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Khaldun
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Reply #245 on: April 26, 2014, 03:31:29 AM

But cancellation doesn't mean what it used to mean (low sales, unsupported by the market). So Daredevil, for example, had a great run with Mark Waid and several artists, mostly Chris Samnee; was cancelled; was immediately started up again with...Mark Waid and Chris Samnee. The "cancellation" in this case was just about a new status quo for the character--essentially just a new volume for the future trade publication. That's pretty much the way Marvel does it now--a given creator gets his/her shot at a character, when they're done, it's "cancelled" and restarted with someone else.
jgsugden
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Reply #246 on: April 26, 2014, 11:05:34 AM

For now.  Eventually, they'll take all of these short runs and pretend like they were pat of the   main line run that began in the 60s/70s so that they can show the big number of issues again.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
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Reply #247 on: April 26, 2014, 10:20:09 PM

I am actually fine with the serial reboots. They are openly going with the "Hey, are you new on this title? Are you a cool and interesting writer and/or artist? Do what you want with this character(s). Just have some good ideas. Go to it."

This is way better than, "Fix what Mark Millar just broke, because THE CONTINUITY is our Lord and Master."

Sure, does it create some broken stuff? Yeah. So? The next guy doesn't have to fix it, he just has to say, "So here's my thing." I think this is so so so much better.

That's the path that led to DC's multiverse situation, where the same character ended up in quantum states of having done something, not having done something or having done something in an alternate universe that may or may not be part of the current character run.

Ignoring continuity might work well in a the short-term, but it leads to completely inconsistent characterisations.

I do recognise the problems with being slaves to continuity, but completely ignoring continuity has its own issues too, especially in a market where more people read "Spider-Man" than actively seek out the work of (say) Matt Fraction.

HaemishM
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Reply #248 on: April 26, 2014, 11:29:40 PM

This is way better than, "Fix what Mark Millar just broke, because THE CONTINUITY is our Lord and Master."

Sure, does it create some broken stuff? Yeah. So? The next guy doesn't have to fix it, he just has to say, "So here's my thing." I think this is so so so much better.

The problem is that shared universe thing. It creates some really jarring moments for the reader that takes them out of the story and into the "wait, what book do I have to read to figure out why this character is acting like this?" Continuity doesn't have to be lord and master, but if you want a shared universe of stories, there needs to be SOME attention paid to shit that doesn't make sense. It feels like very lazy editing.

Velorath
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Reply #249 on: April 27, 2014, 02:08:47 AM

But cancellation doesn't mean what it used to mean (low sales, unsupported by the market). So Daredevil, for example, had a great run with Mark Waid and several artists, mostly Chris Samnee; was cancelled; was immediately started up again with...Mark Waid and Chris Samnee. The "cancellation" in this case was just about a new status quo for the character--essentially just a new volume for the future trade publication. That's pretty much the way Marvel does it now--a given creator gets his/her shot at a character, when they're done, it's "cancelled" and restarted with someone else.

Sometimes Marvel stretches a bit to justify some of these relaunches though. For instance, my understanding is that the Wolverine just had a relaunch and in a similar situation to what you just mentioned with Daredevil and Mark Waid, the relaunched Wolverine still has the same creative team. The status quo has shifted slightly, but for all intents and purposes, it sounds like it's a direct continuation of the previous storyline which also sounds like it's leading into this whole death of Wolverine thing. This is not the jumping on point for new readers, it essentially sounds like it's the second or third chapter in an ongoing story. There's not really any reason for a new #1 here. That's not even getting into some of their bizarre recent numbering schemes like their .NOW and .INH issues.
Margalis
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Reply #250 on: April 27, 2014, 04:41:43 PM

I think it's important to distinguish between a new series and a new volume.

The problem I have as someone who casually follows comics is that I see so many new #1 issues that it makes comics as a whole seem completely disposable. I listen to a podcast, they review 3 new #1 issues, they never talk about that series again, then I look them up and see that none of them lasted beyond 6 issues. It makes me think "why bother?", especially when it comes to buying issues as they come out instead of waiting for a collection.

