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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Guild Wars 2  |  Topic: The Lost Shores - Nov 16-18 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Reply #70 on: November 14, 2012, 11:03:30 AM

Pve'ers have been chomping at the bit for item grind/progression for a while. Anet will be wiser to further isolate that stupid from PVP which they will...for spvp. Can't say WvWvW won't get a marginal power creep or a big one. The main point of this armor is the introduction of agony. They could use this concept for every fucking dungeon or simply designated some dungeons for the mmopve'ers and other dungeons for the GW players. But yeah the real rage is how soon this is coming out and how fuck all its playerbase understands the game on a number crunching basis.

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Furiously
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Reply #71 on: November 14, 2012, 11:26:45 AM

Isn't the new equipment just rings and back slots?

Zetor
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Reply #72 on: November 14, 2012, 11:35:58 AM

Only rings and back slots for now. They've pretty much explicitly said that this is just the beginning, etc. There'll be full sets of ascended gear available in a few months... maybe a new piece released every month to keep the gear grinder people playing.

e: added an important distinction
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 11:55:40 AM by Zetor »

kildorn
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Reply #73 on: November 14, 2012, 02:34:15 PM

Power creep in WvW causes pve issues as well. Do you add agony to the keep lords since our DPS is going up? Do doors get more HP? And if so, siege needs higher damage, etc. At a certain point without creeping everything up, it becomes inefficient to bring siege compared to your usual skills (this issue already exists with bundles: most of the time your basic skills will out-everything bundles)

WvW's balance is delicate enough that they need to stat cap everyone at exotic equivalent and be done with it. Who cares what happens in pure-pve land, WvW needs a low stat cap to both keep the TTK on keeps knowable, and to keep the ramp up from new player -> statistically effective as short as possible.
Modern Angel
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Reply #74 on: November 14, 2012, 03:02:32 PM

That is insane. Did they need to lower door hit points when we were all level 20? Do they need to make sure Keep Lords have lower damage to account for gear discrepancies at level 80 now? Of course not and of course not. And most certainly they won't have to with this because there's more stats (which we don't even fully understand how they scale with damage) on three pieces of gear which may, after slotting, not even match normal pieces with orange quality jewels in them. You're ascribing a level of finite balancing to WvW which has never and will never exist. Two rings and a cloak which we haven't even seen in final form isn't going to turn everything topsy-turvy.

These balance issues which are going to ruin WvW have existed since day one because gear's not equal NOW. Of all the issues with this (and the number one issue is the effect it's going to have on running older dungeons in a game without a LFD) matter, WvW is honest to goodness the least. WvW will be fine. Come down off the ledge.
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Reply #75 on: November 14, 2012, 03:23:27 PM

They didn't need to lower door hit points when we were all level 20 because it was a temporary state, not the new normal. Did you try doing sieges in the first few days? It was godawful trying to get through doors and nobody could afford siege weapons. If that state had continued permanently, yes, they would have had to change the numbers. This moves the bar in the other direction and will, unlike the level 20 days, be the new normal. It only will get worse over time. It isn't insane at all.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
kildorn
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Reply #76 on: November 14, 2012, 03:25:14 PM

They always balanced WvW for 80s with exotics. That we DPS'd slow at 20 doesn't matter, because the stuff was tested and scaled for the predictable and easy to hit top end at release.

I'm saying that if you increase that number, you need to rebalance/rescale. This seems.. entirely logical and not at all controversial to me?

If microwaves suddenly started cooking far hotter, we'd need to rewrite microwave instructions and reclassify what is microwave safe as well. Things are tested to the metrics and limits available at the time. If these things change, your tests must change and the product must also probably change.

When keep lords and doors were balanced, 1 player was expected to deal ~X dps. He now deals X+10% DPS. To retain balance, the lord and door need 10% more health, and probably higher damage output, same with siege (if players now have 10% higher health or mitigation, siege needs to hit 10% harder to have the same impact)

This really is the #1 issue the new gear has. It's not old dungeons which already had wonky gearing issues if you ran them pre/post level 65 or so when you started getting three stat gear, it's that WvW is clearly and painfully balanced around certain pieces of information like how long does it take for a door to go down given N number of players. Nobody cares if random AC boss goes down 10% faster. A keep door going down 10% faster is 10% less time for the defense to respond to an attack however.
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Reply #77 on: November 14, 2012, 03:37:27 PM

Still following this, even though I still have yet to step foot in the game  why so serious?

