Season 8 Day 7, It's All Coming Back To Me Now

[drogg]

gonna be tricky for us to schedule since i'm GMT-8 and stuck at work 10-6 the rest of the week, but willing to give it a shot!

[eldaec]

Realistically I think early my time Saturday is the only thing that might work - or possibly late Saturday my time.

What's the latest you could start on Friday your time?

[avaia]

Ramas is on holiday in Sif Ifrika so that game won't get played, however as we can't move on until he's back anyhow I'll bump the due date to the 25th. If that game gets played then that would be great. Likewise I'll hold off on awarding the draw in the Ulysees v MA match until then on the offchance that game gets played too.

[IainC]

Sorry, been super busy at work and this just fell off my radar. I'm going to award all unplayed matches as draws this evening and start the playoff and failoff leagues. If you have an outstanding game and you intend to play it imminently (like tonight or tomorrow) then this is your last chance to get it done.

[Megrim]

Come on people.

[rk47]

Sorry, been super busy at work and this just fell off my radar. I'm going to award all unplayed matches as draws this evening and start the playoff and failoff leagues. If you have an outstanding game and you intend to play it imminently (like tonight or tomorrow) then this is your last chance to get it done.

[IainC]

Will do it today I promise. Game is being released this week so I've been crazy busy.

[IainC]

Ok, so I've awarded 0-0 draws to the two unplayed games and worked out who is going where.





Playoffs. if your name is in this list, leave the Season 8 league and join f13 Season 8 Playoffs. Password is fearchange.

Division 1
1: Jaedar - Family of Twitch
2: r3dknight - Knights of Codexia
3: Megrim - Huitzilopochtli's gift
4: Darth Roxor - Secret Military Union

Division 2
1: strazos - Effing Elves
2: avaia - Bleating
3: ericswiftblade - The Camp-town Orc Boyz
4: Proudft - Burrowing Beetles (beat Carnifex on head to head)

Division 3
1: Ulysees - The Minizillas
2: Ingmar - The Banned
3: Gruntle - Nifty Helmets
4: Teleku - Hazardous Hippies

Wild Cards
1: Carnifex - [F13] Brigeburners
2: Ruvaldt - The First ladies (beat Brocktoon on TD difference)
3: Brocktoon - Power Team Volcano
4: IainC - Fursecution (beat willisterman on TD difference)


Failoffs, if your name is in this list then you should firstly hang your head in shame then leave the Season 8 league, take a moment to think about the life choices that have led to this moment then join f13 Season 8 Failoffs with the password fearchange.

Division 1
Drogg - Muscle Daddies
Satael - Chaos String Theorists
Ramas - Sidekick Storm

Division 2
willisterman - Keep Rolling
Wolven86 - Vibrant Filling

Division 3:
Reborne - Reborne's Wrestlers
Lamaros - Best With the Mess
stabby - Daring Believers!


Go do it!

[Ingmar]

How is seeding going to work?

[IainC]

For the playoffs it will be as normal with the wildcards taking the place of division 4. For the failoffs it will be the random hand of Cyanide letting the leaves fall where they may.

[Megrim]

I don't know what as normal actually is, but ok.

[rk47]

[Gruntle]

Can we fix the ladder so players from division 1 & 3 don't run a chance of playing their second game against someone from their same division?
(something more like:
A1+D4                 B1+A4
    +-->\            /<--+
B2+C3  |          |   C2+D3
           +>  +  <+
C1+B4  |          |   D1+C4
    +-->/            \<--+
D2+A3                 A2+B3
 
unless there is a reason i've missing to possibly play the same divisions again?)

[avaia]

Doesn't make a lot of sense to have the wildcard people have more favorable matchups than second/third/fourth place finishers, does it?

[Gruntle]

Doesn't make a lot of sense to have the wildcard people have more favorable matchups than second/third/fourth place finishers, does it?

if we took divisions A, B, and C and were to retier/redivision by pts earned over the season:

1   19:Ulysees(C1)       18:Jaedar(A1)     18:Ingmar(C2)       15:R3DKnight(A2)
2   14:Strazos(B1)       14:Megrim(A3)    13:Gruntle(C3)       12:DarthRoxor(A4)
3   11:Avaia   (B2)       11:Teleku(C4)     10:SwiftBlade(B3)    9:Proudft (B4)
4   Carnifex(W1/B)       Ruvaldt(W2/B)     Brockton(W3/C)     IainC(W4/A)

that breaksdown to
 2As  (0Bs) 2Cs in tier I placement
 2As   1B    1C  in tier II places
(0As) 3Bs   1C  in tier III places
 1A    2Bs   1C  in tier IV (wildcard) places
==========================
5A    6B     5C

swapping in the tier to maximize for the original divisions (so they are less likely to replay games)


