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Title: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on October 09, 2014, 04:18:45 PM
Enough bitching. Patch 6.0 hits Tuesday, people. Get ready to feel like you're not wearing epics again  :drill:


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Mithas on October 09, 2014, 04:29:29 PM
Is the pre-launch event any fun? I haven't looked into it at all.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on October 09, 2014, 04:46:17 PM
There's a quest series of about a dozen quests that rewards you with your own Iron Starlette pet, and the special lvl 90 UBRS will be available. SoO is also getting the new raid changes treatment, so people can start freaking out about flex LFR sooner rather than later  :why_so_serious:

Along with the class, graphics, and systems changes, Tuesday should be fun, should the servers actually make it online and last through the night.

Fake edit: ilvl 550 blues dropping from the lvl 90 UBRS, also featuring some of the new stats and even an on-proc weapon  :ye_gods:


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Paelos on October 09, 2014, 07:20:34 PM
What's current raid ilvl?


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on October 09, 2014, 08:10:45 PM
What's current raid ilvl?

528 to 566, LFR to Thunderforged Heroic.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Paelos on October 09, 2014, 08:32:30 PM
Oh so this is pretty much the expected slap in the face to raiders.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on October 09, 2014, 09:27:26 PM
Same slap that comes around every xpac. The saving grace this time around is the legendary cloak, heirloom weapons from Garrosh, and quad-upgradable epics, which these 550 blues can't do.

Also, bitching thread is o'er yonder.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: SurfD on October 10, 2014, 02:30:39 AM
Does the updated Molten Core raid with Corgi pet reward come as part of this step?   I havent played for about 4 months, and I think my main pair of toons was pretty much full normal gear.  Wonder if I am going to get the cold shoulder if I try to find a group for that when it hits (what? not fully decked out in completely upgraded heroic gear.  Noob.  We dont feel like carrying you...)


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on October 10, 2014, 02:53:11 AM
The Molten Core thing is part of their birthday thing next month. It'll be LFR'able, but you gotta be 100 to get to in.

Everyone will get the corgi pet just for logging in during the birthday event.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: March on October 13, 2014, 04:22:05 PM
I Don't play WoW for any sort of End-game (the raiding Hokey Pokey is uninteresting to me, and the Economy game is not to my liking)... but I occasionally will re-sub to check out major systems overhauls.  So, I'm oddly excited for patch day tomorrow to see some of the changes.  Strange how they've successfully managed to wring the odd ducat out of me on-and-off since I decided the game was not for me in 2007 with Burning Crusade (though in full disclosure, I did enjoy the end of WOTLK - but that was the last time I did anything with group content... since then, just a little solo leveling to admire the snappy mechanics and see some sights).  Like a business trip where I rent a car I wouldn't buy, just to see what its like.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on October 14, 2014, 07:16:37 AM
This is gonna sound old-school and corny as hell, but the advice they're giving about defragging before and after the patch is somewhat worth looking into if you've got your install on a non-SSD. I defragged last night, just had my client do the file conversion and patch, and upon a new defrag analysis, I'm back to 18% fragmentation.

Moving a lot of datas today. And I'm sure someone will begin a rant about how this patch bricked their hard drive.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Hutch on October 14, 2014, 09:54:45 AM
Battle.net applied another WoW patch this morning, only a couple hundred mb or so.
Once it was done, I started up WoW to see what would happen.

The cinematic intro happened (the one where Grom confronts Gul'dan and Mannoroth).

And then the login screen threw an error message at me. Which wasn't shocking; I would have been more surprised if it had let me log in at that hour (~5am PDT).

We'll see how well things are going at the end of the day  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on October 14, 2014, 12:16:38 PM
If page after page of notes is confusing to some, here's a tl;dr video from Bliz:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsjBrL5qw4U


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: March on October 14, 2014, 03:44:25 PM
Whelp... that was underwhelming.

The crafting from the new vault tab is nice... but it still needs to be account wide.  I know they just re-did the only the character models... but the rest of the art is still pixellated... except for the tiny nose on my Dwarf that is slightly more expressive (even though I never see it, since I stare at his back and never see his face).  Somehow thought the talent/ability rework was going to be more significant... two icons dropped from secondary bars.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: kaid on October 14, 2014, 04:41:44 PM
The talent rework depends a lot on the class. Some had a lot more abilities removed than others. Like for my boomchicken they removed a bunch of spells and condensed moonfire/sunfire to be the same button that just changes depending on the cycle. I did find it funny that they also removed the last two expansions max level spell think boonkin are back to spells they had with lich king now.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Paelos on October 14, 2014, 04:49:08 PM
Since this is the positive thread, I'll point out the things I like.

Statsquish is a good idea, those numbers are getting asburd. Toybox is a great idea and I wish they'd had it two expacs ago. I have no idea where some of those toys are now, or if it will remember what I did with them. Dumping skills is also good. I hate skill bloat more than anything in MMOs. It's just bars and bars of nonsense.



Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Rasix on October 14, 2014, 05:36:13 PM
So, I guess they upgraded existing accounts to MOP level.  That's kind of nice.  Still pretty sure I'm never going to play again, but that definitely makes it easier.

edit: NM, read somewhere that they did this a while ago for Cata subscribers.  And now I'm reading conflicting reports.   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Wasted on October 14, 2014, 07:00:11 PM
They gave me and a friend of mine MoP free a few months ago if we resubbed, my wife who also had up to cataclysm wasn't given the offer though.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: kaid on October 15, 2014, 10:15:59 AM
Toy box and harvested resource bank would have made the expansion worth purchasing by themselves for those who like wow. Really really nice things so I can use my bank for more interesting stuff.

I did not get a lot of chance to play last night but I did get to putz around a bit with my arms warrior. Very different play style a whole lot of whirl winding in the single target rotation.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Mithas on October 15, 2014, 10:25:37 AM
My Tauren feels short and moves strangely. I suppose it is just because I have almost 10 years of seeing the same thing and now it is different.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Zetor on October 15, 2014, 11:31:55 AM
My gnome looks like an axe murderer. Which is a completely wrong representation (since she mainly uses 2h maces and swords  :why_so_serious:)


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: kaid on October 15, 2014, 12:48:36 PM
HAHA ya my gnomes face translated into a face displaying murderous rage not quite what I remember. That said barber shop was open and it took five seconds to find a face I liked so I have no real complaints my elf and draenei both looked good enough.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Morfiend on October 15, 2014, 02:06:23 PM
I really dont like what they did to the night elf posture. They are more hunched and odd looking now. More thugish. Not that I play an elf, just saying.

Also, it looks really weird to see these nice new high poly heads sticking out of some of the older armor models.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ashamanchill on October 16, 2014, 02:22:52 AM
My Tauren feels short and moves strangely. I suppose it is just because I have almost 10 years of seeing the same thing and now it is different.

Yup. Mine looks ridiculously stumpy.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on October 28, 2014, 02:52:53 PM
Patch going up today to address issues found over the last few weeks. Most notably graphic and balance issues (apparently the guy put in charge of stat squishing enchants and consumable buffs did a terrible job, as Cata stuff was actually working better than MoP).

Also, for those, like me, who did the Blasted Lands questline before they put in the 520 trinket rewards, you can now buy those trinkets from a vendor in the Blasted Lands. They may not be BiS for longtime raiding folk, but for newly boosted toons, you can't beat 'em.

Finally, it's the last week of Hallow's End. I don't care so much for the pets and stuff, but I would really like that 540 helm for my DK.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Merusk on October 28, 2014, 04:43:46 PM
Wife wants the Lich King costume, but goddamn is it hard to get 500 treats.  I don't know why I'm doing this instead of her, but at least her character is a mage.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on October 28, 2014, 07:38:45 PM
Wife wants the Lich King costume, but goddamn is it hard to get 500 treats.  I don't know why I'm doing this instead of her, but at least her character is a mage.

They say that as long as you max your treat income from day 1 to the end and don't consume or spend them on anything, 500 is doable. Somewhere around 620-640 is the theoretical. The blue response is that since the pets and toys are now account wide, they don't have an issue with you using one character to focus on the Lich King costume while another goes for everything else.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Merusk on October 28, 2014, 08:09:11 PM
Hm.. you Have to do treats everyday? Whelp, this is a lost cause then, because fuck dailies.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Azazel on November 05, 2014, 02:41:19 PM
Ah, WoW. Don't ever change...  :uhrr:


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: kaid on November 05, 2014, 05:10:25 PM
Wife wants the Lich King costume, but goddamn is it hard to get 500 treats.  I don't know why I'm doing this instead of her, but at least her character is a mage.

They say that as long as you max your treat income from day 1 to the end and don't consume or spend them on anything, 500 is doable. Somewhere around 620-640 is the theoretical. The blue response is that since the pets and toys are now account wide, they don't have an issue with you using one character to focus on the Lich King costume while another goes for everything else.

I would have worked harder to get the LK thing if it did not have a limited amount of charges. Anything with limited charges means I will NEVER click it because I may want to use it more at some unspecifiec time in the future.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on November 05, 2014, 11:02:20 PM
For being able to transmog your entire character model into one of the most iconic characters in WoW's history, I think the time needed to be invested along with having 100 charges is a fair exchange. You can always get another one next year.

Tried out the premade group thing a couple times over the weekend. Brought back memories of years gone by where it boils down to herding cats and booting noobs/PvP idiots, but it's nice to have some kind of group forming tool back in the game. Even got my Garry heirloom with it, so I'm more than ready to tackle WoD now.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Malakili on November 05, 2014, 11:41:39 PM
Wife wants the Lich King costume, but goddamn is it hard to get 500 treats.  I don't know why I'm doing this instead of her, but at least her character is a mage.

They say that as long as you max your treat income from day 1 to the end and don't consume or spend them on anything, 500 is doable. Somewhere around 620-640 is the theoretical. The blue response is that since the pets and toys are now account wide, they don't have an issue with you using one character to focus on the Lich King costume while another goes for everything else.

I would have worked harder to get the LK thing if it did not have a limited amount of charges. Anything with limited charges means I will NEVER click it because I may want to use it more at some unspecifiec time in the future.

This attitude towards consumables has haunted me for years.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Rendakor on November 05, 2014, 11:43:38 PM
At least I'm not the only one. 90% of consumables I ever found in WoW are sitting in the bank with (n-1) charges because I clicked them once and "Oooooh cool!" then didn't want to waste them.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Setanta on November 06, 2014, 03:52:00 AM
Dropped cash on Warlords, used the bump to 90 on my L40 monk... log in to find I'm outside the dark portal with only 3 spells in my spellbook WTF?

You earn your spells by completing the transition quests except that you are severely gimped and are lucky to be able to solo some mobs because you don't have your passives or bread and butter spells. A friend was in a worse situation - he bumped his 80 warrior only to find that he had charge and one other spell. The rest was autoattack because "we think you should re-learn your spells that you've used for years".

Just when you think Blizzard developed common sense in WoW, they pull shit like this.

Anyway, a quick goole and I found out that going to a class trainer and resetting your specialisation gives you all your spells and flying back. Did I mention that you can't fly until you've done all the quests?


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Paelos on November 06, 2014, 08:01:33 AM
Careful now, this is the non-bitching thread.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on November 06, 2014, 10:35:00 AM
Dropped cash on Warlords, used the bump to 90 on my L40 monk... log in to find I'm outside the dark portal with only 3 spells in my spellbook WTF?

You earn your spells by completing the transition quests except that you are severely gimped and are lucky to be able to solo some mobs because you don't have your passives or bread and butter spells. A friend was in a worse situation - he bumped his 80 warrior only to find that he had charge and one other spell. The rest was autoattack because "we think you should re-learn your spells that you've used for years".

Just when you think Blizzard developed common sense in WoW, they pull shit like this.

Anyway, a quick goole and I found out that going to a class trainer and resetting your specialisation gives you all your spells and flying back. Did I mention that you can't fly until you've done all the quests?

I have to post.  I have to follow this up :

That's Fucking Retarded.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Hutch on November 06, 2014, 10:39:09 AM
I think they tried to strike a balance between helping an actual newb figure out the game, and the experience that a veteran will have when they use their 90 boost on a level 40 or 80 toon.

Which is not to say that they're not utterly retarded, but we've already hashed out Blizzard's current competency level over in the bitch thread :)


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on November 06, 2014, 10:50:54 AM
That's fine, but not an opt in ?

Nah.  Just Nah.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Rokal on November 06, 2014, 12:27:55 PM
The quests also take like 15 minutes to finish total for the entire zone/chain. Your spells basically double every 3-4 minutes as you finish hubs. I boosted a paladin and did those quests as Ret and thought it was a pretty good set up. Yes, the first set of quests leaves you with an awkwardly small set of abilities, but it also takes no time at all to finish (hell, 2 of the 3 quests don't even require you to use abilities, you just click objects).



Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: kaid on November 06, 2014, 02:22:59 PM
One thing for those getting ready to boost a character. If you choose to boost a monk DO NOT BOOST A HEALER SPEC MONK. I cannot say that in big enough or flashy enough letters. The problem is they try to teach you monk healing so they only give you the crane stance so every power you have but one is heal or utility. So unless you want to spend 4 hours feebly auto attacking shit to death or have a buddy who has mercy on you and groups with you like mine did DO NOT BOOST A HEALER SPEC MONK.


The stupid thing is once you finish the quests and unlock the second healer stance which is their soloing build you do plenty of damage and its fine for soloing they just did some moronic choices on how they unlock their spells.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on November 12, 2014, 09:36:59 AM
For those interested, here's everything you need to know about Garrisons, in the Internet's favorite form of displaying information - the stupidly large infographic.



Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Hayduke on November 12, 2014, 09:59:02 AM
I've read you can just queue for a dungeon and leave to get all of your abilities.  Haven't confirmed it myself though.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Merusk on November 12, 2014, 12:10:44 PM
So I'm not seeing the advantage to some of those garrison buildings if you already have the character to do things with. i.e. "Disenchant all your greens"  Yeah, I've got an enchant mule for that.  Am I missing something or is it just a QOL perk for folks who aren't running the right mods?

It seems to me that Gem botique and Salvage yard are more useful than what Mr. Robot suggests. Storehouse only for those who didn't buy the Argent Dawn or Guild Heralds, because # of work orders just means not having to queue things for days it doesn't mean more activities at a time (according to the end info)


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on November 12, 2014, 12:26:38 PM
The main thing with Prof. buildings is that you can do things with one character that you couldn't do before (at least not without rolling an alt (a la what you did)). The only perks to having a building that matches your profession:

- Faster work order completion
- Able to access end-game recipes
- Able to craft end-game crafted item upgrade things

The last one takes a bit of explaining. In exchange for having meaningful crafting, characters will now be limited to wearing three crafted items at all times. The combination is up to you (ring, chest, cloak, or gloves, chest, neck, whatever), but three is the max. All prof garrison buildings will be able to make the end-game craftable item(s) that go with that building, but the catch is that those end-game items can be upgradable two times to much, MUCH higher quality and stats. In order to upgrade, you need the appropriate item upgrade thing. If you played during Timeless Isle, you'll recall that the generic gear drops turned into ilvl 497 gear, but if you used the rare item upgrade things on them before turning them into gear, they'd be ilvl 530 or something. The same logic is being applied here. In order to make the item upgrade things, you have to have the matching prof. with the matching building.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on November 12, 2014, 12:40:16 PM
I'll probably go the raiding path they suggested, with a couple tweaks...

- I think the Inn fits my taste and playstyle better, and I'll probably get that along with the Trading Post for mediums.
- Jewel, Blacksmith, Salvage for smalls. I'm Jewel/Mining on my main DK. I may trade the Blacksmith out for the Storage Room if they make it slightly more appealing...depends on just how much of a nuisance it'll be getting to the banks/AH in Draenor.
- Barracks and Bunker for larges.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Rendakor on November 12, 2014, 01:15:25 PM
Those garrisons actually look pretty interesting, but not enough to resub.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Azazel on November 12, 2014, 02:54:29 PM
The last one takes a bit of explaining. In exchange for having meaningful crafting, characters will now be limited to wearing three crafted items at all times. The combination is up to you (ring, chest, cloak, or gloves, chest, neck, whatever), but three is the max.

What the fuck? Does this include levelling gear?


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on November 12, 2014, 02:55:31 PM
The last one takes a bit of explaining. In exchange for having meaningful crafting, characters will now be limited to wearing three crafted items at all times. The combination is up to you (ring, chest, cloak, or gloves, chest, neck, whatever), but three is the max.

What the fuck? Does this include levelling gear?