New #1s that are actually part of an existing series and just a new arc or volume don't actually contribute to this problem, but they do contribute to the perception.

It would be like if every week on TV half of shows were pilots. The takeaway from that would be "don't bother watching these, they won't last."

For an existing series I would much prefer "Volume 12 - #1" rather than just "#1." It also helps if you want to do things like read back issues in order or do a web search. It's already almost impossible to browse something like Marvel Unlimited and make heads or tails out of it - there are like 6 series all called The Avengers or Iron Man or Thor.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2014, 04:44:47 PM by Margalis »

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Velorath
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Reply #251 on: April 27, 2014, 05:21:58 PM

New #1s that are actually part of an existing series and just a new arc or volume don't actually contribute to this problem, but they do contribute to the perception.

The perception I get from them is "short term money grab". In the Daredevil example for instance, they went from selling around 31,000 issues of #36 in February to around 76000 issues of #1 in March. Wolverine went from 31,000 with issue #13 in January to 89,000 with issue #1 in Feb, down to 47,000 with issue #2 also in Feb, and then down to around 40,000 with #3 in March. These numbers are all sales from Diamond to comic book stores so it doesn't represent sell through of those issues or digital purchases. Also, since comic stores generally order issues three months in advance that means that when you look at something like Wolverine's numbers going down over the first three issues, you're essentially seeing the store owners speculating on the rate of decline from issue to issue.
HaemishM
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Reply #252 on: April 30, 2014, 01:52:42 PM

So X-Men Battle of the Atom crossover... I'm in the middle of it and holy shit is it fucking stupid. It's more of Bendis doubling down on the fuckstupid concept behind All New X-Men (i.e. bring the original 5 X-Men forward in time). Now we have the X-Men from the future coming back to the present to convince the originals to return to their original time. They are led by Jean Grey (yes, back from the dead!!!) dressed as Xorn, only she's not the dead Jean Grey, she's the Jean Grey that becomes when the original Jean Grey that was brought forward in time decides not to return.

Which leads to the old Scott Summers calling her the Old Young Jean Grey (and amazingly enough, Bendis didn't write that line). It's really fucking awful. I only shudder to think how bad it's going to be after they resolve the crossover.

Raguel
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Reply #253 on: April 30, 2014, 01:56:43 PM

So X-Men Battle of the Atom crossover... I'm in the middle of it and holy shit is it fucking stupid. It's more of Bendis doubling down on the fuckstupid concept behind All New X-Men (i.e. bring the original 5 X-Men forward in time). Now we have the X-Men from the future coming back to the present to convince the originals to return to their original time. They are led by Jean Grey (yes, back from the dead!!!) dressed as Xorn, only she's not the dead Jean Grey, she's the Jean Grey that becomes when the original Jean Grey that was brought forward in time decides not to return.

Which leads to the old Scott Summers calling her the Old Young Jean Grey (and amazingly enough, Bendis didn't write that line). It's really fucking awful. I only shudder to think how bad it's going to be after they resolve the crossover.

I've been reading comics off and on for 3 decades and I'm totally confused over what you just said. Except lolxmen lolBendis. I think I'll just leave it at that. Have you gotten to the Xmen/GoTG bit yet?  why so serious?

I'll say this for Bendis: He finally wrote a non Luke Cage centered comic that I liked in the last issue of GoTG.
HaemishM
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Reply #254 on: April 30, 2014, 02:00:26 PM

I'm like 9 months behind most current Marvel comics (Unlimited subscription only allows comics that are 6 months or older), so no I haven't gotten to that yet. And yes, it doesn't get anymore unconfusing if you read the issues. Suffice it to say that despite the fallout of Age of Ultron (WE BROKESES TIME!), Bendis starts the fucking All New X-Men book with the premise that we'll use time travel to wake Scott Summers up. And Beast is the one who decides to do this - which is basically characterizing the "good" Beast as no better than the Dark Beast because he knows that kind of time wimey nonsense could fuck the time stream up. Bendis basically just really likes to make decent characters into aloof dickbags who fuck with shit just because they can... and those are his 'good guys.'

