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Author Topic: Marvel's Iron Fist  (Read 15626 times)
Cyrrex
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Reply #140 on: September 12, 2018, 02:49:41 AM

Well, Marvel does Black Widow okay, but that could be just because of, you know, Scarlett.  Hard to do that wrong.

But actually, you make a good point.  They do some really strong female characters.  And even better, they usually aren't white either.

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Ironwood
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Reply #141 on: September 12, 2018, 03:21:49 AM

I'm about half way - this is pretty good. Not amazing but good.

This show really makes me wonder why marvel TV can do women well and villians pretty well but the movies suck at both. Especially as the movies do most other things so much better.


Mostly focus and audience I think.  Also, the TV really, really takes the time to drag out characterisation and beat you to fucking death with it, so they don't really give themselves a lot of choice.  It's much easier to identify when you understand.

I would disagree that they do Black Widow okay.  I think she's pretty flat and uninteresting.  She only really came alive briefly in Iron Man and Winter Soldier.

If anything, Black Panther did women better, I think.  They were certainly more focused, defined and interesting.

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Cyrrex
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Reply #142 on: September 12, 2018, 03:57:19 AM

Well, "okay" in that she is surrounded by gods basically, so I am not sure how much they can reasonably pull her out of that.

Agree with BP, though, they did it fairly well.  I think the trick is to do it without making it feel like blatant pandering, which is difficult as it is so often in the eye of the beholder.

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eldaec
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Reply #143 on: September 12, 2018, 06:35:01 AM

ScarJo herself does a good job. But the script of both the first two avengers movies had her defined as 'love interest for male plot device', then she turned up in CA3 to give a performance of 'reasonable female unable to make boys behave'.

I don't think she has been more than a background trope in any film.

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Reply #144 on: September 12, 2018, 08:55:06 AM

Overall its a competently produced 10 episodes. But its kinda bland in its own way despite having plenty of characters that I liked and very very few cringe moments. To compare this to season 1, I will have to say while season 1 had plenty of lows, it also has highs. This season kinda stays in one middling tempo that never builds or drops. You like Colleen, you like Mary Walker, hell you even like Ward and his fuck buddy/baby mama. There is no cringe worthy corporate scenes, no Dany standing around repeating "I am the Immortal Iron Fist" like a pokemon. But the trade off is that you also don't get anything too interesting like the conflict involving the Hand and also the fight scenes are not as interesting or as reminiscent of kung-fu movies of old. So while season 2 had better characters, acting, generally stayed away from being Cringe Fist. It also didn't give them a more interesting scenario to work with and Dany, while more mature, still struggling with the same fundamental problem with the Netflix iteration of him. I watched about 15% of this show while doing something else, so I guess Bore Fist or 7/10 Fist is a good description.

Going back to Dany's fundamental problem. For a character who is all about balance and purpose he kinda has none. He is perpetually on the verge of finding himself and who he is. Which is fine for an origin story, not so fine for a netflix series. Everyone else from Matt Murdock to Jessica Jones knows what their about, what their powers do, who they are as a person. That is not Dany. We are still trying to teach Dany how to not use the fist like a wack-o-mole mallet 22 episodes later and thats just his powers, the rest of his character is still under construction. No wonder the show double downed on the side cast this season because it would have only lasted 3 episodes otherwise.

Also Colleen Wing best girlfriend of 2018. Fucking A what a refreshing take on a healthy relationship. Who knew writing one would be so fucking hard.

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Threash
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Reply #145 on: September 14, 2018, 03:09:12 PM

I'm about half way - this is pretty good. Not amazing but good.

This show really makes me wonder why marvel TV can do women well and villians pretty well but the movies suck at both. Especially as the movies do most other things so much better.


All the movies since like Thor 2 have had amazing villains, they are like some of the best parts of the MCU.

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eldaec
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Reply #146 on: September 15, 2018, 06:58:21 PM

We're going to have to disagree given that would include Ronan the Dull, Ultron, the guy in a suit from Ant Man, and the mean cloud in Dr Strange.

Great MCU villians : Loki, Michael Keaton, Kurt Russell. End of list.

And I'm being generous with Kurt Russell.

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Threash
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Reply #147 on: September 15, 2018, 07:06:05 PM

Thanos was great, Hela Ghost Killmonger and Mads Mikkelsen were good

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Reply #148 on: September 15, 2018, 07:06:11 PM

You forgot Thanos.

EDIT: And Threash beat me to it. The point still stands. I don't think Hela was great because she wasn't in most of the movie, but you should include Grandmaster.

eldaec
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Reply #149 on: September 17, 2018, 04:39:38 AM

I will concede grandmaster.

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Cyrrex
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Reply #150 on: September 17, 2018, 07:36:12 AM

For the record, and back on topic, I thoroughly enjoyed Season 2 of IF.  Interesting how people see the same material so differently.  I like Danny Rand just fine, I like Ward even more (even if that plot line seemed kinda unnecessary), and I want to have Colleen Wing's babies.  All good.