So one of the devs came down from the high tower and posted this:

Our Studio Design Director Chris Whiteside just posted this:

ďIíd like to respond to concerns players have raised about ascended items. Please keep in mind that weíre releasing this as one portion of a massive November update that introduces and improves many aspects of challenge, progression, and rewards. With this and upcoming updates, we view ourselves as introducing large amounts of content with supporting systems and features, akin to an expansion pack, building on Guild Wars 2 through a series of live releases. So itís important for us to be able to add an expansion packís worth of progression and rewards to support that content.

Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill. Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two. We will slowly add the remaining ascended gear items and legendary items in future updates to allow people time to acquire them as we add exciting new content that deserves exciting rewards. We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.

Ascended and infusion rewards will be available in both PvE and WvW over time, and be made available through all sorts of content around the world including existing content. PvP will remain unaffected to ensure our intended PvP balance going forward. We are also working on other reward and progression systems for the game that tie into current and new content and features. As you know we care very much about your support and opinion and are listening intently to what you say.

Finally we look forward to hearing your thoughts on the upcoming content, and we will ensure we share our thoughts with you on the experiences we share in the Lost Shores."
Chris Whiteside Ė Studio Design Director

From what I'm understanding as an outsider looking in, it seems that this new gear does actually fall in between exotic and legendary.  Is the angst due to the fear that those that can barely cut obtaining exotic will be further segregated from being viable in WvW because those that CAN obtain exotic and CAN obtain this new gear (but still can't get their hands on legendary) will be more powerful?

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Modern Angel
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Reply #78 on: November 14, 2012, 03:38:21 PM

No, because we don't know in any real fashion how stats interact with DPS at all. The notion that everyone has the ability to do +10% DPS because of gear we haven't even seen based on theorycrafting that we don't actually know is what I'm saying is most nuts. Like, seriously, show me concrete numbers which point to X stats equaling Y extra DPS on Z abilities but not N abilities, which are affected at a different rate due to different coefficients. Games are numbers, yes, but you don't get to point to numbers in WvW balancing as the game exists now while also using plucked from thin air numbers like +10% DPS (or +8% stats, earlier). If those numbers don't exist for public consumption, maybe everyone should stop freaking out?

I'm absolutely not ruling out the possibility that this ends up being a horribly balanced, game-killing monstrosity; I've seen it happen. I'm certainly not saying that them adding this is automatically a good thing, particularly in light of their promises and it only being three months out. I am saying calm down and if you want to cite numbers, cite actual numbers for me in order to sway the conversation in a rational manner.
tazelbain
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Reply #79 on: November 14, 2012, 04:15:48 PM

Good luck with we don't have the numbers defense.  Do you even play this game?  Stats are huge.  Exotics +13% advantage over rares.  So +8% ascended is substantial.

Doesn't matter. I don't like gear grinds. They changed their mind about gear grinds and so have I about playing GW2. We know were this bullshit goes.

But its probably a good business move.  Suckers and money and all that.

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Ingmar
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Reply #80 on: November 14, 2012, 04:22:23 PM

If I thought the PVE in this game was anything but rudimentary, I'd be bothered a lot less; I enjoy gear progression in PVE. But at this point the only reason I really intended to keep playing for WvW, and hearing this after spending a lot of time and effort and resources getting my exotic suit all set and transmuted etc., just killed my interest.

They can still fix it very easily by just capping WvW stats at exotic level, but the "we intend to make ascended gear available through WvW!" line doesn't give me hope that they will.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Modern Angel
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Reply #81 on: November 14, 2012, 04:55:21 PM

Good luck with we don't have the numbers defense.  Do you even play this game?  Stats are huge.  Exotics +13% advantage over rares.  So +8% ascended is substantial.

Doesn't matter. I don't like gear grinds. They changed their mind about gear grinds and so have I about playing GW2. We know were this bullshit goes.

But its probably a good business move.  Suckers and money and all that.

That's not what I asked. I said "GIVE ME NUMBERS FOR HOW STATS INTERACT WITH RAW DAMAGE OUTPUT". That is what matters and, incidentally, that is what's being referenced. I'm trying to be constructive here and I'm absolutely able to be convinced this is a disaster. But going HEY OH SHIT +8% IN STATS OH GOD NO for the one piece of gear shown which isn't even slotted yet (seriously, what are some of the set bonuses? I forget... +50 Toughness? +50 Power? That matters!) without any fucking context about what that means at all is dumb. Or, tl;dr +X% STATS DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY TRANSLATE INTO +X% DAMAGE SO SETTLE DOWN.