A [3A+1B] = A1:Jaedar (A)    A2:Megrim   (A)    A3:Swiftblad(B)    A4:IainC   (A)
B [3B+1C] = B1:Ingmar (C)    B2:Stazos   (B)    B3:Avaia    (B)    B4:Carnifex(B)
C [4C]    = C1:Ulysees(C)    C2:Gruntle  (C)    C3:Teleku   (C)    C4:Brockton(C)
D [2A+2B] = D1:R3DKnig(A)    D2:DarthRoxo(A)    D3:Proudft  (B)    D4:Ruvaldt (B)


I don't know if that's better or not, but it would mean that the wildcards wouldn't be favored over those who got 4th place.
Mind you I don't like doing it strictly by points as that changes each division quite a bit (and devalues Strazos first finsih in B division).

So instead, we could just build the 4th division by promoting one out of each division and then fill in all the wildcards into the vacant 4th places.
Division A [all A]
1: Jaedar - Family of Twitch
2: r3dknight - Knights of Codexia
3: Darth Roxor (A4) - Secret Military Union
4: IainC (W4/A) - fursecution

Division B [all B]
1: strazos - Effing Elves
2: avaia - Bleating
3: ericswiftblade - The Camp-town Orc Boyz
4: Carnifex (W1/B) - [f13] Bridgeburners

Division C [all C]
1: Ulysees - The Minizillas
2: Gruntle (C3) - Nifty Helmets
3: Teleku (C4) - Hazardous Hippies
4: Brockton (W3/C) - Power Team Volcano

New Division D [2B 1A 1C]
1:Ingmar (C2) - The Banned
2:Megrim (A3) - Huitzilopochtli's gift
3:Proudft (B4) - Burrowing Beetles
4:JRuvaldt (W2/B) - The First ladies

[rk47]

Can we fix the ladder so players from division 1 & 3 don't run a chance of playing their second game against someone from their same division?
(something more like:
A1+D4                 B1+A4
    +-->\            /<--+
B2+C3  |          |   C2+D3
           +>  +  <+
C1+B4  |          |   D1+C4
    +-->/            \<--+
D2+A3                 A2+B3
 
unless there is a reason i've missing to possibly play the same divisions again?)

Because originally there were only 3 divisions of 8.
If we had 32 players, we could've done it.
But not with 8-8-8 grps.
Unless you want Iain to manually dump the league after every playoff stage just to rearrange the match-ups.
It's a compromise we have to accept.

[Gruntle]

Because originally there were only 3 divisions of 8.
If we had 32 players, we could've done it.
But not with 8-8-8 grps.
Unless you want Iain to manually dump the league after every playoff stage just to rearrange the match-ups.
It's a compromise we have to accept.

Not sure i understand are you saying it's a cyanide ui problem?
that I can believe.

[rk47]

Yes, it's Cyanide's problem.
But it's also problem going in with an unorthodox grouping due to player shortages.
Anyways,

Doesn't make a lot of sense to have the wildcard people have more favorable matchups than second/third/fourth place finishers, does it?

The meta works out that some highly rated teams underperformed and got dropped to lower tier match ups hence you see stronger teams appearing on the Wildcards.
Thing is, this whole drop is unplanned - I'm sure they'd rather be top dog and beat on a 4th placer. That's why the 'Wild ones' are.. wild. Yeeeah.
This isn't the fault of the system. It's an unplanned 'easy match-up' - AKA - a 'happy coincidence'

Let's take a look at their line ups:
Wild Cards
1: Carnifex - [F13] Brigeburners Necro 1610 v Secret Military Union Human 1630
This isn't an easy match up. But it's a competitive one. I don't see how this is slated against either side.
Necromantic has the better player base stats while humans have skill defaults to fall back on.
It's a good match between two strikingly different teams. Moving on. Potato to lose badly, as usual.

2: Ruvaldt - The First ladies v C.Dwarf 1600 v Huitzilopochtli's Gift 1490TV Khorne
Most match-ups against dwarves  are always going to be a bitch. But Khorne is an imbalanced team - not in an overpowering sense. It's a basher team with just a single high ST while a single player gets +1 ST per turn. I have to say, yes this is slightly unfavorable to the Khornes - but he has a choice between facing 1610TV Necro or 1600TV Ch.Dorf. What would he pick? He's punching above his weight with the TV in the play-offs, on paper his team looks weaker, but the field plays determine the outcome.

