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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  World of Warcraft  |  Topic: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap! 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!  (Read 117061 times)
Merusk
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Reply #140 on: November 28, 2014, 08:41:36 AM

So, you're harvesting to get crafting mats ?

Tell me more.

 Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Primals are the way arou t the time cock block.  I needed a "reroll stats" item crafted but only had 5 resources and they take 10.  My choice was wait another day, sending the entire craft grind back.  (Helm, scope,  Ike el upgrade) or blow 50 primals to do it now. 

Your. It getting around the 7-10 day grind for a "useful" item with them but you can shorten it.  Like I said it's worth having it on ONE char but not all.

It's also the only way to get savage blood if you don't want the building that gives them.

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SurfD
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Reply #141 on: November 28, 2014, 12:53:40 PM

sort of annoyed that the Mine opens up at level 92, but the herb guarden does not open up untill something like 96.  Constantly having to shuffle herbs around from my main to feed a few of my crafting alts is a pain, meanwhile i am fucking SWIMMING in ore that i pretty well have absolutely no use for.... guess it is time to hit the AH.

Couple of other things i have learned:
- Once you ding 100, any of your alts get automatic access to purchase the tier 2 blueprints for the Secondary Profession structures (mine, fish hut, herb garden), so i essentially have 3 level 2 alt mines on the go atm for what amounts to about 3 hours of leveling per alt to fire off the level 2 garrison upgrade.
- Most "profession" followers can be safely removed from their profession building and sent on quests to level them up.  You only want to stick them back in the building at specific times
  -  Any profession follower with a "daily" quest will offer the quest as soon as you put him in the building.  Throw him in, grab the quest, pull him out again.
  -  Appearently Work Order Payouts are calculated when you OPEN the work order drop-box, so stick your follower in the building, collect your spoils, then pull them out and grind more missions
  -  Herb / Mine follower should be put in their buildings before the daily reset happens, because that is when their follower bonus is calculated and applied (such as the herb guy's ability to dictate planting of a specific herb).
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 01:01:49 PM by SurfD »

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Jeff Kelly
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Reply #142 on: November 30, 2014, 05:32:02 AM

One disadvantage of the whole streamlined levelling experience is that I'm now getting my ass handed to me more offen in Draenor since I'm so used to breezing through the content.

Also the Garrison is both great and a really devious idea. I can really see them selling boosts special plans and rare followers for money. they may never do this but they could easily. Also if they ever release a companion app for iOS and Android a lot of people's productivity will suffer.
angry.bob
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Reply #143 on: November 30, 2014, 10:30:02 AM

One disadvantage of the whole streamlined levelling experience is that I'm now getting my ass handed to me more offen in Draenor since I'm so used to breezing through the content.

Also the Garrison is both great and a really devious idea. I can really see them selling boosts special plans and rare followers for money. they may never do this but they could easily. Also if they ever release a companion app for iOS and Android a lot of people's productivity will suffer.

Not only that, imagine the money to had by selling special "racial only" or racial model replacements for the building they already have. Dwarven style garrison? No problem, $100 please. Or $20 per building. Whatever. It would be money hats and take very little extra work I believe.

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Setanta
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Reply #144 on: November 30, 2014, 09:01:20 PM

Guilty as charged - I'd spend 50 for a tauren themed garrison.

I also love the guardians - I was struggling to solo content on my undergeared 100 warrior. Brought the follower Viviane (level 100) along with me and she melts faces.

All my alts are getting her to 100 now.

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Rokal
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Reply #145 on: December 01, 2014, 12:04:26 AM

Once you get your Barracks to level 3 you can assign guards of a specific race, and they'll also post banners from that race all over your Garrison. It's as close as you'll get to race-specific Garrisons, at least for now.
luckton
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Reply #146 on: December 01, 2014, 01:52:14 AM

Or, if you're a Death Knight like me Exalted with the Knights of the Ebon Blade, you can have Ebon Blade DK guards  DRILLING AND MANLINESS

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

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Reply #147 on: December 01, 2014, 02:42:19 AM

I'm now Level 93 and have finished the first zone of the new expansion, Frostfire Ridge. Blizzard has managed to do a lot of things right. I generally like the cinematic in game stuff although the story so far is nothing to write home about.