Until I see actual numbers on this shit I'm going to assume it's f13 being f13 and freaking out in advance of a grand, self-indulgent lashing of "elitism" and "catasses ruining this perfectly nice game".

Numbers. Coefficients. Cast times and how they interact with those things. Diminishing returns. Give them to me if you're going to freak out. Prove your case.
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Reply #82 on: November 14, 2012, 04:56:58 PM

Yeah we're the ones who need to calm down.  tongue

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Modern Angel
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Reply #83 on: November 14, 2012, 04:58:25 PM

I've been totally mellow! Tazelbain's post just rubbed me the wrong way.

I'm not being flip or trying to back anyone into a corner. I'm being dead serious: I want to see numbers on this, particularly if we're making up numbers and referencing them as gospel. I don't think that's unreasonable. I've also been here long enough to have seen this movie before.
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Reply #84 on: November 14, 2012, 05:00:57 PM

It's easy enough to demonstrate without having to resort to figuring out the effects of stats on DPS. Just look at how vitality scales, and assume that DPS and the more hidden survivability stats scale in the same way. An 8% or 13% increase in vitality is significant; it is safe to assume that it will be significant for the other stats as well.

EDIT: And actually even if it isn't, just scaling health by a bunch for a segment of the population will be pretty harmful.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Modern Angel
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Reply #85 on: November 14, 2012, 05:14:37 PM

It's easy enough to demonstrate without having to resort to figuring out the effects of stats on DPS. Just look at how vitality scales, and assume that DPS and the more hidden survivability stats scale in the same way. An 8% or 13% increase in vitality is significant; it is safe to assume that it will be significant for the other stats as well.

EDIT: And actually even if it isn't, just scaling health by a bunch for a segment of the population will be pretty harmful.

It's certainly not going to be non-zero, but damage almost never works on a linear 1 for 1 scale in MMOs. There are always a whole bunch of moving parts which adjust it. And, again, I can't stress enough that no set bonuses are going to be huge, even if they do expand it outward to all gear slots.
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Reply #86 on: November 14, 2012, 05:17:03 PM

From what I'm understanding as an outsider looking in, it seems that this new gear does actually fall in between exotic and legendary.  Is the angst due to the fear that those that can barely cut obtaining exotic will be further segregated from being viable in WvW because those that CAN obtain exotic and CAN obtain this new gear (but still can't get their hands on legendary) will be more powerful?

Actually the only legendaries in the game are weapons, and they have exactly the same stats as exotics right now. They are saying that legendaries will "always" have the best stats which means they will be upgraded once ascended weapons become available (not with this patch nor is there any given timetable for that).

So the angst is for ArenaNet seeming to go back on their word (and principles) that there would not be any gear progression statwise by introducing new ascended eq that is better than the current exotics even if the difference seems small so far (once you start down the road of stat progression...)

edit: 2 quotes from about 3 months ago by ArenaNet to clarify their principles (or what they were):
"Here's what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can't realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don't make grindy games -- we leave the grind to other MMOs."
-Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you donít need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but itís not required to play the game. We donít need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who donít are just as powerful and get to have fun too.Ē
Ė Colin Johanson
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 05:27:37 PM by satael »
Ingmar
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Reply #87 on: November 14, 2012, 05:20:34 PM

It's easy enough to demonstrate without having to resort to figuring out the effects of stats on DPS. Just look at how vitality scales, and assume that DPS and the more hidden survivability stats scale in the same way. An 8% or 13% increase in vitality is significant; it is safe to assume that it will be significant for the other stats as well.

EDIT: And actually even if it isn't, just scaling health by a bunch for a segment of the population will be pretty harmful.

It's certainly not going to be non-zero, but damage almost never works on a linear 1 for 1 scale in MMOs. There are always a whole bunch of moving parts which adjust it. And, again, I can't stress enough that no set bonuses are going to be huge, even if they do expand it outward to all gear slots.

We don't know what the actual infusions are going to carry with them in terms of additional stats or bonuses. There's no particular reason to believe there won't be something equivalent in power to set bonuses on them.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Modern Angel
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Reply #88 on: November 14, 2012, 05:45:13 PM

Except that if they're working from a budget on each item (they are) then the infusion to prevent Agony killing you is going to take some part of it, right? And the slots are very specifically for infusion items, if you check, and a narrow one at that (Defensive, we know, but then maybe Offensive and Support?).
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Reply #89 on: November 14, 2012, 05:58:14 PM

In closed beta, the legendaries had higher stats, but they dropped those down to be in line with exotics after complaints from wvwer's.  Legendaries will only ever be top-tier, pretty skins.

