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Author Topic: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!  (Read 117084 times)
kaid
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Reply #105 on: November 26, 2014, 08:12:18 AM

It's worse than that.  If I was starting an Alt, I'd leave tradeskills until I hit THE PAST and start there.  You can do everything at level 1.

I think your market is humped mate.


There are a couple odd ball things you need max level skill. The leather worker mount requires level 700 leatherworking skill but almost everything else including the max level purple armor gear requires a skill of 1 to do it so if you have a crafter who is slacking don't worry about it.
Ironwood
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Reply #106 on: November 26, 2014, 08:32:17 AM

Sorry, I think I've come across badly ;  What I mean is that you can learn to 700 in Draneor using only the garrison.  If I was leveling, I wouldn't even bother gathering shit, I'd just level in my Garrison at 90.

Which is pretty much what the wife is doing with some of her Archeology and Fishing for the alts that couldn't be bothered.  It's almost like WoD is a subgame that doesn't need the rest. I had some characters that got stuck leveling cooking due to the fucking squid requirement and they didn't fish.  They'd level in seconds in WoD.

Mental.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Merusk
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Reply #107 on: November 26, 2014, 08:36:18 AM

It's worse than that.  If I was starting an Alt, I'd leave tradeskills until I hit THE PAST and start there.  You can do everything at level 1.

I think your market is humped mate.


It's completely humped to the point I'm considering dumping Mining entirely now that I've got the "dranic stone" achieve. There's just no need anymore and I'd be better served having a 2nd profession so I can maximize my crafting since it's useful now.

I had mining on 3 characters previously for Engineering, Mining and Blacksmithing and used every bit of ore from each just to raise one profession at a time. Now, however, I have only one character who's sending ore to all 3. The Time-gated materials have such low resource requirements that when combined with the mine it doesn't make sense to have gathering.  

Let's do the math: I have 4 stacks of 200 ore for both types right now. Once a day CDs use 10 of each and the "secrets" for patterns use 5 Blackrock.  Work orders use 2 of each, and a max of 6 work orders a day can be completed.   So in total that's 22 True Iron and 27 Black Iron a day you can ever use. No more.  My L2 mine pulls more than that in a single circuit of the mine.

I realized this morning that there's only way any of this makes sense.  F2P resource gathering models.  I had my epiphany while doing Clash of Clans and this is working the same way. Everything's time gated now and the free stuff doesn't matter.  Add on "buy gems to complete work orders" and you've got the exact same model.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
kaid
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Reply #108 on: November 26, 2014, 08:36:36 AM

I think the sort of island to itself was the original intent of WOD. In early alpha apparently you could not return to azeroth until you were level 100 or close to it. You basically blew up the portal that would let you go back so the self contained nature of the expansion was intentional. Really this is the first expansion since probably lich king my mains have not bothered to leave the expansion content at all. Everything I need is out there and 90% of it is in my garrison so I have no real need/desire to go back to stormwind/iron forge for the forseeable future. When you have void storage/banks/auction houses trade skill nodes/crafting stations my garrison is pretty much one stop shopping for me.
Ironwood
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Reply #109 on: November 26, 2014, 08:46:53 AM

You should dump mining Merusk.  The Mine is easy to get to level 2 and it pretty much supplies any alt you'd ever want at that level.

Also, the Barn (also known as The Slaughterhouse ) will get you all the leather or Fur you need for a very tiny time outlay.  The herb garden gives you massive amounts of herbs and with the right follower you can specify which one.

I can't think of any gathering kill you'd really need anymore ?  Am I wrong ?


"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
luckton
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Reply #110 on: November 26, 2014, 09:02:32 AM

You're not wrong, but I don't think it will stay this way for long. Surely the plight of all of this Dranic Stone I've mined needs to be used for something other than overloading my work order dude.

I wish the Trade Post would let me specify what resource to use for work orders to turn into G. Resources. Then I could easily dump all of this Stone into that.

Or better yet, if I have both Mining and a minion assigned to the Mine, DRASTICALLY reduce the processing time of Mine work orders. Like an hour, tops.

