Dr. Strange

[apocrypha]

Who is the villain supposed to be?

It's Hannibal Lecter, duh.

[Khaldun]

So Mikkelsen is listed on IMDB as "Kaecilius".

In the comics, Kaecilius is a sorcerer who gives Strange a bit of difficulty early in his career but he is always a henchman for Baron Mordo.

[Margalis]

Edit: Oops, fucked up my spoiler tags! Fixed.

[Khaldun]

I suspect they're going to try to make Mordo genuinely sympathetic to give him some ongoing legs, a la Loki/Hiddleston.

If you strip away the Stan Lee melodrama/mysterious Orient stuff in the early Strange stories, Mordo's story has some potential complexity to it.  In the comics, he's the son of an irrelevant, grandiose, melancholy Central European aristocrat who knew some odds and ends about magic. He finds his way to the Ancient One and studies dutifully with him for a long time. He begins to sense that the Ancient One is not telling him everything--is holding back some of his knowledge. So he starts to study darker magics on his own and realizes just how much the Ancient One isn't telling him. Then some white guy who is a total asshole shows up and the Ancient One is instantly "come study with me" and treats Strange like a favorite son.

Basically, this suddenly becomes a re-telling of Amadeus: Mordo is Salieri, the man who isn't quite good enough no matter how hard he tries, displaced by a person who is naturally gifted at the art. This could be especially good if Cumberbatch retains some traces of Strange's pre-magical arrogance. The way the MCU has developed, Strange and Stark are turning into really great mirrors/foils for each other--they have got to set aside some time for them to interact in one of the Avengers Infinity War movies.

[Lakov_Sanite]

This could be especially good if Cumberbatch retains some traces of Strange's pre-magical arrogance.

Cumberbatch's arrogence meter STARTS at british nobility and only goes up from there. 

[jgsugden]

Dan Harmon to insert a few new scenes... I guess they wanted to lighten it up.

[Furiously]

Dan Harmon to insert a few new scenes... I guess they wanted to lighten it up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubNFViNtA80

[Soulflame]

The creator of Community?  Seriously?

[Furiously]

I think you mean Dan Harmon the creator of Water and Power!

[NowhereMan]

Well this was decent fun. Another origin movie but Marvel seem to have the template for that down, the inclusion of magic felt pretty natural although there wasn't a lot of exploration of how it works or what kind of limits it has beyond some vague suggestions of unintended consequences. There's strong set ups for future plots and the mid credits sequence pretty clearly shows the next appearance of Strange

[Soulflame]

I keep forgetting that the US is a secondary or tertiary market for movies now.

 

[NowhereMan]

Wait, Google says US release date was 13/10. If it's later that would explain the silence in this thread.

Or was that a dig at the movie having stuff happen in Hong Kong and London? Cause I think they actually did a fairly good job of not feeling like they were shoehorning in location shots but keeping things international.

[HaemishM]

The Marvel movies are all released a week or so ahead of the US Release, which in this case is Nov. 4th.

[Soulflame]

No, it was a general comment that the US doesn't seem to get movies (at least from Marvel) in the first week of actual release.  It's usually the second or third week.

Which I find weird.

[NowhereMan]

That... actually is kind of weird. Well, let me tell you poor third world yanks that this is a pretty fun Marvel movie. I'd say it's probably an Ant-man level flick with better quality actors and more impressive visual effects.

[MahrinSkel]

So I had to go look at this (Marvel opening movies overseas) and apparently, it's a deliberate marketing strategy, by opening in the UK a week or two earlier, positive buzz actually makes the US opening bigger.

--Dave

[Khaldun]

So,

good enough, I guess.

Cumberbatch did not entirely work in the role, I think. I'm hard-pressed to say why exactly. Maybe that he never really gets a moment of gravitas, just cleverness? Strange needs the occasional moment of portentous gravitas, it's in the DNA of the character. I did like that the climax does not depend on Strange suddenly becoming a completely finished master of the mystic arts--that's important for keeping the character viable, to give him things he still needs to learn, some room for future emotional growth. I like Mordo's arc also. More later as other people see it--there's much to like, the visuals are the first really imaginative ones in a Marvel film, but I think they're definitely coming up against a narrative wall that may be impossible to overcome that's a result of the source material.

[Threash]

I did like that the climax does not depend on Strange suddenly becoming a completely finished master of the mystic arts--that's important for keeping the character viable, to give him things he still needs to learn, some room for future emotional growth.

I thought the situation at the end was the perfect set up to have him go from amateur to badass if they were willing to let it go long enough.

[Khaldun]

Yes. It's a good set-up for him to step into the role in his next film. That part was very nicely handled--they left something for him to do/become in the next movie. You could compare it to Thor where all of the character's growth is handled too neatly in the first film--from arrogance to humility in one short week or so, after centuries of being an over-confident dick. Strange has plenty of room for further growth.