Draenor-crafted only. 1-90 gear is unaffected.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Merusk on November 12, 2014, 03:34:44 PM
The last one takes a bit of explaining. In exchange for having meaningful crafting, characters will now be limited to wearing three crafted items at all times. The combination is up to you (ring, chest, cloak, or gloves, chest, neck, whatever), but three is the max.

What the fuck? Does this include levelling gear?

Shows how long you've been gone.  Heirlooms replaced profession gear back in cataclysm.  There's a full set that you never have to farm mats for or replace and gives like 50% extra experience now.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on November 13, 2014, 09:17:54 AM
Early thoughts:

- Bliz continues to learn from previous launches. Khadgar is the kick-off NPC that boots you to Draenor after accepting his quest. In order to ensure that people wouldn't troll on him too hard, they actually used collision detection to buffer a nice little three yard radius around him. Additionally, there's a no mount buffer zone of 15 yards around him as well. But the internet finds a way! Apparently they didn't thin that everyone would just plant their battle standards all over the place and troll that way.

- They also cloned Khadgar, so you can hit him up in the Blasted Lands, Stormwind/Ogrimmar, or the MoP main cities.

- Cinematic-style cut scenes out the wazoo as you do the initial Tanaan Jungle quests. Not the pre-rendered ones that were spoliered a couple months ago, but in-game stuffs that really try to draw you in.

- Got my Garrison up without much fuss, and sent my first minion out on her first mission.

And I'll get some more in tonight after work. So far, so good.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Lemming on November 13, 2014, 10:03:47 PM
Early thoughts:

- Bliz continues to learn from previous launches. Khadgar is the kick-off NPC that boots you to Draenor after accepting his quest. In order to ensure that people wouldn't troll on him too hard, they actually used collision detection to buffer a nice little three yard radius around him. Additionally, there's a no mount buffer zone of 15 yards around him as well. But the internet finds a way! Apparently they didn't thin that everyone would just plant their battle standards all over the place and troll that way.

- They also cloned Khadgar, so you can hit him up in the Blasted Lands, Stormwind/Ogrimmar, or the MoP main cities.

- Cinematic-style cut scenes out the wazoo as you do the initial Tanaan Jungle quests. Not the pre-rendered ones that were spoliered a couple months ago, but in-game stuffs that really try to draw you in.

- Got my Garrison up without much fuss, and sent my first minion out on her first mission.

And I'll get some more in tonight after work. So far, so good.
I played all but the last two xpacs at release, and this one is defintely my favorite so far.  The story, horde side, has me engaged.  The cinematics, both in-game and pre-rendered are fun.  Garrisons let me add my own personal touch to my very own city, complete with minions to find me shinies.  All the launch day crap aside, I'm having more fun with this game than I have since the original beta.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: SurfD on November 14, 2014, 03:51:29 AM
Early thoughts:

- Bliz continues to learn from previous launches. Khadgar is the kick-off NPC that boots you to Draenor after accepting his quest. In order to ensure that people wouldn't troll on him too hard, they actually used collision detection to buffer a nice little three yard radius around him. Additionally, there's a no mount buffer zone of 15 yards around him as well. But the internet finds a way! Apparently they didn't thin that everyone would just plant their battle standards all over the place and troll that way.

- They also cloned Khadgar, so you can hit him up in the Blasted Lands, Stormwind/Ogrimmar, or the MoP main cities.

- Cinematic-style cut scenes out the wazoo as you do the initial Tanaan Jungle quests. Not the pre-rendered ones that were spoliered a couple months ago, but in-game stuffs that really try to draw you in.

- Got my Garrison up without much fuss, and sent my first minion out on her first mission.

And I'll get some more in tonight after work. So far, so good.
You must be having an absolute godly string of luck then (either that, or your server is one of the few legit nearly dead ones out there).

My experience in WoD so far has been: Khadgar: Good.  Taran Jungle: Good.  Frostfire Ridge: absolute clusterfuck.   Not sure what they did for the Welcome to Draenor bit in Taran (is it instanced or something?), but as soon as I dropped out to Frostfire, it was literally a sea of people camping ontop of questgivers to attempt to turn in / recieve new quests.   No "No mount" or "Cant stand here" buffer zones on these guys, and what seems like dozens upon dozens of people standing on each one.   Carefully /target npc, find your keybind for "interact with", and hit it.  Wait 2 minutes for the lag to present you your quest.  Turn in.  Wait 2 more minutes for the quest to register as accepted.  Run up the path 300 yards.  Repeat.   I called it a night when I realised it would take me somewhere in the neibourhood of an hour (at minimum) to collect the 6 flag clicks needed to gather lumber in the garrison opening quests.

Got in tonight after work (2 am Toronto Time), logged in.  3300 person (roughly 3 hours) queue.  Yeah, nope.  Going to bed.

At least I can say that while the lag was attrocious, there were no chain crashes / kick to login screen once i was in like often happened in previous launch days.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on November 14, 2014, 04:43:50 AM
I tried getting in last night as well, but it was a wash. No problem this morning though.

Also, judging on the hotfix notes, it looks like Bliz is addressing the initial quest issues.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: kaid on November 14, 2014, 10:34:37 AM
It was fine during the day yesterday but as it got to prime time the combo of hordes of people logging in to a couple zones combined with a DDOS going off had the servers just shitting themselves so badly I gave up around 8pm my time.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: jakonovski on November 14, 2014, 11:34:43 AM
I folded and bought this despite all the technical issues and so far I must admit it's a blast. The content feels an order of magnitude more interesting than the complete irrelevance that was Pandaria. Might be because my best memories are from the TBC era, and the last time I put any effort into playing was early Cata.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Rokal on November 14, 2014, 12:20:06 PM
Yesterday was a long string of 2-3 hour queues, disconnects, and laggy/unplayable quest zones. Things only improved when I got a group invite from a friend on a lower pop realm and quested there.

On the plus side, the content much better than I expected. The time travel story is still stupid and they are still rehashing old villains/characters but since many of them are new to WoW it still feels refreshing. I'm enjoying the story, the characters (new heroes specifically), and the pre-disaster look at Outlands.

I love how tons of elements of Timeless Isle made it into normal questing: frequent encounters with rare mobs that drop fun/fluff items, quests to find, treasure, etc. The trip from 90-100 seems pretty fast this time as well.

Garrisons are way more enjoyable than I expected them to be as well. I assumed they would be a bland version of housing with lots of daily quests, but in reality Garrisons are more like a profession hub with a way more interesting version of the SWTOR companion mission system attached to them.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Merusk on November 14, 2014, 01:14:56 PM
I love how tons of elements of Timeless Isle made it into normal questing: frequent encounters with rare mobs that drop fun/fluff items, quests to find, treasure, etc. The trip from 90-100 seems pretty fast this time as well.

That wasn't just Timeless Isle, that feature was in place the whole Pandaria expansion.  Every zone from Jade Forest to Kunai had rare mobs that dropped equipment or fluff shit. Did you not get your own golden banana off the Hozen in the Golden Valley?


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Mithas on November 14, 2014, 05:05:50 PM
Liking pretty much everything so far.

Pros:
  • Garrisons are interesting
  • Quests move quickly
  • Leveling seems to move quickly too
  • The vignette mobs and other little things add some distractions to change things up
  • The setting so far is great. The story, zones, and music are good

Cons:
  • Worst launch ever
  • Wish there was a little more variation in quests
  • It seems like MoP had more detail. There were just more little things that felt like the world was more lived in

All in all I think it is pretty good. We'll see how it goes once I get to 100 and try to find things to do.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: craan on November 14, 2014, 06:09:02 PM
I've been keeping an eye on the transition stuff through Icy Veins and the changes to Boomkin are tempting me to resub.

For those of you playing, is your class/spec as fun as before?


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Mithas on November 14, 2014, 06:58:02 PM
I'm a feral DPS druid generally. It's really hard to say so far. I think it is fine, maybe a little more efficient. I have not done a dungeon or PVP yet so we'll see.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on November 14, 2014, 06:59:58 PM
DK here. They didn't do anything to Unholy except take away my castable Haste buff, and they made Blood easier. I have no issues.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on November 14, 2014, 07:38:42 PM
The most awesome new feature that didn't get publicized very well: All loot from quests and outdoor rare mobs has a random chance of automatically upgrading to rare (+10 ilvls) or epic (+20 ilvls) quality. For example, I just did a quest in Gorgrond that awarded a set of ilvl 522 green shoulderpads. When I was actually rewarded, the game rolled the dice and upgraded the pads by 20 ilvls and make them epic quality.

This applies to followers as well, in that they can come into your posse already at rare or epic quality.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Lemming on November 14, 2014, 09:04:22 PM
The most awesome new feature that didn't get publicized very well: All loot from quests and outdoor rare mobs has a random chance of automatically upgrading to rare (+10 ilvls) or epic (+20 ilvls) quality. For example, I just did a quest in Gorgrond that awarded a set of ilvl 522 green shoulderpads. When I was actually rewarded, the game rolled the dice and upgraded the pads by 20 ilvls and make them epic quality.

This applies to followers as well, in that they can come into your posse already at rare or epic quality.
It is an awesome feature, and it's not a very rare occurrence either.  If I had to guess, I would say 10-20% of my gear and followers were upgarded to rares or epics.  It's a nice little unexpected boost to the quest item you are already expecting to get.

Another awesome feature is the bonus objectives.  If you check your zone map, you will see sword icons indicating a bonus objective.  These are just like your typical quest, except there is no quest giver; you just go to the area, and you are automatically given the objectives.  Once you complete it, you get your rewards, which is the awesome part.  While you typically don't get an item for this, these things can give out 50-70k(normal quests are about 13-20k xp) experience a pop, and I think 20-70 gold, or something like that.  Definitely worth doing them all.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on November 15, 2014, 08:45:15 AM
Another day, another maintenance window. Hopefully it'll be the last until Tuesday. The plan is to take the phasing tech from the Tanaan Jungle intro experience (which allowed for a pretty smooth start into Draenor by just phasing multiple instances of the same place and reduce congestion) and apply it to all of Draenor. If it works, they can attach more hardware to the current servers and handle a larger load than breaking down and having to open brand new servers.

Dinged 95 this morning before the shutdown. Starting to actually replace my MoP raiding gear with dungeon and quest rewards. Still having a good time with it, regardless of server queues.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: kaid on November 17, 2014, 02:42:30 PM
I've been keeping an eye on the transition stuff through Icy Veins and the changes to Boomkin are tempting me to resub.

For those of you playing, is your class/spec as fun as before?

My main so far is a boomkin and its totally fine for leveling. Boomkin have some really good bonus perks they unlock every 2 levels. One gives me a percentage chance to proc an instant cast offensive spell when being hit by single target attacks which makes it amazing when doing pve level up stuff. I then unlocked one that makes starsurge instant cast. Not like it used to be instant only when it procs but all the time instant cast. That perk alone makes the class rock soloing pve stuff and makes it WAY less tricky to optimize your eclipse cycles as you can pop it right before you go crazy and not have to play the guessing game of when to start your cast of it.

I just unlocked one that gives me an extra 100% armor in boomkin form so in moonchicken mode I have 200% more armor than listed which again not a raiding perk but VERY VERY nice leveling up and questing.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Zetor on November 17, 2014, 04:08:14 PM
To balance out the bitching somewhat (:why_so_serious:), the expansion is... pretty fun? I think this is the best levelling experience I've ever seen, even better than WOTLK. The zone-scale stories are fairly good (and most of them have nothing to do with the pants-on-head time travel metaplot, thank cthulhu). The dungeons are rough but doable, and they don't quite get into the Cata dickpunch league of "one mouthbreather can and will wipe your group". The garrison minigame is surprisingly fun for now. The endgame 'daily activity' thing is a lot more like GW2's "go in this general area and do stuff as you like until the activity meter is filled", which is a great improvement over any of the endgame daily activities I remember from any phase of WOW, and almost makes them doable without wanting to stab whoever thought up the "daily quest" concept. Almost.

OTOH, crafting is now complete shit, and whoever 'redesigned' ele shaman for WOD is bad and should feel bad.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on November 18, 2014, 06:10:55 AM
Dinged 100 this morning, and managed to score enough resources without the use of a Lumber Yard to upgrade to a level three Garrison. Shortly after, a minion came back from a mission and provided the resources needed to build up my Dwarven Bunker and Trading Post options.

Decided to try my DK's new Necrotic Plague talent in the Proving Grounds. OMG...so this is what it's like to have your top end talent tier be about DPS instead of crowd controlbullshit  :awesome_for_real:. Knocked out Bronze and Silver without issue, and made to all the way to the last stage of Gold, but that last minion is a pain to burst when they only give you 15 seconds of no barrier.

Still having too much fun with this xpac.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Hutch on November 19, 2014, 01:45:00 PM
Hah. Gazlowe's Realty. (http://www.gazlowerealty.com/)  :grin:


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Setanta on November 19, 2014, 02:31:54 PM
I'm pathetic. I've garrisoned 5 of my characters but am playing the follower game even though I'm actually enjoying the main game.

Followers = game you play when you don't have time to game... EvE style.

2 toons to 82 because work has got in the way, I'm still unsure what class I like best this time round. Warrior and Enhance Shaman are fun so far but Affliction 'lock just has solo written all over it.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Hutch on November 19, 2014, 05:19:35 PM
What (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/world-of-warcraft-surpasses-10-million-subscribers-as-warlords-of-draenortmlaunch-begins-2014-11-19)

10 million subscribers!
We'll see how many are still around in a month, but that's a huge number of new subs.

Quote
World of Warcraft’s Subscriber Definition

World of Warcraft subscribers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or have an active prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the game and are within their free month of access. Internet game room players who have accessed the game over the last thirty days are also counted as subscribers. The above definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, and expired prepaid cards. Subscribers in licensees’ territories are defined along the same rules.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Fabricated on November 19, 2014, 05:47:16 PM
Give it a few months.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Mithas on November 19, 2014, 05:58:19 PM
That would explain the extremely long queues. I'm sure they didn't anticipate this.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on November 19, 2014, 06:35:13 PM
Give it a few months.

It'll drop for sure but this is a really good expac compared to...almost every other one.  I'd expect a big retention.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Hawkbit on November 19, 2014, 09:09:04 PM
It really hammers home how much I did not like the Panda xpac.  At the time of Cata, it seemed necessary to bring the base game up to speed with their direction, even if it ended up being a mistake.  However, they followed it up with the most uninteresting content in Pandaria. 

Which is a real shame, because the Panda zones are really well crafted and there was a lot of solid content there.  But it wasn't fun. 


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Azuredream on November 19, 2014, 11:47:09 PM
Stop, you're making me want to buy this.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on November 20, 2014, 04:17:00 AM
Don't.

It's ok.  But you'll be finished in a day or so and then you're left grinding out fucking garrisons because they haven't learned the lesson of The Garden.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Paelos on November 20, 2014, 08:04:22 AM
It'll drop for sure but this is a really good expac compared to...almost every other one.  I'd expect a big retention.

Can you go into some detail? What features do you think puts this in front?

Also, it's outselling Pandaria 3.3M to 2.7M in the first week. That's pretty stout for a 27% growth. It also explains the sub growth.

I'm just confused. Is it marketing? Is it the fact that people absolutely despised pandas and Asian themed crap and were waiting it out? Is it the housing? On paper, this expansion looks similar if not stripped down from prior years.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on November 20, 2014, 08:20:57 AM
It'll drop for sure but this is a really good expac compared to...almost every other one.  I'd expect a big retention.

Can you go into some detail? What features do you think puts this in front?

Also, it's outselling Pandaria 3.3M to 2.7M in the first week. That's pretty stout for a 27% growth. It also explains the sub growth.

I'm just confused. Is it marketing? Is it the fact that people absolutely despised pandas and Asian themed crap and were waiting it out? Is it the housing? On paper, this expansion looks similar if not stripped down from prior years.

To me it's just things like the setting actually being good, zone storylines being exciting, the way your quest reward can get upgraded to blue/purple and even the garrison is a fun little mini game(not housing at all but still fun)



Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Zetor on November 20, 2014, 08:23:32 AM
Well, just to quote the positive things from my prev post:
To balance out the bitching somewhat (:why_so_serious:), the expansion is... pretty fun? I think this is the best levelling experience I've ever seen, even better than WOTLK. The zone-scale stories are fairly good (and most of them have nothing to do with the pants-on-head time travel metaplot, thank cthulhu). The dungeons are rough but doable, and they don't quite get into the Cata dickpunch league of "one mouthbreather can and will wipe your group". The garrison minigame is surprisingly fun for now. The endgame 'daily activity' thing is a lot more like GW2's "go in this general area and do stuff as you like until the activity meter is filled", which is a great improvement over any of the endgame daily activities I remember from any phase of WOW, and almost makes them doable without wanting to stab whoever thought up the "daily quest" concept. Almost.