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
Merusk
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Reply #111 on: November 26, 2014, 09:19:23 AM

It doesn't seem that way at all, no.  I mean, maybe there will be some big shake-up down the road but right now they're all pointless.  Even Jewelcrafting doesn't churn through Ore to get gems, because gems are a time-gated thing.

Just talking this through and actually doing the math for mining has convinced me to drop Skinning, Mining, etc on all my characters. It's pointless, at least until Blizzard realizes it, panics and 'fixes' things.  

Or better yet, if I have both Mining and a minion assigned to the Mine, DRASTICALLY reduce the processing time of Mine work orders. Like an hour, tops.

I've about convinced myself they're trying F2P modeling, so there's no way that'll happen. Minions to reduce time doesn't sell virtual speed potions.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 09:21:08 AM by Merusk »

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
luckton
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Reply #112 on: November 26, 2014, 09:26:59 AM

But they're not selling virtual speed potions, at least not yet. The F2P model only works if there's some kind of exchange of goods/services in order to get something for yourself either quicker or acquire something that they just don't give away for free.

10 million people strong kinda negates the need to break down to the F2P model for business. But if they're going to implement the mechanics, they need to implement ALL of the mechanics. Let me sacrifice a follower spot to get better benefits for the building they're assigned to, and give me an incentive to leave them there all the time instead of just popping them in, collecting the work orders, and then popping them back out.

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
Merusk
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Reply #113 on: November 26, 2014, 09:50:01 AM

Yeah I didn't mean in WoW though as I don't see that ever going the F2P route. However 10m people is a GREAT test bed for seeing how things work and where the bottlenecks/ bitch points are at. Run it at 4h for a good long while making tweaks on the edges and you've got more data than any of your competitors and you got paid for it.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
kaid
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Reply #114 on: November 26, 2014, 09:58:34 AM

You should dump mining Merusk.  The Mine is easy to get to level 2 and it pretty much supplies any alt you'd ever want at that level.

Also, the Barn (also known as The Slaughterhouse ) will get you all the leather or Fur you need for a very tiny time outlay.  The herb garden gives you massive amounts of herbs and with the right follower you can specify which one.

I can't think of any gathering kill you'd really need anymore ?  Am I wrong ?



As a leather worker the barn is totally sufficient to keep feeding your tannery for burnished leather. Although having skinning means you can devote your barn at level 2+ to making feasts or savage bloods. It is so nice  being able to crank out high quality feats without having to dick around with cooking I hate the cooking skill and really hated pandarian cooking so nice to not have to bother with it.
Ironwood
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Reply #115 on: November 26, 2014, 10:00:39 AM

I always liked cooking, but then they twined it with Fishing and, frankly, fuck fishing.  Archaeology was worse tho.

But you can now do that from your mine.  Jesus Wept, I don't know what they're doing over there.  I really don't.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #116 on: November 26, 2014, 10:29:22 AM

Fishing would be OK if the levelling curve wasn't so fucked. Any other profession regularly offers me new recipes that give me 1 skillpoint per use. Fishing doesn't. I won't even level faster if I fish in higher level zones. The levelling curve for fishing is fixed and you can't boost it and so you'll easily be outlevelled by cooking.

It also has no use except to provide resources for cooking which you won't need if you don't raid. At least mining or herbalism give you resoruces ou can use for crafting.
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #117 on: November 26, 2014, 10:41:49 AM

Think of the garrison as an alternative levelling system for professions. The main impetus of WoD is to be a tabula rasa for WoW, to bring back as many old players as possible and to make the barrier of entry as low as possible for new players. If you see WoD as being a reboot with Level 100 being the new Level 60 then it makes total sense.

Most new players won't stick to WoW if they have to start at level 1 and do a shitload of old content that is completely bereft of players. Until I hit 80 I usually was the only person in the zones I quested. I actually got a few of the rare mob achievements that way because nobodybothered to hunt them. I even did a few of the PVP quests to ge the boosts and was flagged for hours without anyone bothering me.