I do wonder

[HaemishM]

I saw this today and it was fantastic, IMO. No, it didn't break any huge narrative ground or acting but what it did do was be visually stunning. The climactic fight scene where the combatants are fighting forward in time as everything around them goes backwards in time was incredibly clever and well-done. That may have been one of my favorite sequences of all Marvel movies just on how insanely difficult the setups must have been, how complex of a concept that fight was and yet it was filmed so well, there was no need for exposition about what was going on. That scene was just an amazing piece of film.

The story didn't break any ground. It was a very necessary origin story both in terms of an unknown character (by film audiences) as well as adding a very important piece to the Marvel Cinematic Universe (mysticism) and it did that very well. Of all of the Marvel movies, I felt this one worked so well on its own without having to be tied in by anything but the merest of mentions. There was a lot of meta subtlety to how they set this movie up that really impressed me. There's also plenty of story threads for future movies.

[SurfD]

I only  really had two somewhat minor complaints about the movie.

First, having seen the movie now, I get a lot more why people are comparing it to the matrix.  Considering the source character, there was far too little overt "magic" and "mysticism" going on for the vast majority of the movie.   It just didn't wow me like I was hoping for from a Dr Strange movie.  It needed a bit more harry potter and a bit less matrix to make it feel right, I think.

Second, I just really don't like the timeline.  Much like my major gripe about Thor 1, where as mentioned, they compressed most of  his character development into a single bloody week, Strange feels off.  I mean, unless I totally misread one of the line drops in the movie, 99% of this entire movie takes place AFTER Civil War, which  just somehow seems wrong.  They should have had Stranges story take place over several years in-between other movies, unless they are really,  hardcore, trying to sell the idea that Strange is the magical prodigy of all prodigies and mastered the mystic arts in a handful of months.......

[Velorath]

I only  really had two somewhat minor complaints about the movie.

First, having seen the movie now, I get a lot more why people are comparing it to the matrix.  Considering the source character, there was far too little overt "magic" and "mysticism" going on for the vast majority of the movie.   It just didn't wow me like I was hoping for from a Dr Strange movie.  It needed a bit more harry potter and a bit less matrix to make it feel right, I think.

Second, I just really don't like the timeline.  Much like my major gripe about Thor 1, where as mentioned, they compressed most of  his character development into a single bloody week, Strange feels off.  I mean, unless I totally misread one of the line drops in the movie, 99% of this entire movie takes place AFTER Civil War, which  just somehow seems wrong.  They should have had Stranges story take place over several years in-between other movies, unless they are really,  hardcore, trying to sell the idea that Strange is the magical prodigy of all prodigies and mastered the mystic arts in a handful of months.......

But he hasn't really mastered the mystic arts. That he survives the movie at all is largely due his affinity with a couple of artifacts, one of which has a mind of its own and protects him on multiple occasions. Even his victory at the end is thanks to him outsmarting his enemies rather than beating them through being a better sorcerer. As far as magic goes, we seem generally see him do the same basic stuff most of the other sorcerers do. I liked that because at least to start with it avoids one of the recurring issues in a lot of the comics in that it's hard to create dramatic tension when magic can do anything as required by the story. I felt that they ended this movie with Strange still having a lot of room to grow, both as a sorcerer and as a person.

[Khaldun]

As far as timeline, I think we only know that at some point while Strange is training, the Avengers have formed. They're careful when he gets back in touch with Dr. Palmer to not have her specify how long it's been since she saw him last, except that it's been a long time. I think you could reasonably infer years--that he begins training well before the events of the first Iron Man film, even. If someone picked up on something specific that I missed, let me know--the first time that I think we get a concrete time marker is when Wong says that mystics protect the world just like the Avengers do, and that comes well into Strange's training. From that point on, I think things happen in relatively quick progression, but there's even potentially weeks or months in between Wong's speech about the sanctums and the big battles.

[HaemishM]

The timeline is certainly muddled, but there's absolutely nothing that says it took place within a week. In fact, I inferred that Strange was training for years. Palmer certainly hasn't seen him in a long time. It's well within reason that his crash could have taken place before Iron Man 1. The last half of the movie, from the destruction of the sanctums to the final battle was certainly a day or two, but we only know that it took place sometime after Avengers 1 (can't even firmly say it was after Age of Ultron). The after-credits scene with Thor is certainly after Ultron but doesn't even have to be after Civil War since Thor wasn't involved in that at all, and it clearly shows Strange as a more assured, seasoned sorcerer with a reputation. In fact, if you remember they mentioned Stephen Strange in Winter Soldier, meaning he had to have been established as a mystic expert after Avengers 1 and before Ultron.

[Lakov_Sanite]

It's been confirmed that the patient with the back injury mentioned in the car scene if the hammer tech that got his spine crushed in iron man 2 so that is when the initial accident happened.  I'm not sure how much time passes between that scene and thor ragnarok however.