Really, the solo questing / levelling experience is probably the best I've ever seen in any diku... which is surprising, considering that the previous two expansions SUCKED in this respect. Cata was all about a superlinear "story" on rails, and MoP was just bland and uninteresting.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Paelos on November 20, 2014, 11:20:53 AM
So in the end it really is that people like the setting better, and the leveling isn't as rails.

Also it seems difficulty didn't jack up, and they added housing sort of.

The filling up a meter thing is much better to me than dailies, that's a nice QOL shift.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: kaid on November 20, 2014, 11:21:40 AM
Don't.

It's ok.  But you'll be finished in a day or so and then you're left grinding out fucking garrisons because they haven't learned the lesson of The Garden.



Actually one ironically good way to build your garrison up is simply play super casual. The garrison resource chest stores up to 500 resources or 3 days worth. So if you only log in to play a couple times a week you wind up getting big chunks of garrison stuff and less time to fritter them away on random stuff. Its a lot less annoying to me than the farm. The farm I did for about a week and went NOPE NOPE NOPE and never went back. The garrison at least so far has been much more fun for me and a lot less "work".


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on November 20, 2014, 11:26:00 AM
Yeah, except once you get hooked on the follower mini-game, that just won't happen.  At all.

Also, what I meant by learning the lesson is that you have to do this shit on all your alts again and again and again and I suspect it stops being fun after....the first one.

Guildy has 6 Garrisons all at level 2.  I'm just forehead smackingly nonplussed.

Also, tradeskills got raped to the point you're better of not having them.  That's some meta level shit right there.  I literally can't see the point of having any gathering skills at all now, just alts with different buildings, all feeding each other.  I think it's crazy shoes.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Zetor on November 20, 2014, 01:16:59 PM
Yeah, crafting is complete shit now. I have no idea what Blizz is trying to accomplish there...


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Setanta on November 20, 2014, 02:21:51 PM
I have 5 garrisons at level 2 - took a week of playing super casually because of work. It's not hard to hit at all I think it takes maybe 4 hours a character if you know the path to follow.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on November 20, 2014, 02:35:36 PM
Not really my point.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Paelos on November 20, 2014, 02:37:52 PM
We understand you in the other thread.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: kaid on November 21, 2014, 05:17:40 PM
Yeah, except once you get hooked on the follower mini-game, that just won't happen.  At all.

Also, what I meant by learning the lesson is that you have to do this shit on all your alts again and again and again and I suspect it stops being fun after....the first one.

Guildy has 6 Garrisons all at level 2.  I'm just forehead smackingly nonplussed.

Also, tradeskills got raped to the point you're better of not having them.  That's some meta level shit right there.  I literally can't see the point of having any gathering skills at all now, just alts with different buildings, all feeding each other.  I think it's crazy shoes.



Herbs have been selling pretty good but I expect that to crash a bit as more people get high enough to unlock the garden but at least there are sinks to devour it from inscriptionists and alchemists. Ore has no sink you simply can't make anything fast enough to eat through the vast mounds of ore even a tier 2 mine can generate. I have engineering and blacksmithing and no harvesting skill and one mine is more than sufficient to keep work orders on both fully topped off every day. You are so limited by the mass quantities of the time gated stuff needed to actually make items that ore is never going to be a limiting factor.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Kail on November 21, 2014, 05:56:18 PM
Off topic a bit: are they doing anything for the 10th anniversary, anyone know?  I haven't seen anything on this.  I'm torn between not giving a fuck about the storyline this expansion and thinking some of the content looks pretty neat.  Current plan is to give it a shot once the price comes down, but if there's something going on for the birthday, would it be worth it to pay for a month just to log in and check my mail or whatever (maybe see if Pandaria was any good, since I haven't touched that one either)?


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Rendakor on November 21, 2014, 06:09:24 PM
The 10th anniversary is a lvl 100 MC raid and a 40v40 TM/SS BG.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: SurfD on November 22, 2014, 08:06:50 AM
Off topic a bit: are they doing anything for the 10th anniversary, anyone know?  I haven't seen anything on this.  I'm torn between not giving a fuck about the storyline this expansion and thinking some of the content looks pretty neat.  Current plan is to give it a shot once the price comes down, but if there's something going on for the birthday, would it be worth it to pay for a month just to log in and check my mail or whatever (maybe see if Pandaria was any good, since I haven't touched that one either)?

Simply logging in on the anniversary gets you a Molten Corgie pet.
Then there is the level 100 only 40 man Molten Core raid.  Guaranteed drop of a High Ilevel Hat and a Core Hound Mount, with a lower chance drop of a Battle Pet and a Weapon Enchant X-Mog effect.  Expect it to be fairly long and punishing, since word has it it is a fairly proper scale up of the ENTIRE molten core raid for 40 man raidfinder difficulty (eat that nostalgia nuts).


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Merusk on November 22, 2014, 09:40:54 AM
Simply logging in on the anniversary gets you a Molten Corgie pet.
Then there is the level 100 only 40 man Molten Core raid.  Guaranteed drop of a High Ilevel Hat and a Core Hound Mount, with a lower chance drop of a Battle Pet and a Weapon Enchant X-Mog effect.  Expect it to be fairly long and punishing, since word has it it is a fairly proper scale up of the ENTIRE molten core raid for 40 man raidfinder difficulty (eat that nostalgia nuts).

Ooooho.  That's hilarious and explains all the bitching I've seen about multiple wipe groups that can't get past trash.  The entrance to MC was always a wipe-fest until you figured out the mob types. MC Trash had some of the biggest BS effects I've ever seen and was difficult to get 40 raiders to do it right when starting.  I can't imagine 40 LFR folks who have always breezed through content.

Annihilator: Hug It. Otherwise it dashes and does big damage.
Surger: Spread out, it does an AOE that will do big damage.

The bosses aren't any more difficult than raid bosses, but the trash is just so tiring. Plus there's areas that it respawns quick so you have to kill a group, then run, then kill and run.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Paelos on November 22, 2014, 10:04:45 AM
Relighting core pup trash always produced some of our more lol-worthy wipes.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Merusk on November 22, 2014, 10:16:39 AM
Ooh I forgot about those.  Yeah, any mechanic that is "all things must die at the same time" has a huge problem in LFR until there's enough overpowered DPS that can just beat it all down. 


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Zetor on November 22, 2014, 10:46:37 AM
I did LFR MC yesterday. In one word:  :why_so_serious:. In two words:  :awesome_for_real: :ye_gods:. I did finish it and get my hat / mount (and cosmetic fire enchant thing), but it was a bit rough at times. Still, as the raid went on, it did get a bit more cohesive... also, people eventually stopped facepulling / DPSing wrong targets / standing in fire.

All the mechanics are in place -- I think the only changes are a smaller aggro radius for golemagg and geddon's ignite mana taking away only 200 per tick. Some of those debuff-heavy fights are pure nightmare fuel for healers.. if none of the DPS are decursing, expect healers to run oom ~30 sec into Lucifron, for example. The Geddon kill was amazing, with 1 tank, 2 healers and 1 single dps still alive by the end (inferno is as lethal as ever) and everyone super low on health/mana. In general, bosses fall over pretty quickly compared to my vanilla MC memories... but wipes are still possible to shit like Shazzrah's aoe if nobody is decursing/dispelling.

The most ~fun~ comes from the trash, however. Core hound packs, those fireguards that AOE stun the raid, surgers knocking people into the lava, etc etc. Trash still respawns, too, with the same rules as vanilla MC. Good times.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: kaid on November 24, 2014, 12:44:25 PM
Simply logging in on the anniversary gets you a Molten Corgie pet.
Then there is the level 100 only 40 man Molten Core raid.  Guaranteed drop of a High Ilevel Hat and a Core Hound Mount, with a lower chance drop of a Battle Pet and a Weapon Enchant X-Mog effect.  Expect it to be fairly long and punishing, since word has it it is a fairly proper scale up of the ENTIRE molten core raid for 40 man raidfinder difficulty (eat that nostalgia nuts).

Ooooho.  That's hilarious and explains all the bitching I've seen about multiple wipe groups that can't get past trash.  The entrance to MC was always a wipe-fest until you figured out the mob types. MC Trash had some of the biggest BS effects I've ever seen and was difficult to get 40 raiders to do it right when starting.  I can't imagine 40 LFR folks who have always breezed through content.

Annihilator: Hug It. Otherwise it dashes and does big damage.
Surger: Spread out, it does an AOE that will do big damage.

The bosses aren't any more difficult than raid bosses, but the trash is just so tiring. Plus there's areas that it respawns quick so you have to kill a group, then run, then kill and run.

The stupid curse that gets applied to the entire raid gets old fast. With the changes of having an 8 second cool down after removing a curse it takes freaking forever to cleanse a raid. The rewards are worth it but its a good demonstration of why they don't make raids like this any more the trash in MC is was and always has been stupidly thick.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on November 25, 2014, 01:34:30 PM
They managed to rope me back in after 5 years of not playing (left half-way during WotLK) and I guess they managed to get many other people as well..


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on November 25, 2014, 01:58:22 PM
Welll after enough begging and nagging, Blizzard upgrading my account to MoP and giving me a free month they've somehow managed to rope me back into this game. (like I already said in my previous post, I've stopped playing half-way through WotLK). So I restarted my sub when Patch 6.0 hit.

First thing I did was to check on my my Level 70 Undead Mage and the Level 80 Draenor Priest and realized that I had forgotten everything about how to play that game over the last five years  ;D. Mage was still in Shattrath and the Priest was sitting in Dalaran and for the first half-hour or so I couldn't even remember where the fuck those cities are and what their name was. I was also checking for the portal spells my mage had until I realized I must have lost all of them during a respec while my account was inactive.

Blizzard reimbursed my Priest for all of the pointless marks and sigils he collected during WotLK so he started off with nearly 1000 gold which I thought was nice until I hit the AH and saw actual prices. At that point I thought to myself "screw it", decided to level a new toon for the chance to experience all of the changes they did with cata and MoP and went full Kung Fu Panda.

I'm now at Level 83, averaging about one level per hour of gameplay without heirlooms or account bound items and quite like it so far. Biggest surprise was just how streamlined the game's levelling experience has become. It's also nice just how many convenience features got added over the years and the re-imagining of the old classic zones was also in my opinion very well executed.



Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: kaid on November 25, 2014, 05:17:16 PM
The prices on the AH look scary I was pretty broke character wise when I started back up again but you make a ton of cash just doing the quests. I have spent like 10k on my garrison so far and still have more money than I started the expansion with and that was before last night. Right now if you get up in level and managed to pick up a good BOE drop from a mob you can sell them on the AH for frighteningly high numbers.

I started the expansion with about 1k gold in the bank. I sold a BOE purple shield last night for 120k gold it sold in under an hour. I am not one to play the AH much but really I would not worry to much about AH prices because it works for you as much as against you.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: angry.bob on November 25, 2014, 05:23:23 PM
So I can count on my previous moneymaking activity of selling ore/ingots/gems to be totally fucked then?


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Mithas on November 25, 2014, 05:24:53 PM
Ore is totally fucked. Everyone gets so much from their garrison that the prices are extremely low. That was my normal money maker on my main. I've gotten to the point that I think I might just drop mining and find something else. It seems to me that BoEs don't seem to sell. Unless maybe I am getting the wrong ones.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: kaid on November 25, 2014, 05:33:11 PM
Yes max level ore is fucked. It is almost effectively infinite because even with blacksmithing AND engineering work orders I simply cannot use it fast enough due to most things being super time gated.

But there is tons of cash to be made on stuff if you watch the AH a bit and figure out what they are bing. Also mining is not useless you can still make a crapload of cash going lower tier stuff especially pandaria for trillium as people still are cranking away at their sky golems.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: angry.bob on November 25, 2014, 09:58:01 PM
Okay, that's not so bad then. I always made the most on stuff like Thorium, Obsidium, etc. Stuff that's too high for people who haven't kept up mining to get and old enough that almost no one else bothers to mine it any more. Every expansion I always made a killing with copper, tin, iron at the start too. Though if the crafting trades suck now people probably aren't starting them up. Also, they suck for taking away the stat bonus for mining.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on November 26, 2014, 04:01:33 AM
It's worse than that.  If I was starting an Alt, I'd leave tradeskills until I hit THE PAST and start there.  You can do everything at level 1.

I think your market is humped mate.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on November 26, 2014, 05:55:21 AM
I should probably have checked what garrissons actually do before I decided to level herbalism and alchemy on my new toon.

A few more impressions from me:

I've used the boost WoD gave you to boost my undead mage to 90. It's the first character I played and it was my main from the EU open beta until WotLK. It's also the character with the most time played (86 days, yes I checked) and the one I did most of my raiding with when I was still interested in such things. Went through all of the 40 man raids on that char.

I like the collections function. Access to all of the mounts I own, all of my pets and toys without messing up my bank slots is nice. Made me rediiscover a lot of mounts and pets I collected over the years that I had no idea I own. Even a few rare ones like the PVP bear mount and the bronze Drake from Culling of Stratholme Heroic. Pity though that the Ahn Quiraij mounts still only work in the zone.

I like that they've integrated a lot of functions in the main UI that you had to use add-ons for. You can now actually play the game without resorting to add-ins (cue people telling me that no you actually still need add-ons for stuff ;)). Keeping current on all of the add-ons I used in WotLK raiding (classic was even worse. One word "decursive") was annoying and it's good to have a lot of that functionality moved to the default UI. It's still wasting too much of my screen real estate though.

They should give you the option to unlock alll of the flight masters for a zone or add-on at some point. They do for boosted characters anyway.

Questing has gotten much tighter. You no longer run out of quest options and need to grind (Barrens classic was the prime example but even in BC you had a lot of dead time because you ran out of quests during playing). Some of that is surely because they rebalanced the zones after a new expansion has come out but running a new horde toon was always a bitch between 10 - 40 even in Wrath and it's nice that you now can max-level your toon just by questing. I laos like that they added a lot more variety to the quests. It#s still a lot of "kill ten monsters" or "collect twenty monkey farts" but even those got a bit more varied and they've added a lot of different quests as well.

I also like that they re-did most of the group and elite quests in old zones so you can now do them solo. It was always annoying when you levelled an alt and realized that you can't do half of the quests because you won't find a group.

Stat squish is nice because even late during WotLK the numbers had gotten ridiculous, I can't even imagine what it must have been like in MoP. I don't like that they didn't streamline the skills as well. My monk has now exhausted all of the additional action bar slots with skills I'll never ever use, probably not even during dungeons or raids. It's basically always been like that but since they always add additional stuff when a new add-on and level cap is released it has gotten ridiculous.

I don't like the way talents work. I like that they removed a lot of the gruff and trimmed the waste from the original talents but they added to many new spells and skills. Talents should be mostly passive effects in my opinion except for maybe one or two really interesting skills that only certain builds have access to. make the core abilities interesting instead of giving me dozens of skills. Use passive effects to boost the core abilities instead.

They also should have scrapped glyphs. I never liked the concept or the execution and it's basically the same pointless mechanic as when they first introduced it. Glyphs basically only serve as a justifcation for inscription anyway.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on November 26, 2014, 06:25:20 AM
I like the way newer zones work. Icecrown was always the prime example of how zoning and quest chains should work and they perfected it in Cataclysm and MoP. I also like that zones are bigger and that Blizzard no longer treats zones like a Russian prison cramming hostile mobs into every nook and cranny until amnesty international shows up and wites a letter of complaint.

BC zones were really bad in that respect. Blizzard just crammed too much hostile stuff into every square metre of real estate. You now actually have certain parts of zones without mobs and quests that take that into account. Especially in a zone like Vash'j that has such an interesting concept it's a nice change that zones now actually resemble sort of a fantasy themed countryside and are not just mob spawns.

I don't like the Cata zones very much apart from the technicalities though. For one because they are rather buggy. I've only encountered three or four bugged out quests so far and all have been in Cataclysm zones. The zoning and starting quest chain for Vash'j bugged out at two points for me, which is ridiculous for a 5 year old series of quests and since a quest event didn't trigger at both instances I basically got stuck an event that I couldn't finish.

All of the zones I've visited so far are also too similar to existing content to be really interesting. Vash'j at least has an interesting concept but is still Aszhara underwater. Deepholm is just a bland cave full of recycled mobs and elementals and huge downtimes between quests because you have to cover so much ground on your mount. Hyial doesn't resemble the Warcraft 3 map in any way and is just more fire and drakes. I also don't like the way they hand-hold you during questing. You basically don't have any options or any chance to discover something on your own. New quest hubs only become accessible once you finished all major quests at the old hub. Even flight masters only unlock once the game decides that you are allowed to go there. I guess some of that comes from zoning and how it works and they probably also want you to not miss a thing but to me it's too hand-holdy.