I like the zones I've seen so far as well although they are really not that great to traverse on foot and on mount. Maybe I'm just not used to it after all the flying but I feel that the maps usually make you backtrack a lot or accidentally go the wrong way because the map is not great at visualizing where you might run into enemies or get stuck on a mountain range.

The optional assignments are nice. The rare spawns and boss mobs are not. I like that you can discover a lot of stuff by accident and also that you might get a few items and XP out of it. I don't like that you now have what is basically half a dozen Fel Reavers running around the map in quest zones. At least the aggro ranges are not that large. Also once the rush has died down late-comers will never be able to kill those unless they have outlevelled the zone. I also don't like that Blizzard has now basically managed to muddle any meaning the Elite and Rare monikers might have had at some point in the past. With all the quest bosses  that you end up charging with your Frostwolf army and rares that hit as hard as Elites you'll no longer have any clue what you can challenge and what not.

Blizzard should have kept flying for corpse runs. With all of the terrain, corpse runs have become seriously annoying again.

Garrisons are nice but will be the end of any sort of social aspect WoW might have had as everybody is just staying in his/her Garrison and no longer in the capital cities.

I really don't like the boss fights as part of a quest chain mechanic. I hope they scrap that bad idea in the future. I get what they try to accomplish with WoD, with proving grounds and now those kinds of quests they want to make sure that more people are prepared for what comes in dungeons and raids. The boss fights at least are pretty bad at conveying that though. If they integrate boss fights with AI party members they should damn well make sure that they work like actual boss fights and that your AI party perfoms as a human party would. They also need to communicate a whole lot better what abilities a boss has and how to counter them. Right now even in scripted fights like the end of the Frostfire quest chain against Fenris (please Blizzard come up with better names than that) you can't really manage aggro because Durotar and his brother don't taunt, don't hold aggro and often decide to attack only one of the mobs.

So while you could in theory learn how a boss fight works you usually just learn how to cheese it. Take the mentioned example. You can try to fight but since there's no real aggro management and taunting going on, you'll end up getting pounded on by either Fenris or his pet. So you either stand back and watch as the AI mauls the boss (they apparently can't die) which is not why I usually play those games, or you'll end up corpse running back into the fight a lot until the AI has mauled the boss.

Either mark them as group or make sure that the AI is at least decent enough to give you a chance to fail because you fucked up and not because warchief Durotan can't even taunt a mob out of a paper bag.
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #148 on: December 01, 2014, 02:47:18 AM

The fights are also not really great for all roles since many of them don't even feature a healer so if you're not a DD with a way to shed aggro once in a while you'll end up standing on the sideline watching the AI fight stuff. A warrior doesn't really have anything he could do since being pounded on with no healer will make sure he'll end up dead and once a healer pulls aggro away from warchief and his brother (which will happen a lot due to the bad aggro management) he's toast.
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Reply #149 on: December 01, 2014, 02:56:18 AM

Um.

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Jeff Kelly
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Reply #150 on: December 01, 2014, 03:15:31 AM

Yes?
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #151 on: December 01, 2014, 03:39:06 AM

Every final mission of one of the "stories" of Frostfire Ridge has ended in a boss fight involving one or several Elite mobs. Every one of them puts you and a few of the story NPCs (Durotan, Thrall, Medhiv etc.) up against them. Neither of those missions works very well as a boss fight because of the inane AI.

At least I suppose that Blizzard sees them as actual boss encounters because they gave the bosses specials that are announced via raid announce and you'll actually have to work with the mechanics of the fight to some extent to not die easily. I also suppose that they are designed to be played solo, because they are not marked as "group". In prior expansions those fights would have been labelled as "group" with "suggested players (X)" as recommendation. If Blizzard designed it as actual boss fights they don't work very well though, because you don't have a party that covers all of the main roles (tank, healer, DD) or if it does the AI doesn't play to those strengths and the wonky AI in general means you'll end up pulling aggro a lot if you really want to involve yourself in the fight.