As long as they offer a way for you to earn Ascended level things through wvw, what does it matter if they creep?  I don't see how someone having 10 more power than you with this patch from a ring/back slot items will shatter wvw and force ragequits.  They'll balance it out, just not this very second.  I'm not going to halt my wvw UNTIL I make sure I'm geared with ascended because otherwise I might get slaughtered.  Hell, most of the real hardcore wvwer's bring up their characters in wvw and AREN'T wearing bleeding edge gear and aren't crying their eyes out over the patch.  They're just wvw'ing and enjoying the game.
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Reply #90 on: November 14, 2012, 05:58:26 PM

I don't see any particular reason why the "radiance" part of the infusion has to be a budgeted stat like the others, actually. We'll have to wait and see on that.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Venkman
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Reply #91 on: November 14, 2012, 06:08:04 PM

Wow. This page looks exactly like the last page.  awesome, for real
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Reply #92 on: November 14, 2012, 06:49:36 PM

As long as they offer a way for you to earn Ascended level things through wvw, what does it matter if they creep?  

Cause badges in WvW have frustratingly shitty drop rates unless you play WvW pretty hardcore.
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Reply #93 on: November 14, 2012, 06:52:59 PM

Yeah I count myself lucky to get 2-3 badges in a session of WvW. You can get them reliably by doing the jumping puzzles, but I'm not there to do jumping puzzles. I've always kind of wondered why keep lords don't drop them.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
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Reply #94 on: November 14, 2012, 07:15:19 PM

What was the resistance stat on the lotro gear? Having a specific gear for specific dungeons as a cockock is not good design. I'm surprised arenanet is going this route. It didn't work well for lotro and I don't see it working well here.

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Reply #95 on: November 14, 2012, 07:23:58 PM

As long as they offer a way for you to earn Ascended level things through wvw, what does it matter if they creep?  

Power creep in WvW, even when you can get the better gear through WvW, sucks. It sucks because someone coming in brand new gets the experience of "HOLY FUCK I AM BEING RUN OVER CONSTANTLY" with a long, long grind staring them in the face, and most people will just go "actually, fuck that" and do something else, which is less fun for EVERYONE. And anything I've read from them about it indicates to me they have no idea what a can of worms they're opening.

I know ArenaNet loves its grinds, but those grinds instantly stop being acceptable when they start to actually affect WvW in a meaningful way.

God Save the Horn Players
kildorn
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Reply #96 on: November 14, 2012, 07:34:46 PM

No, because we don't know in any real fashion how stats interact with DPS at all. The notion that everyone has the ability to do +10% DPS because of gear we haven't even seen based on theorycrafting that we don't actually know is what I'm saying is most nuts. Like, seriously, show me concrete numbers which point to X stats equaling Y extra DPS on Z abilities but not N abilities, which are affected at a different rate due to different coefficients. Games are numbers, yes, but you don't get to point to numbers in WvW balancing as the game exists now while also using plucked from thin air numbers like +10% DPS (or +8% stats, earlier). If those numbers don't exist for public consumption, maybe everyone should stop freaking out?

I'm absolutely not ruling out the possibility that this ends up being a horribly balanced, game-killing monstrosity; I've seen it happen. I'm certainly not saying that them adding this is automatically a good thing, particularly in light of their promises and it only being three months out. I am saying calm down and if you want to cite numbers, cite actual numbers for me in order to sway the conversation in a rational manner.

"Like, seriously, show me concrete numbers which point to X stats equaling Y extra DPS on Z abilities but not N abilities" --Math is still being done, but it does exist!

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=coefficient&go=Go

With a bit of effort I could get you the damage info for specific skills, but to give you an idea: going from 80 rare to 80 exotic on my Ele's dagger ups his basic fire autoattack from 192 -> 220. Which is a pretty significant jump.

"If those numbers don't exist for public consumption, maybe everyone should stop freaking out?"

Those numbers do exist for public consumption. We have the in game numbers, AND we have the numbers for Ascended items in comparison from the blog post with screenshot. So we know what the jump will be, and can extrapolate from there. Basically, in a solve for X equation we have all required bits to solve for X.

