was acting out of character most of the movie. I did love the story beat of his ghost ascension with the music and the suns. Most of the story beats though seemed like the director trying to be sly and *wink, wink* wasn't that cool. You didn't expect that, did you? I liked this movie less than TFA and I am not a fan of TFA.

My family agreed that we liked the character of Rose until she wrecked Finn at the end. The "I love you" scene was sweet, but would have fit better if she told him before the attempted sacrifice.

I liked the movie but when she kissed Finn while their base was literally being blown up in the background of the shot my wife and I both laughed out loud and I'm pretty sure that wasn't the intended reaction.

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Reply #497 on: January 05, 2018, 01:16:23 PM

Fuck that shit.

When you take over a franchise, you have a duty to build upon, not coop, what came before. 

When JJ did 7, he really tried to build upon Lucas' work.  He did it to the extent that he nearly remade episode 4.  He may have done it too much.

When Rian did 8, he said, "I see what you were trying to do, but I like this better."  The 1% analogy does not fit with episodes 1 to 7.  The ramming does not fit with anything we saw in 1 to 7.  The 'Rey is nobody' doesn't match with the foreshadowing.  The 'Kylo abandons his Vader fetish' is a reversal from where he was going.  Killing Snoke without explaining who he was closes a story that was never told. 

If Episode 7 didn't exist and we started this new phase with episode 8, some of these 'sins' would be more forgivable.  But when JJ was as respectful as he was of the past (not saying he was perfect in his respect, btw - but he did a darn good job), it really stood out when Rian was going his own direction.

I'll be excited to see Rian do a trilogy that isn't so tied to the past.  I think it was just a mistake to have his talents step on the existing path.






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Reply #498 on: January 05, 2018, 01:26:01 PM

Fuck that shit.

When you take over a franchise, you have a duty to build upon, not coop, what came before. 

That bullshit thinking has ruined more series than I can count.
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Reply #499 on: January 05, 2018, 02:58:10 PM

A small but great example. Alan Moore took over DC's Swamp Thing, which had mostly been an atmospheric "man trapped in the form of a monster" with horror elements thrown in, with great art by Berni Wrightson, up to that point. I could see someone loving that old comic, but the idea that Moore should just keep doing more of that only slightly different would have been a sign of being an unimaginative fan who needs to always get the same thing again and again and again forever. Moore said: you know this character? Nothing you thought about him is true. He's not at all what you think, this is now a fundamentally different kind of story. And it was fucking genius.

A universe that can only be used to tell the same story again and again and again is a flawed universe. Comics suffer from that sometimes. Genre fiction suffers from that sometimes. The desire to just have the same thing only with a few slight new additions, nothing too radical, is something that fan cultures are prone to, and it is a case of loving something so much that you hurt it.
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Reply #500 on: January 05, 2018, 03:23:59 PM

On the other hand, Swamp Thing had shitty sales before Alan Moore took over and was basically given the book because no one else would take it?

Swamp Thing pre-Moore and Star Wars post-TFA are two entirely different set of circumstances, both from the editorial standpoint and the narrative. Alan Moore and DC had nothing to lose by going whole hog, so creative freedom likely had no push back. Star Wars, however, isn't just a low-sales also-ran, it's a giant, money-making, megalithic brand. Writers of these kinds of properties not only have to think creatively, but they also have to considered shepherds of a brand. As such, yes, there is going to be a variable amount of "don't rock the boat" thinking to the people like the editors/producers who greenlight stories. As a writer, I think you do have to at least RESPECT the material and respect the brand. That doesn't mean you can't make some risky calls - I think Rogue One and it's ending was an extremely risky call for a Star Wars branded movie, whereas it wouldn't be all that risky for a movie with no brand/legacy fandom to worry about.

Hewing closely to a brand isn't going to be as creative or as interesting as taking the Alan Moore Swamp Thing risk, just by the nature of branding. That doesn't mean it can't be good.

I don't think Rian Johnson hewed as closely to the Star Wars brand as he should have for a tent pole movie. His own trilogy? I expect that one to go even farther afield and it's probably best that he does. I imagine that's part of the reason he's not doing Star Wars IX.