Don't get me started on the casual borderline racism and stereotypical 'pseudo-eastern' vibe of the Pandaria Zones. Having all Dwarves talk like Scotsmen and all TRolls like some sort of Jamaican Rastafarian is bad enough but Pandaria actually managed to top that with that weird amalgamation of eastern romanticism, wuxia, dragons and pandas.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: kaid on November 26, 2014, 10:12:18 AM
It's worse than that.  If I was starting an Alt, I'd leave tradeskills until I hit THE PAST and start there.  You can do everything at level 1.

I think your market is humped mate.


There are a couple odd ball things you need max level skill. The leather worker mount requires level 700 leatherworking skill but almost everything else including the max level purple armor gear requires a skill of 1 to do it so if you have a crafter who is slacking don't worry about it.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on November 26, 2014, 10:32:17 AM
Sorry, I think I've come across badly ;  What I mean is that you can learn to 700 in Draneor using only the garrison.  If I was leveling, I wouldn't even bother gathering shit, I'd just level in my Garrison at 90.

Which is pretty much what the wife is doing with some of her Archeology and Fishing for the alts that couldn't be bothered.  It's almost like WoD is a subgame that doesn't need the rest. I had some characters that got stuck leveling cooking due to the fucking squid requirement and they didn't fish.  They'd level in seconds in WoD.

Mental.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Merusk on November 26, 2014, 10:36:18 AM
It's worse than that.  If I was starting an Alt, I'd leave tradeskills until I hit THE PAST and start there.  You can do everything at level 1.

I think your market is humped mate.


It's completely humped to the point I'm considering dumping Mining entirely now that I've got the "dranic stone" achieve. There's just no need anymore and I'd be better served having a 2nd profession so I can maximize my crafting since it's useful now.

I had mining on 3 characters previously for Engineering, Mining and Blacksmithing and used every bit of ore from each just to raise one profession at a time. Now, however, I have only one character who's sending ore to all 3. The Time-gated materials have such low resource requirements that when combined with the mine it doesn't make sense to have gathering.  

Let's do the math: I have 4 stacks of 200 ore for both types right now. Once a day CDs use 10 of each and the "secrets" for patterns use 5 Blackrock.  Work orders use 2 of each, and a max of 6 work orders a day can be completed.   So in total that's 22 True Iron and 27 Black Iron a day you can ever use. No more.  My L2 mine pulls more than that in a single circuit of the mine.

I realized this morning that there's only way any of this makes sense.  F2P resource gathering models.  I had my epiphany while doing Clash of Clans and this is working the same way. Everything's time gated now and the free stuff doesn't matter.  Add on "buy gems to complete work orders" and you've got the exact same model.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: kaid on November 26, 2014, 10:36:36 AM
I think the sort of island to itself was the original intent of WOD. In early alpha apparently you could not return to azeroth until you were level 100 or close to it. You basically blew up the portal that would let you go back so the self contained nature of the expansion was intentional. Really this is the first expansion since probably lich king my mains have not bothered to leave the expansion content at all. Everything I need is out there and 90% of it is in my garrison so I have no real need/desire to go back to stormwind/iron forge for the forseeable future. When you have void storage/banks/auction houses trade skill nodes/crafting stations my garrison is pretty much one stop shopping for me.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on November 26, 2014, 10:46:53 AM
You should dump mining Merusk.  The Mine is easy to get to level 2 and it pretty much supplies any alt you'd ever want at that level.

Also, the Barn (also known as The Slaughterhouse ) will get you all the leather or Fur you need for a very tiny time outlay.  The herb garden gives you massive amounts of herbs and with the right follower you can specify which one.

I can't think of any gathering kill you'd really need anymore ?  Am I wrong ?



Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on November 26, 2014, 11:02:32 AM
You're not wrong, but I don't think it will stay this way for long. Surely the plight of all of this Dranic Stone I've mined needs to be used for something other than overloading my work order dude.

I wish the Trade Post would let me specify what resource to use for work orders to turn into G. Resources. Then I could easily dump all of this Stone into that.

Or better yet, if I have both Mining and a minion assigned to the Mine, DRASTICALLY reduce the processing time of Mine work orders. Like an hour, tops.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Merusk on November 26, 2014, 11:19:23 AM
It doesn't seem that way at all, no.  I mean, maybe there will be some big shake-up down the road but right now they're all pointless.  Even Jewelcrafting doesn't churn through Ore to get gems, because gems are a time-gated thing.

Just talking this through and actually doing the math for mining has convinced me to drop Skinning, Mining, etc on all my characters. It's pointless, at least until Blizzard realizes it, panics and 'fixes' things.  

Or better yet, if I have both Mining and a minion assigned to the Mine, DRASTICALLY reduce the processing time of Mine work orders. Like an hour, tops.

I've about convinced myself they're trying F2P modeling, so there's no way that'll happen. Minions to reduce time doesn't sell virtual speed potions.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on November 26, 2014, 11:26:59 AM
But they're not selling virtual speed potions, at least not yet. The F2P model only works if there's some kind of exchange of goods/services in order to get something for yourself either quicker or acquire something that they just don't give away for free.

10 million people strong kinda negates the need to break down to the F2P model for business. But if they're going to implement the mechanics, they need to implement ALL of the mechanics. Let me sacrifice a follower spot to get better benefits for the building they're assigned to, and give me an incentive to leave them there all the time instead of just popping them in, collecting the work orders, and then popping them back out.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Merusk on November 26, 2014, 11:50:01 AM
Yeah I didn't mean in WoW though as I don't see that ever going the F2P route. However 10m people is a GREAT test bed for seeing how things work and where the bottlenecks/ bitch points are at. Run it at 4h for a good long while making tweaks on the edges and you've got more data than any of your competitors and you got paid for it.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: kaid on November 26, 2014, 11:58:34 AM
You should dump mining Merusk.  The Mine is easy to get to level 2 and it pretty much supplies any alt you'd ever want at that level.

Also, the Barn (also known as The Slaughterhouse ) will get you all the leather or Fur you need for a very tiny time outlay.  The herb garden gives you massive amounts of herbs and with the right follower you can specify which one.

I can't think of any gathering kill you'd really need anymore ?  Am I wrong ?



As a leather worker the barn is totally sufficient to keep feeding your tannery for burnished leather. Although having skinning means you can devote your barn at level 2+ to making feasts or savage bloods. It is so nice  being able to crank out high quality feats without having to dick around with cooking I hate the cooking skill and really hated pandarian cooking so nice to not have to bother with it.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on November 26, 2014, 12:00:39 PM
I always liked cooking, but then they twined it with Fishing and, frankly, fuck fishing.  Archaeology was worse tho.

But you can now do that from your mine.  Jesus Wept, I don't know what they're doing over there.  I really don't.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on November 26, 2014, 12:29:22 PM
Fishing would be OK if the levelling curve wasn't so fucked. Any other profession regularly offers me new recipes that give me 1 skillpoint per use. Fishing doesn't. I won't even level faster if I fish in higher level zones. The levelling curve for fishing is fixed and you can't boost it and so you'll easily be outlevelled by cooking.

It also has no use except to provide resources for cooking which you won't need if you don't raid. At least mining or herbalism give you resoruces ou can use for crafting.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on November 26, 2014, 12:41:49 PM
Think of the garrison as an alternative levelling system for professions. The main impetus of WoD is to be a tabula rasa for WoW, to bring back as many old players as possible and to make the barrier of entry as low as possible for new players. If you see WoD as being a reboot with Level 100 being the new Level 60 then it makes total sense.

Most new players won't stick to WoW if they have to start at level 1 and do a shitload of old content that is completely bereft of players. Until I hit 80 I usually was the only person in the zones I quested. I actually got a few of the rare mob achievements that way because nobodybothered to hunt them. I even did a few of the PVP quests to ge the boosts and was flagged for hours without anyone bothering me.

Even if they level no one will level professions while playing. With the way the levelling curve is now, levellling up professions actually slows you down. Most old players won't spend hours revisiting old zones to get their skills to max level and if I want to level up a different skill I start off at 1 again. Then there's the economy. Prices for crafting resources are ridiculous. On my server players regularly sell BC and WotLK resources for 5000 gold per stack or more so levellling via AH is prohibitively expensive.

The garrison gives players an alternative way to level professions and fucks with the economy, severely reducing the barrier of entry for raiding and dungeons for new and returning players.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on November 26, 2014, 03:07:19 PM
I tell ya what, F2P mechanics aside, I love running Garrison missions. Already got three of the 125 things I need for Chapter 2 of the legendary quest through missions, and my minions are slowly but surely becoming a force of power.

Being able to remote in to home from work and queue up more missions makes it even better  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Drubear on November 26, 2014, 04:37:27 PM
Sea Scorpion segments - fished from coastal waters - are used to make health potions, so fishing is immediately helpful to people starting out. Bandages are made from Fur and segments as well.  Antivenom from Whiptail and Anti-disearse from Fire Ammonite suggest that First Aid is more tied in with Fishing than Cooking.. There is a whole series of meat dishes...

Still, however much I love Fishing (and let's be clear, much of it has to do with the Fishing Buddy addon) I was hoping for more from Garrisons for Fishing. But there's at least a building for it - poor Cooking and Archie got left out...


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on November 26, 2014, 05:20:29 PM
You don't HAVE to fish for them tho.

And, again, if you do, it's all at level 1 dude. 


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Tannhauser on November 26, 2014, 06:53:30 PM
Sorry for the minor derail, but I read in the strat guide about bodyguards.  Are they like SWTOR companions that quest and fight with you?  Do they talk? 


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Merusk on November 26, 2014, 07:06:47 PM
Yes, but no voice. The Death knight you get at the faction city is the only guaranteed Bodyguard I know of.  I have one other from a quest in the Akkroa area.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: SurfD on November 27, 2014, 12:44:45 AM
Sorry for the minor derail, but I read in the strat guide about bodyguards.  Are they like SWTOR companions that quest and fight with you?  Do they talk? 
Appearently some of them are stupidly over tuned also.  The Horde Mage chick you get at the end of your ashran intro quest for example is appearently pulls better dps then most actual dps characters untill you start gearing up with heroic drops, makeing her pretty much the mandatory bodyguard.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on November 27, 2014, 03:51:03 AM
There are five bodyguards available to both sides; it's not a trait that randomly appears, but is static set. As you run around and kill things, you gain rep with them. At level 2 standing, they get a new powerful ability. At level 3 standing, they get a utility power for you.

Play me out, WoWHead.

http://www.wowhead.com/guide=2533#bodyguards


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on November 27, 2014, 04:04:03 AM
Viv is mental. 


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on November 27, 2014, 04:25:39 AM
Maybe, but I'll bet she's not as bad as Illona, who's a pain in the arse to farm with because she wants to tank EVERYTHING, but doesn't have any self-healing or mitigation tools aside from AoE taunting every 5 seconds.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on November 27, 2014, 04:32:53 AM
Is it on purpose that XP from quests and monsters is on a very diminishing curve in Cata? I hit 85 while questing in Twilight Hinterlands and suddenly mobs only give me 40 xp and quest reward XP have dropped to 2000 - 4000 XP per quest. Quests are still marked as yellow in my log though.

Is it on purpose that damage and crit go up so quickly when you have "outlevelled" a zone. I've noticed that while XP reqards went down significantly once I hit 85 damaga went up quite a bit. It's a bit ridiculous that even just a level or so ago I had to manage exactly what to kill and had to use food and water between fights and now I two shot the same mobs with 15,000 damage criticals.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on November 27, 2014, 04:44:48 AM
Isn't 85 and xpac divide ?  There's your answer.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on November 27, 2014, 04:50:21 AM
The person who was responsible for the general quest design in Cataclysm should be slapped hard.

Don't teleport me to a totally different zone just because I clicked "accept" on a quest when 90% of the time you have a "ask person X to start" mode instead. If you do then don't tell me the major things I need to accomplish via a confusing in game cut scene or a lengthy dialog that only shows up in my chat windows. If you do don't put a failure mode in the quest just because I was confused and didn't know what to do.

At one point during questing in the Twilight Hinterlands I found myself suddenly standing beside Thrall at the Maelstrom with not a fucking clue what I was supposed to do except "Help Thrall against Deathwing" which was impossible because I'm a melee char standing on a tiny platform while the big fucking dragon was flying through the air half a mile from where I was. So I spent most of the quest being insulted and reprimanded by Thrall for doing fuck all until I magically completed the quest.

Then I was teleported back into the middle of another boss fight that I had no clue about and promptly died.

Shortly after I accepted a quest in Orgrimmar and suddenly found myself being teleported into a Level 85 heroic instance in the Caverns of Time with no way of going back and not a single hint (except the dungeon icon in the log) that it was a quest where a group would probably be a good idea.

Don't do this especially when you've devalued the Elite moniker so much before. When you design quests that have your players go it alone against a boss mob just because you'll want to have yet another opportunity for a Lore Character to save the day then make it fucking clear that no, this is a quest where you probably should have a group because this time Garrosh or Orc Jesus won't magically show up to save the day.

Also if I wanted to watch extended cut scenes in which badly written characters do badly written things while I have no agency then I'd go and play Metal Gear Solid instead


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on November 27, 2014, 04:57:47 AM
Isn't 85 and xpac divide ?  There's your answer.

It has been that way before though. Also it gives you even less of an incentive to finish up old zones. Which is pretty bad because most Cata zones and a few WotLK ones are unusable if you haven't done at least the minimum number of quests necessary to get rid of the zoning stuff.

Hyial for example is pretty much useless even for resource gathering until you went through all the zooning quests.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on November 27, 2014, 05:22:33 AM
Yeah, but that's the same as it ever was.

"I may, in fact, ding 90 in the first Panda zone.  I'm sure as hell not going to fucking stick around, even though I'm missing ALL the expansion because, frankly, there's another expansion and a garrison and better loot and why would I waste my fucking time ?"

This is the mindset of the bulk of the playerbase, so you're in a wee minority. 


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on November 27, 2014, 05:49:40 AM
I know.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on November 27, 2014, 05:53:34 AM
It's the flip side of the zoning technology really. I like it because when done right it gives you the impression that you actually have an effect on the world as it changes due to your questing and Blizzard can do a lot of interesting stuff with it.

On the other hand it makes zones like Twilight Hinterlands completely pointless when you haven't put the minimum amount of quests (I had to do 45 until all the zoning was done) into them. The zonr doesn't even have any flight masters until a certain questing milestone uncovers them.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Merusk on November 27, 2014, 09:52:34 PM
At one point during questing in the Twilight Hinterlands I found myself suddenly standing beside Thrall at the Maelstrom with not a fucking clue what I was supposed to do except "Help Thrall against Deathwing" which was impossible because I'm a melee char standing on a tiny platform while the big fucking dragon was flying through the air half a mile from where I was. So I spent most of the quest being insulted and reprimanded by Thrall for doing fuck all until I magically completed the quest.


Reading quests helps. That was a vision, not reality.  EVERYONE gets the same result.


In other news, I found a reason to keep one person harvesting; Primals. They don't drop often enough from the mine and I haven't gotten them at all in missions. They're useful for getting crafting mats.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on November 28, 2014, 04:17:50 AM
So, you're harvesting to get crafting mats ?

Tell me more.

 :grin:


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: SurfD on November 28, 2014, 05:11:16 AM
At one point during questing in the Twilight Hinterlands I found myself suddenly standing beside Thrall at the Maelstrom with not a fucking clue what I was supposed to do except "Help Thrall against Deathwing" which was impossible because I'm a melee char standing on a tiny platform while the big fucking dragon was flying through the air half a mile from where I was. So I spent most of the quest being insulted and reprimanded by Thrall for doing fuck all until I magically completed the quest.


Reading quests helps. That was a vision, not reality.  EVERYONE gets the same result.
I don't think there was anything in the quest itself that explained that bit.  You had to be paying attention to the NPC dialogue in your chat window before and after the event to figure out that the thing with Thrall on the cliff was a vision sent to fuck with your mind by the old god manifestation you were attacking.   You were supposed to feel helpless and confused as you tried to help Thrall and there appeared to be nothing you could do. because that was what the old god wanted you to feel.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on November 28, 2014, 06:22:16 AM
I hate the inconsistent design of those quests in cataclysm. I really do.