In the final fight against Fenris I spent most of the time either running away from the boss because none of the NPCs had his aggro or running back into the fight from the spirit healer because he had pounded me into the ground. The best suggestion most players have for those fights is to "just stand back and let the NPCs do it" or to cheese it in another way. If that was Blizzards intention though then why make them interactive boss fights in the first place?

Right now it doesn't make any sense to really play these bits as actual boss encounters because just standing there and letting the NPCs do it works equally well and even if you die the encounter doesn't reset so you can just corpse run until it's over. Which makes them very pointless endeavors and just that much more annoying than just watching an in-game cut scene that basically has the same effect.

So why do it?

This might not be the end of the world, really, because those encounters are so easy to cheese and depending on your gear and class they might not be a problem at all but I seriously don't get why they made those in the first place. They fail as a way to get people to learn how to play and so are basically a waste of time compared to a cut scene if all I do either way is stand and watch as other people do it.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 03:45:28 AM by Jeff Kelly »
Ironwood
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Reply #152 on: December 01, 2014, 03:44:10 AM

Ok, fair enough.

But I've not yet seen a boss fight or Rare that was even remotely hard to kill or survive through.  Only that Worm in the Lava was any issue and that was because we didn't realize we had to feed it Ogres.

By the stage you're talking about, you should have your Garrison Reinforcements, which will Mince anything you fight.  All tanks have self heals these days that should pull you through.  The gear level by the time you're where you're at should be well in advance for what you're trying to do.

My 'Um' was that I didn't know any way to address what you were saying beyond 'Lern2play' or 'You're not playing the game I'm seeing' and neither of those are EVER helpful nor polite.  I get what you're saying about the boss fights conceptually (and you're entirely right, they're fucking retarded and, for the most part, lolmetzen Green Jesus shite), but I don't see the difficulty, in all honesty.

So, in conclusion, you're right and I agree with you, but once again this is you railing against shit we already know and have come to some form of acceptance with.

The way to win here is not to play.  Or watch Moffat.


My post is entirely pointless.  This sums up so much lately.   Heartbreak

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Jeff Kelly
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Reply #153 on: December 01, 2014, 03:59:37 AM

It's not the l2p part that really aggravates me. It's that Blizzard clearly has invested a lot of time into those bits and now suffers from "we designed it so you have to experience it" syndrome so prevalent in AAA game development today.

It's also the fact that they clearly want you to learn basic team play and game mechanics and didn't even bother to design the fights in a way to facilitate that. If they seriously wanted you to l2p then give us the holy trinity as back-up so that everybody can play those fights regardless of class and role and make the NPCs actually play to those roles.

Otherwise people will just abandon those quests or cheese them and the garrison upgrades let you quite easily cheese any boss encounter if you so choose anyway.

I'm not really railing against them. I'm a bit angry about those bits though because they were designed so that people should learn game mechanics and not only utterly, utterly fail at that but even worse teach players how to subvert them. I don't think that Blizzard really intended for players to become reliant on bodyguards and Garrison reinforcements to cheese content they spent a whole lot of time designing and testing.

The way they are currently implemented though makes them utterly pointless bullshit that fails on every level (and I'm talking about an MMO so the irony of that sentence is not lost on me).
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 04:23:17 AM by Jeff Kelly »
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #154 on: December 01, 2014, 04:05:22 AM

I have the feeling that the Garrison and bodyguard mechanics will end up hurting the game more than help it in the long run.
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Reply #155 on: December 01, 2014, 04:05:50 AM

I find it strange that you have to wait till 100 to get the proving grounds quests too.

If you're going to put in a boost to 90 for scrubs, then give them these quests RIGHT NOW so that they don't wipe the group with retarded behavior.

Wife complains that tanks are just The Worst in pugs now due to all the active avoidance that they have and have to use.  They don't.


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Ironwood
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Reply #156 on: December 01, 2014, 04:06:26 AM

I have the feeling that the Garrison and bodyguard mechanics will end up hurting the game more than help it in the long run.