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Reply #501 on: January 05, 2018, 03:55:08 PM

All of this is why doing "episode whatever" is obviously harder than "a star wars story". Neither TFA nor tLJ did an especially good job of extending the grand narrative. But for my money tLJ was at least a good film in its own right, wheras TFA was just brainless fun.

R1 OTOH was great because it said 'hey, you know the overall story this sits in, we can zoom in on some dudes and make a film about them and just assume knowledge of the universe'.

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Khaldun
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Reply #502 on: January 05, 2018, 04:17:20 PM

I guess when someone says, "He didn't hew as closely to the brand", that's a recommendation for me. And I love Star Wars. That's what I want from people who are doing "tent pole" work--as long as they wander away in a fashion that's creatively interesting (say, unlike JJ Abrams with Star Trek, where wandering away meant a dinner-theater re-enactment of Wrath of Khan).

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Reply #503 on: January 05, 2018, 04:26:33 PM

My problem is that TLJ wasn't creatively interesting, it was just odd for the sake of being odd.

Hoax
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Reply #504 on: January 05, 2018, 05:23:20 PM

I wonder how many classic scifi shows would hold up under the lens of today's scrutiny.  Not just here but the entire internet seems to regard everything with the sharp knees argument these days.  Now that everyone has a platform criticisms have gone from the "eh, I thought it was boring" to your friends, into a 19 paragraph dissertation on the in-world inconsistencies  vis-a-vis farting in space.

I've literally gone to bat for Ghost in the Shell (I've rewwatched it out of theaters still think its very cool), Pacific Rim (stupid sure but glorious monsters vs robots and Edris Elba), Bright being way fucking better than the online buzz around it seemed to suggest etc.

I'm pretty sure I'm not that guy with most things.

I 100% agree with Ironwood on feeling like I'm just too old for this shit. TFA was just bad, a complete and utter shit movie, like NuTrek Khan without any acting talent to make you want to look past what a fucking hack JJ is. The Last Jedi was (less) bad but also just felt like it wasn't made for me at all. I can only assume that small idiot kids might not notice how retarded the entire opening is?

Its a dreadnought with no fighter screen (why ever?) that gets all its anti-bomber stuff taken out by a single fighter while the two captains say really fucking dumb shit! Then the bombers go into the teeth of the now deployed fighter screen so they can drop their bombs down onto things IN SPACE. The fuck are we "dropping" bombs in space exactly? I thought we already had star wars bombers in A or B or Y wings? One of them was supposed to be the heavier fighter-bomber thing right? They should have fucking torpedoes and the reason you take out those static heavy cannons is those deal with torps etc etc.

I mean there are like 2 very successful star wars based TT miniature wargames right now if not more. A movie directed at me and my kind would have clearly pandered by using real military tech on both sides and using them in a way that makes any sense at all.

I mean good god that stalling for time communication call thing btwn Poe and Hux? I had forgotten that until just now when I was trying to put into words how annoying I found the stupidity of the bad guys. Was that a real scene? From a not youtube fan movie?

Fuck Star Wars. This is 2 movies I regretted going to in a row plus 2 movies I didn't bother to watch in theater that I could barely sit through on tv. Its not for me.

« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 05:27:56 PM by Hoax »

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eldaec
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Reply #505 on: January 05, 2018, 06:37:42 PM

TFA is good until they leave Jakku.

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eldaec
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Reply #506 on: January 05, 2018, 06:41:39 PM

On bombs, I have no idea why people keep having an issue with that shit.

Every ship in SW can demonstrably generate artificial gravity, including the bomber.

If you can do gravity, shooting bombs at things using that gravity makes sense to me.

/shrug

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Goumindong
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Reply #507 on: January 05, 2018, 06:47:54 PM

On bombs, I have no idea why people keep having an issue with that shit.

Every ship in SW can demonstrably generate artificial gravity, including the bomber.

If you can do gravity, shooting bombs at things using that gravity makes sense to me.

/shrug

They’re looking for a reason to not like the new movie so they can be hipsters about how everything was better when they were 12/before it was popular.

They’re doing the same thing with the light speed attack. If the cruiser were seen as a threat it would have been obliterated. Same with any ship or asteroid designed for the task.
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Reply #508 on: January 05, 2018, 07:39:30 PM

TFA is good until they leave Jakku.


Everything until they steal the MF was great. Agreed. I posted that in the thread I'm fairly certain.

