Dr. Strange

[jgsugden]

Tilda Swinton as the Ancient One.  Interesting.  http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/tilda-swinton-talks-join-benedict-798348 

She has the presence that I think the role needs... I'm just a little surprised that they avoided an Asian actor given the efforts to include Asian influences in the recent films and TV...

I'm not generally a fan of ethnic redefinition in roles that have a strong ethnic component - even when the original version was well over the cultural sensitivity line.  It sometimes works out fine, but I much prefer to see them maintain the core aspects of existing characters and introduce diversity through new characters (in the source material and the adaptations). 

[Margalis]

I love Tilda Swinton but I hate Benedict Cumberbund.

Swinton can play a man, I say make her Strange!

[Evildrider]

I love Tilda Swinton but I hate Benedict Cumberbund.

Swinton can play a man, I say make her Strange!

Yeah I'm not a Cumberbitch myself, although I think he may do fine in the role. 

As for Swinton as the Ancient One, meh.  I don't mind race/gender changes for these smaller characters.  I have issues with the bigger ones, like the Human Torch.

[Khaldun]

Sigh. Well, anyway, I'm happy with any of it if the actor is good and the script is good. Literally doesn't matter--the essential thing of the Human Torch is that he's a cocky, not-altogether-bright, slightly shallow young guy; the essential thing of the Ancient One is wisdom, remoteness, age, seeming frailty masking great strength. "White" and "Asian" aren't essential for either.

[Tannhauser]

It's an odd choice, but I'm not married to the Dr. Strange lore so OK.

[Ironwood]

Questions :

1 - Who's the Ancient One ?
2 - Given my question above, what percentage of current MCU audience is going to give a flying fuck ?

[Evildrider]

Ancient One is Strange's teacher.  I don't think they are even going to have the Ancient One outside of flashbacks, if they are sticking to their "no more origin stories" plan.

99.99% will not care.

[Ironwood]

Ah, so the Tibetan Monk type person, if I recall anything about his lore ?

Odd choice, but agreed that no-one will care.  She's played a Witch and an Angel.  I'm sure a monk will not stretch her too much.  As long as she doesn't wield weapons, she should still get plusses to her DR.

[Khaldun]

Yeah, monk in the Himalayas sort of thing. Pretty much bog-standard holy man at the top of mountain kind of thing, except that he (she) trains Strange in mystic rather than martial arts.

I'm more interested in what they do about Strange's trusty Asian manservant Wong. *That* needs some updating. I also think Strange's usual number-1 enemy Baron Mordo (and the number-2 Big Bad who is usually backing Mordo, Dormammu) need some creative reimagining.

[jgsugden]

Just a thought - they try to tie the different movies together a bit.  If the Eye is in the hands of the Norse Gods, perhaps they want to tie the Ancient One to the visitations of the Norse Gods we've seen discussed in Thor and SHIELD.  That would give a strong reason for the re-envisioning.

On another note, I don't think they need to overhaul Mordo too much - if they ground him then they have farther to stretch to get to Dormammu.  He needs to be a bit out there to set the stage for the step child of Surtur and Cthulhu.

I agree that the original version of Wong would be offensive to modern sensibilities.   

[Ironwood]

Didn't Kato get a modern overhaul that wasn't that offensive ?

I mean, sure, Green Hornet was the most offensive film ever, but the actual character, not so much ?

[HaemishM]

I liked Green Hornet for what it was.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Reimagining characters is fine, stunt casting is not.  The difference between the two is one take a character in a different direction and the other is to shoehorn in diversity, usually the difference lies in how much more you need to explain to the audience for it to make sense. 

[Khaldun]

"Hi, I'm Johnny Storm, nice to meet you, Reed. Yeah, Sue's my half-sister."

Big stretch.

"I'm a mystic who hangs out at the top of a Himalayan mountain. Welcome, Stephen Strange."

All done. Sure, my great-grandpa who grew up reading Dr. Fu Manchu or whatever might be wondering where the orientals are at in a scene set in the mysterious Himalayas but that's about it.

Unless you're talking about "major comic-book fans who need it explained to them", but I thought we'd long since established that they don't fucking matter as an audience that needs extensive pandering to. Especially in this case, where it's only one segment of comic-book fans who get all butthurt when characters who aren't defined by race get race-changed.

I can really think of only three Marvel characters where you'd really have to do serious work to race-change them: Thor, Captain America and Black Panther. Even Thor you could mess with (think Heimdall), but Captain America has to function as a mainstream symbol during World War II, a time with established prejudices. Black Panther pretty much has to be a king from Africa, it's fundamental to the character.

[RhyssaFireheart]

"Hi, I'm Johnny Storm, nice to meet you, Reed. Yeah, Sue's my half step-sister."

Big stretch.

Fixed.

Not that I care one way or the other, but just making them step siblings fixes that relationship if it's retained in the movie.

[jgsugden]

Adoption also works.  I think that is the route they're using - Sue is adopted.

It all depends on how much of the Ancient One they use and what elements of the character's history fold into the movie.  There is a lot of freedom if the Ancient One is merely referenced in passing flashbacks and we'll never get a story with her as a focus.  If, however, part of the story incorporates the origin on the Ancient One (where two spellcasters fight over their small village), then there are more impacts.

Mostly, I'm just surprised by the move away from involving Asian cultures into the movie.  I expected them to update the concepts so that we didn't see a reanimated Peter Sellers doing dual roles as Wong and the Ancient One.  Abandoning the Asian cultural identity was not a path I expected... (although it is not certain this is what they've done).