Yeah, it's serious bullshit.  You basically end up as a tagalong to The Vivianne Icy Adventures.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #157 on: December 01, 2014, 04:18:54 AM

I haven't played the game for years now. The last time I've played any sort of endgame content was Icecrown Citadel and the 5-man heroics during Wrath of the Lich King. Seems to me that the game hasn't gotten any harder over the years. If you know the mechanics of a boss fight they are not that hard. So giving people any less incentive to learn seems a bit disconcerting to me given the amount of players that didn't even know the basics for 5-mans in WotLK (or ever really).
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Reply #158 on: December 01, 2014, 04:21:40 AM

Skyreach will fucking kill anyone who's not paying attention.

It is a holocaust centre for noobs.

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Jeff Kelly
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Reply #159 on: December 01, 2014, 04:28:54 AM

It's still basically "don't pull aggro, unless you're the tank", "don't stand in shit", "don't end up in front of the boss's huge weapon if you're not the tank" (or you're not into that stuff),  "don't be a dumbass" and "if you're the tank, actually tank and use your mitigation abilities" though for the most part, isn't it?

Basically "don't be an idiot" and at least know what your class and role is supposed to do.

Not really rocket science, I'd assume.

« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 04:30:28 AM by Jeff Kelly »
Ironwood
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Reply #160 on: December 01, 2014, 04:49:34 AM

You're seriously underestimating how the last 3-4 expansions have eroded the core concept of 'don't be a dumbass'.

The LFR I enjoyed a lot was basically a team of 5 competent guys carrying 35 other retards.


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Jeff Kelly
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Reply #161 on: December 01, 2014, 04:56:44 AM

I've read up on the first encounter of Skyreach. The amount of movement and positioning rquired will make this a bane for noobs everywhere.
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Reply #162 on: December 01, 2014, 05:14:36 AM

The last fight will basically be tanks watching the other four being hurled to their death.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #163 on: December 01, 2014, 05:42:55 AM

I have the feeling that the Garrison and bodyguard mechanics will end up hurting the game more than help it in the long run.

Yeah, it's serious bullshit.  You basically end up as a tagalong to The Vivianne Icy Adventures.


SWTOR does it and it's revolutionary, wow does it and... fuck those guys. 

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Reply #164 on: December 01, 2014, 05:54:13 AM

It's not a valid comparison, I don't think.

The basic idea is the same, but the exectution, not so much.  SWOTOR did it better.

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Merusk
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Reply #165 on: December 01, 2014, 07:48:36 AM

Nah, Horde just has an OP follower. Works fine on the Alliance side, where your first follower is a DK who you'd rather not drop D&D every place.

Unless you're referring to the fact that SWTORs are integrated into a story.  That wouldn't fly in WoW, two totally different games.  People are bitching about being "forced" into things like watching the story cinematics for 3 seconds. I can only imagine the flecks of nerdrage spittle flung about if you had the same sort of story interaction as SWTOR.

I don't see the big deal. its certainly not worth 3 posts and 4 pages of text.


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Jeff Kelly
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Reply #166 on: December 01, 2014, 07:53:07 AM

I don't get your comment because neither of us made that comparison to SWOTOR but regardless in WoW it is an issue for the post-levelling game. Since I don't know SWOTOR I can't really make a vild comparison as to the differences though. The main problem for WoW is that Blizzard identified the issues yet implemented solutions that not only won't work but may actually be counter-productive.

The end-game is purely raids and dungeons (or arena PVP) and to experience that you need a certain gear level and also an idea how to play your class and what you have to do according to your role in a fight. The basic game has gotten worse and worse over the years at teaching you that.

It's also gotten harder and harder to actually do certain kinds of grouping quests due to the way levelling works and how groups can be formed. Also due to the spread between hardcore and more casual players time-wise (when they reach content) . I'm just 4 weeks behind on content and I already have a hard time finding groups. Most players from the intial batch right after release have since moved on to other zones or have since reached level 100 and many of the more casual players tend to skip group-type quests entirely because there is really no point in looking for a group for hours when you have outlevelled the zone three days from now anyway.