Even if they level no one will level professions while playing. With the way the levelling curve is now, levellling up professions actually slows you down. Most old players won't spend hours revisiting old zones to get their skills to max level and if I want to level up a different skill I start off at 1 again. Then there's the economy. Prices for crafting resources are ridiculous. On my server players regularly sell BC and WotLK resources for 5000 gold per stack or more so levellling via AH is prohibitively expensive.

The garrison gives players an alternative way to level professions and fucks with the economy, severely reducing the barrier of entry for raiding and dungeons for new and returning players.
luckton
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Reply #118 on: November 26, 2014, 01:07:19 PM

I tell ya what, F2P mechanics aside, I love running Garrison missions. Already got three of the 125 things I need for Chapter 2 of the legendary quest through missions, and my minions are slowly but surely becoming a force of power.

Being able to remote in to home from work and queue up more missions makes it even better  awesome, for real

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
Drubear
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Reply #119 on: November 26, 2014, 02:37:27 PM

Sea Scorpion segments - fished from coastal waters - are used to make health potions, so fishing is immediately helpful to people starting out. Bandages are made from Fur and segments as well.  Antivenom from Whiptail and Anti-disearse from Fire Ammonite suggest that First Aid is more tied in with Fishing than Cooking.. There is a whole series of meat dishes...

Still, however much I love Fishing (and let's be clear, much of it has to do with the Fishing Buddy addon) I was hoping for more from Garrisons for Fishing. But there's at least a building for it - poor Cooking and Archie got left out...
Ironwood
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Reply #120 on: November 26, 2014, 03:20:29 PM

You don't HAVE to fish for them tho.

And, again, if you do, it's all at level 1 dude. 

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Tannhauser
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Reply #121 on: November 26, 2014, 04:53:30 PM

Sorry for the minor derail, but I read in the strat guide about bodyguards.  Are they like SWTOR companions that quest and fight with you?  Do they talk? 
Merusk
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Reply #122 on: November 26, 2014, 05:06:47 PM

Yes, but no voice. The Death knight you get at the faction city is the only guaranteed Bodyguard I know of.  I have one other from a quest in the Akkroa area.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
SurfD
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Reply #123 on: November 26, 2014, 10:44:45 PM

Sorry for the minor derail, but I read in the strat guide about bodyguards.  Are they like SWTOR companions that quest and fight with you?  Do they talk? 
Appearently some of them are stupidly over tuned also.  The Horde Mage chick you get at the end of your ashran intro quest for example is appearently pulls better dps then most actual dps characters untill you start gearing up with heroic drops, makeing her pretty much the mandatory bodyguard.

Darwinism is the Gateway Science.
luckton
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Reply #124 on: November 27, 2014, 01:51:03 AM

There are five bodyguards available to both sides; it's not a trait that randomly appears, but is static set. As you run around and kill things, you gain rep with them. At level 2 standing, they get a new powerful ability. At level 3 standing, they get a utility power for you.

Play me out, WoWHead.

http://www.wowhead.com/guide=2533#bodyguards

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
Ironwood
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Reply #125 on: November 27, 2014, 02:04:03 AM

Viv is mental. 

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
luckton
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Reply #126 on: November 27, 2014, 02:25:39 AM

Maybe, but I'll bet she's not as bad as Illona, who's a pain in the arse to farm with because she wants to tank EVERYTHING, but doesn't have any self-healing or mitigation tools aside from AoE taunting every 5 seconds.

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #127 on: November 27, 2014, 02:32:53 AM

Is it on purpose that XP from quests and monsters is on a very diminishing curve in Cata? I hit 85 while questing in Twilight Hinterlands and suddenly mobs only give me 40 xp and quest reward XP have dropped to 2000 - 4000 XP per quest. Quests are still marked as yellow in my log though.