Khaldun
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Reply #255 on: April 30, 2014, 03:40:42 PM

That crossover caused me to stop reading X-Men after I'd re-engaged them for the first time in a long long time after Schism, which I thought was fairly decent. It was just dumb.
palmer_eldritch
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Reply #256 on: June 02, 2014, 08:34:32 AM

The first new collected edition of Miracleman is now out - here's a link http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0785154620 . I got this book, despite having read the stories many times before, and it's still a good read after al this time.

This was one of Alan Moore's early works, although he's so angry with Marvel (I think - lose track of the people Moore is upset with) that he doesn't want to be named on the book, so they call him "The Original Writer" instead.

It's a bit of an odd read because Moore's very early work isn't always brilliantly written. It's a bit too flowery, a bit too wordy and although he'd probably strangle anyone who said this to his face, it reads like he was heavily influenced by the style of writing in Claremont's X-Men. Lots of thought bubbles in which people think about their feelings, rather than showing us their feelings through the things they say and do.

But it gets better really quickly. And the overall story is really fun. And I happen to know, because I've read it all before, that it only gets better.

For those who don't know Miracleman, it's a reboot of an old character from the 1950s/60s called Marvelman, who is himself a bit of a rip off of Captain Marvel/Shazam!.

The idea is that he's now middle aged and living a normal life and has forgotten the magic word that turns him into a superhero. Until one day he remembers it.

The stories in the first volume originally appeared in a monthly anthology comic where they only had four or five pages a month, so when you put them all together the story appears to move really quickly (as each five pages was a month's-worth of story).

There are various artists but much of the artwork is by Alan Davis and it looks great. Stick with the series and in later books you'll get John Totleben as artist, which is a real treat.

It shows its age but if you like Alan Moore in his earlier days or just generally like superhero comics I'd really recommend it.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 08:36:14 AM by palmer_eldritch »
apocrypha
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Reply #257 on: June 02, 2014, 09:29:56 AM

Book 4 of Miracleman was written by Neil Gaiman too, which was great quite but different from the Alan Moore stuff.

The monthly that it was originally published in was called Warrior and was also where V for Vendetta first appeared. I actually bought it each month (-ish, the publishing schedule was extremely erratic) back in the early 80's and still have a box of them, yellow and quite crumbly now, in the loft somewhere :)

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Maledict
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Reply #258 on: June 03, 2014, 01:16:10 PM

The original 3 books of Miracle man are amongst my favourite books ever, especially book 3. I felt the art in book 2 really took a dive (it's fucking awful generally, although the birth scene is great) but book 3 really pulls it back.

Never read any of Neil Gaimen's stuff because I honestly dont see the point in it - why would you write something else? Miracle man was a self-contained story with themes and ideas, and it always seemed to me that anything written after that would ruin the general theme of the original trilogy. I *hate* unnecessary sequels in general.
Fordel
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Reply #259 on: June 10, 2014, 01:09:49 PM

Which one of the X-men series is the one with the kid X-men going to the future/present to bitch at their older selves?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
HaemishM
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Reply #260 on: June 10, 2014, 01:51:04 PM

Which one of the X-men series is the one with the kid X-men going to the future/present to bitch at their older selves?

All New X-Men. It's good moments are few and far between.

Raguel
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Reply #261 on: June 11, 2014, 05:36:43 PM

I've come to the realization, with the latest issue of New Avengers, as to why I don't like the whole Illuminati/incursion stuff:

Ellis already did it and did it better in one issue (the first) of Planetary.
Khaldun
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Reply #262 on: June 12, 2014, 10:27:14 AM

Yes. Planetary was a much much better version of that (and other) stories.