Sometimes they use pre-rendered in game cutscenes. sometimes they use interactive in game cut scenes, sometimes the quest text and dialogue is just shown in the chat window, sometimes you get the text in chat bubbles. Sometimes in the quest description itself. Sometimes you have voice overs and any combination of the above. Sometimes you get a "talk to x to start" option, sometimes they just dump you in medias res. Sometimes they give you crucial hints in the chat window, sometimes they do it via a sound effect and the raid announce mechanism (flashy yellow text in the middle of the screen)

There are even unskippable cut scenes, like the one in the final quest of Twilight Hinterlands with Cho'Gall. If you die during the boss fight you get reset to before the cut scene and have to rewatch everything.

Of all those things I hate the "dialogue and quest text in the chat window the most". With today's resolutions the text is tiny and hard to read and your focus is on what happens on screen during an event or boss fight and not necessarily on the tiny text that scrolls though your chat window.

For what it's worth they seem to have realized this in Mists of Pandaria because at least until now they usually stick to one kind of design with voice overs and chat bubble text for important or crucial stuff.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on November 28, 2014, 06:25:49 AM
It's still bad in Pandaria.  Leveling my old chaps to keep the wife company and if I have to listen to Lorewalker Cho and his FUCKING STUPID stories one more time I may kill someone.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on November 28, 2014, 06:59:12 AM
Is that the "don't bring your petty conflict to our shores but feel free to stay around and bash each other's heads in" guy that usually shows up after every major quest ends? That guy is pretty annoying from the start. Also a pretty disgusting racial stereotype.

Also by the time the first zone is finished me and my Horde buddies have already murdered hundreds of Alliance and half of the animal population while liberating dozens of indentured Pandaren servants from their Alliance yoke (and I guess it's vice versa for the Alliance). So sorry buddy, but the conflict is already there and won't leave unless you're throwing everyone out with your "small but capable band of Pandaren Warriors".

The whole conceit of MoP is on a whole new level of stupid, even by WoW "lore" standards. Also Garrosh Hellscream is a stupid cunt and whoever allowed him to lead the horde should be drawn and quartered (especially since the Orc Space Jesus responsible for the mess then runs away to join those Earthen Ring hippies).

The overarching story was never a strong point of the Warcraft series but in Cataclsym and MoP it's gotten especially bad even by Metzen standards.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Merusk on November 28, 2014, 10:41:36 AM
So, you're harvesting to get crafting mats ?

Tell me more.

 :grin:

Primals are the way arou t the time cock block.  I needed a "reroll stats" item crafted but only had 5 resources and they take 10.  My choice was wait another day, sending the entire craft grind back.  (Helm, scope,  Ike el upgrade) or blow 50 primals to do it now. 

Your. It getting around the 7-10 day grind for a "useful" item with them but you can shorten it.  Like I said it's worth having it on ONE char but not all.

It's also the only way to get savage blood if you don't want the building that gives them.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: SurfD on November 28, 2014, 02:53:40 PM
sort of annoyed that the Mine opens up at level 92, but the herb guarden does not open up untill something like 96.  Constantly having to shuffle herbs around from my main to feed a few of my crafting alts is a pain, meanwhile i am fucking SWIMMING in ore that i pretty well have absolutely no use for.... guess it is time to hit the AH.

Couple of other things i have learned:
- Once you ding 100, any of your alts get automatic access to purchase the tier 2 blueprints for the Secondary Profession structures (mine, fish hut, herb garden), so i essentially have 3 level 2 alt mines on the go atm for what amounts to about 3 hours of leveling per alt to fire off the level 2 garrison upgrade.
- Most "profession" followers can be safely removed from their profession building and sent on quests to level them up.  You only want to stick them back in the building at specific times
  -  Any profession follower with a "daily" quest will offer the quest as soon as you put him in the building.  Throw him in, grab the quest, pull him out again.
  -  Appearently Work Order Payouts are calculated when you OPEN the work order drop-box, so stick your follower in the building, collect your spoils, then pull them out and grind more missions
  -  Herb / Mine follower should be put in their buildings before the daily reset happens, because that is when their follower bonus is calculated and applied (such as the herb guy's ability to dictate planting of a specific herb).


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on November 30, 2014, 07:32:02 AM
One disadvantage of the whole streamlined levelling experience is that I'm now getting my ass handed to me more offen in Draenor since I'm so used to breezing through the content.

Also the Garrison is both great and a really devious idea. I can really see them selling boosts special plans and rare followers for money. they may never do this but they could easily. Also if they ever release a companion app for iOS and Android a lot of people's productivity will suffer.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: angry.bob on November 30, 2014, 12:30:02 PM
One disadvantage of the whole streamlined levelling experience is that I'm now getting my ass handed to me more offen in Draenor since I'm so used to breezing through the content.

Also the Garrison is both great and a really devious idea. I can really see them selling boosts special plans and rare followers for money. they may never do this but they could easily. Also if they ever release a companion app for iOS and Android a lot of people's productivity will suffer.

Not only that, imagine the money to had by selling special "racial only" or racial model replacements for the building they already have. Dwarven style garrison? No problem, $100 please. Or $20 per building. Whatever. It would be money hats and take very little extra work I believe.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Setanta on November 30, 2014, 11:01:20 PM
Guilty as charged - I'd spend 50 for a tauren themed garrison.

I also love the guardians - I was struggling to solo content on my undergeared 100 warrior. Brought the follower Viviane (level 100) along with me and she melts faces.

All my alts are getting her to 100 now.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Rokal on December 01, 2014, 02:04:26 AM
Once you get your Barracks to level 3 you can assign guards of a specific race, and they'll also post banners from that race all over your Garrison. It's as close as you'll get to race-specific Garrisons, at least for now.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: luckton on December 01, 2014, 03:52:14 AM
Or, if you're a Death Knight like me Exalted with the Knights of the Ebon Blade, you can have Ebon Blade DK guards  :drill:


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 01, 2014, 04:42:19 AM
I'm now Level 93 and have finished the first zone of the new expansion, Frostfire Ridge. Blizzard has managed to do a lot of things right. I generally like the cinematic in game stuff although the story so far is nothing to write home about.

I like the zones I've seen so far as well although they are really not that great to traverse on foot and on mount. Maybe I'm just not used to it after all the flying but I feel that the maps usually make you backtrack a lot or accidentally go the wrong way because the map is not great at visualizing where you might run into enemies or get stuck on a mountain range.

The optional assignments are nice. The rare spawns and boss mobs are not. I like that you can discover a lot of stuff by accident and also that you might get a few items and XP out of it. I don't like that you now have what is basically half a dozen Fel Reavers running around the map in quest zones. At least the aggro ranges are not that large. Also once the rush has died down late-comers will never be able to kill those unless they have outlevelled the zone. I also don't like that Blizzard has now basically managed to muddle any meaning the Elite and Rare monikers might have had at some point in the past. With all the quest bosses  that you end up charging with your Frostwolf army and rares that hit as hard as Elites you'll no longer have any clue what you can challenge and what not.

Blizzard should have kept flying for corpse runs. With all of the terrain, corpse runs have become seriously annoying again.

Garrisons are nice but will be the end of any sort of social aspect WoW might have had as everybody is just staying in his/her Garrison and no longer in the capital cities.

I really don't like the boss fights as part of a quest chain mechanic. I hope they scrap that bad idea in the future. I get what they try to accomplish with WoD, with proving grounds and now those kinds of quests they want to make sure that more people are prepared for what comes in dungeons and raids. The boss fights at least are pretty bad at conveying that though. If they integrate boss fights with AI party members they should damn well make sure that they work like actual boss fights and that your AI party perfoms as a human party would. They also need to communicate a whole lot better what abilities a boss has and how to counter them. Right now even in scripted fights like the end of the Frostfire quest chain against Fenris (please Blizzard come up with better names than that) you can't really manage aggro because Durotar and his brother don't taunt, don't hold aggro and often decide to attack only one of the mobs.

So while you could in theory learn how a boss fight works you usually just learn how to cheese it. Take the mentioned example. You can try to fight but since there's no real aggro management and taunting going on, you'll end up getting pounded on by either Fenris or his pet. So you either stand back and watch as the AI mauls the boss (they apparently can't die) which is not why I usually play those games, or you'll end up corpse running back into the fight a lot until the AI has mauled the boss.

Either mark them as group or make sure that the AI is at least decent enough to give you a chance to fail because you fucked up and not because warchief Durotan can't even taunt a mob out of a paper bag.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 01, 2014, 04:47:18 AM
The fights are also not really great for all roles since many of them don't even feature a healer so if you're not a DD with a way to shed aggro once in a while you'll end up standing on the sideline watching the AI fight stuff. A warrior doesn't really have anything he could do since being pounded on with no healer will make sure he'll end up dead and once a healer pulls aggro away from warchief and his brother (which will happen a lot due to the bad aggro management) he's toast.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on December 01, 2014, 04:56:18 AM
Um.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 01, 2014, 05:15:31 AM
Yes?


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 01, 2014, 05:39:06 AM
Every final mission of one of the "stories" of Frostfire Ridge has ended in a boss fight involving one or several Elite mobs. Every one of them puts you and a few of the story NPCs (Durotan, Thrall, Medhiv etc.) up against them. Neither of those missions works very well as a boss fight because of the inane AI.

At least I suppose that Blizzard sees them as actual boss encounters because they gave the bosses specials that are announced via raid announce and you'll actually have to work with the mechanics of the fight to some extent to not die easily. I also suppose that they are designed to be played solo, because they are not marked as "group". In prior expansions those fights would have been labelled as "group" with "suggested players (X)" as recommendation. If Blizzard designed it as actual boss fights they don't work very well though, because you don't have a party that covers all of the main roles (tank, healer, DD) or if it does the AI doesn't play to those strengths and the wonky AI in general means you'll end up pulling aggro a lot if you really want to involve yourself in the fight.

In the final fight against Fenris I spent most of the time either running away from the boss because none of the NPCs had his aggro or running back into the fight from the spirit healer because he had pounded me into the ground. The best suggestion most players have for those fights is to "just stand back and let the NPCs do it" or to cheese it in another way. If that was Blizzards intention though then why make them interactive boss fights in the first place?

Right now it doesn't make any sense to really play these bits as actual boss encounters because just standing there and letting the NPCs do it works equally well and even if you die the encounter doesn't reset so you can just corpse run until it's over. Which makes them very pointless endeavors and just that much more annoying than just watching an in-game cut scene that basically has the same effect.

So why do it?

This might not be the end of the world, really, because those encounters are so easy to cheese and depending on your gear and class they might not be a problem at all but I seriously don't get why they made those in the first place. They fail as a way to get people to learn how to play and so are basically a waste of time compared to a cut scene if all I do either way is stand and watch as other people do it.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on December 01, 2014, 05:44:10 AM
Ok, fair enough.

But I've not yet seen a boss fight or Rare that was even remotely hard to kill or survive through.  Only that Worm in the Lava was any issue and that was because we didn't realize we had to feed it Ogres.

By the stage you're talking about, you should have your Garrison Reinforcements, which will Mince anything you fight.  All tanks have self heals these days that should pull you through.  The gear level by the time you're where you're at should be well in advance for what you're trying to do.

My 'Um' was that I didn't know any way to address what you were saying beyond 'Lern2play' or 'You're not playing the game I'm seeing' and neither of those are EVER helpful nor polite.  I get what you're saying about the boss fights conceptually (and you're entirely right, they're fucking retarded and, for the most part, lolmetzen Green Jesus shite), but I don't see the difficulty, in all honesty.

So, in conclusion, you're right and I agree with you, but once again this is you railing against shit we already know and have come to some form of acceptance with.

The way to win here is not to play.  Or watch Moffat.


My post is entirely pointless.  This sums up so much lately.   :heartbreak:


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 01, 2014, 05:59:37 AM
It's not the l2p part that really aggravates me. It's that Blizzard clearly has invested a lot of time into those bits and now suffers from "we designed it so you have to experience it" syndrome so prevalent in AAA game development today.

It's also the fact that they clearly want you to learn basic team play and game mechanics and didn't even bother to design the fights in a way to facilitate that. If they seriously wanted you to l2p then give us the holy trinity as back-up so that everybody can play those fights regardless of class and role and make the NPCs actually play to those roles.

Otherwise people will just abandon those quests or cheese them and the garrison upgrades let you quite easily cheese any boss encounter if you so choose anyway.

I'm not really railing against them. I'm a bit angry about those bits though because they were designed so that people should learn game mechanics and not only utterly, utterly fail at that but even worse teach players how to subvert them. I don't think that Blizzard really intended for players to become reliant on bodyguards and Garrison reinforcements to cheese content they spent a whole lot of time designing and testing.

The way they are currently implemented though makes them utterly pointless bullshit that fails on every level (and I'm talking about an MMO so the irony of that sentence is not lost on me).


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 01, 2014, 06:05:22 AM
I have the feeling that the Garrison and bodyguard mechanics will end up hurting the game more than help it in the long run.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on December 01, 2014, 06:05:50 AM
I find it strange that you have to wait till 100 to get the proving grounds quests too.

If you're going to put in a boost to 90 for scrubs, then give them these quests RIGHT NOW so that they don't wipe the group with retarded behavior.

Wife complains that tanks are just The Worst in pugs now due to all the active avoidance that they have and have to use.  They don't.



Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on December 01, 2014, 06:06:26 AM
I have the feeling that the Garrison and bodyguard mechanics will end up hurting the game more than help it in the long run.

Yeah, it's serious bullshit.  You basically end up as a tagalong to The Vivianne Icy Adventures.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 01, 2014, 06:18:54 AM
I haven't played the game for years now. The last time I've played any sort of endgame content was Icecrown Citadel and the 5-man heroics during Wrath of the Lich King. Seems to me that the game hasn't gotten any harder over the years. If you know the mechanics of a boss fight they are not that hard. So giving people any less incentive to learn seems a bit disconcerting to me given the amount of players that didn't even know the basics for 5-mans in WotLK (or ever really).


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on December 01, 2014, 06:21:40 AM
Skyreach will fucking kill anyone who's not paying attention.

It is a holocaust centre for noobs.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 01, 2014, 06:28:54 AM
It's still basically "don't pull aggro, unless you're the tank", "don't stand in shit", "don't end up in front of the boss's huge weapon if you're not the tank" (or you're not into that stuff),  "don't be a dumbass" and "if you're the tank, actually tank and use your mitigation abilities" though for the most part, isn't it?

Basically "don't be an idiot" and at least know what your class and role is supposed to do.

Not really rocket science, I'd assume.



Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on December 01, 2014, 06:49:34 AM
You're seriously underestimating how the last 3-4 expansions have eroded the core concept of 'don't be a dumbass'.

The LFR I enjoyed a lot was basically a team of 5 competent guys carrying 35 other retards.



Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 01, 2014, 06:56:44 AM
I've read up on the first encounter of Skyreach. The amount of movement and positioning rquired will make this a bane for noobs everywhere.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on December 01, 2014, 07:14:36 AM
The last fight will basically be tanks watching the other four being hurled to their death.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 01, 2014, 07:42:55 AM
I have the feeling that the Garrison and bodyguard mechanics will end up hurting the game more than help it in the long run.

Yeah, it's serious bullshit.  You basically end up as a tagalong to The Vivianne Icy Adventures.


SWTOR does it and it's revolutionary, wow does it and... fuck those guys. 


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on December 01, 2014, 07:54:13 AM
It's not a valid comparison, I don't think.

The basic idea is the same, but the exectution, not so much.  SWOTOR did it better.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Merusk on December 01, 2014, 09:48:36 AM
Nah, Horde just has an OP follower. Works fine on the Alliance side, where your first follower is a DK who you'd rather not drop D&D every place.

Unless you're referring to the fact that SWTORs are integrated into a story.  That wouldn't fly in WoW, two totally different games.  People are bitching about being "forced" into things like watching the story cinematics for 3 seconds. I can only imagine the flecks of nerdrage spittle flung about if you had the same sort of story interaction as SWTOR.

I don't see the big deal. its certainly not worth 3 posts and 4 pages of text.



Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 01, 2014, 09:53:07 AM
I don't get your comment because neither of us made that comparison to SWOTOR but regardless in WoW it is an issue for the post-levelling game. Since I don't know SWOTOR I can't really make a vild comparison as to the differences though. The main problem for WoW is that Blizzard identified the issues yet implemented solutions that not only won't work but may actually be counter-productive.

The end-game is purely raids and dungeons (or arena PVP) and to experience that you need a certain gear level and also an idea how to play your class and what you have to do according to your role in a fight. The basic game has gotten worse and worse over the years at teaching you that.

It's also gotten harder and harder to actually do certain kinds of grouping quests due to the way levelling works and how groups can be formed. Also due to the spread between hardcore and more casual players time-wise (when they reach content) . I'm just 4 weeks behind on content and I already have a hard time finding groups. Most players from the intial batch right after release have since moved on to other zones or have since reached level 100 and many of the more casual players tend to skip group-type quests entirely because there is really no point in looking for a group for hours when you have outlevelled the zone three days from now anyway.