I also really like the slow simmering coolness of Luke Cage, including season 2.  We are living in a golden age when we are so spoiled that we can nitpick stuff like this, my whole childhood was spent dreaming about this kind of stuff.  Viva la difference, or something.

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MahrinSkel
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Reply #151 on: September 17, 2018, 07:44:28 AM

If you just ignore season 1 and Defenders, and take this by itself, it was a good season. Better written, better fight scenes (I think they finally started using a double for Ser Loras), and a Big Bad that was much more appropriate for the scale. If this had been the first season of IF, it would have been a good intro to building up to The Hand.

Of course, they already blew that, and are going to have a lot of spade work to build up to a decent alternative.

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Threash
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Reply #152 on: September 17, 2018, 10:14:47 AM

Yes, this was a good season. The thing is there was no Iron Fist, not after like episode 2 or so.

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NowhereMan
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Reply #153 on: October 02, 2018, 02:43:47 PM

I think Mahrin kind of nailed it that this was a much more Defenders scale plot and big bad. The first season of IF really didn't have the budget (or acting or writing or directing or...) to pull of an existential level threat like the Hand. It felt MAoS at times when they really couldn't manage the budget to show what they wanted. This time it felt like they had a clear idea of who people were at least, Danny's motivation and questioning of himself was consistent and they did a good job of actually keeping the addiction and redemption theme in. Joy/Davos also paid off far better than I had expected, seeing them at the end of Season 1 was massively jarring and kind of reinforced the weak characterisation from that season.

I do like the increasing cross over elements of the shows as well, it makes sense considering they're all in the same city.

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eldaec
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Reply #154 on: October 03, 2018, 03:55:08 AM

As much as I usually hate overblown crossover - these guys know how to do it. They pick crossovers that serve this story and don't let it distract.

Show was good enough that I was able to overlook how ridiculous the Joy and Davos premise was, and the Ward/Danny epilogue did not in any way make me roll my eyes.

More like this please.

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Reply #155 on: October 10, 2018, 08:39:42 PM

jgsugden
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Reply #156 on: October 12, 2018, 10:04:19 PM

Canceled.  No season 3 at Netflix.  However, the character(s) will continue.  I expect they'll announce Heroes for Hire, Daughters of the Dragon or something similar soon.  I suppose there might be a small chance of the characters being moved to Disney Streaming... it could have been a part of the licensing contract.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 11:11:06 PM by jgsugden »

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Khaldun
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Reply #157 on: October 13, 2018, 03:38:54 PM

This needed to be the fun one of the four Netflix and it needed to have action comparable to the best in DD Season 1 and 2 but in a very different idiom. Didn't happen.
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Reply #158 on: October 13, 2018, 06:35:51 PM

It's been a bad idea done well. A shitty superhero made into two quite watchable series plus Defenders. Mileage achieved.
jgsugden
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Reply #159 on: October 13, 2018, 09:38:08 PM

This was bad casting for the star, mediocre writing, and unfortunate timining in that casting a white man as a martial arts figure is not flying in the current arena. 

I'd have watched a Season 3, but I think we're all better off seeing him moved to a secondary character (or just lost) and see them put their efforts elsewhere.

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Reply #160 on: October 13, 2018, 10:08:32 PM

What about the clearly Chinese-European woman playing a supposedly Japanese woman with a clearly Chinese name? That offensive Hollywood "Long Duc Dong" ignorance that mashes all Asian cultures into one thing.
MahrinSkel
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Reply #161 on: October 13, 2018, 10:10:56 PM

To be fair, they were adapting material from the 70's, when that kind of thing was completely normal.

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Raguel
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Reply #162 on: October 13, 2018, 10:41:51 PM

Apparently Colleen's father is Chinese and her mom is Japanese.
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Reply #163 on: October 14, 2018, 01:58:40 AM

It's been a bad idea done well. A shitty superhero made into two quite watchable series plus Defenders. Mileage achieved.
I feel the opposite.  After watching Daredevil season 1, and it's great fighting, I thought Iron First would be the best of all the potential heroes.  Super martial artist who uses chi to enhance all his attacks?  Great setup for a street level show, even if writing was mediocre

Instead we had a terrible execution.  Terrible writing, terrible acting, terrible action.

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jgsugden
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Reply #164 on: October 14, 2018, 09:41:21 PM

It'll be interesting to see if they replace it with another Marvel show, or if the new Disney Streaming will limit the options for new Netflix shows.

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Cyrrex
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Reply #165 on: October 15, 2018, 05:38:36 AM

I am fairly bummed.  I get the criticisms, but I still liked the series, and I would never vote for there to be less of this sort of thing (and it goes against my very biology to wish for less Colleen Wing).  I hope they continue some of this, even if it is meshed into the others.  Speaking of which, DD3 is out at the end of this week.

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jgsugden
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Reply #166 on: October 17, 2018, 08:55:59 PM

I doubt that canceling Iron Fist will result in less Mavel on TV.  It just means something else gets a chance.