Is it on purpose that damage and crit go up so quickly when you have "outlevelled" a zone. I've noticed that while XP reqards went down significantly once I hit 85 damaga went up quite a bit. It's a bit ridiculous that even just a level or so ago I had to manage exactly what to kill and had to use food and water between fights and now I two shot the same mobs with 15,000 damage criticals.
Ironwood
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Reply #128 on: November 27, 2014, 02:44:48 AM

Isn't 85 and xpac divide ?  There's your answer.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #129 on: November 27, 2014, 02:50:21 AM

The person who was responsible for the general quest design in Cataclysm should be slapped hard.

Don't teleport me to a totally different zone just because I clicked "accept" on a quest when 90% of the time you have a "ask person X to start" mode instead. If you do then don't tell me the major things I need to accomplish via a confusing in game cut scene or a lengthy dialog that only shows up in my chat windows. If you do don't put a failure mode in the quest just because I was confused and didn't know what to do.

At one point during questing in the Twilight Hinterlands I found myself suddenly standing beside Thrall at the Maelstrom with not a fucking clue what I was supposed to do except "Help Thrall against Deathwing" which was impossible because I'm a melee char standing on a tiny platform while the big fucking dragon was flying through the air half a mile from where I was. So I spent most of the quest being insulted and reprimanded by Thrall for doing fuck all until I magically completed the quest.

Then I was teleported back into the middle of another boss fight that I had no clue about and promptly died.

Shortly after I accepted a quest in Orgrimmar and suddenly found myself being teleported into a Level 85 heroic instance in the Caverns of Time with no way of going back and not a single hint (except the dungeon icon in the log) that it was a quest where a group would probably be a good idea.

Don't do this especially when you've devalued the Elite moniker so much before. When you design quests that have your players go it alone against a boss mob just because you'll want to have yet another opportunity for a Lore Character to save the day then make it fucking clear that no, this is a quest where you probably should have a group because this time Garrosh or Orc Jesus won't magically show up to save the day.

Also if I wanted to watch extended cut scenes in which badly written characters do badly written things while I have no agency then I'd go and play Metal Gear Solid instead
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #130 on: November 27, 2014, 02:57:47 AM

Isn't 85 and xpac divide ?  There's your answer.

It has been that way before though. Also it gives you even less of an incentive to finish up old zones. Which is pretty bad because most Cata zones and a few WotLK ones are unusable if you haven't done at least the minimum number of quests necessary to get rid of the zoning stuff.

Hyial for example is pretty much useless even for resource gathering until you went through all the zooning quests.
Ironwood
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Reply #131 on: November 27, 2014, 03:22:33 AM

Yeah, but that's the same as it ever was.

"I may, in fact, ding 90 in the first Panda zone.  I'm sure as hell not going to fucking stick around, even though I'm missing ALL the expansion because, frankly, there's another expansion and a garrison and better loot and why would I waste my fucking time ?"

This is the mindset of the bulk of the playerbase, so you're in a wee minority. 

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #132 on: November 27, 2014, 03:49:40 AM

I know.
Jeff Kelly
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I'm an apathetic, hedonistic, utilitarian, nihilistic existentialist.


Reply #133 on: November 27, 2014, 03:53:34 AM

It's the flip side of the zoning technology really. I like it because when done right it gives you the impression that you actually have an effect on the world as it changes due to your questing and Blizzard can do a lot of interesting stuff with it.

On the other hand it makes zones like Twilight Hinterlands completely pointless when you haven't put the minimum amount of quests (I had to do 45 until all the zoning was done) into them. The zonr doesn't even have any flight masters until a certain questing milestone uncovers them.
Merusk
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Reply #134 on: November 27, 2014, 07:52:34 PM

At one point during questing in the Twilight Hinterlands I found myself suddenly standing beside Thrall at the Maelstrom with not a fucking clue what I was supposed to do except "Help Thrall against Deathwing" which was impossible because I'm a melee char standing on a tiny platform while the big fucking dragon was flying through the air half a mile from where I was. So I spent most of the quest being insulted and reprimanded by Thrall for doing fuck all until I magically completed the quest.


Reading quests helps. That was a vision, not reality.  EVERYONE gets the same result.