So a part of your player-base has already done certain group-related quests because they were there first and another type of players tends to sip those quests entirely anyway. Blizzard has spent much time and effort designing those type of quests though. They also know that team-skills are relevant as soon as you reach max level.

So they chose to have the game teach you those skills and mechanics without the need to group with real people. Most quests that would have been 5-man group quests in previous expansions now only require you and a few quest-related NPCs and if those are not available you can requisition them from your Garrison of you so choose. The fights are (a bit) more mechanically challenging and require you to actually do more than just stand there and whack at the boss but in theory you should have NPCs helping you.

So in theory the garrison and NPC system should make you less dependent of other players while still being able to experience all the content Blizzard spent so much time developing and the mechanics of the fights would still be teaching you the basics you'd need once you tunr 100.

The problem is that most of the questing boss fights do a bad job at actually teaching you anything because they don't work like actual boss fights do. The NPCs don't act like party members (ideally) would and the boss doesn't react to their or your actions in a way a dungeon boss would. The fights won't even have similar fail states. So all the current system accomplishes is that it makes content easier accessible to more casual players or players that don't have many friends or guild members playing. Which by itself would be a virtue and I'm actually not against that. The bad mechanics coupled with the pretty overpowered bodyguards though trivialize the content in a way that the game pretty much plays itself with you watching. Which wouldn't be a problem by itself either.

It doesn't manage to teach players what it set out to teach though at all. Quite the contrary. It only teaches them that those fights will become a whole lot easier with their level 100 bodyguard or not worth the bother without and pretty much nothing else. By the time they reach max level and actually want to do dungeons they are really unprepared for what they need to do in an actual group during an actual dungeon run. Even though the system was designed to teach players exactly that.

So what I'm trying to say in entirely too many words is that the system only manages to make levelling content easier and more accessible which is fine. It manages that without helping be better at the game even though the whole system mechanics qwere designed to do just that. By doing both those things the system is not only not helping but actually accomplishing the opposite of what it was trying to.

The GW and GW2 systems were a lot better in that regard.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 01, 2014, 10:06:41 AM
So basically you're saying the you play world of warcraft are are shocked to find that it is in fact, world of warcraft.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 01, 2014, 10:10:36 AM
Yes and No  :why_so_serious:
I'm more shocked that Blizzard still doesn't seem to know that it's World of Warcraft.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 01, 2014, 10:58:44 AM
Only that Worm in the Lava was any issue and that was because we didn't realize we had to feed it Ogres.

That one was great though. I hope they do more of those.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Paelos on December 01, 2014, 11:28:12 AM
If designers could write in quests where NPCs acted like players in a raid to teach you raids, then I would suggest that you don't need fucking players anymore. Just let me solo raid with my team of bots, and scale appropriately.

This would likely only work in 5 mans, but still. I don't think they can write AI to do that correctly. If they could it would revolutionize their game from a dungeon crawling standpoint, since everyone could bot healers and tanks.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Rokal on December 01, 2014, 11:37:14 AM
I can't speak for the Horde Scenario/Quest stuff in WoD, but the Alliance ones have a paladin NPC that basically tanks everything for you and also throws down OP healing effects on the ground that make it borderline impossible to die. They only "figured it out" in the sense that they realized programming appropriate AI was too hard for them and that they just needed to make AI completely OP to do that style of content.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: kaid on December 01, 2014, 12:37:02 PM
One disadvantage of the whole streamlined levelling experience is that I'm now getting my ass handed to me more offen in Draenor since I'm so used to breezing through the content.

Also the Garrison is both great and a really devious idea. I can really see them selling boosts special plans and rare followers for money. they may never do this but they could easily. Also if they ever release a companion app for iOS and Android a lot of people's productivity will suffer.

Not only that, imagine the money to had by selling special "racial only" or racial model replacements for the building they already have. Dwarven style garrison? No problem, $100 please. Or $20 per building. Whatever. It would be money hats and take very little extra work I believe.

Yup I could see that as a huge selling feature giving a race specific garrison building. I am sure on the horde side you would see a lot of people throwing huge chunks of money for blood elf garrisons. Really other than art time it should not be that bad to do as you have set footprints to work with.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Zetor on December 01, 2014, 01:14:35 PM
Jeff: I don't think the story questline is meant to "teach" anything. The NPCs (and temp abilities, when available) are so OP that they will basically win the battle for you, no matter your role* unless you really mess up (e.g. my warrior using mocking banner while about ~10-15 NPCs were fighting a ton of enemies, resulting in every single mob going for me and a predictable faceplant). The proving grounds at 100 are actually a pretty decent way to gauge the player's skill and help them improve (though it could use more advice and less snarky "OH DID YOU FORGET TO HEAL YOURSELF?!" comments from the npc party members). If you can get Gold in PG, it means you know how to:
- dps: use the appropriate skill combinations / rotation to do steady single-target, cleave, and aoe dps while standing out of fire; make good use of cooldowns and target switching when necessary as well as bursting down "kill this in 10 seconds or the raid wipes" kind of adds; get into optimal positions and use mobility skills for maximum uptime / damage; interrupts and (maybe) CC/stuns
- healer: do high sustained healing under pressure; keep high throughput without going OOM and letting anyone die (triage, mana efficiency); spot heal against high raid damage; stay out of fire; prevent damage to the tank via stuns/interrupts; dispel as needed
- tank: pick up adds (single/multi) in time, position enemies to stay out of fire while keeping THEM in the fire, deal with aggro drops and knockbacks, interrupts, properly use survivability cooldowns against different kinds of enemies (zerg of small mobs, dual-wield melee mobs, slow-and-hard-hitting melee mobs, casters), kite, LOS, CC

In order to queue for heroics, you need Silver, which is much more lenient (especially for dps), but still requires at least a basic working knowledge of your class.

* well, except if you're a healer with no real damage abilities, but soloing like that sounds like the most boring thing imaginable, even with an OP bodyguard


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Merusk on December 01, 2014, 06:16:50 PM
I don't get your comment because neither of us made that comparison to SWOTOR

LO..Wut?

At least read the post preceding mine as convention is, "Don't quote the asshole above you, that's redundant and spammy."

It's not a valid comparison, I don't think.

The basic idea is the same, but the exectution, not so much.  SWOTOR did it better.

See.

Quote
but regardless in WoW it is an issue for the post-levelling game. Since I don't know SWOTOR I can't really make a vild comparison as to the differences though. The main problem for WoW is that Blizzard identified the issues yet implemented solutions that not only won't work but may actually be counter-productive.

The end-game is purely raids and dungeons (or arena PVP) and to experience that you need a certain gear level and also an idea how to play your class and what you have to do according to your role in a fight. The basic game has gotten worse and worse over the years at teaching you that.

Yeah, the basic game has NEVER taught you how to play your class in raids. Ever.  It taught dungeons the same amount.

To go over skills the game doesn't teach, but are required for the endgame: aggro management, stand out of the fire, don't cain-pull every goddamn thing there is, decurse that buff, watch your mana across an extended fight, spec this way for maxdps/ heals/ tank survival, find your partner to do your thing, kite that mob, turn off your pet's goddamn taunt, CC this mob, kill that mob first, listen to directions, DIE WHERE YOU STAND, ASSHOLE, DON'T BRING YOUR AGGRO BACK TO US.

And that's just a brief list of fails I saw in a MC run a week ago. None of which have ever been taught in the base game, because they're meta.

No, the follower won't hurt the endgame any more than granting a level 100 for $90 would. They're skills you learn by studying or repeated failures and getting your stupidity yelled at.  Or you just avoid that segment of the game altogether.

WoW is WoW.  Trying to change that lost them subs, so they made it MORE WoW. L2P has always been a part of that game.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on December 02, 2014, 05:49:22 AM
Fairly sure Jeff was replying to Lakov, not you.  At which point NO-ONE had mentioned SWOTOR at all.

It's still a fairly bad comparison.

This would all be solved if we could just use @.   :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 02, 2014, 06:15:34 AM
Yes, you're right Ironwood.

I reckon that you don't have the ability to change the outpost buildings in the other zones once you've decided on one? I hope they don't contribute too much to your garrison performance because I chose them based on what made sense at the time without first checking what the internet has to say on it.

I don't really get how they decided on when certain buildings unlock. You get the mine and the forge pretty much from the start but you have to wait till level 96 to get access to the herb garden that compliments the alchemy lab. Dual crafting professions are pretty much set to go by the time they do the quest that upgrades the town hall to level 2 but the scarpyard and other building types for people with gathering professions or other play styles (trade post, stables etc.) unlock much later.

Not much of a problem because you hit 100 pretty easily but it's alittle bit weird.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on December 02, 2014, 06:49:22 AM
Apparently, you do get the option at 10,000 gold a pop.

You don't get the quests or followers tho, so I have zero fucking idea why you would do that, except MAYBE the Spires Outpost.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 02, 2014, 07:19:29 AM
I hate it when games demand a choice from you at a time when you don't really know the repercussions and don't give you the chance to change your mind later.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on December 02, 2014, 09:21:46 AM
As far as I can see, it matters not a fuck.  Some of the followers that you are either allowed or denied have certain skills you might want, but not really need.  If you do need them later, well, I guess you could build a Tavern.

The only one that seems to matter is the Spires one, one of the choices seems like a waste.  Yet, the followers are better on that one.  Hmmm.

I know what you mean tho.  The initial Garrison the wife planned is (to my mind) utterly inefficient and worthless.

Please don't tell her I said that.



Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 02, 2014, 09:41:28 AM
I built storage before reading up on why that is a bad idea so I'm not in the position to judge.  :grin:

My main problem atm is that the text descriptions are not really that helpful.  With profession based buildings I usually have to look up guides to get an idea if they would be useful or not. The main question is usually "is this building still usefull if I don't have that profession but one of my followers has?". Even that question depends on what type of building we're talking about.

With mine, herb, garden and fishing hut being defaults and access to stables etc. I don't really see how a gathering profession is really necessary or useful though.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on December 02, 2014, 10:00:47 AM
Frankly, I think they should make The Garrison ultimately account wide and let you have all the buildings.  Because that's what everyone is effectively doing anyway, right ?


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: March on December 02, 2014, 12:25:51 PM
Frankly, I think they should make The Garrison ultimately account wide and let you have all the buildings.  Because that's what everyone is effectively doing anyway, right ?
Everything should always be account-wide, IMO.  We're seeing games trending this way, and the trend is good.  Basically I play the game, and all the characters are just the followers of House March... if Bliz still had an ounce of creativity left in them, all of my existing toons would just be various followers that I could play, send on missions, level-up, specialize, etc.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: angry.bob on December 02, 2014, 12:32:33 PM
Frankly, I think they should make The Garrison ultimately account wide and let you have all the buildings.  Because that's what everyone is effectively doing anyway, right ?
Everything should always be account-wide, IMO.  We're seeing games trending this way, and the trend is good.  Basically I play the game, and all the characters are just the followers of House March... if Bliz still had an ounce of creativity left in them, all of my existing toons would just be various followers that I could play, send on missions, level-up, specialize, etc.

Yes to all that you said.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 02, 2014, 12:44:09 PM
Let me speculate for a moment.

All named mobs I've seen so far are tagged with their special, just like a mob in a follower mission would.
I can level followers and send them on quests and into dungeons
I can equip them and they have professions

It would be trivially easy to extend that system to the levelling of alts. Basically you'd have to name one of your toons as garrison commander (probably your main) and the rest as officers and you could in theory do that. I'm not sure that Blizzard even has considered that possibilty but the way garrisons are set up would make this easy to do. They wouldn't even have to design new mission objectives, they could just use existing quests.

It would be an interesting alternative way to level alts. They'd probably have to limit the number of toons you could level that way on a server though and/or change the quest rewards accordingly.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 02, 2014, 12:46:32 PM
You could even level professions by assigning your alts to buildings.

Make it so that the alternative "Garrison path" is viable but that still gives players an incentive to level toons the usual way (adapting quest rewards, slower levelling curve, timers etc.).


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on December 02, 2014, 02:16:05 PM
 :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 03, 2014, 09:15:36 AM
Apparently Blizzard is yet again the target of a huge DDOS attack and it's affecting all kinds of services. Maintenance was extended yesterday to deal with the problem but it seems that world and login servers are still afected by the debial of service attacks.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on December 03, 2014, 09:20:25 AM
Doesn't seem to be hitting Europe/Me ?

Yay ?


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Lantyssa on December 03, 2014, 09:21:27 AM
Wasn't it determined that the last 'attacks' were just all of the internet trying to log on at once?  Seems suspicious that it's happening again at a moment when everyone is trying to log on at once.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 03, 2014, 09:41:57 AM
It might be because the first WoD raid hit and people all logged in at once but Blizzard massively upgraded server capacity and tech to deal with the onslaught during WoD release and I reckon they didn't scale back on that a few weeks later.

Blizzard is actually dealing with DDOS attacks every few months or so, it usually only affects the login infrastructure but it's not been the first time that WoW has been hit by such an attack.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Hawkbit on December 03, 2014, 10:33:38 AM
It's not surprising.  Lizard squad has been hitting major targets for the past week or two heavily.  I think they took down xbox live the other night, too.

This is a fun site to watch < 1% of attacks happening:  http://map.ipviking.com/  It's more of a marketing tool, but interesting to watch.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 03, 2014, 10:44:27 AM
Last week they hit PSN too


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on December 03, 2014, 11:13:08 AM
It's not surprising.  Lizard squad has been hitting major targets for the past week or two heavily.  I think they took down xbox live the other night, too.

This is a fun site to watch < 1% of attacks happening:  http://map.ipviking.com/  It's more of a marketing tool, but interesting to watch.

Lol.  Everyone is shooting the US.  That's crazy.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Paelos on December 03, 2014, 11:24:21 AM
So according to that map, the Chinese are the biggest assholes.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Hawkbit on December 03, 2014, 11:45:36 AM
From my understanding, Russia uses China to mask attacks, too. 


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 04, 2014, 06:06:07 AM
It was a bit laggy yesterday even on my EU server but nothing compared to the problems the US still has.

I'm now 97. I really like WoD so far. Well except the way the multi-stage fights and boss encounters work but I've already said entirely too much about what I don't like about them anyway.

I like just how much stuff they put into the zones to really make exploring worthwile. The bonus objectives, the rare and elite mobs, the little missions and tidbits you stumble upon while questing or travelling. The "feed ogres to the monster" type encounter was already mentioned but each zone features a lot of stuff like that. Also little bits and pieces to discover like hidden treasures or landmarks. That was what I liked about MoP the most and I'm happy they expanded on that. I'm also warming up to the idea of no flying in Draeonor it makes getting to places frustrating as hell because you constantly have to backtrack because you get stuck on mountain ranges or impassable terrain but the sense of exploration and discovery you get from stumbling onto some "secret" while being nowhere you'd intended to be is really great for explorer types like me.

Yesterday I cut up a falllen tree in Grongor and discovered Alexej Barov and made im a follower for my Garrison.

I also like the random quest reward upgrade system. It netted me two epic upgrades and a few blues already and it even works with rewards from treasures and rare bosses.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Azuredream on December 04, 2014, 06:28:02 AM
I get that same feeling of frustration at not being able to just go in a straight line to places but it just leads me to loudly bitching at my computer screen. You can bet I took that outpost upgrade with the shredder that lets you fly (briefly). It's on a 10 minute cooldown, sure, but every time it's up I can just circumvent all these stupid ledges and mountains. Whenever I hop back to Stormwind it's like I can breath again because I'm not hobbled on a crappy land mount.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 04, 2014, 07:11:23 AM
They should at least bring back flying to the spirit healer. Even more annoying than normal travel in Draenor is doing it during corpse runs.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Hutch on December 04, 2014, 11:09:08 AM
Blizzard just added another flying mount to the cash shop  :why_so_serious:

Embrace your inner evil as you dart through the skies and skitter across the land on this primal prodigy. (https://us.battle.net/shop/en/product/world-of-warcraft-mount-grinning-reaver)


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 04, 2014, 11:25:39 AM
Even though I never want flying in Draenor personally, it would be stupid to release a cash mount that can't fly considering it is available in all non Draenor content.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Rokal on December 04, 2014, 02:37:23 PM
The zone they show in the splash art of it flying is also from Draenor. Seems like a really poor planning.

If you build the Inn you can also get this (http://www.wowhead.com/item=119093) from one of the daily dungeon quests, which launches you into the air and then lets you glide around. Also on a 10 minute timer. There is no slow-fall when you disable it and it flies very fast, so it can lead to some pretty comical results.