It's not a suitable thing for these characters, also. Look at all the work that had to be done to rehabilitate Tony Stark and Reed Richards after Mark Millar made them into ridiculous douchbags in Civil War. Well, what can they do if there are a number of Avengers who've pretty much destroyed parallel universes? There are a few characters in the Illuminati who can do that and retain some of their heroism because either of their stoic pragmatism (Black Panther) or their at-the-cosmic-scale-of-things-this-is-necessary operating principles (Dr. Strange) but everybody else, well, it kind of ruins their ability to give a heroic speech the next time a villain is ready to sacrifice a town of people in pursuit of an expedient goal.
HaemishM
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Reply #263 on: June 12, 2014, 11:07:16 AM

There are a few characters in the Illuminati who can do that and retain some of their heroism because either of their stoic pragmatism (Black Panther) or their at-the-cosmic-scale-of-things-this-is-necessary operating principles (Dr. Strange) but everybody else, well, it kind of ruins their ability to give a heroic speech the next time a villain is ready to sacrifice a town of people in pursuit of an expedient goal.

This. SO MUCH THIS. The whole Illuminati concept was so fucking bad when Bendis and Millar did it, it's even worse now that they are just flat out destroying entire fucking parallell universes. It's like the Council of Reeds shit from Fantastic Four only with the genocide meter turned up to 11. And let's not even get started on the "how is Reed here when he's also in another dimension/timestream/thefuture/thepast in how own book?" kind of continuity WTF.

Raguel
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Reply #264 on: June 18, 2014, 11:10:47 AM


So here's a solution to the incursions. The problem is Earth, right? The High Evolutionary once made an Earth, yes? If Tony can make a damn Dyson sphere why can't the big brains figure out how to make a replacement Earth (or find someone like the HE to help them, since it's their universe too), move everyone off planet (see Annihilation where a whole planet was evacuated ahead of the wave) destroy the Earth (or someone else's Earth, I don't care) and have everyone settle on the replacement Earth. Problem solved, all with known existing Marvel tech. The End.

But no, that wouldn't involve heroes acting like douches and fighting each other. Dumb story is dumb.
HaemishM
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Reply #265 on: June 18, 2014, 11:21:56 AM

Actually, there's already been a story with a replacement Earth in Fantastic Four by Mark Millar. Reed's old hot scientist chick that he almost banged before marrying Sue and her billionaire husband build a replacement Earth through a wormhole to move only the elite's over to the new world so as to not have overcrowding. Then Hulk's son and a bunch of superheroes from the future where the Earth gets totally fucked make a wormhole using Galactus's body as a battery to teleport their entire populace to the Earth of the present to avoid Earth's destruction in the future, but Reed sends them to the replacement Earth instead. It later shows up when the nu-Earth has a time acceleration and blargadeblargle... yes, the stories were as stupid as they sound. Fantastic Four has had a long line of writers fucking them up since before Hickman got a hold of them.

Khaldun
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Reply #266 on: June 18, 2014, 02:10:58 PM

I think the incursions destroy the entire universe. It just so happens that Earth is the typical cross-over point for incursions because of hand-wavey cosmic significance etc.
Raguel
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Reply #267 on: June 18, 2014, 02:52:11 PM

I think the incursions destroy the entire universe. It just so happens that Earth is the typical cross-over point for incursions because of hand-wavey cosmic significance etc.


I know that they destroy the entire universe but from my understanding Earth is always the focal point. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I am shouldn't the rest of the galaxy be aware of what's going on? The Kree, Skrull, Shi'ar and others are supposed to be at least a generation of tech ahead of us. Even if I'm right you'd think if other Earth-based groups can independently figure this out everyone else should as well.
Khaldun
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Reply #268 on: June 18, 2014, 06:06:20 PM

Yeah. You'd think it might have come up during the galactic whatever w/the Builders and all that. But that's the problem with Hickman: all cosmic, no common sense.
Fordel
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Reply #269 on: June 20, 2014, 04:58:21 PM