Your next post is utter bullshit and Goum is... whatever. I literally addressed that I'm not the person who cares about hipster points or liking something that can have holes poked in it. This movie wasn't good and was full of holes.

My #1 beef is not the holes its that the cool parts were few and far between and not really cool at all.

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TheWalrus
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Reply #509 on: January 05, 2018, 09:43:07 PM

Movie was good for people who like it. As a for instance, people here said I should check out Ghost in the Shell. (Not the Scarlett movie) What little I could sit thru was utter garbage. Obviously not for me. But enough folk appear to, that it must appeal to a section of the populace. It appears to have the shallow asshole contingent anyway.

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Reply #510 on: January 05, 2018, 10:34:17 PM

On bombs, I have no idea why people keep having an issue with that shit.

Every ship in SW can demonstrably generate artificial gravity, including the bomber.

If you can do gravity, shooting bombs at things using that gravity makes sense to me.

/shrug

They’re looking for a reason to not like the new movie so they can be hipsters about how everything was better when they were 12/before it was popular.

They’re doing the same thing with the light speed attack. If the cruiser were seen as a threat it would have been obliterated. Same with any ship or asteroid designed for the task.

The bomb thing is apparently explained in the visual dictionary. Here's an article talking about how the bombs had messages written on them that also links to a twitter post with a screen shot of the bomb stuff. Basically, they're launched by magnets, and drawn magnetically to their targets. The bombs to me fit Star Wars. I mean Lucas famously used WW2 dog fight footage in his early cuts and ILM just copied it when they did the FX.

Link: Here

As for the suicide attack this same question can be asked of any franchise that uses FTL. Borg cube threatening Earth? Have a Federation starship warp into it. Etc.

The way I viewed it as a nerd is that hyperdrive takes you to a sort of shadow of the galaxy. If memory serves your ship goes to lightspeed then goes to this "hyperdrive dimension". Sort of like the Delorean going to 88 mph to time travel.

When you watch a ship go to hyperspace it massively accelerates then does the spinning star thing and disappears. I think what basically happened is she was close enough that her ship hit theirs while doing the lightspeed acceleration.

As for why it's not a common tactic, for the same reason it's not usually a common tactic in sci-fi. It's usually not an exciting way to depict space battles. If this was "real"? Yeah. It'd be a common tactic. Space terrorists would use it all the time.

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Reply #511 on: January 05, 2018, 11:58:50 PM

They’re looking for a reason to not like the new movie so they can be hipsters about how everything was better when they were 12/before it was popular.

Stop it. That's not what anybody in this thread is doing and you fucking know it. I'd think most of us have been around each other long enough to know that we're not really of the beret-wearing crowd trying to impress anyone.

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Reply #512 on: January 06, 2018, 10:49:33 AM

Any time I come across people who often agree on things feeling radically different and borderline angry about it, I think that is by definition something interesting and meaningful. I also think it is precisely when recognize that's what's going on, it means that if it's about a work of culture, that work of culture did something worth doing. A film or book or painting that deeply polarizes people who see it, where there are strong feelings on both sides, did something interesting. I say that even when it's something I profoundly dislike. I would much rather somebody make something that produces interestingly strong divergences in reaction than something that produces mild and easily forgotten approval from most people.

I mean, everything ever made has someone who loves it. I met a person who thought "The Room" actually was a pretty good movie. And even the most beloved things have a few people who really hate them, usually for idiosyncratic or circumstantial reasons. But when something produces a nearly even split, and the reactions on both sides are strong, that's meaningful and important and worth some continued conversation. Often what happens over time is that each side starts to see what the other did, and ten or twenty years later, a new consensus emerges. I don't know if that's going to happen here--it might or might not. But it is worth everyone's time to be curious about what other people saw when they saw this movie.
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Reply #513 on: January 06, 2018, 11:05:11 AM

hm

I also think it is precisely when recognize that's what's going on, it means that if it's about a work of culture, that work of culture did something worth doing.

i am not sure this applies to franchises that literally exist to milk money from children and fanboys - and i'm pretty loose with my definitions of art
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Reply #514 on: January 06, 2018, 12:44:35 PM

I think it works even with stuff that's pretty much just commercial genre material. If a Superman comic story makes half the existing fans furious and the other half enthusiastic, that's interesting, even if Superman is in some sense an uninteresting character in a relatively unsophisticated medium. Strong evenly divided reactions from existing audiences are always an interesting thing.
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Reply #515 on: January 09, 2018, 12:57:39 AM

On bombs, I have no idea why people keep having an issue with that shit.