I loved the no-flight in WoD. When you finish the quests in a zone the Archaelogy vendor in Stormshield/Hordetown will sell you a treasure map for any treasures you missed. There were a bunch of really cool ones in Nagrand that involved using Goblin gliders around the zone to get to. None of that sort of content would have been worthwhile with flying mounts. I get that it might not be for everyone, but it was a pretty good example of how flying mounts limit content design.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Hutch on December 04, 2014, 03:49:02 PM
So you take your jumping puzzles and your rope climbing, and you put it in a no-flying zone, like on the Timeless Isle.
You let the players fly in the main expansion area, once they reach the level cap and pay their fee.
You let the players decide how (or if) they're going to partake in the content that you've laid out.
More choices, not less. This isn't news.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 05, 2014, 02:55:07 AM
They will add flying eventually. Once the expansion is out long enough for the content to be no longer that important to both the community and Blizzard or at the latest once the next expansion hits and Draenor is just another levelling roadblock you'll eventually get a "Watlord's flight license" or something similar and be ablet to fly in Draenor.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 05, 2014, 08:35:47 PM
The proving grounds seem to be not very well adapted to the class you play. First scenario they gave my single target damage monk a bunch of "AOE this" tests.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Zetor on December 05, 2014, 11:40:15 PM
PG isn't adapted to the class you play at all, but every spec should be able to do bronze and silver without any issues (by the way, don't windwalker monks have decent aoe with fof, chi explosion and spinning crane kick?) since the timer is so lenient. Gold is easier as some specs than others (but still doable as all of them), and Endless is definitely easier to do with some classes/specs than others... but that's just for bragging rights, really.

e: also, adapting them to the class would defeat the purpose of PG in the first place. Like I said in my prev post, PG is supposed to teach players how to deal with some typical situations in groups/raids, which frequently does include AOEing (both cleave and many-target aoe).


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 06, 2014, 10:16:36 AM
The scenario I had to do pretty much required a 360 degree AoE and the monk only has one pretty weak ability that does that. Other AoEs are better but then I'd sometimes hit the time limit because The other abilities only affect maybe a 90 degree angle.

I couldn't do it and now have postponed it until I have better gear than my mix  of iLvl 590greens and blues. No big deal but auto und it pretty weak nonetheless.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Rokal on December 07, 2014, 01:22:32 PM
If you pick the level 90 talent Rushing Jade Wind you'll have a strong AoE spell and can still do damage and built chi while you're attacking. 2-3 casts of that should kill any AoE mobs in Proving Grounds and you can use single-target abilities on the stronger mobs in the packs while RJW kills the weak stuff.

They do get quite a bit easier with gear, but Windwalker Monk is one of the best classes for Proving Grounds. Some of the tougher waves for other classes, like the waves with 2 healers, are completely trivialized by Touch of Death.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Merusk on December 07, 2014, 05:51:57 PM
If you can't make silver with a class for the proper spec, the problem is behind the keyboard. My terrible, terrible wife did it as an iLevel 590 mage who thought she should still be spamming frost fingers.  My BM hunter (worst spec) did it at 590ish with no problems and I almost got through bronze tank on the hunter for the achievement at ilevel 600, and if I'd taken a tank pet I probably would have made it.

The classes do not play the same as they did and often what were once 'terrible' or 'great' abilities are no longer such. Guildie Unholy DK didn't know he was supposed to be using only Plague Strike and Festering Strike. He also didn't understand the big nerf that Army of the Dead received. Once he was taught the change was night & day. Read up.



Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Father mike on December 07, 2014, 11:36:11 PM
Where does one go to read up?  I used to go to Elitist Jerks, but by the end of Lich King, it was all about programming spread sheets to parse max theoretical output.  Practical advice on rotations and gearing was hard to find over there.

But I haven't looked over there since before Cata launched.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Zetor on December 08, 2014, 12:06:14 AM
Where does one go to read up?  I used to go to Elitist Jerks, but by the end of Lich King, it was all about programming spread sheets to parse max theoretical output.  Practical advice on rotations and gearing was hard to find over there.

But I haven't looked over there since before Cata launched.
Icy Veins' guides are pretty decent: http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/class-guides


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 08, 2014, 03:11:38 AM
Do I have to collect every work order before another one starts? I started 14 WO of timber last evening and it seems as if only one of them was finished this morning.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on December 08, 2014, 03:24:47 AM
No.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 08, 2014, 04:59:53 AM
How long do they take then? I queued up 14 work orders of timber before I went to bed last night and when I checked this morning only one of them was finished. (GUI stated that 1/14 work orders were available after I collected)

I had this issue a lot the last few days where I was questing for a few hours and when I went back to my garrison I got the amount of resources one work order would produce even though multiple WO's were queed up. E.g. I went away for the weekend with 14/14 orders queued up and when I came back on Sunday I got 20 resources, the golden timer symbol reappeared and the majority of work orders had'nt completed yet.

I'm currently miles away from upgrading buildings (especially the Garrison Level 3 upgrade) because of that and I started to think it was intended to be that way.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 08, 2014, 05:14:54 AM
Merusk, thanks for the tips.

The bronze PG quest for damage was literally just:

Phase 1: This is a guy, kill him before the timer runs out
Phase 2: These are two guys with a special, kill them before the timer runs out but keep their specials in mind.
Phase 3: These guys have fewer hitpoints but there are a lot of them. Kill them with your AoE abilities before the timer runs out.
Phase 4: There are guys with specials and creatures you have to AoE. Kill them before the timer runs out.

So I used Rushing Jade Wind (I took that talent at 90), Chi explosion and my other AoE abilities in Phase 3 and 4 and the timer ran out every time before I could kill all of them. So I figured that I'm probably too low to do any of them yet. Because either I'm THAT stupid then I should probably not be doing instances anyway or my average gear iLvl is still too low because the tasks required from you for bronze aren't exactly rocket science.

Then I did the tank and healer bronzes in my Windwalker spec and DPS gear and finished them first try.

That's why I was commenting on PG in the first place. The monk has AoE abilities but is more of a single target DPS class though so requiring you to AoE multiple waves of enemies on a timer seems to be something you'd probably use a mage for.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 08, 2014, 05:16:21 AM
Touch of Death is literally the "I win" button for monks


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 08, 2014, 05:50:39 AM
Never mind I googled how work orders work and got the info. It would have been nice though if the game would give me that info and not a third party site on the net

So according to the internet.

- A work order takes 4 hours to complete.
- Level 1 buildings can queue up to 7, level 2 up to 14 and level 3 up to 21
- assigning a follower to a building has the chance to increase yield

A store house extends the queue.

So my 14 item queue is about 2 days of work orders. 10 timber yield 20 garrison resources so I'd have to complete 100 lumber mill work orders to get the 2000 resources I'd need for the garrison level 3 upgrade or 17 days worth of work.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 08, 2014, 06:03:25 AM
Sorry for the spam.

This makes profession buildings for the professions you have pretty much useless after you got the recipes they offer. 1 work order of the alchemy hut takes 5 frostweed and converts them into 1 alchemical catalyst for example. This process takes 4 hours to complete. The alchemy recipe for the same alchemical catalyst takes 20 frostweed and 10 black iron ore, so it is more efficient to take the output of the mine and the herb garden and directly convert it than to use the alchemy lab. This also means that if you want to raid then an alt with the gathering professions is pretty much still a requirement because farming stuff is orders of magnitude more time efficient than garrison work orders.

Should have done the math earlier but this makes the garrison far less meaningful than I thought it would be.

[edit] You also only get level 3 blueprints once you've completed certain Draenor-related achievements. Fishing hut for example requires "Draeonor Angler", Store House requires "got my mind on the Draeonr money" etc.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on December 08, 2014, 08:39:46 AM
As you use more of them, you realize that the rookie mistake of building profession huts for professions that you have is just that ; A mistake.

Also, bear in mind during all that time, you're getting GR queued up at your GR dump.  So it doesn't take as long as you think.

I suspect for 'end times' the Garrison is going to end up being a standard build.

War Mill.
Store Room.
Barn.
Tavern.

I mean, really, all the others are just frippery, but the Seals, the bank access, the bloods and the quests/followers are probably what you're wanting.

If you're raiding, you're going to get better than any of the Prof huts can make eventually.  Also, other stuff can go hang.  Sure, a stables would be nice until you get the mounts, then what ? 

The Garrison would be much, much better if it was account wide and could have more spaces to eventually get the lot.

As it is, it's a distraction from how little this expansion brings to the table.  IMO.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 08, 2014, 09:24:18 AM
Even just a week ago I was making fun of the official forum-ites while talking to a friend because they were complaining about lack of content (as they always do). I more and more come to the same realization though. I'm only a casual player but I've now finished all of the quests and optional objectives (even the group quests) in all of the zones except Nagrand and Nagrand will be completed by the end of the week probably.

So even I as a casual player will have exhausted all of the content except raids and dungeons a month after release. The garrison won't compensate that and since I have absolutely no interest to rejoin the grind for raiding I'll probably cancel my sub once I've seen all of the single player content.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 08, 2014, 09:30:08 AM
I just realized, that that is not even true.

It took me a month to level a char from 1 to 100 and exhaust all of the single player content of the new expansion.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on December 08, 2014, 09:42:32 AM
You don't fancy Molten Core ?  It's all new and wildly different ?

...

 :oh_i_see: :uhrr: :why_so_serious: :why_so_serious: :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Zetor on December 08, 2014, 09:51:49 AM
A few notes about that mega-multipost:
  • lumber mill and trading post work orders are just to get extra resources if you need them 'now'. Honestly they aren't that worth it. Taking lumber mill to level 3 is fine to get the two followers and their associated quests, then scrap it. If you need resources, hunt down 'rare' enemies and treasure items (there are maps in your faction capital @ ashran, but you can also use a mod to display them for you). Or better yet, get follower(s) with the scavenger trait via the inn, and send them on the 1-2 resource missions that come up every day. I think I got a payout of 300-400 resources once... and 120 is pretty standard.
  • Profession buildings are only worth it if they're level 2+ and you have someone assigned to them. Then they basically double/triple (?) your output of the cooldown-gated resource of that profession. You can upgrade crafted gear to keep track with raid gear, but the investments are insane (and all seem to require savage blood). tldr: professions are a clusterfuck, don't bother.
  • Workshop and gladiator's wotsit are fine on your pvp character, because the stuff they have is really useful for world pvp and ashran. Too bad ashran and world pvp both suck.
  • War mill / bunker is an absolute must, and I have no idea why everyone gets a barracks (which is almost useless) to start with. Salvage yard is also a must if you want to keep playing the follower game at 100.
  • fwiw, in my guild we only have 3 people at 100 out of the 8 that reactivated for the xpac. Most of them are around level 93-94. It takes ~20 hours to get from 90 to 100, that's not really any less than the leveling speed of the previous expansions... and let's be honest, the leveling content is the strongest in WOD by far. If that's "lack of content" then fine, it's still better than mop and cata were, at least.
  • Soloing at max-level... sucks, even though I consider the 'daily quest areas' a massive improvement (get a group using Blizz's own group finder tool, they're done in 10-15 mins including travel time). I find the dungeons a lot better than MOP and Cata, and stuff like brawler's guild / PG / challenge modes offers a lot more to non-raiders than any previous expansion.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Nebu on December 08, 2014, 09:55:28 AM
A few notes about that mega-multipost:

For someone that came back to WoW for the xpack and is a bit overwhelmed... thank you for this.  I'm about to hit 100 and am baffled by what I should be doing with my garrison.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 08, 2014, 10:11:32 AM
You don't fancy Molten Core ?  It's all new and wildly different ?

...

 :oh_i_see: :uhrr: :why_so_serious: :why_so_serious: :why_so_serious:

I've played it before it was hot so thank you but no thanks  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on December 08, 2014, 10:21:28 AM
Oh Yeah, Salvage yard.

Yes.  Salvage Yard is awesome.  However, I hear they're going to be nerfing it a little, so, who knows.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on December 08, 2014, 10:22:01 AM
You don't fancy Molten Core ?  It's all new and wildly different ?

...

 :oh_i_see: :uhrr: :why_so_serious: :why_so_serious: :why_so_serious:

I've played it before it was hot so thank you but no thanks  :why_so_serious:

I'm not sure if I should put that'sthejoke.jpg in here or you just wanted to Pun Away.



Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 08, 2014, 10:25:38 AM
I compare it to Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King, especially Lich King. I skipped both Cata and MoP so I can't really tell how long they'd have lasted. 20 hours by itself might not be that bad but this is an MMO and Blizzard hopes that most of the recurring players will stick around for at least a year or until the new expansion hits so if even a casual players has seen everything after 20 hours then I'd not consider that great.

As for the Garrison. If I had known that I would hit 100 much sooner than my followers and that I needed to be 100 to get access to Level 3 - in fact if I had known what you just told me - then I would have designed my garrison differently. Or I probably wouldn't have bothered at all more likely. Barracks sounds nice for the bodyguard until you realize you don't need them. Profession buildings sound nice because they sound like they would help your profession which they don't (also 5 flasks per day are nothing to write home about for a Level 3 lab).

So the most useful buildings are actually the "perk-only" buldings like the barn, the store house, mage tower or war mill which is a tad disappointing to say the least. There's also not really a point in upgrading your Garrison to level 3 then.



Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Paelos on December 08, 2014, 10:26:35 AM
If this expansion's time of delivery is any indication, this one will have to stand up until Christmas 2016.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 08, 2014, 10:28:52 AM
Good luck with that.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Zetor on December 08, 2014, 10:33:09 AM
I compare it to Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King, especially Lich King. I skipped both Cata and MoP so I can't really tell how long they'd have lasted. 20 hours by itself might not be that bad but this is an MMO and Blizzard hopes that most of the recurring players will stick around for at least a year or until the new expansion hits so if even a casual players has seen everything after 20 hours then I'd not consider that great.
Well, that's what I meant. My guild is full of casual players (as in, a few hours a week, maybe 4 hours on the weekend). They're still 93-94, and not because they read every line of quest text.

1-100 in a month is... not what I'd call casual, but ymmv. Also, you really haven't exhausted the solo content until you got Endless 30 in Proving Grounds and Rank 10 in the Brawler's Guild (both solo activities), and neither of those require raid gear (in fact, the PG scales with your gear). Though, based on your posts about PG, this is probably not what you had in mind. :P


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 08, 2014, 10:59:14 AM
I consider proving grounds to be just another type of grind, especially since you need it to unlock difficulty levels.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on December 08, 2014, 11:01:59 AM
Getting Silver in any Proving ground is so trivial, I don't know why they bothered putting it in.

Gold Healing for anyone but a druid is actually hard tho.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 08, 2014, 11:25:29 AM
Casual in my definition is two or three evenings per week, which was more than enough to hit 100. Although to be fair I spent a whole weekend as well because everyone was outand I had the place all to myself.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on December 08, 2014, 12:40:37 PM
I compare it to Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King, especially Lich King. I skipped both Cata and MoP so I can't really tell how long they'd have lasted. 20 hours by itself might not be that bad but this is an MMO and Blizzard hopes that most of the recurring players will stick around for at least a year or until the new expansion hits so if even a casual players has seen everything after 20 hours then I'd not consider that great.

As for the Garrison. If I had known that I would hit 100 much sooner than my followers and that I needed to be 100 to get access to Level 3 - in fact if I had known what you just told me - then I would have designed my garrison differently. Or I probably wouldn't have bothered at all more likely. Barracks sounds nice for the bodyguard until you realize you don't need them. Profession buildings sound nice because they sound like they would help your profession which they don't (also 5 flasks per day are nothing to write home about for a Level 3 lab).

So the most useful buildings are actually the "perk-only" buldings like the barn, the store house, mage tower or war mill which is a tad disappointing to say the least. There's also not really a point in upgrading your Garrison to level 3 then.



Having 25 followers from a level 3 barracks is very useful for having the right combination for missions as well as having a handful working in your other buildings.  Missions are an excellent way to get really good gear once your followers are max and it's hard to get 100% on missions when your pool of followers is sub 20.  Also I don't know about you but having a bodyguard allows me to solo a lot of content that would be a pain in the ass or even impossible, such as the elite animals in nagrand.  The profession buildings certainly aren't necessary but they save time and besides a bank.salvage yard you're always left with room for one profession building so why not. 


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Rokal on December 08, 2014, 12:45:36 PM
Aside from raiding 2 nights a week, I'm only logging in once a day to do garrison stuff, profession cooldowns, and Inn dungeon quests if a new one pops up. It feels like I exhausted most of the solo content in the expansion, but WoD still had tons more stuff to do for a solo character than any expansion in the past. More importantly, I actually enjoyed doing most of it. The leveling stuff didn't outlast its welcome and I enjoyed hunting down treasure, rare mobs, and garrison stuff way more than I enjoyed dailies in MoP.