In other news, I found a reason to keep one person harvesting; Primals. They don't drop often enough from the mine and I haven't gotten them at all in missions. They're useful for getting crafting mats.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 07:54:30 PM by Merusk »

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Ironwood
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Reply #135 on: November 28, 2014, 02:17:50 AM

So, you're harvesting to get crafting mats ?

Tell me more.

 Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
SurfD
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Reply #136 on: November 28, 2014, 03:11:16 AM

At one point during questing in the Twilight Hinterlands I found myself suddenly standing beside Thrall at the Maelstrom with not a fucking clue what I was supposed to do except "Help Thrall against Deathwing" which was impossible because I'm a melee char standing on a tiny platform while the big fucking dragon was flying through the air half a mile from where I was. So I spent most of the quest being insulted and reprimanded by Thrall for doing fuck all until I magically completed the quest.


Reading quests helps. That was a vision, not reality.  EVERYONE gets the same result.
I don't think there was anything in the quest itself that explained that bit.  You had to be paying attention to the NPC dialogue in your chat window before and after the event to figure out that the thing with Thrall on the cliff was a vision sent to fuck with your mind by the old god manifestation you were attacking.   You were supposed to feel helpless and confused as you tried to help Thrall and there appeared to be nothing you could do. because that was what the old god wanted you to feel.

Darwinism is the Gateway Science.
Jeff Kelly
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I'm an apathetic, hedonistic, utilitarian, nihilistic existentialist.


Reply #137 on: November 28, 2014, 04:22:16 AM

I hate the inconsistent design of those quests in cataclysm. I really do.

Sometimes they use pre-rendered in game cutscenes. sometimes they use interactive in game cut scenes, sometimes the quest text and dialogue is just shown in the chat window, sometimes you get the text in chat bubbles. Sometimes in the quest description itself. Sometimes you have voice overs and any combination of the above. Sometimes you get a "talk to x to start" option, sometimes they just dump you in medias res. Sometimes they give you crucial hints in the chat window, sometimes they do it via a sound effect and the raid announce mechanism (flashy yellow text in the middle of the screen)

There are even unskippable cut scenes, like the one in the final quest of Twilight Hinterlands with Cho'Gall. If you die during the boss fight you get reset to before the cut scene and have to rewatch everything.

Of all those things I hate the "dialogue and quest text in the chat window the most". With today's resolutions the text is tiny and hard to read and your focus is on what happens on screen during an event or boss fight and not necessarily on the tiny text that scrolls though your chat window.

For what it's worth they seem to have realized this in Mists of Pandaria because at least until now they usually stick to one kind of design with voice overs and chat bubble text for important or crucial stuff.
Ironwood
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Reply #138 on: November 28, 2014, 04:25:49 AM

It's still bad in Pandaria.  Leveling my old chaps to keep the wife company and if I have to listen to Lorewalker Cho and his FUCKING STUPID stories one more time I may kill someone.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Jeff Kelly
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I'm an apathetic, hedonistic, utilitarian, nihilistic existentialist.


Reply #139 on: November 28, 2014, 04:59:12 AM

Is that the "don't bring your petty conflict to our shores but feel free to stay around and bash each other's heads in" guy that usually shows up after every major quest ends? That guy is pretty annoying from the start. Also a pretty disgusting racial stereotype.

Also by the time the first zone is finished me and my Horde buddies have already murdered hundreds of Alliance and half of the animal population while liberating dozens of indentured Pandaren servants from their Alliance yoke (and I guess it's vice versa for the Alliance). So sorry buddy, but the conflict is already there and won't leave unless you're throwing everyone out with your "small but capable band of Pandaren Warriors".

The whole conceit of MoP is on a whole new level of stupid, even by WoW "lore" standards. Also Garrosh Hellscream is a stupid cunt and whoever allowed him to lead the horde should be drawn and quartered (especially since the Orc Space Jesus responsible for the mess then runs away to join those Earthen Ring hippies).

The overarching story was never a strong point of the Warcraft series but in Cataclsym and MoP it's gotten especially bad even by Metzen standards.
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