The problem with the new gear is that it's a tier higher than what is in the game, so player power levels are increasing. Hence the complaint from WvW people. If Ascended was equal in power to existing Exotics and simply had a new slot that only functioned in the new progression dungeons? No harm no foul. The entire complaint ignores infusion entirely and focuses on raw player power increasing, which is a bad thing in WvW.

Note: DAOC players will remember the shitfit we threw over MLs and leveling your pants. Same idea! Adding some grind to make it take longer to be competitive in WvW is a bad thing, full stop.
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Reply #97 on: November 14, 2012, 08:47:20 PM

Yeah I count myself lucky to get 2-3 badges in a session of WvW. You can get them reliably by doing the jumping puzzles, but I'm not there to do jumping puzzles. I've always kind of wondered why keep lords don't drop them.

They do drop. It's just random.
I've killed Supply Camp Supervisor and pick up badges off loot bags before.

But yeah, Ascended through badges is a good joke.
You need to play like an unemployed just to afford a full set of armor through badges.

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Reply #98 on: November 14, 2012, 08:49:49 PM

I know there's no stat difference between AC and Arah, it just serves to underline that some people will be elitist assholes about gear even if it doesn't have stats. Same idea with having to link raid achievements to get in PUGs in WOW. Only now with the ascended gear such elitism will be a lot more wide-spread...

e: I think some of this could apply to GW1 too, actually. Most PVP groups for TA/AB/etc only accepted pugs that had a high pvp rank already. I'm not sure if you needed to have a certain grind-title to get in the high-end elite dungeon runs like DOA or Underworld, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.

I would like to troll some ppl someday, maybe by transmuting a noob gear with a lvl 80 exotic and still outperform these assholes in dungeons.

Colonel Sanders is back in my wallet
Modern Angel
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Reply #99 on: November 14, 2012, 08:59:19 PM

"Like, seriously, show me concrete numbers which point to X stats equaling Y extra DPS on Z abilities but not N abilities" --Math is still being done, but it does exist!

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=coefficient&go=Go

Thank you for this!
Phred
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Reply #100 on: November 15, 2012, 02:12:24 AM


I've seen people ask for level 80 only, or no glass cannons (which is funny, since that's basically saying "DPS spot filled" but no one wants to use the term DPS) - but having specific dungeon gear is  swamp poop.


When I see ppl asking for this in map chat my first impulse is to reply to map chat that they must suck to need to pad the group that much.

Plus, I am really looking forward to a level 80 zone that isn't full of stupid lazy-design Fallen.

Oh god please. I fucking hate risen.

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Reply #101 on: November 15, 2012, 02:14:56 AM

Yea -- putting aside the gear angst, I'm really looking forward to this - especially since I get the idea that they'll be pumping out free dungeons / zones regularly. Maybe I'll get some mileage out of the Ele weapons I'm not too familiar with, too. (read: everything that's not the staff  awesome, for real)

Lantyssa
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Reply #102 on: November 15, 2012, 08:08:26 AM

WvW already has scaling.  Why not just cap the stats based on a ratio of your unmodified amount, and then it doesn't matter if you're level 2 or 80 in full Ascended...

People are freaking over nothing.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
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Reply #103 on: November 15, 2012, 09:21:56 AM


Plus, I am really looking forward to a level 80 zone that isn't full of stupid lazy-design Fallen.

Oh god please. I fucking hate risen.



Goddamit, I knew when I typed Fallen that was wrong. I HATE HATE HATE that the level 80 zones are nothing but fast pop Risen.

Yeah I count myself lucky to get 2-3 badges in a session of WvW. You can get them reliably by doing the jumping puzzles, but I'm not there to do jumping puzzles. I've always kind of wondered why keep lords don't drop them.

Especially considering the chest after the stupid Grub gives some.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 09:25:58 AM by murdoc »

Have you tried the internet? It's made out of millions of people missing the point of everything and then getting angry about it
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Reply #104 on: November 15, 2012, 10:49:48 AM

Yea -- putting aside the gear angst, I'm really looking forward to this - especially since I get the idea that they'll be pumping out free dungeons / zones regularly. Maybe I'll get some mileage out of the Ele weapons I'm not too familiar with, too. (read: everything that's not the staff  awesome, for real)

If you aren't using daggers, you're not living. Best set ever.

The only depressing weapon Eles have is that focus offhand adds Meh durability at the cost of pretty much all your offensive power.
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