As silly as the overall plot is, I really do enjoy the little point of view inserts that Kelly Sue DeConnick did with a few characters. I just like her writing in general.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Fordel
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Reply #270 on: June 21, 2014, 12:34:51 PM

The Thor: God of Thunder book is as fantastic as claimed. It's a ridiculous story that works because it embraces its outlandishness entirely and provides insight into a character you can't really relate to otherwise. Well written, well drawn, well done.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Fordel
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Reply #271 on: June 24, 2014, 03:43:08 AM

Which one of the X-men series is the one with the kid X-men going to the future/present to bitch at their older selves?

All New X-Men. It's good moments are few and far between.


This series is amazing for all the wrong reasons. I love it also for all the wrong reasons.  why so serious?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Fordel
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Reply #272 on: June 25, 2014, 03:01:37 PM

When did Jubilee become a vampire?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
palmer_eldritch
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Reply #273 on: June 25, 2014, 04:55:13 PM

When did Jubilee become a vampire?

For a while they had an X-Men book which was about the X-Men teaming up with other random superheroes. So they did a story with Blade, and that involved Jubilee becoming a vampire.

See http://www.amazon.co.uk/X-Men-Paco-Medina-Victor-Gischler/dp/1846534771 although I'm not particularly recommending you buy it;)
Sir T
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Reply #274 on: June 25, 2014, 05:36:53 PM

That sounds so dumb I think I lost IQ points even reading it...

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Sky
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Reply #275 on: June 25, 2014, 08:29:53 PM

https://www.humblebundle.com/books

$15 nabs you all that plus an Alex Ross art book that is amazing (I have the print version).
HaemishM
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Reply #276 on: June 26, 2014, 09:56:29 AM

When did Jubilee become a vampire?

For a while they had an X-Men book which was about the X-Men teaming up with other random superheroes. So they did a story with Blade, and that involved Jubilee becoming a vampire.

See http://www.amazon.co.uk/X-Men-Paco-Medina-Victor-Gischler/dp/1846534771 although I'm not particularly recommending you buy it;)

Actually, even though they did make Jubilee a vampire, I thought that X-Men book and that particular story was decent. I mean, I've read a lot worse.

Fordel
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Reply #277 on: June 26, 2014, 12:22:33 PM

So I read the Illuminati planet sploding story up to wherever it is in Marvel Unlimited, and as I understand it, if you blow up a earth, you prevent both universes from dieing, you just ruin that earth and so far, they've only blown up earth's that were fucked already for whatever convenient reasons. You blow up earth, then that universes gets shunted off the superpath or whatever the builders called it and its just it's own thing and then albino doomsday cult chick frowns at you for being a pussy.

It's still incredibly silly and just a way for them to set up a soft reboot/merge between their various properties. Cherry Pick the good parts from the Ultimate Universe, oh that guy everyone likes is dead, not in earth- 12345678 he ain't etc.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Khaldun
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Reply #278 on: June 26, 2014, 06:19:27 PM

Given that Crisis on Infinite Earths is widely understood to have caused more story-telling problems than in solved, I'm at a loss to understand why Marvel thinks it's something they want to do too.
Fordel
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Reply #279 on: June 26, 2014, 10:34:37 PM

It's all about execution, they probably believe they can pull it off better. They're probably right. I doubt anyone will punch holes in reality  why so serious?


Read the Uncanny Avengers on MU, this is just such a pile of wasted potential so far. I liked where it was going right up until they started fucking around with yet even more time travel with random generic villains I don't give two shits about. Lets setup this thing with Redskull, show him being a real menace, then forget he fucking exists because we need to deal with the apocalypse wonder twins and their 15 layers of, "but I knew that you knew that I knew that you knew that I KNEW that you knew and its all gone to plan mwhaha!" AND since it's yet even more time travel, it's not going to matter, even a little bit, so who gives a shit.


They don't even give me insufferable teenage x-men yelling at their older selves. That's entertaining at least.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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