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Reply #167 on: October 17, 2018, 09:08:39 PM

If season 2 was stronger they would have made it to season 3. But they spent so much time "fixing" what was wrong with season 1 that they never bothered inserting anything exciting.

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Cyrrex
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Reply #168 on: October 18, 2018, 12:33:38 AM

I doubt that canceling Iron Fist will result in less Mavel on TV.  It just means something else gets a chance.

True enough.  And I discovered yesterday that Into The Badlands actually has both a season 2 and 3 now.  I assume most of you have seen some of it, but THAT is how you do some martial arts choreography.  I mean, it is ridiculous.  But amazingly well done.

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satael
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Reply #169 on: October 18, 2018, 01:13:18 AM

I doubt that canceling Iron Fist will result in less Mavel on TV.  It just means something else gets a chance.

True enough.  And I discovered yesterday that Into The Badlands actually has both a season 2 and 3 now.  I assume most of you have seen some of it, but THAT is how you do some martial arts choreography.  I mean, it is ridiculous.  But amazingly well done.

Not really fair to put it on the choreographer when the 2 lead actors are in totally different category when it comes to martial arts (movies)

compare:
Daniel Wu to Finn Jones
Cyrrex
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Reply #170 on: October 18, 2018, 01:35:47 AM

I doubt that canceling Iron Fist will result in less Mavel on TV.  It just means something else gets a chance.

True enough.  And I discovered yesterday that Into The Badlands actually has both a season 2 and 3 now.  I assume most of you have seen some of it, but THAT is how you do some martial arts choreography.  I mean, it is ridiculous.  But amazingly well done.

Not really fair to put it on the choreographer when the 2 lead actors are in totally different category when it comes to martial arts (movies)

compare:
Daniel Wu to Finn Jones

Well, I agree, but it isn't just Daniel Wu.  Even all the secondary actors are managed pretty well in Badlands.  Kinda apples and oranges, though, Badlands is going for a completely different style.  For what it's worth, I like most of what they get out of Iron Fist.  Finn Jones isn't a physical genius, but it works well enough for me.  So I lament the loss of the series.

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Reply #171 on: October 18, 2018, 08:02:35 AM

I doubt that canceling Iron Fist will result in less Mavel on TV.  It just means something else gets a chance.

True enough.  And I discovered yesterday that Into The Badlands actually has both a season 2 and 3 now.  I assume most of you have seen some of it, but THAT is how you do some martial arts choreography.  I mean, it is ridiculous.  But amazingly well done.

Not really fair to put it on the choreographer when the 2 lead actors are in totally different category when it comes to martial arts (movies)

compare:
Daniel Wu to Finn Jones

Well, I agree, but it isn't just Daniel Wu.  Even all the secondary actors are managed pretty well in Badlands.  Kinda apples and oranges, though, Badlands is going for a completely different style.  For what it's worth, I like most of what they get out of Iron Fist.  Finn Jones isn't a physical genius, but it works well enough for me.  So I lament the loss of the series.

Its not the casting. One show is boring. The other isn't.

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Reply #172 on: October 20, 2018, 12:30:21 AM

Luke Cage canceled also.

Some people are hoping this might lead to a Heroes for Hire series. Personally I think it's just as likely that either Netflix's deal with Marvel is winding down, or Netflix realized that 4-6 Marvel series don't get them any more subs than 2-3.

Personally, despite being a big Marvel fan I haven't watched any of the Netflix stuff since Punisher (which I generally liked). Season 1 of Daredevil was good because they got the Spartacus showrunner to do it. Everything else has been uneven and poorly paced but (up until Iron Fist anyway) elevated by good casting.
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Reply #173 on: October 20, 2018, 05:54:36 AM

Disney have always been absolutely hard headed about ending these licencing deals when it suits them.

I'd be sad but in no way surprised if dd3, p2 and jj3 wrap up the Netflix marvel series.

That would leave us with 12 seasons and a longer running time than the abc shows.

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Reply #174 on: October 20, 2018, 05:39:18 PM

Could also be that the Marvel TV division is continuing to fall out of favor. When they announced a while back that they'd be doing various miniseries for the eventual Disney streaming service, the interesting part was that they are being done by the film division and not Loeb and the Marvel TV folks.

Inhumans and the first season of Iron Fist were pretty high profile failures. Cloak & Dagger and Runaways have received fairly decent reviews, but the fact that they have to spread their content across Netflix, Hulu, ABC, and Freeform suggest that they don't have any cohesive overall strategy. Despite the pilot for New Warriors supposedly testing well with Disney Execs, they seem unable to find a home for it. There was a pilot order for a Damage Control series a few years back that it doesn't sound like anything ever came of. Agents of Shield will wind down next Summer although filming for it started in July. They finished filming season 2 of Punisher and season 2 of Runways, are either done with or are currently filming season 2 of Jessica Jones, and season 2 of Cloak and Dagger was scheduled to start sometime last month.

The Marvel TV people work on Legion and Gifted also in some capacity, but aside from that I'm not sure what, if anything they're tasked with currently. Maybe they will have some sort of Heroes for Hire announcement but right now I'm not really expecting it.
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