3: Brocktoon - Power Team Volcano C.Dwarf 1270 v The Banned 1700TV Necromantic
This is the hardest match up for Wildcard, no question.

4: IainC - Fursecution Skaven 1720 v Minizillas 2240 Lizard
IainC will run circles around the Lizards easily.

[Gruntle]

Yes, it's Cyanide's problem.
But it's also problem going in with an unorthodox grouping due to player shortages.

I guess I'm saying I'm not seeing where this helped in anyway, as it is in your picture, we have a ladder where
(broken into quadrants)
In the upper left out of the 4 teams, 2 came from division 1 originally, 2 from division 2.
In the lower left out of 4 teams, 2 came from division 3 originally, 1 from each of the others -- this is the most mixed (and they could all have this 2:1:1 ratio)
In the upper right out of the 4 teams, 3 came from division 3 originally, 1 from division 2.
In the lower right out of 4 teams, 2 came from division 1 originally, 2 from division 2.

Just seems like the playoffs won't favor new match-ups... heading towards regular season call-backs.

[Megrim]

Would it be wrong to go with completely random seedings? As in, drawn out of a hat? Or would people be against that, because placements at end of regular season matter.

[lamaros]

Re Failoffs. They never seem to get played so is it cool if I just don't do them? Not worth the effort for a side that is retiring.

[Teleku]

Well, it denies other people the chance to play against you and develop their own teams (the point of the failoffs), but I guess if they just give who ever you were suppose to play a win, they get a ton of free points (two MVP's right?).  So should be ok in that case.

[IainC]

Even if you don't intend to play, please join the league as I can't start it until all 8 teams have entered.

ETA re seedings.

I don't really want to manually fuck about with seeding too much as I'm not impartial because I'm also a player. I'd much rather have a system that is self-sustaining and internally consistent even if it sometimes throws up the occasional screwball. In this case, we have 4 wildcards which could potentially come from any combination of the divisions. Fudging things to make sure that wildcards don't get seeded vs people from their original division introduces a lot of room for subjective judgement calls and I'm not terribly comfortable with that. Much better to just say the wildcards form a 4th division of playoff winners and let the cards fall where they may in the matchups.  As RK said, with 32 players in the main season, this solves itself. We also used this system in Season 6 when we had 3 divisions - that one was even worse because we had 2 divisions of 8 and one of 10.

[eldaec]

Imho, do a tennis style draw, so top 4 seeds (winners plus best runner up) play bottom 4 (wildcards), next 4 (worst 2 2nds & best 2 3rds) play the rest, but random within the groups of 4. If any group mates play each other in the first round then redraw the bracket, from second round on its everyman for himself.

If you'd prefer someone neutral to do it I don't mind posting a bracket this evening.

[IainC]

Ok, if you want to do that then I'll go with your bracket suggestion Eldaec. Be aware that it's not possible to change seedings once the tournament has started.

For those of you who have never run a league, the thing you should know is that the playoff seeding interface is orders of magnitude worse than every other part of the Bloodbowl UI. It's seriously horrible, unintuitive, lacking any kind of tooltip guidance or labels that make sense. Moving people into the right place is an exercise in swapping people between divisions and also sides of the matchup and between two lists helpfully labelled 'Qualified Teams' and 'Unqualified Teams'. I still, after three seasons of sorting this shit out, have no idea what the difference between those is.

[rk47]

Imho, do a tennis style draw, so top 4 seeds (winners plus best runner up) play bottom 4 (wildcards), next 4 (worst 2 2nds & best 2 3rds) play the rest, but random within the groups of 4. If any group mates play each other in the first round then redraw the bracket, from second round on its everyman for himself.

If you'd prefer someone neutral to do it I don't mind posting a bracket this evening.

Dem words.. I duno what they mean, but you do whatchu gotta do.

[Modern Angel]

Re Failoffs. They never seem to get played so is it cool if I just don't do them? Not worth the effort for a side that is retiring.

Same here. Plus it's midterms, which my classes have brilliantly spread out over three fucking weeks this semester.

This has, to put it mildly, been a nightmare season for me with illness, work, scheduling issues, etc and I am so sincerely fucking sorry for being a flake.

[IainC]

Those of you in the failoffs who don't want to play, please join the league anyhow otherwise I can't start the league at all.

[Modern Angel]

I'll do so, Iain.

[Modern Angel]

Wait, my god. I made the playoffs. WELL THEN

[Ulysees]

Applied

[eldaec]

As promised, THE DRAW

If you just want to see the final result, click the spoiler:


Process as follows...