So a part of your player-base has already done certain group-related quests because they were there first and another type of players tends to sip those quests entirely anyway. Blizzard has spent much time and effort designing those type of quests though. They also know that team-skills are relevant as soon as you reach max level.

So they chose to have the game teach you those skills and mechanics without the need to group with real people. Most quests that would have been 5-man group quests in previous expansions now only require you and a few quest-related NPCs and if those are not available you can requisition them from your Garrison of you so choose. The fights are (a bit) more mechanically challenging and require you to actually do more than just stand there and whack at the boss but in theory you should have NPCs helping you.

So in theory the garrison and NPC system should make you less dependent of other players while still being able to experience all the content Blizzard spent so much time developing and the mechanics of the fights would still be teaching you the basics you'd need once you tunr 100.

The problem is that most of the questing boss fights do a bad job at actually teaching you anything because they don't work like actual boss fights do. The NPCs don't act like party members (ideally) would and the boss doesn't react to their or your actions in a way a dungeon boss would. The fights won't even have similar fail states. So all the current system accomplishes is that it makes content easier accessible to more casual players or players that don't have many friends or guild members playing. Which by itself would be a virtue and I'm actually not against that. The bad mechanics coupled with the pretty overpowered bodyguards though trivialize the content in a way that the game pretty much plays itself with you watching. Which wouldn't be a problem by itself either.

It doesn't manage to teach players what it set out to teach though at all. Quite the contrary. It only teaches them that those fights will become a whole lot easier with their level 100 bodyguard or not worth the bother without and pretty much nothing else. By the time they reach max level and actually want to do dungeons they are really unprepared for what they need to do in an actual group during an actual dungeon run. Even though the system was designed to teach players exactly that.

So what I'm trying to say in entirely too many words is that the system only manages to make levelling content easier and more accessible which is fine. It manages that without helping be better at the game even though the whole system mechanics qwere designed to do just that. By doing both those things the system is not only not helping but actually accomplishing the opposite of what it was trying to.

The GW and GW2 systems were a lot better in that regard.
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Reply #167 on: December 01, 2014, 08:06:41 AM

So basically you're saying the you play world of warcraft are are shocked to find that it is in fact, world of warcraft.

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Jeff Kelly
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Reply #168 on: December 01, 2014, 08:10:36 AM

Yes and No  why so serious?
I'm more shocked that Blizzard still doesn't seem to know that it's World of Warcraft.
Jeff Kelly
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Reply #169 on: December 01, 2014, 08:58:44 AM

Only that Worm in the Lava was any issue and that was because we didn't realize we had to feed it Ogres.

That one was great though. I hope they do more of those.
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Reply #170 on: December 01, 2014, 09:28:12 AM

If designers could write in quests where NPCs acted like players in a raid to teach you raids, then I would suggest that you don't need fucking players anymore. Just let me solo raid with my team of bots, and scale appropriately.

This would likely only work in 5 mans, but still. I don't think they can write AI to do that correctly. If they could it would revolutionize their game from a dungeon crawling standpoint, since everyone could bot healers and tanks.

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Reply #171 on: December 01, 2014, 09:37:14 AM

I can't speak for the Horde Scenario/Quest stuff in WoD, but the Alliance ones have a paladin NPC that basically tanks everything for you and also throws down OP healing effects on the ground that make it borderline impossible to die. They only "figured it out" in the sense that they realized programming appropriate AI was too hard for them and that they just needed to make AI completely OP to do that style of content.
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Reply #172 on: December 01, 2014, 10:37:02 AM

One disadvantage of the whole streamlined levelling experience is that I'm now getting my ass handed to me more offen in Draenor since I'm so used to breezing through the content.

Also the Garrison is both great and a really devious idea. I can really see them selling boosts special plans and rare followers for money. they may never do this but they could easily. Also if they ever release a companion app for iOS and Android a lot of people's productivity will suffer.