This expansion feels very alt-friendly as well. It doesn't take long to level up, you get to do different configurations for their Garrisons, the classes are simpler to play than they have been in the past, etc. If you want to check out everything Garrisons have to offer, it's better to do it through alts than by constantly destroying and rebuilding stuff. Finally, all the profession/garrison progress they make can feed back to your main pretty easily.

I'm still really happy with the expansion, even if I'm not logging in too much at this point. I'm looking forward to them unlocking Tanaan Jungle and more garrison stuff through patches.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 08, 2014, 01:07:41 PM
I'm not sure if I should put that'sthejoke.jpg in here or you just wanted to Pun Away.

The puns, baby  8-). When you have to ask, it was probably a pretty poor one though.

If you think about it is quite sad. Ten years of WoW. Ten years of the most successful MMORPG yet and probably ever, ten years of Green Jesus, money hats and internet whining.

And all they could come up with is a rehash of an old raid instance most people will probably never see and a a reskin of a pet. They were even too lazy to not give a fuck about the festivities and chose to half-ass something together and called that "celebration"


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Rokal on December 08, 2014, 01:54:32 PM
They re-tuned the most iconic raid from Vanilla for level 100 and made it so anyone could easily see it via LFR. The raid also gives a Corehound mount and the chance for another pet or cosmetic weapon effect. There's also the Tarren Mill PVP stuff.

It's much more than I was expecting, honestly. My guild did the MC LFR as a group with ~30 of us, and the whole time people were waxing nostalgic about the old raid/vanilla days. It was pretty neat as a trip down memory lane, and a good reminder of how far the raid content in the game has come.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: craan on December 08, 2014, 02:00:41 PM
I did an LFR MC just now to get a fancy hat.  After about 3 hours of that foolishness I unsubbed. 


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: kaid on December 08, 2014, 02:24:22 PM
A few notes about that mega-multipost:
  • lumber mill and trading post work orders are just to get extra resources if you need them 'now'. Honestly they aren't that worth it. Taking lumber mill to level 3 is fine to get the two followers and their associated quests, then scrap it. If you need resources, hunt down 'rare' enemies and treasure items (there are maps in your faction capital @ ashran, but you can also use a mod to display them for you). Or better yet, get follower(s) with the scavenger trait via the inn, and send them on the 1-2 resource missions that come up every day. I think I got a payout of 300-400 resources once... and 120 is pretty standard.
  • Profession buildings are only worth it if they're level 2+ and you have someone assigned to them. Then they basically double/triple (?) your output of the cooldown-gated resource of that profession. You can upgrade crafted gear to keep track with raid gear, but the investments are insane (and all seem to require savage blood). tldr: professions are a clusterfuck, don't bother.
  • Workshop and gladiator's wotsit are fine on your pvp character, because the stuff they have is really useful for world pvp and ashran. Too bad ashran and world pvp both suck.
  • War mill / bunker is an absolute must, and I have no idea why everyone gets a barracks (which is almost useless) to start with. Salvage yard is also a must if you want to keep playing the follower game at 100.
  • fwiw, in my guild we only have 3 people at 100 out of the 8 that reactivated for the xpac. Most of them are around level 93-94. It takes ~20 hours to get from 90 to 100, that's not really any less than the leveling speed of the previous expansions... and let's be honest, the leveling content is the strongest in WOD by far. If that's "lack of content" then fine, it's still better than mop and cata were, at least.
  • Soloing at max-level... sucks, even though I consider the 'daily quest areas' a massive improvement (get a group using Blizz's own group finder tool, they're done in 10-15 mins including travel time). I find the dungeons a lot better than MOP and Cata, and stuff like brawler's guild / PG / challenge modes offers a lot more to non-raiders than any previous expansion.


One side note about the profession clusterfuck issue. If you are using them as a bridge to raid content or upgrades for alts this expansion is actually pretty good crafting wise. My level 92 alt already has three pieces of 630-640 gear one of which is their weapon. This makes leveling up really easy and makes it so you can pretty much skip normal dungeons and go right into heroic dungeons for the couple pieces needed to get you to LFR level.

Also going forward over time the more time elapses the better this boost will likely become. Materially they are cheap and painless to crank out for alts as the main component needed is simply time. This is not very different than how tradeskills normally worked in the past. Tradeskills rarely were that useful for your first character as it was always hard to impossible to not be outleveling their usefulness. This expansion I had three purple pieces on my main right in time for the first raid opening up. So while the new crafting system is awkward and feels a bit detatched its as useful as it ever was and probably a bit more. Everything I am making is being used by somebody I have not had to make anything simply for the act of making it yet.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 08, 2014, 02:48:44 PM
At this moment most normal players won't even have hit Level 100 let alone the iLvl 615 equip necessary to queue for it. The raid will be open for the 10th anniversary celebrations which run from November 20th to January 6th.

Even if they hit the requirements over the following weeks by the time the majority would be able to experience it the event will be nearly over and you'd be needing luck to find 40 players and even more to find 40 players actually capable of clearing it. Even if it is great I wouldn't necessarily design content that excludes a whole lot of players to celebrate an anniversary everyone should enjoy and which should also be a thank you to all of the 10 million players still sticking around.

Even worse when the content only has nostalgic value for a few of those players because most of them weren't around for MC.

Also everyone that seriously thinks Vanilla WoW were the times should be forced to run the updated MC with the Patch 1.1 Classic UI and all of the original mechanics still in place including the attunement quest chain and the orginal boss and spawn timers. Hell let them walk to the instance through Blackrock Depths


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Rokal on December 08, 2014, 03:05:01 PM
At this moment most normal players won't even have hit Level 100 let alone the iLvl 615 equip necessary to queue for it. The raid will be open for the 10th anniversary celebrations which run from November 20th to January 6th.

They gave people two months to get to level 100 in what is probably the fastest expansion leveling content they have ever done. The 615 ilvl requirement is very easy to get. Finishing Nagrand, doing a handful of regular dungeons, and getting the first Legendary Ring quest ring (only requires a Normal dungeon) will get you to 615. The barrier to entry on MC LFR is very very low. Because the mount and pet are account wide there isn't even an incentive to do it on one than more character.

Even if they hit the requirements over the following weeks by the time the majority would be able to experience it the event will be nearly over and you'd be needing luck to find 40 players and even more to find 40 players actually capable of clearing it. Even if it is great I wouldn't necessarily design content that excludes a whole lot of players to celebrate an anniversary everyone should enjoy and which should also be a thank you to all of the 10 million players still sticking around.

This isn't how LFR works. The game matches you with other people to fill the group. You can queue for it solo if you want.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 08, 2014, 03:17:31 PM
I know how LFR works, my entire point revolves around it. You can queue until you're blue in the face if no-one except you is queueing. Good luck actually getting 40 people to queue up for MC three weeks from now and even if you manage to do that, the 40 randoms still need to down Ragnaros to get the mount.

So you'll end up working on content all of the hardcore players are already done with with a bunch of randoms that just turned 100. In MC where a few people actually have to know what they are doing because of MCs mechanics and the fact that voice chat actually was mandatory in MC during classic because of the coordination required

So Blizzard chooses to celebrate 10 years of WoW by giving the hardcore players a few nice perks like a new mount and the majority of its player base the bad random heroic dungeon experience from hell only with 40 idiots instead of 5. Instead of maybe thinking up something everyone could enjoy. On second thought that sums up WoW quite nicely in a way  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Setanta on December 09, 2014, 12:34:16 AM
I did an LFR MC just now to get a fancy hat.  After about 3 hours of that foolishness I unsubbed. 

2 Hours and I had my fancy hat and mount. Shazz was the only pain


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Setanta on December 09, 2014, 12:45:57 AM
At this moment most normal players won't even have hit Level 100 let alone the iLvl 615 equip necessary to queue for it.

Huh? I have my Warrior and Hunter at 100 and all 11 toons in garrisons just sitting and accumulating resources for when they level up so I don't stall on garrison resources. Both characters hit 100 before I got to Nagrand and I'm a casual player who might play for 2 hours a night but not every night. Both characters still had rested XP when they capped and I didn't start leveling until after the server issues died down. The hunter is at 616 and the warrior at 614 largely from the Warrior JCing a ring for the hunter, and the hunter making an engineering helm and then buying a gun because I was swimming in gold.

This had to be one of the fastest levelling expansions I've experienced and I didn't run dungeons until I capped as I was having fun clearing zones of quests.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 09, 2014, 03:27:36 AM
Look a page or so ago I was accused of not being a casual player because I was already at 100. Now it's suddenly "easy to get to 100".


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Zetor on December 09, 2014, 03:42:03 AM
Look a page or so ago I was accused of not being a casual player because I was already at 100. Now it's suddenly "easy to get to 100".
mmhmm. What I actually said: "1-100 in a month is... not what I'd call casual, but ymmv." How is that 'accusing'? People have different definitions of 'casual'. I personally don't think anyone already running heroics and raids (including MC) at this point is casual, but obviously not everyone thinks that.

The actual point behind both mine and Setanta's post was that the WOD content is probably the best of all expansions so far (including BC and LK), it's fairly painless to get through (I'll take 20 hours of fun over however many hours it took in BC with those terrible quests... or even wotlk with its hundreds of filler quests), and there actually isn't any less of it than any previous expansion. In fact, if you aren't a raider, there's a LOT more things to do now than ever before, and most of them are actually fun (even daily quests are less loathsome than at any point in WOW's history). Debating on the definition of the word 'casual' isn't particularly productive in this context.


e: this is kind of a tangent, but 'casual' is one of those terms that means something different for pretty much everyone. In the wow forums (yeah I know), you have people claiming they're 'casual' for doing hardmode raiding only 2 days a week (but of course you have to spend x more hours to be raid ready). Or 'casual' pvpers getting gladiator with "only a few" games per week. For a lot of people, 'casual' means 'non-raider', even if said 'casual' plays 20+ hours a week. On the other hand, some people use it as a pejorative, ie 'freaking casuals are making my pugs miserable'.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 09, 2014, 04:26:39 AM
What is it then?

it's either "well most people aren't 100 yet, even the people in my guild are mostly at 93 -96" as you yourself said not that long ago or it's "fast levelling curve, yada yada everyone is already 100".

If it's the first and if that is the general trend then my point about MC is valid, if it's the latter then well I'm wrong. Don't just change definitions half-way through though just because you disagree with my bashing of MC as content for the 10th anniversary.

Your definition of the term casual is just a tangent here


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Zetor on December 09, 2014, 07:07:26 AM
What is it then?

it's either "well most people aren't 100 yet, even the people in my guild are mostly at 93 -96" as you yourself said not that long ago or it's "fast levelling curve, yada yada everyone is already 100".

If it's the first and if that is the general trend then my point about MC is valid, if it's the latter then well I'm wrong. Don't just change definitions half-way through though just because you disagree with my bashing of MC as content for the 10th anniversary.

Your definition of the term casual is just a tangent here
Wut? Of course it is the first one, since I never said anything resembling your second statement. And yes, people in my guild are still mostly at 93-96.

What definitions did I change? Did I even disagree with your point about MC? Is this bizarro f13? Or.. am I supposed to be some amorphous entity representing all opinions that disagree with you? Ia! Ia!


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Rendakor on December 09, 2014, 07:43:25 PM
What is it then?

it's either "well most people aren't 100 yet, even the people in my guild are mostly at 93 -96" as you yourself said not that long ago or it's "fast levelling curve, yada yada everyone is already 100".

If it's the first and if that is the general trend then my point about MC is valid, if it's the latter then well I'm wrong. Don't just change definitions half-way through though just because you disagree with my bashing of MC as content for the 10th anniversary.

Your definition of the term casual is just a tangent here
Zetor and Setanta are not actually the same person.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on December 10, 2014, 05:21:16 AM
But THEY COULD BE !!!


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 10, 2014, 06:16:36 AM
I know that.

It's just that Zetar keeps teling me that most people still aren't Lvl 100 and probably won't be for some time while Setanta keeps telling me that probably everyone should be 100 right now because levelling is so straightforward and easy.

So I'm somehow both a filthy casual and a filthy hard core player at the same time  :grin:

My point is that I agree with Zetar. This is why I think that MC is not really the right content to celebrate WoW's 10th anniversary. If most people aren't yet 100 then by the time MC ends most people wouldn't have had the opportunity to see and more importantly complete it for the Core Hound mount.

MC might be great (it's probably not though) and it could very well be one puzzle piece of a whole "WoW's 10th anniversary extravaganza" but as it stands the only celebratory content all players have access to is the core hound pup. MC will have ended before most people had the opportunity to experience if they even care for a raid they probably only heard about but never played.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on December 10, 2014, 06:24:52 AM
MC is Shit.

Just to clear that up.

It's as bad as it ever was when you had no choice but to run it.  And, frankly, celebrating 10 years by giving you a shit raid that's the only one and you have to run it is just so many layers of Irony I can't handle it.

Watching Pugs die is fun, but the downside is you have to be in those pugs.



Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 10, 2014, 11:17:20 AM
So they imply scaled it up to Level 100.

Is Ragnaros still on the 6 hour clear timer and simply doesn't show up when you take too long to clear? Because that would be hilarious.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Ironwood on December 10, 2014, 12:03:25 PM
I have no idea, the group I was with took hours getting passed a pack of dogs, ffs.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Setanta on December 10, 2014, 12:25:00 PM
I think you are reading too much into posts Jeff.

I find this weird. For me, each quest turn in gives me 5% experience. The optional sites are more. With rested XP you can punch through a level quickly by following the quest arrow on your minimap. I played for 2 hours tonight on my prot pally and went from 80% through L90 to hitting L92. So far I haven't left the starting zone in fact the pally only just upgraded to L2 garrison. From my experience with my 2 L100 characters it doesn't get any worse. There was a time when leveling meant that there was horrible growth in how much XP you had to complete in the later levels. That just isn't there anymore.

The quests are fun and I get a kick from zone completion but it's the best experience in leveling I've seen in this game. I actually leveled without noticing how fast it was.

I don't do 2 hours every night and I'm not chasing gear although I did a little research on how to get to the MC entry requirement. I must have been lucky with my MC LFR as we wiped a few times but finished.

I get what you are saying about MC was a bad choice for the 10th anniversary but I'm not so sure I agree that people can't hit 100 - the gearing is more of an issue if like me, you are only just setting foot into Nagrand the rewards aren't close to 615. That's why I had my followers mission for 615 gear whenever it came up.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: SurfD on December 10, 2014, 05:48:13 PM
MC is Shit.

Just to clear that up.

It's as bad as it ever was when you had no choice but to run it.  And, frankly, celebrating 10 years by giving you a shit raid that's the only one and you have to run it is just so many layers of Irony I can't handle it.

Watching Pugs die is fun, but the downside is you have to be in those pugs.


Having now personally run MC, I sort of have to agree with you, but more from the "this thing didnt really scale well at all" aspect.   Everything is sort of bizzaro world in terms of difficulty for the raid.  By far, the trash (nearly any individual trash group) is harder then almost all of the bosses.

Once your raid can successfully figure out how to kill the corehound packs, the entire rest of the place actually dying is pretty much guaranteed.   It is also very much "LFR" scaled Molten core, since, while most of the mechanics are there, none of them really matter all that much.  Yes, baron bombs will still kill people if you decide to have fun with them, but for the most part, all the bosses have had their teeth pulled.   Most people dont even bother dispelling debuffs on half the fights, and some you can just easily muscle through.   Garr is a perfect example, where you can just have one tank grab all the adds, another tank grab Garr, and then the whole raid burns the boss down.  Golemagg is another one.  I remember the Dot he put on tanks required tank swaps back in the old days.  Now you pretty much completely ignore it.  Or the Majordomo.  Used to be the adds were actually dangerous, and you had to pay attention to which ones had shields up.  Now?  Who cares, just nuke them down.  It was actually kind of sad how easy the whole place is when tuned as LFR, instead of an actual level 100 raid.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Rendakor on December 10, 2014, 07:01:46 PM
Tuning it to be a real raid takes time and money. No way they'd bother doing that for something that's going to get patched out in a month.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on December 11, 2014, 03:57:20 AM
With majordomo you also had to decide which of his adds die first because of the buff he got when one died.


Title: Re: Patch 6.0.2 - It's a Trap!
Post by: kaid on December 16, 2014, 01:24:34 PM
People die in droves in LFR as is I don't think other than cruelty they would need to make the bosses abilities more powerful. The biggest problem I have seen in there is people insist on trying to skip stuff to "save time" which invariably winds up causing wipe after wipe after wipe down the road as people forget the stuff was not killed.