 16 teams will be split into 4 pots:
 - Pot A : group winners and best runner up.
 - Pot B : worst 2 runners up, best 2 3rd places.
 - Pot C : worst 3rd place, all 4th place
 - Pot D : wildcards

Within each pot the the teams will been drawn randomly into position 1 to 4 within the pot, and then fit into the following bracket:

Team A1 vs Team D1
Team B1 vs Team C1
Team A2 vs Team D2
Team B2 vs Team C2
Team A3 vs Team D3
Team B3 vs Team C3
Team A4 vs Team D4
Team B4 vs Team C4

If this results in anyone playing a team from their group in the first round, there will be a redraw for pot C or D as necessary.

So here we go...

Pot A teams:

family of twitch  (sic)
Effing Elves
The Minizilla's  (sic)
The Banned

Pot B teams:

Knights of Codexia
Bleating
Huitzilopochtli's Gift
Nifty Helmets

Pot C teams:

The Camp-town OrcBoyz
Secret Military Unicorn
Burrowing Beetles
Hazardous Hippies

Pot D teams:

[F13] BridgeBurners
The First Ladies
Power Team Volcano
Fursecution

Draw will be completed using the sequence generator on random.org. If you wish to rerun the draw yourself, remember you need to enter the date of the actual draw (6th March)

Pot A will be drawn using the random seed 'Pot A'.

family of twitch  (sic)  : 1
Effing Elves               : 2
The Minizilla's  (sic)    : 4
The Banned              : 3

Pot B will be drawn using the random seed 'Pot B'.

Knights of Codexia     : 4
Bleating                   : 3
Huitzilopochtli's Gift    : 2
Nifty Helmets            : 1

Pot C will be drawn using the random seed 'Pot C'.

The Camp-town OrcBoyz   : 3
Secret Military Unicorn       : 2
Burrowing Beetles            : 4
Hazardous Hippies           : 1


Pot D will be drawn using the random seed 'Pot D'.

[F13] BridgeBurners    : 4
The First Ladies          : 3
Power Team Volcano   : 1
Fursecution                : 2


Combining this with the bracket above the provisional result is :

family of twitch  (sic)	~ vs ~	Power Team Volcano
Nifty Helmets	~ vs ~	Hazardous Hippies
Effing Elves	~ vs ~	Fursecution
Huitzilopochtli's Gift	~ vs ~	Secret Military Unicorn
The Banned	~ vs ~	The First Ladies
Bleating	~ vs ~	The Camp-town OrcBoyz
The Minizilla's (sic)	~ vs ~	[F13] BridgeBurners
Knights of Codexia	~ vs ~	Burrowing Beetles

However, 3 pot C teams have been drawn against teams they have already played in the group stage.

POT C REDRAW!

Random seed will be 'Pot C first redraw'

The Camp-town OrcBoyz   : 4
Secret Military Unicorn       : 1
Burrowing Beetles            : 2
Hazardous Hippies           : 3

Revised, and final result :

family of twitch  (sic)	~ vs ~	Power Team Volcano
Nifty Helmets	~ vs ~	Secret Military Unicorn
Effing Elves	~ vs ~	Fursecution
Huitzilopochtli's Gift	~ vs ~	Burrowing Beetles
The Banned	~ vs ~	The First Ladies
Bleating	~ vs ~	Hazardous Hippies
The Minizilla's  (sic)	~ vs ~	[F13] BridgeBurners
Knights of Codexia	~ vs ~	The Camp-town OrcBoyz

No group conflicts, so this is the final draw.

Afaik this means QFs will be

winner match 1 vs winner match 2
winner match 3 vs winner match 4
winner match 5 vs winner match 6
winner match 7 vs winner match 8

and Sfs

winner QF 1 vs winner QF 2
winner QF 3 vs winner QF 4

[eldaec]

In other news, noted Halfling blood bowl franchise 'Sidekick Storm' have applied for failoff glory.

Their head coach, Mr El Daec commented 'Phew, the bottom half of that playoff draw looks rough'.

[Darth Roxor]

Nifty Helmets ~ vs ~  Secret Military Unicorn

 

I think I much preferred my earlier draw.












ALSO ITS UNION FFS ;_;

[stabby the mime]

Ooooh, I see how it is. Finally shameless stabby gets block* on a Flesh Golem, and suddenly people are backing out of the Failoffs eh? 


Also, applied for Failoffs, here's hoping I don't end up with a second asterix on my season record.

(* Or did Stan Bush roll Doubles again? Muwahahah!)