Every ship in SW can demonstrably generate artificial gravity, including the bomber.

If you can do gravity, shooting bombs at things using that gravity makes sense to me.

/shrug

But they already established that bombing runs involve...shooting proton torpedoes from fast agile craft.  Even the Falcon shoots missiles out the front.  Even in this same fucking movie, Kylo Ren uses missiles to "bomb" the Raddus' hanger and his bros "bombed" the bridge from fucking TIE fighters.
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Reply #516 on: January 09, 2018, 10:43:12 AM

Yeah, it really was kind of dumb. All they had to do is say, "Here's a specialized attack craft that does something that requires clearing the deck guns". Say, lands on a Star Destroyer hull and detaches part of its hull that's clamped magnetically and then blows inward into the SD hull. And then you can still have a scene where only one gets through and the hull won't detach properly due to damage, so the pilot blows the ship while she's still in it.

There's some script fixes possible for sure. But for me the core characterizations are so good and some of the adjustments/reconfiguring of the universe equally so.
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Reply #517 on: January 09, 2018, 10:45:46 AM

I think any talk of the tactics and strategies of Star Wars space battles are a waste of time. Since the very first movie in the series, every single choice in battle choreography has been made with the only limitation being "the rule of cool." Does it look cool? Do it. The most thought that has been given to tactics is "make it like WWII movies in space." Full stop.

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Reply #518 on: January 09, 2018, 11:49:09 AM

Undoubtedly the choice to use a new bomber class in the movie was so they had a new toy to sell at Christmas.
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Reply #519 on: January 09, 2018, 01:34:31 PM

Second-guessing the tech in ANY space opera is a mistake. I thnk the only one modestly attentive to that is the Expanse series. I can't think of a single other filmed space opera that holds up under close examination. Babylon 5 was a bit more thoughtful about setting out the rules than is common, I suppose, and the BSG reboot tried pretty hard early on to do the same. Star Wars is at the opposite end of the scale--the only way you can hold up the worldbuilding at all is to accept that the denizens of the SW universe are exceptionally unimaginative about the possible uses of their existing technology and disinclined to pursue technological innovation. Star Trek is the opposite--everybody's doing new stuff all the time and then forgetting about it right away.
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Reply #520 on: January 09, 2018, 02:11:01 PM

Look at the difference in damage between the torpedoes and the bombs. The torps damaged the rebel cruiser, the bombs utterly destroyed a battleship. Slight difference in force projection there. (Ha.)

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Reply #521 on: January 09, 2018, 02:18:47 PM

What you did there... see it I did.

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Reply #522 on: January 09, 2018, 02:52:58 PM

Undoubtedly the choice to use a new bomber class in the movie was so they had a new toy to sell at Christmas.

One of my biggest disappointments about the film was the shortage of new toy spaceships for Disney to sell me.

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Reply #523 on: January 09, 2018, 03:08:16 PM

The basic problem problem with the bomber scene was that it didn't make sense visually. Either you turned your brain off when Poe showed up and solo'ed a destroyer's worth of static defenses, or you didn't. You see even if bombers in space make sense, even if we can scientifically justify using gravity/magnetism to drop a load of explosives the size of pineapples... why on gods green earth are they slow. What tactical advantage is there to them being slow. Why is there a physical human in charge of the release of said bombs. This is not even WW2 in space. This isn't even WW1 in space. This is fan-girls writing a romance novel about her abusive boyfriend learning to love again in space.
 

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Reply #524 on: January 09, 2018, 03:39:04 PM

I wasn't a fan of Poe vs the dreadnought, in fact at that point I was really worried that I'd driven into central London at midnight to watch a shit film. Apart from soloing the turbolasers or whatever, Poe's comedy crank call stylings were... not funny.

But once the bombers arrived it was fine.

And as I mentioned a few pages back Dreadnought Captain Guy had the only amusing lines in the film. So that was nice.

Melee stormtroopers are a lot sillier than bombers.

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