Not only that, imagine the money to had by selling special "racial only" or racial model replacements for the building they already have. Dwarven style garrison? No problem, $100 please. Or $20 per building. Whatever. It would be money hats and take very little extra work I believe.

Yup I could see that as a huge selling feature giving a race specific garrison building. I am sure on the horde side you would see a lot of people throwing huge chunks of money for blood elf garrisons. Really other than art time it should not be that bad to do as you have set footprints to work with.
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Reply #173 on: December 01, 2014, 11:14:35 AM

Jeff: I don't think the story questline is meant to "teach" anything. The NPCs (and temp abilities, when available) are so OP that they will basically win the battle for you, no matter your role* unless you really mess up (e.g. my warrior using mocking banner while about ~10-15 NPCs were fighting a ton of enemies, resulting in every single mob going for me and a predictable faceplant). The proving grounds at 100 are actually a pretty decent way to gauge the player's skill and help them improve (though it could use more advice and less snarky "OH DID YOU FORGET TO HEAL YOURSELF?!" comments from the npc party members). If you can get Gold in PG, it means you know how to:
- dps: use the appropriate skill combinations / rotation to do steady single-target, cleave, and aoe dps while standing out of fire; make good use of cooldowns and target switching when necessary as well as bursting down "kill this in 10 seconds or the raid wipes" kind of adds; get into optimal positions and use mobility skills for maximum uptime / damage; interrupts and (maybe) CC/stuns
- healer: do high sustained healing under pressure; keep high throughput without going OOM and letting anyone die (triage, mana efficiency); spot heal against high raid damage; stay out of fire; prevent damage to the tank via stuns/interrupts; dispel as needed
- tank: pick up adds (single/multi) in time, position enemies to stay out of fire while keeping THEM in the fire, deal with aggro drops and knockbacks, interrupts, properly use survivability cooldowns against different kinds of enemies (zerg of small mobs, dual-wield melee mobs, slow-and-hard-hitting melee mobs, casters), kite, LOS, CC

In order to queue for heroics, you need Silver, which is much more lenient (especially for dps), but still requires at least a basic working knowledge of your class.

* well, except if you're a healer with no real damage abilities, but soloing like that sounds like the most boring thing imaginable, even with an OP bodyguard
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 12:35:12 PM by Zetor »

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Reply #174 on: December 01, 2014, 04:16:50 PM

I don't get your comment because neither of us made that comparison to SWOTOR

LO..Wut?

At least read the post preceding mine as convention is, "Don't quote the asshole above you, that's redundant and spammy."

It's not a valid comparison, I don't think.

The basic idea is the same, but the exectution, not so much.  SWOTOR did it better.

See.

Quote
but regardless in WoW it is an issue for the post-levelling game. Since I don't know SWOTOR I can't really make a vild comparison as to the differences though. The main problem for WoW is that Blizzard identified the issues yet implemented solutions that not only won't work but may actually be counter-productive.

The end-game is purely raids and dungeons (or arena PVP) and to experience that you need a certain gear level and also an idea how to play your class and what you have to do according to your role in a fight. The basic game has gotten worse and worse over the years at teaching you that.

Yeah, the basic game has NEVER taught you how to play your class in raids. Ever.  It taught dungeons the same amount.

To go over skills the game doesn't teach, but are required for the endgame: aggro management, stand out of the fire, don't cain-pull every goddamn thing there is, decurse that buff, watch your mana across an extended fight, spec this way for maxdps/ heals/ tank survival, find your partner to do your thing, kite that mob, turn off your pet's goddamn taunt, CC this mob, kill that mob first, listen to directions, DIE WHERE YOU STAND, ASSHOLE, DON'T BRING YOUR AGGRO BACK TO US.

And that's just a brief list of fails I saw in a MC run a week ago. None of which have ever been taught in the base game, because they're meta.

No, the follower won't hurt the endgame any more than granting a level 100 for $90 would. They're skills you learn by studying or repeated failures and getting your stupidity yelled at.  Or you just avoid that segment of the game altogether.

WoW is WoW.  Trying to change that lost them subs, so they made it MORE WoW. L2P has always been a part of that game.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
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