[Hutch]

I saw Avengers Tower early in the movie, in one of the shots of NYC. It had the "A" logo on it.
But, I can't remember if that was before or after the car accident. If it was before the accident, they made a boo boo in the timeline, as IM2 came before either Avengers movie.

[Khaldun]

The computer in Winter Soldier doesn't have to know he's a sorcerer; it's a predictive model of people who might eventually cause trouble for Hydra. The old Stephen Strange could well have been targeted.

I heard the oblique reference to IM2 in the phone call; though it could also have been to Rhodes in Civil War, actually, based on the description? And yeah, Avengers Tower too. I really wish they'd run it back all the way to before the other MCU movies--I would have loved the parallelism of Strange's hero journey running quietly alongside the rest.

[Venkman]

Just got back. Loved it, kids loved it, even wife liked it, and she's not at all into comic book movies. Her favorite character in this flick was the cape

I don't disagree with the critiques here though. Limited gravitas, more Inception than Harry Potter, and the timeline was weird. I don't have any clue about the source material though. The analogy I don't go with is the Matrix though. Matrix was all about Neo and his m4d fightzorz skills, with some environmental impact when convenient. Strange (the movie anyway) was all about messing with reality with some "oh by the way" martial arts thrown in for action. That felt more like the trippy Inception stuff, even if the SFX themselves weren't a deadringer for it too.

I missed most of the clues you all here saw. They only implied length of time with things like "when you first came here" (which isn't something used when talking about yesterday ) and I think at one point Mordo saying something about "back when you began".

Loved the mid-credits scene.

[Phildo]

My only complaint was that the majority of the mystical fighting ultimately boiled down to punching with glowy fists and melee weapons.  Otherwise, I thought it was pretty good.

[Ard]

Magic punchy glowing fists?  In the Marvel universe?  

[Merusk]

I saw Avengers Tower early in the movie, in one of the shots of NYC. It had the "A" logo on it.
But, I can't remember if that was before or after the car accident. If it was before the accident, they made a boo boo in the timeline, as IM2 came before either Avengers movie.

It was after the accident, when Strange is first running from Kaecilius. That puts that portion of the story after IM2 but prior to Ultron when the tower was destroyed/ abandoned. If they'd showed us more Infinity gems we'd have been able to better nail down the timeline.

That they mentioned Strange having 7 surgeries on his hands means a series of years from the accident to that point at least. They gave some subtle visual clues with the hair as well, but I think something more concrete was needed. Not bludgening like timestamps but a few more in-universe cues like the tech accident reference. I can see the difficulty there, though as there's no real good way to weave them in when he's off in Kathmandu.

I can dig the criticism of "too much punching." I was a little dismayed that they were punchy wizards, but at the same time it gives the actors something to react to and be familiar with. When's the last time you saw ANYONE do spell-flingy maneuvers that didn't look sad and overplayed because it's very easy to ham-up that sort of thing. Even with good CGI the actors look silly. I think Ian McDermond in ROTJ was the last time I saw anyone even halfway convincing with magic, and he couldn't replicate that for ROTS.

[HaemishM]

One continuity goof - when Strange is putting on his watch, it shows some of his awards. One of them clearly says 2016. Meaning it couldn't have been set before Avengers because that was 2012. 

Of course, none of those movies were set in a specific year so it means nothing. Just a funny observation.

[Threash]

The timeline makes zero sense so trying to figure it out is pointless.  His Lambo is also a 2016 model, so we have as many hints that the movie starts in present time as anything else.

[jgsugden]

Time line aside,I enjoyed it a lot. I especially enjoyed that the final victory was not achieved through repeated punches... well, not in the traditional sense.

[Khaldun]

One of my favorite things about the very best arc in the Lee/Ditko Strange comics was the visualization of the battle between Mordo and Strange after Strange returns from seeing Eternity. But basically it would look phony, I think, if you tried to do it straight up in that style. Basically, Mordo fires complicated energy forms at Strange, Strange uses shields to desperately defend himself against a wildly overpowered Mordo, and it's very kinetic in the sense that they are doing both martial arts physical forms and complicated hand gestures. Strange eventually tricks Mordo with a spell that makes him seem to have a duplicate (it's just an illusion), pretending he learned that from Eternity, and when Mordo finally is shown that it's a trick, he's out-of-control angry, which means he leaves himself open for a counterattack.

I think the "punchy" style in the film is as close to that as they could get--doing it straight out of the comic would mean something like a Star Wars gun battle only with curving, unpredictable energy forms and shields on the other end--it would require, among other things, that the protagonists be at a distance from each other--the cinematography of it would be complex and unsatisfying. So I was pretty happy in the end with what they did--there's even room for them to move to other visual styles if they like, as Strange gains a deeper or more complex understanding of magic.