[sickrubik]

I can really think of only three Marvel characters where you'd really have to do serious work to race-change them: Thor, Captain America and Black Panther. Even Thor you could mess with (think Heimdall), but Captain America has to function as a mainstream symbol during World War II, a time with established prejudices. Black Panther pretty much has to be a king from Africa, it's fundamental to the character.

You could argue that a Tuskegee Airmen kind of avenue for Cap could work.

[Raguel]

"Hi, I'm Johnny Storm, nice to meet you, Reed. Yeah, Sue's my half-sister."

Big stretch.

It's not as big a stretch as you might imagine. It's been known to happen, even when siblings have the same parents.

[Ironwood]

I liked Green Hornet for what it was.

Really ?

I thought it was a shitshow.  Which I guess means it was ok for what it was.

But I can't stand Seth.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I didn't mention FF.....

[Merusk]

I love Tilda Swinton but I hate Benedict Cumberbund.

Swinton can play a man, I say make her Strange!

Yeah I'm not a Cumberbitch myself, although I think he may do fine in the role. 

As for Swinton as the Ancient One, meh.  I don't mind race/gender changes for these smaller characters.  I have issues with the bigger ones, like the Human Torch.

Yeah, initially I thought they'd done away with the Sue-Bobby relationship with the first trailer and I was as WTF as you. As has been covered, it turns out he's either adopted or a half-sibling. That justifies it enough while also modernizing it in a big way. Modern families aren't the atomic ideal from the 50's & 60's.

As the Actor himself stated recently, FF is about very different people coming together as a team & family.

[jgsugden]

.... As has been covered, it turns out he's either adopted or a half-sibling...

Other way around - Sue is the adopted one by all appearances - the father looks like Johnny, not Sue.

[Margalis]

I have to admit I don't like the FF casting because it does fundamentally change the relationship. Now if they were both black that would be fine, but adoption / half-sister is very different from full siblings. At the same time I'm not super angry about it or something though - I mean, black Johnny Storm can't be any worse than Jessica Alba was.

The gender of The Ancient One isn't really important as far as I know.

[Nevermore]

Maybe the Ancient One is like Dr. Orpheus' mentor and can change shape.

[sickrubik]

You can genetically get light and dark skinned siblings too. It's not out of the question.

[Evildrider]

You can genetically get light and dark skinned siblings too. It's not out of the question.

They have said she's the adopted sister though.  Now you can have that awkward, not related, brother/sister romantic chemistry.

[jgsugden]

Marvel. You can have that with biologically related siblings, too. Ultimate SW + Q.

[Khaldun]

"Hi, I'm Johnny Storm, nice to meet you, Reed. Yeah, Sue's my half-sister."

Big stretch.

It's not as big a stretch as you might imagine. It's been known to happen, even when siblings have the same parents.

Sigh. Do I need green text? Welcome to the sarchasm.

[Raguel]

"Hi, I'm Johnny Storm, nice to meet you, Reed. Yeah, Sue's my half-sister."

Big stretch.

It's not as big a stretch as you might imagine. It's been known to happen, even when siblings have the same parents.

Sigh. Do I need green text? Welcome to the sarchasm.

heh.

I've been having this convo since Jordan was announced as Johnny so I just post out of reflex now. 

[HaemishM]

The sad part is that it looks like the re-raced Johnny Storm may be the best thing about the new Fantastic Four movie.

[jgsugden]

The sad part is that it looks like the re-raced Johnny Storm may be the best thing about the new Fantastic Four movie.

I'm hearing that people are really going to be looking forward to the end credits...

[Bunk]

I have to admit I don't like the FF casting because it does fundamentally change the relationship. Now if they were both black that would be fine, but adoption / half-sister is very different from full siblings. At the same time I'm not super angry about it or something though - I mean, black Johnny Storm can't be any worse than Jessica Alba was.

The gender of The Ancient One isn't really important as far as I know.

Excuse me? My sister and I would like to refute that with you.

[Lantyssa]

I have to admit I don't like the FF casting because it does fundamentally change the relationship. Now if they were both black that would be fine, but adoption / half-sister is very different from full siblings.

I'm not sure why.  My best friend growing up was adopted, and I never thought of him and his sister as any different from other siblings.  Or that his parents weren't his parents.  They're as much a full family as mine is.

[Margalis]

I was thinking less about in real life and more in comic book terms.

For almost every comic book character with unknown parents, a mysterious past, parents killed in an accident at birth, etc, (that I can think of anyway) that becomes a major plot point. And these days in movies / TV there's a push towards being overly clever in terms of relationships with everyone somehow secretly connected - for example in the new Spider-Man move how his parents work for Oscorp or something.

If one of them is adopted I fully expect there to be some hints that their parents are Howard the Duck and She-Hulk or some shit. Look at all the people jerking off about who Starlord's father might be. Even if that's not the plan now it's the sort of thing future writers will have trouble staying away from because it's so obvious and lazy and make that a plot point. (There is already a sequel planned)

In the past Marvel has milked "who are their real parents???" storylines for years. (See the Summers family)

If there is just a throwaway line like "I'm adopted deal with it" that's fine but reports have called it a "sub-story" which worries me. Basically I fully expect that a major plot point of FF4-2 will be the hunt for Sue's biological parents.

I didn't mean to imply that in real life adoptive siblings love each other less than biological ones. I apologize for that.

[Khaldun]

You know, with this new movie, worrying that a sequel might feature a storyline about Sue Storm's "real parents" strikes me as being about a thousand miles ahead of both people who are like "meh, not that interested period" and "meh, I love the Fantastic Four JUST LIKE STAN AND JACK DID THEM AROUND ISSUE #49 IN THE 1960s".

This is like showing up at a fetish conference with a fetish so weird that there's no one else there to be kinky with.